Miles Trial Day 17 - Court transcript and translation 郭文贵纽约南区法院庭审记录中文翻译

Original Court Transcript(原始庭审记录)

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

------------------------------x

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

v. 23 Cr. 118 (AT)

MILES GUO,

Defendant. Trial

------------------------------x

New York, N.Y.

June 14, 2024

9:00 a.m.

Before:

HON. ANALISA TORRES,

District Judge

-and a Jury-

APPEARANCES

DAMIAN WILLIAMS

United States Attorney for the

Southern District of New York

BY: MICAH F. FERGENSON

RYAN B. FINKEL

JUSTIN HORTON

JULIANA N. MURRAY

Assistant United States Attorneys

SABRINA P. SHROFF

Attorney for Defendant

PRYOR CASHMAN LLP

Attorneys for Defendant

BY: SIDHARDHA KAMARAJU

MATTHEW BARKAN

ALSTON & BIRD LLP

Attorneys for Defendant

BY: E. SCOTT SCHIRICK

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ALSO PRESENT:

Isabel Loftus, Paralegal Specialist, USAO

Ruben Montilla, Defense Paralegal

Tuo Huang, Interpreter (Mandarin)

Shi Feng, Interpreter (Mandarin)

Yu Mark Tang, Interpreter (Mandarin)

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(Trial resumed; jury not present)

THE COURT: Good morning. Make your appearances,

please.

MS. MURRAY: Good morning, your Honor. Juliana

Murray, Ryan Finkel and Justin Horton on behalf of the United

States. We're joined by paralegal specialist Isabel Loftus.

MR. BARKAN: Good morning, your Honor. Matthew Barkan

with defendant Miles Guo and joining us shortly will be

Ms. Shroff and Mr. Schirick.

THE COURT: Please be seated. Is there anything that

anyone would like to raise at this time?

MR. FINKEL: Not so much an issue, just want to note

for the Court in connection with what was discussed yesterday

morning. At about 3:00 yesterday we sent the defense a table

of contents that we created for that production, as I

understand it, listing each of the documents and what they

purported to be. We thought that would be helpful for them.

THE COURT: I'd like you to speak into the microphone.

You say that you made a table of contents.

MR. FINKEL: Yes, our team created a table of contents

for that production for Mercantile, which I understand listed

each of the documents that were in that production, and what

those documents purported to be. Based on their title, for

example, that sort of thing. We thought that would be helpful,

and also what the Court requested. I just want to note that we

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did that. That's all.

MS. SHROFF: Nothing from the defense, your Honor.

Good morning.

THE COURT: So you'll have the witness back on the

stand at 9:29.

(Recess)

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(Jury not present)

THE COURT: Just now after I left the bench, I

received a letter from the defense. I'll hear you on that.

MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, just as the letter said, we

understand the Court is ruled about the longer day. We just

ask that the government be held to its order of witnesses as

that would help us given the other constraints that we have

detailed in the letter.

THE COURT: I'll hear from the government.

MR. FINKEL: So, your Honor, we have always endeavored

to provide a good faith estimate in order of our witnesses.

Our witnesses are people. Many of whom are civilians. Some of

who have counsel. Some of whom are traveling. There are

logistical issues that are sometimes difficult to work out.

What I can certainly tell the Court is the order that we

provide witnesses in is the order we intend to call them in,

but sometimes things happen. So to the extent things have

changed, we deal with it. That happens at trials, and I think

defense counsel knows that. We can certainly provide the

defense, as we have been, our order for the upcoming, which we

will endeavor to meet. And to the extent something happens,

we'll communicate that to the defense in realtime.

And what I can tell the Court is, I've had a number of

conversations with members of the defense team, none of whom

are here right now, but with other members of the defense team

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about these scheduling issues. And we've had good

conversations about them. So we'll continue to do that, and

we'll continue to provide exhibits in advance to help the

defense and to make this trial more efficient. We're certainly

doing all that we can to be efficient and forthcoming with the

defense as possible.

MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, that has not been our

experience. It is because we've had trouble that one of the

members of the defense team spoke to a supervisor at the U.S.

Attorney's office. We continue to have difficulty adjusting to

the schedule. Whether it's in good faith or bad faith, the

problem is, we're still left in a position where we have to

adjust. So, for example, yesterday's witnesses that are going

to spill over into today required two lawyers to not be in

court with the client so they could step out and prepare. That

would not be optimal for anyone. This is happened quite a bit

throughout the trial. And, of course, it's a given that

witnesses are people, that's why they're witnesses. But the

problem is, we're also people on the defense side. We also

have to adjust.

And the biggest juggle we have to make with the

situation is schlepping back and forth from MDC, which by the

way has been in consistent lockdown. The other night I went at

5:00 after the 3:00 trial day, it was a holy mess over there.

I'm told again that there was a delay. They've changed the

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count time now, so there are new count times at MDC. So

rejiggering of witnesses has like a complete domino effect on

the defense team. That is -- I haven't finished speaking,

Mr. Finkel. I can't see the judge. Thank you.

So whether or not the government is endeavoring,

that's not what I'm worried about. What I'm worried about is

our ability to move around, then pull all of the exhibits, the

exhibits are dripping in at the very last second. Yesterday's

witnesses, the exhibits were being pulled I believe at 1:30 in

the morning. So there is no issue of whether or not this is

good faith or bad faith. This is where we are. So to the

extent the government can give us their witness list earlier

than noon on Saturday, that would great. If they could stick

to it, that would be even better. And if we really can't cope,

your Honor, we'll come back to the Court.

MR. FINKEL: Can I respond to just a few points, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FINKEL: First -- and I hate to say this, but now

I have to because of what Ms. Shroff just raised. But there

have been a number of occasions where members of the -- the

four of us -- have approach Ms. Shroff in particular to discuss

logistical issues, and have been told in no uncertain terms,

get away from me. That's a direct quote. Okay. So the

government has tried to address these issues with Ms. Shroff in

particular, and that's what we've been told. Thankfully other

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members of the defense team have not had that response. And

we've had good communication with other members of the defense

team, but I want the Court to know that just in light of what

Ms. Shroff said.

Also, with respect to Ms. Wilson, I think we provided

her as a possible witness on May 26, including her exhibits

that we intended to introduce. Because cross went long for

other witnesses, she got pushed to where she is now. The

changes in the witness order that happened this week are as

follows: On Sunday -- and we told the Court about this -- we

determined that we weren't going to call Paolo Sozy. We wanted

to streamline our case, so we took him off the calendar.

That's what happened. There was then some flip flopping

between whether it'd Kim Espinoza or Jamie Wilson. We thought

it would be Kim Espinoza first. Then we thought it would be

Jamie Wilson. The reasons why had to do with a family member

who was sick of Ms. Wilson's, and then Ms. Espinoza's travel

schedule. So those got flip flopped back and forth.

We communicated that as best we could with the

defense, and have always endeavored to do so. What's going to

happen tonight, your Honor, and what we do every Friday after

the weekends is the four of us, more than the four of us, the

case agents and the paralegals, we all go back to 26 Fed. We

discuss what happened this week. We discuss who we can call

next week, and we try to think about the longer term plan with

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respect to the trial; who our witnesses will be, whether

they're available, who we've been in touch with recently, that

takes time. We will then go back, look at a calendar, and plot

out the witnesses that we think and guess how long the cross

will be. That's what we do. We then reach out to counsel or

witnesses to make sure that the dates that we think would be

best for the jury frankly in hearing the evidence will work for

people's schedules.

Sometimes we don't learn about scheduling difficulties

until after Saturday, right, because we've been telling the

defense by Saturday at noon what our witness order will be; but

things happen because there are people involved. So I have no

problem, your Honor, and the government has no problem

communicating to the defense. If we can do it tonight, we'll

do it tonight, what we anticipate our order of the witnesses

will be, and doing everything we can to stick to that order.

And we will endeavor to do that. To the extent there are any

issues that get raised because of scheduling issues or what

have you, we will tell the defense in realtime. There's no

problem with that.

THE COURT: So you expect that you will be able to get

them witness list tonight?

MR. FINKEL: We can do that. The only caveat I'd

raise is we might not be able to be in touch with all of the

witness and/or their counsel, and so that could create some

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sort of change. So, yes, we can get them tonight the witness

list we anticipate, but I just want to be completely

forthcoming with the Court, sometimes there are changes as a

result of things outside of our control.

THE COURT: It is typical that the order of witnesses

may change during a trial. This is extremely common. However,

if it gets to the point where defense counsel cannot represent

their client effectively, they may ask for an adjournment,

which I would consider granting if I felt that there was a

basis for that.

MR. FINKEL: I understand that, your Honor. Just to

be completely clear, there's no gamesmanship here. This is

about scheduling difficulties and trying to fill the days

appropriately given what we don't know, and it's sometimes been

a black box in terms of how long cross will be. But we hear

your Honor, and we have been very mindful, your Honor, of what

your Honor told us in the robing room at the beginning of this

trial. And we think about that all the time, and I can tell

this Court that the four of us talk about that a lot. And so

what we'll do tonight -- we'll try to do it by nine. It might

take a little longer -- is provide a list in order of what we

expect the order to be. And what I'll tell your Honor is to

the extent there are changes, we will communicate that to the

defense in realtime, including the reason why we're changing

it, whether it's scheduling or what have you.

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THE COURT: Ms. Shroff, is it true that you said get

away from me?

MS. SHROFF: I did, your Honor. My past experience

with Mr. Finkel on a prior trial before this one has led me to

tell him several times that I would not be the point person for

him, and that he should speak to some other member of the team.

With Mr. Finkel, I have had exactly this issue in a prior

trial, and I do not want to get into it before this Court. But

here's the most important thing. I offered Mr. Finkel three

other lawyers, and I offer Mr. Finkel email. I stand by that

because I have repeatedly told Mr. Finkel that I am

uncomfortable proceeding to talk to him off the record. Given

my past experience with him on another trial, that was my

position, your Honor. I'm telling the Court candidly.

So I've had this difficulty before, but there are

three other members of the team who have bourne out these

conversations that are long, protracted, and which still have

led our team to go to the prosecutors' office's supervisor

because we're in the same conundrum as when we started this

trial. Mulan is a perfect example, your Honor. The government

said that we should come in earlier and a day longer because

they thought that we were playing a game with her schedule.

Mulan ended earlier, and then they called two other witnesses

to back it up. When Mulan was called out of order, it was a

strain on us. We still came early, and we still stayed late.

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So, yes, my historical experience with Mr. Finkel has led me to

ask him to talk to other members of the team.

THE COURT: Well, you might make that request, but it

is not proper for you simply to say, I will not speak to a

member of the prosecution team, or that he cannot speak to you.

It's simply improper professionally, and so I'm directing that

you may ask that he not address you, but you cannot tell him

that you will not engage at all.

MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, I do not engage with

Mr. Finkel off the record because it has been my historical

experience that it is not positive for my client. That said, I

have offered him every other member of the defense team and

email correspondence. That way nobody can say, Ms. Shroff said

X, and I said Y. It's the best way to proceed because it shows

clear communication and transparency. But I will take your

Court's order as every order this Court issues and proceed

accordingly. But I do note again, my experience with Mulan,

and I note here again, that because the entire team had the

same difficulty, we escalated the matter to a supervisor. The

problem remained as of yesterday. I don't need to belabor

this. I'm happy to take the Court's instruction and move

forward.

MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, I'm sorry, but I have to

respond to some of that. I have to. And now this is before

your Honor, and I'm sorry that it is. It's not just me. It's

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all four of us. Every member of the prosecution team

Ms. Shroff has expressed this, get away from me attitude, which

has not been productive, and it's been contrary to what the

Court ordered us to do in the robing room two weeks ago.

And, your Honor, with respect to the Ya Li issue that

Ms. Shroff raised, the witness prior -- and now we have to get

into this -- the witness prior was Ms. Jenny Li. There were

problems with the translation. There was an issue in which

Ms. Shroff was reviewing the transcript to assess whether there

were translation issues. I made some suggestions about how to

make that more efficient. Ms. Shroff made it clear to me in

words and in her affect essentially that she was intentionally

delaying this because she said -- the quote was essentially, Is

the government worried because it has scheduling issues with

its witness, in sum and substance, which was delivered in a

sarcastic tone. And that's why we had that reaction about what

was going on.

And all this, your Honor, should not before the Court.

It's contrary to what happened in the robing room. So the

bottom line is this -- and I want to say this on behalf of this

table, and I think on behalf of the table behind us, is the

government is going to do whatever it can to litigate this case

in a professional, efficient manner, including by communicating

in realtime with the defense. Indeed, when we realized the

issue with the production, one of the first things we did is

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call a member of the defense team to tell them about this, and

we did that. So we're going to continue to do that, and we're

going to continue to work to make sure this trial is efficient

for your Honor and for the members of the jury.

MS. SHROFF: Repeatedly the government has said things

to this Court implying that we're acting in bad faith. An off

the cuff comment to opposing counsel does not mean there's any

gamesmanship on this part. We did not delay a cross --

THE COURT: Well, but saying, don't talk to me, that

is an improper way of dealing with your adversary. It's simply

not acceptable.

MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, there are three other people

on this team. The reason I ended communication with Mr. Finkel

is it wasn't productive for my team or my client.

THE COURT: Okay. So I want you to understand that

you must engage. You cannot simply turn your back.

MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, repeatedly we have endeavored

to give the government a point person on our team. So one

person talks to one person. There is no back and forth

between, well, I told Mr. Barkan this, or I told Mr. Shroff

this. It is an efficient way to proceed.

THE COURT: Ms. Shroff, I've heard enough. What I've

said is that you can make a request that you not be addressed,

but you cannot insist on it. And if it is more efficient for

the prosecution team to speak with others, that's fine, but you

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simply cannot take the position that you're not going to engage

the prosecution team. It's simply not acceptable.

MS. SHROFF: That's fine, your Honor. I will take the

Court's statement and move forward accordingly. But the record

should be clear here, the reason this matter was escalated is

because not one of the people on the defense team was able to

fulfill their obligation to the client by talking to the

government's team on the table ahead of me. It is for that

particular reason that we wrote to the supervisor, that we

spoke to the supervisor, and we sent a letter to the Court. To

shift this onto me is fine.

THE COURT: I've heard enough, Ms. Shroff. I'm going

to take a moment, and then we'll start. If you'll have the

witness, please, brought to the stand.

(Recess)

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(Jury not present)

THE COURT: Please have the jurors brought in.

THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.

(Jury present)

THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning, jurors.

We're starting five minutes late. I'm sorry about that. It's

nobody's fault. I do try to stay on time. As for next week,

we will start at 9:30. We'll have a break between 11:30 and

12, and then another break between 2:30 and 3:00. We'll stop

at five. Remember, you're still under oath, and you may

continue the inquiry.

MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.

JAMIE WILSON, resumed.

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED

BY MS. MURRAY:

Q. Ms. Loftus, can we please publish Government Exhibit BOP-1.

Good morning, Ms. Wilson.

A. Good morning.

Q. When we left off yesterday we were speaking about the

G/Clubs account at Bank of Princeton.

If we could go, Ms. Loftus, to page 26.

Ms. Wilson, what is this document?

A. This is a QualiFile or check systems report.

Q. If we can go to the next page, please, Ms. Loftus.

Ms. Wilson, what person or entity did Bank of

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Princeton run a QualiFile check for, for the G/Clubs account?

A. For G/Club and the signers on the account. This one in

particular is for one of the signers Yvette Wang.

Q. And, Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom in on the table on the

top, please.

Ms. Wilson, how many different QualiFile responses did

Bank of Princeton get back for Yanping Wang or Yvette Wang?

A. Nine.

Q. What are the various different financial institutions that

had QualiFile responses for Yvette Wang?

A. Citibank, Capital One, First Republic Bank, Santander Bank,

NexBank, Signature Bank and the Bank of Princeton.

Q. Of those nine inquiries, is it correct that seven of them

were between the period of June 2020 and October 2020?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you remind us what it means for a QualiFile

response to come back?

What action it reflects?

A. This means that an account was opened at that financial

institution, so they ran the customer through tech systems.

Q. And how, if at all, does the number of QualiFile responses

for this particular signer Yvette Wang factor into your BSA

analysis of the G/Club account?

A. This would make it a little more risky for our institution

knowing that somebody opened multiple accounts within a short

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period of time at multiple different banks.

Q. Why, if at all, would that make it a riskier customer?

A. Because normally when you have an individual or entity,

they maintain banks at a few locations, maybe two or three

different banks, not seven or eight different banks.

Q. Did there come a time when the G/Club account was in fact

opened at Bank of Princeton?

A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, was your involvement with the G/Club

account after it was opened?

A. When it was opened, just like any other account, we review

all of the opening documents, and we monitor the account. Some

accounts are risk high, so we may monitor them a little more

frequently than the low risk account.

Q. And focusing on the G/Club account, how, if at all, did you

monitor that account in the course of your work as a BSA

officer?

A. We reviewed all the opening documents to include the

business documents, the personal documents. We reviewed the

money that came into the account when it was opened.

Q. What type of business was G/Club?

A. It was an international luxury living company.

Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could go to page 23 of this exhibit,

please.

Ms. Wilson, what type of document is this?

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A. This is a certificate of formation.

Q. Is this one of the documents that was submitted in

connection with the account opening?

A. Yes.

Q. If we could zoom in on article 3 in the middle of the page

please, Ms. Loftus.

Ms. Wilson, this section is entitled Article 3, Nature

of Business. Can you please read the bolded text of what

G/Club purports to be in this corporate document?

A. Membership concierge service with exclusive offers and

discounts for luxury hotels and retailers for high net worth

individuals from the Asian market. The company may also engage

in any other activities authorized by the laws of the

government of Puerto Rico.

Q. Thank you. Ms. Wilson, in the course of your BSA analysis,

what open source, if any, did you do into G/Club?

A. We did some background research just to Google the business

itself to see what type of business it was, what type of luxury

services that it offered.

THE COURT: Would you remind the jurors what BSA

stands for?

THE WITNESS: Yes. BSA is the Bank Secrecy Act. And

under the Bank Secrecy Act, we monitor accounts for money

laundering and terrorist financing.

Q. What, if anything, were the results of your research, your

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open source research into G/Clubs?

A. It looked like a start-up company. The website really

hadn't been developed too much, but we found that it wasn't

just G/Club. They where linked to other different types of

luxury like clothing, and they had their own Bitcoin or

cryptocurrency it look like they were generating, so other

different luxury companies within G/Club. And that's only

found the link to the owner potentially being Miles Guo.

Q. Who is Miles Guo?

A. Miles Guo, when we did research, had a lot of negative news

search on that he had been exiled from China, just different

money laundering, different types of negative news searches

that kind of raised a lot of red flags in our opinion.

Q. And what, if anything, did you find from your research

about Miles Guo's connection to G/Clubs, the company that was

seeking to open an account?

A. He was the owner of that business or the creator for that

business.

Q. How, if at all, did Miles Guo's association with G/Clubs

factor into your BSA analysis?

A. At that time it was a risk that we didn't want to keep the

accounts at our institution, so we chose to close any accounts

linked to that entity.

Q. What, if anything, do you recall about the activity in the

G/Clubs account before Bank of Princeton made the decision to

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close it?

A. For G/Club they brought in -- I want to say it was 10 or

$15 million into the bank. And before they could spend the

money, we closed the account out to send it out.

Q. Ms. Loftus, can we publish Government Exhibit BOP-3.

Ms. Wilson, what type of document is this?

A. That's a bank statement.

Q. For what entity?

A. For G/Club Operations, LLC.

Q. And looking at the top left there, if we could zoom in on

that please, Ms. Loftus.

It indicates G/Club Operations LLC, what is listed

below that?

A. Memberships 590 Madison Avenue, Floor 21, New York, New

York 10022-2545.

Q. And this is a statement for the period ending November 30,

2020?

MR. BARKAN: Objection. She's testifying.

Q. What is the statement date please, Ms. Wilson?

A. The statement ending in 11/30/2020.

Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom in on the bottom portion which

is the account activity here.

Ms. Wilson, what was the beginning balance as

reflected on this statement for the G/Clubs memberships

account?

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A. Negative five dollars.

Q. And on what date?

A. 10/31/2020.

Q. How many credits were there during this one-month period?

A. Seven credits.

Q. For what dollar amount?

A. $13,500,005.

Q. If can you just look through those. There are three on the

bottom. If you could read the date and the amount of those

credits on this account?

A. On 11/2/2020, there was a miscellaneous credit for $5. On

11/3/2020, there's an incoming wire from G/Club Operations, LLC

for 2 million, and on 11/3/2020, there's an incoming wire from

G/Club Operations for 3 million.

Q. Focusing on those bottom two incoming wires from G/Club

Operations, what, if anything, are you able to determine about

what accounts for G/Clubs those wires came from?

A. From this statement you could just tell that they came --

the money came from themselves. They're at another

institution.

Q. And there are numbers associated with each of those

incoming wires after the words "incoming wire," are those the

same numbers for each wire?

A. No, they're two separate wires.

Q. If we can go to the next page, please, Ms. Loftus, the

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third page. Thank you. And focus in again here on the top

portion, the remainder of the incoming wires.

For these additional four, Ms. Wilson, if you could

please read us the date of the incoming wire and the amount?

A. 11/4/2020 for 2 million; 11/4/2020 for 2 million; 11/6/2020

for 2.5 million; 11/13/2020 for 2 million.

Q. We can take out the zoom. Thank you.

Ms. Wilson, what, if anything, were you able to

determine about the source of the $13.5 million that came into

the G/Clubs account over the course of a few days in November

2020?

A. Just that they came from their accounts at other financial

institutions.

Q. You mentioned that the Bank of Princeton decided to close

G/Clubs and additional associated accounts; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. What were the additional accounts that were associated with

G/Clubs?

A. The additional accounts were the Greenwich and Lamp

Capital.

Q. At the time that G/Clubs was opening its account with Bank

of Princeton, what association, if any, had it disclosed to the

bank about an association with Lamp or Greenwich Land?

A. The same advisor was -- the way all three accounts were

brought to us was from Haitham Khaled and Stephen Lawandy, the

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same investment advisor for all three accounts for our

institution.

Q. How, if at all, did the association among these accounts

factor into your BSA analysis?

A. We found some red flags while. We were reviewing these

accounts and found the links with Miles Guo, when we looked

into Daniel Podhaskie, our research had noted that he was also

his lawyer. So the fact that all three accounts were brought

from the same investment advisor along with the links being

together from the same investment advisor and the ultimate

owner of G/Club versus the signer on the other two business

accounts, we chose to close all three accounts.

Q. Just to be clear, Ms. Wilson, you said that Daniel

Podhaskie was his lawyer, whose lawyer did you learn Daniel

Podhaskie was?

A. Miles Guo.

Q. When the Bank of Princeton determined that it was going to

close the accounts, how, if at all, did it convey that to the

account holders?

A. The head of our retail reached out to Haitham Khaled to let

him know that we were making a risk-base decision to close out

their accounts.

Q. How, if at all, did Haitham Khaled respond?

MR. BARKAN: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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Q. What response, if any, did the Bank of Princeton receive

from the account holders?

MR. BARKAN: Same objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When Bank of Princeton decided to close the accounts and

inform the account holders of that, were you involved in any

further communications regarding the account closures?

A. I saw the emails and were forwarded the emails that were

discussed between the head of our retail and the individuals

Haitham Khaled.

Q. And what, if anything, did you learn about the account

closure process from those emails?

MR. BARKAN: Same objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. MURRAY: May I have a moment, your Honor.

(Pause)

Q. Ms. Loftus, can we go to Government Exhibit BOP-1 again,

please, the bottom of the page.

There's a stamp at the bottom account closed.

Ms. Wilson, on what date did the Bank of Princeton close the

G/Clubs account?

A. November 25, 2020.

Q. If we can go, Ms. Loftus, to the next page I believe, and

on the bottom right here.

On what date had Bank of Princeton opened the G/Clubs

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account?

A. 10/30/200.

Q. So for approximately how long was that account opened at

the Bank of Princeton?

A. Approximately a month.

Q. And how much money had come into the account during that

one-month period?

A. Approximately almost $15 million.

MS. MURRAY: Nothing further, your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: Cross examination.

MR. BARKAN: Yes, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. BARKAN:

Q. Good morning, Ms. Wilson.

A. Good morning.

Q. You testified on direct about the G/Clubs account opening,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Could we pull up GX-BOP-1, please. We can publish that.

Ms. Murray showed this document to you on direct,

right?

A. Correct.

Q. These are the account opening documents for G/Clubs, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And Ms. Yvette Wang is the owner and signer; is that

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correct?

A. Yes, she's a signer on the account.

Q. Can we go to page two, please.

On the top left we see that the second signer is Alex

Hadjicharalambous, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Can we go to page 13, please.

And as asked by the Bank of Princeton, Ms. Wang

provided her passport information; isn't that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Can we go to page 14, please.

And Ms. Wang provided a copy of her credit card from

Santander; isn't that right?

A. Correct.

Q. Santander is a global bank, right?

A. Yes.

Q. It's FDIC insured, right?

A. To my understanding, yes.

Q. If we go to page 15.

If we look at the top left, we see it says United

States of America employment authorization; isn't that right?

A. Correct.

Q. So Ms. Wang provided proof that she was authorized to work

in the United States, right?

A. Correct.

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Q. Go to page 18, please.

And Mr. Hadjicharalambous provided his passport

information; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And can we go to page 19, please.

And Mr. Hadjicharalambous provided his drivers license

as well; isn't that right?

A. Correct.

Q. Can we go to page 21, please.

Now at the top this says Bank of Princeton

certification of beneficial owner, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And if we can zoom in on the middle of the page, please.

Letter C says: The following information for each

individual, if any, who directly or indirectly through any

contract arrangement, understanding, relationship or otherwise

owns 25 percent or more of the equity interest of the legal

entity listed above. Did I read that correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. And below in the grid you see the name He Haoran, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And there's an address in the United Kingdom, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that's his correct address, right?

A. To the best of our knowledge, yes.

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Q. Well, BOP confirmed that that was his correct address,

right?

A. Yes.

MS. MURRAY: Objection.

THE COURT: One moment. It appears that perhaps the

jurors are not able to see the screens. Okay. So we need to

fix that. Is it possible for you to go to an area that doesn't

require the screen, or do you need the screen for every

question?

MR. BARKAN: I do need the screen at this time, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Are you able to lean over and look at the

screen. We're working on getting your screens back up. But in

the mean time, if you'll just look over at the screen that is

in the second row. Okay. So you may continue.

MR. BARKAN: Thank you, your Honor.

Q. Could we go up to page 20, please. Could we zoom in on the

top left there.

Mr. He provided his passport information; isn't that

right?

A. Correct.

Q. And so he disclosed himself as an owner of 25 percent or

more of the equity of G/Clubs; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Ms. Wilson, you testified on direct about QualiFile, right?

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A. Correct.

Q. It's part of the verification process for new customers;

isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it fair to say that that's part of Bank of Princeton's

KYC process or Know Your Customer process?

A. Yes.

Q. Can we go to page 26, please, and can we zoom in a bit.

That says QualiFile response, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And if we could zoom out. If we look a little further down

the page it says, business information, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it says G/Club Operations, LLC, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And towards the bottom do you see where it says, check

systems history?

A. Yes.

Q. And below that it says, no closures found, right?

A. Correct.

Q. It says no purchase debt found, right?

A. Correct.

Q. It says no previous inquiries found; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So QualiFile found nothing problematic with the G/Club

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Operations, LLC report; isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Can we go to page 27, please.

This is the QualiFile report for Ms. Wang; isn't that

right?

A. Yes.

Q. So if we zoom in on the bottom of the page, we see where it

says check systems history, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And again no closures found, right?

A. No.

Q. No purchase debt found, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Can we go to page E28, please.

So you testified on direct that part of the QualiFile

inquiry is an inquiry into other banks where the applicant had

opened other accounts; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so when other banks asked Ms. Wang, she provided her

documentation to those banks, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So she provided it to Santander Bank?

A. Yes.

MS. MURRAY: Objection. How would this witness know

if Ms. Wang provided her information to a different bank.

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THE COURT: So you can testify about what you know.

If you happen to know whether she provided that information to

Santander, you may answer. If you don't know, then you'll say

you don't know.

A. I don't know for a fact what she supplied them, but I know

by this page that she went to the bank and inquired to open an

account there.

Q. Fair enough. And same with Citibank, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And same with Capital One, right?

A. Correct.

Q. If we could go back to page 27 and zoom in on the middle of

the page.

So for Ms. Wang do you see where it says account

actions?

A. Yes.

Q. And it says action accept, right?

A. Right.

Q. And it says recommended actions, open account, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Could we go to page 30, please.

This is the QualiFile report for Alex

Hadjicharalambous, right?

A. Right.

Q. And the recommended action here is, open account, right?

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A. Right.

Q. And it says action, accept, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Ms. Wilson, what is an ORM inquiry?

A. I'm not sure.

Q. Could we go to page 31, zoom in on the top.

A. That's an OFAC inquiry.

Q. I couldn't hear you.

A. The OFAC inquiry, the Office of Foreign Asset Control.

Q. And is the inquiry run as part of the bank's KYC process

for new customers?

A. Yes.

Q. And so at the top here it says ORM inquiry Yanping Wang,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then in a box it says suspect matches, right?

A. Correct.

Q. What is a suspect match?

A. A suspect match is, that's what they're running it against,

so Yanping Wang's name is there, and it's showing that no

matches were found. If there were potential matches, they

would be listed below instead of no matches found.

Q. So the bank's OFAC inquiry found no suspect matches for

Yanping Wang, right?

A. Correct.

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Q. Can we go to the top of the page E32, please. And can we

zoom in on the top.

So this page shows the OFAC inquiry result for Alex

Hadjicharalambous?

A. Correct.

Q. And for Mr. Hadjicharalambous there's no suspect matches,

right?

A. Correct.

Q. And can we go to the page 33, please, and can we zoom in on

the top.

And this shows the ORM inquiry for G/Club Operation,

LLC, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And again no suspect matches found, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Thank you. We can take that down.

Ms. Wilson, other than the QualiFile and the OFAC,

were there any other account opening KYC processes that Bank of

Princeton ran on these accounts?

A. We ran QualiFile, OFAC, and other than that we just review

the documents that are provided by the signers opening the

account for the businesses and themselves.

Q. So as we've reviewed, the signers for the G/Club Operations

accounts provided all the ID that the Bank of Princeton asked

for; isn't that right?

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A. Correct.

Q. And so Ms. Wang and Mr. Hadjicharalambous provided their

ID, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And they passed the banks's KYC process, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And G/Club Operation itself pass the bank's KYC process,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the beneficial owner was disclosed, right?

A. One of them, yes.

Q. The beneficial owner Mr. Haoran He was disclosed, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And the bank KYC system recommended that the account be

opened; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the bank in fact opened the accounts, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And permitted them to be funded, right?

A. Correct.

Q. You also testified on direct that an entity called

Greenwich Land, LLC had accounts at the bank, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that it was Mr. Podhaskie who signed the documents to

open that account, right?

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A. Yes.

Q. And you would agree that Mr. Podhaskie provided the

identification required by the Bank of Princeton to open that

account, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And Mr. Podhaskie gave his true profession when he

disclosed that he was a lawyer, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it's simple to verify if a person is a lawyer in good

standing, right?

MS. MURRAY: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer if you know.

A. We can do research through the internet to find if they are

currently a lawyer based on website. So whether we want to

trust the internet research that is provided, then there's a

potential we could verify that.

Q. And you did that research with Mr. Podhaskie, right?

A. I did research on Podhaskie.

MS. MURRAY: Objection, per the Court's prior ruling

on this matter.

THE COURT: If you'll step up, please.

(Continued on next page)

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(At the sidebar)

THE COURT: So on direct Mr. Podhaskie was identified

as the attorney for G/Clubs, so it's not improper to inquire as

to whether he was in good standing. Do you plan to ask any

more questions?

MR. BARKAN: A couple, your Honor. Just to identify

the fact that it was disclosed that he was a lawyer at the time

the opening of the account. It's not something they found out

later.

MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, we understand, and we believe

that that has been established. To the extent there are

additional questions into his good standing and any results

that the bank found about his good standing, which are

suggestive and imply that there was in some way giving some

legitimacy to what was happening, that's firmly within the

Court's prior ruling.

MR. BARKAN: Your Honor, I have no intention of asking

questions about whether he was in good standing.

THE COURT: You did ask a question as to whether she

did research. One minute. You did ask questions as to whether

she researched his status as a lawyer in good standing, which I

find to be acceptable to go that far because his status as a

lawyer was raised in the direct, but calling further attention

to his status as a lawyer is not proper.

MR. BARKAN: Your Honor, I was going to -- one of the

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pieces of identification that he submitted was his attorney ID

card to the bank, and I was going to confirm that they had that

information at the time before the account was opened. It was

submitted with the application. So if they're going to

complain that they later discovered that he was an attorney, I

think it's important for the jury to hear.

THE COURT: If it was part of the application process,

which Ms. Murray went through, then I think it's fine for you

to ask that one question.

MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, with respect to that point,

again we think that that has been established. There's been no

allegation by the witness that Mr. Podhaskie didn't disclose

the fact that he was an attorney in the course of the account

opening. In fact, she said that that was one of the red flags

for her in reviewing the accounts. But to continue to inquire

into this matter beyond just establishing it, we believe again

falls firmly within the Court's ruling and is attempting to

paint this with the approval of some kind of legal counsel.

THE COURT: So you're going to ask the question about

the ID, which I find acceptable. Did you want to ask any

further questions?

MR. BARKAN: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: All righty. Thank you.

(Continued on next page)

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(In open court; jury present)

BY MR. BARKAN:

Q. Can we please pull up, GX-BOP-7.

Ms. Wilson, this is an identification that

Mr. Podhaskie provided with the bank application, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And in the lower left-hand corner it says, attorney secure

pass, correct?

MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Correct.

Q. My only further question here is, this was submitted with

the account opening documents, correct?

MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. So Bank of Princeton knew that Mr. Podhaskie was an

attorney?

MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BARKAN: I'll move on.

Q. In addition to Mr. Podhaskie's ID, the beneficial owner of

Greenwich Land Hing Chi Ngok was disclosed; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And her identification was also provided, right?

A. Yes.

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Q. And Mr. Podhaskie and Greenwich Land and Ms. Ngok passed

the bank's KYC process; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And only then did the Bank of Princeton open the accounts

for Greenwich Land, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And permitted them to be funded, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You also testified on direct that an entity called Lamp

Capital, LLC had accounts at the bank, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Podhaskie signed those account opening documents as

well, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he provided the identification that was required by

Bank of Princeton, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the beneficial owner of Lamp Capital was also

disclosed, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And his document, his passport, was also provided; isn't

that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so each of Mr. Podhaskie, Lamp Capital, and the

beneficial owner passed the bank's KYC process, right?

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A. Yes.

Q. And as a result of that, the bank opened accounts for Lamp

Capital; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And permitted them to be funded, right?

MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You testified on direct that you found it concerning that

Mr. Podhaskie was a signer on the Greenwich and Lamp accounts

even though he wasn't the beneficial owner; isn't that right?

A. That he wasn't the owners of the businesses, yes.

THE COURT: If you would bring the mic closer to you,

and the same for you Mr. Barkan.

Q. I didn't hear the answer to the question.

A. That he was not the owner of the either of the businesses.

Q. Right. But the application for Greenwich Land disclosed

that Ms. Ngok was the beneficial owner, right?

A. Right.

Q. And for Lamp Capital, that application disclosed that Qiang

Guo was the beneficial owner, right?

A. Yeah, I don't remember the exact names, but we were

disclosed the two different individuals for beneficial owners

for the businesses.

Q. And so the fact that Mr. Podhaskie wasn't the beneficial

owner was not a problem for Bank of Princeton at the time the

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accounts were opened, right?

A. Right.

Q. You testified that it was concerning to you the amount of

money that was flowing through these accounts; isn't that

right?

A. Correct.

Q. G/Club we saw on direct about 13.5 million in its account

at one time?

A. Yes.

Q. Greenwich Land had about 10 million?

A. Yes.

Q. Lamp Capital had about 11 million?

A. Yes.

Q. And you testified that nobody had brought that kind of

money into Bank of Princeton, correct?

MS. MURRAY: Objection, mischaracterizes her

testimony.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Had you seen that kind of money flow through Bank of

Princeton before?

A. Not without a loan relationship to my recollection.

Q. I'm sorry.

A. Not without a loan relationship to my recollection.

Q. In fact, Bank of Princeton knew before the G/Club accounts

were open how much money was going to be brought into that

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account, right?

MS. MURRAY: Objection.

A. No.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. No.

Q. Could we call up GX-SW-2032 which is in evidence. Thank

you. Can we go to page five of the PDF, please, and can we

focus on that bottom email, please.

Ms. Wilson, do you see that this is an October 21,

email from Haitham Khaled to Debra Von Gonten and Miriam Colon

at the Bank of Princeton?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know Ms. Von Gonten and Ms. Colon?

A. I do.

Q. So they're your colleagues at the bank, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you read the second paragraph down below, Hi Debra and

Miriam, it begins with, We have another client?

A. We have another client that has a banking relationship with

Signature. They are a start-up with international membership

service for luxury living with approximately 1600 members,

current balances are 15 million, and we want to help them setup

a bank account with Princeton as well. Can you please email me

money market account rates available. That's what MMA stands

for.

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Q. You can take that down. Thank you.

Ms. Wilson, do you now understand that the Bank of

Princeton was told ahead of time how much money G/Clubs would

be bringing into the account.

MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. I was not on that email chain, so I was not aware when the

accounts were being open, but those individuals would have been

aware.

Q. You were asked on direct about a loan agreement between ACA

Capital Group Limited and Greenwich Land. Do you remember

that?

A. Yes.

Q. Can we call up GX-BOP-40 which is in evidence.

And that loan agreement was provided by Mr. Podhaskie,

right?

A. Correct.

Q. Can we scroll down to the bottom of page two, top of page

three.

So this is an email from Miriam Colon to Haitham

Khaled and Daniel Podhaskie, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were shown this on direct yesterday, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so your colleague Ms. Colon had emailed Mr. Khaled and

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Mr. Podhaskie on, this is November 24, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And she asked for information that she had requested

earlier, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Can we scroll further up to page two, please.

So this is November 24 email later that day.

Mr. Podhaskie replies and he says, thank you for following up.

We will get back to you shortly. I read that correctly, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And again it's Tuesday, November 24, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Can we scroll up to the top half.

On December 1, Ms. Colon reiterates her request for

information from Mr. Podhaskie and Mr. Khaled, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And if we scroll up to the bottom of page one, please.

So we see Mr. Podhaskie replies the next day on

December 2, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he supplies the requested information in the loan

agreement, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Ms. Wilson, you're aware that Thanksgiving falls on the

fourth Thursday of every November, right?

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A. Yes.

Q. And in 2020, the fourth Thursday of November was November

26, right?

A. I don't exactly know.

Q. I will represent to you --

A. I don't have a calendar.

THE COURT: Don't testify.

Q. Friday was November 27th; isn't that right?

A. If Thursday was the 26, then, yeah.

Q. And the 28th and 29th would have been the weekend, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And Monday would have been the 30th, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And so two days later on December 2nd, Mr. Podhaskie

replies with the requested information of the loan agreement;

isn't that right?

A. Yes, he replied on December 2nd.

Q. Could we go to page five of the pdf, please. And can we

zoom in on the top half.

This is the loan agreement that Mr. Podhaskie

provided, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You were shown this yesterday on direct, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Podhaskie is a signatory on the Greenwich Land accounts

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at BOP, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And if you look at number one, ACA Capital is based in Hong

Kong, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You can take that down.

Ms. Wilson, you testified that there came a time when

you made a recommendation to close the accounts, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You had begun conducting some website research into

G/Clubs?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you testified you did some Googling?

A. Yes.

Q. And you did it personally, right?

A. I did.

Q. And you discovered what you called negative news, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And as the BSA officer, you consider negative news when you

evaluate risk to the bank, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you found the names of other about businesses linked to

Mr. Guo; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw the name GTV, right?

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A. Yes.

Q. But the negative news was from abroad, right?

A. It was on the internet, so.

Q. Do you recall telling the government that the news you

found about Mr. Guo came from abroad, right?

A. Some of it, yes.

Q. You actually told the government that there was not a lot

of negative news about Mr. Guo from in the United States; isn't

that right?

A. I didn't say those exact words, but I found a lot of

negative news on him.

Q. From abroad, right?

A. That he was exiled from China, yes.

Q. So you learned that Mr. Guo was in trouble with the Chinese

authorities, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you learned he had been exiled from China, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you learned that the Chinese government had issued an

Interpol red notice for him, right?

A. I don't know what that is.

Q. You learned that the Chinese government had frozen his

assets, right?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Even just with the negative news stories you found about

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what the Chinese government had done, that was enough for you

to close the accounts for Lamp, Greenwich and G/Clubs, right?

MS. MURRAY: Objection, mischaracterizes.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BARKAN: I have nothing further, your Honor.

Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. MURRAY:

Q. Ms. Wilson, you were asked a few questions on cross-examine

about the G/Club QualiFile response. Do you recall those?

A. Yes.

Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please pull that up. It's

government Exhibit BOP-1, and we'll go to page 26.

While we're pulling that up, Ms. Wilson, how, if at

all, did the QualiFile results factor into your mosaic of

considerations in conducting a BSA analysis?

A. If a QualiFile report says to decline an account, then we

do automatically decline the account at the bank. But the

other factors that we look into is to make sure that sometimes

people put freezes on their social security number, so we want

to make sure there's no freezes. And we do look at how many

accounts are opened within the time period on that QualiFile

that may be listed.

And if multiple accounts are opened at multiple

institutions within a short period of time, that can raise a

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lot of red flags to us because that's what fraudsters will do.

They open multiple accounts at different banks. It's just a

red flag to me as a BSA officer. Usually as a human being or a

business, you only have accounts at very few banks.

Q. And looking at this, Ms. Wilson, on what date was the

G/Club QualiFile report run?

A. 11/3/2020.

Q. And, Ms. Loftus, if we can please go to page 25 of this

exhibit, the page before.

On what date was G/Club Operations established as a

business?

A. October 7, 2020.

Q. Approximately how many weeks before the QualiFile report

was run was G/Clubs brought into existence as a company?

A. Less than a month.

Q. We can take that down, Ms. Loftus.

You were also asked some questions about Haoran He's

address on cross-examination. Do you recall those questions?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever been to Haoran He's house in the United

States?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether the address provided to the Bank of

Princeton is where he in fact lives?

A. No.

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Q. You were also asked questions about ACA Capital's address

listed in Hong Kong, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Have you ever been to ACA Capital's offices at that address

in Hong Kong?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether ACA Capital actually operates out of

the address it provided to the bank?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever met Qiang Guo who was listed as the ultimate

beneficial owner of the accounts?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever met Yvette Wang who was listed as the signer

on various of the accounts?

A. No.

Q. With respect to your BSA analysis of these three customers

Lamp Capital, Greenwich Land and G/Clubs, what, if anything,

was relevant to your BSA analysis about the status of the

ultimate beneficial owners?

A. They were non-resident aliens, which means they're not U.S.

citizens. So our bank protocol is any non-resident alien,

whether they're just a beneficial owner on the signer on the

account, we monitor them a little more frequently because those

types of individuals usually are sending a higher volume of

wires potentially in and out of the country, so we like to

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monitor that.

Q. And what, if anything, did you find about the activity in

these accounts during the time period you were monitoring it

that was relevant to your BSA analysis of the risk of these

accounts?

A. A high volume of funds came into the account and was

quickly being sent out, and the activity was not in line with

the types of businesses that we would normally associate with

the investment capitals or real estate businesses.

Q. And what types of businesses were Lamp Capital and

Greenwich Land described as to the bank?

MR. BARKAN: Objection, scope.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. They were investment advisor or real estate.

MS. MURRAY: May I have a moment, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. MURRAY: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Recross.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. BARKAN:

Q. Ms. Wilson, the beneficial owners provided each and every

identification document that the Bank of Princeton required to

open these accounts, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Each of Greenwich, lamp and G/Club passed the bank's KYC

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process, right?

A. At account opening, yes.

Q. And the accounts were opened and funded, right?

A. Correct.

MR. BARKAN: Thank you. Nothing further.

THE COURT: Anything further?

MS. MURRAY: No, your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: You may step out.

(The witness is excused)

THE COURT: The government may call its next witness.

MR. HORTON: Your Honor, the government calls Sam

Roberts.

SAMUEL ROBERTS,

called as a witness by the Government,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

THE COURT: Would you say your name and spell it.

THE WITNESS: Samuel David Roberts, S-A-M-U-E-L,

D-A-V-I-D, R-O-B-E-R-T-S.

THE COURT: You may inquire.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Good morning, Mr. Roberts.

A. Good morning.

Q. Where do you work?

A. I work at Bitgo.

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Q. Could you please tell that for the jury and court reporter.

A. B-I-T-G-O.

Q. Mr. Roberts, if you'd like to move the microphone closer it

maybe easier for us to hear you.

What industry is Bitgo in?

A. Bitgo is in the block chain and cryptocurrency industry.

Q. And how long have you worked there?

A. Three years and three months.

Q. What kind of work do you do at Bitgo?

A. I work in Bitgo's compliance team and I do transaction

monitoring and investigations.

Q. As a member of Bitgo's compliance team, Mr. Roberts, did

there come a time that you conducted an account review of the

Himalaya Exchange?

A. Yes.

Q. We'll come back to that.

Generally speaking, Mr. Roberts, what services does

Bitgo provide to its customers in the cryptocurrency industry?

A. Bitgo provides wallet services and custodial services.

Q. Can you explain what you mean by wallet services?

A. Yes. It's the idea of providing a wallet to our users or

customers so they can interact with the block chain.

Q. And in this context, what is a wallet used for?

A. A wallet can be used to receive, hold, and send

cryptocurrency.

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Q. What exactly is your title at Bitgo, Mr. Roberts?

A. My title is head of financial intelligence unit.

Q. And as the head of the financial intelligence unit at

Bitgo, what information, if any, do you review to perform your

job?

A. I review various pieces of information including a

customer's account profile information, transactions, and other

information.

Q. And as part of your work on the financial intelligence unit

at Bitgo, do you learn about the nature of Bitgo's customers'

businesses?

A. Yes.

Q. And what's your purpose in learning about Bitgo customers'

businesses?

A. In order to understand the activity they are doing on the

Bitgo platform.

Q. What kind of things do you learn about Bitgo as customers?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: What kinds of things do you look into

about your customers.

Q. Mr. Roberts, what kinds of things do you look into about

Bitgo's customers?

A. We will review information about their business and people

associated with their business.

Q. Mr. Roberts, in your work at Bitgo, what year did you first

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hear about the Himalaya Exchange?

A. 2021.

Q. And when you first heard about the Himalaya Exchange, what

did you understand it was?

A. I understood the Himalaya Exchange to be a cryptocurrency

exchange.

Q. And what was your basis for that understanding?

A. Information supplied to Bitgo when Himalaya Exchange was

on-boarding to Bitgo to an account.

Q. Who supplied that information to Bitgo about the Himalaya

Exchange?

A. I don't recall or I'm aware of the exact person, but

Himalaya Exchange employees. I recall it was someone.

Q. And what role, if any, did you have in connection with the

Himalaya Exchange on-boarding at Bitgo?

A. I was not involved in the on-boarding of their account to

Bitgo.

Q. What work were, if any, were you doing in connection with

the Exchange at that time?

A. At that time Himalaya Exchange had requested that Bitgo

provide support for two cryptocurrencies of theirs.

Q. And what were those cryptocurrencies?

A. The first one was call being called Himalaya Coin and the

second one was called Himalaya Dollar.

Q. And what did you understand Himalaya Coin to be?

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A. I understood Himalaya Coin to be a cryptocurrency with a

fluctuating value.

Q. What did you understand Himalaya Dollar to be?

A. I understood Himalaya Dollar to be a stable coin.

Q. And what did that mean to you at the time, a stable coin?

A. To me a stable coin is a cryptocurrency that derives its

value from a different currency or asset.

Q. And how does that work?

A. The way that works is that you will have the base currency

or asset, and you will set aside a number of those, and there

will be a corresponding number of cryptocurrency tokens of that

asset or currency.

THE COURT: What you do mean by set aside?

THE WITNESS: What I mean by that is, if I can use a

U.S. dollar stable coin as an example. So if there are 100

cryptocurrency tokens of the U.S. dollar stable coin, there

will be 100 U.S. dollars set aside to give value to those

cryptocurrency tokens.

THE COURT: But set aside in what way?

THE WITNESS: It could vary, but I typically

understand that you would set it aside in a bank account, in a

bank vault, somewhere where that value cannot be accessed.

THE COURT: You may continue.

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. What were the products that the Himalaya Exchange was

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signing for up at Bitgo at this time in 2021?

A. I recall Himalaya Exchange signing up for our hot wallet

services and our custodial services.

Q. And what, if any, wallets are associated with your

custodial services?

A. These wallets are cold wallets.

Q. Mr. Roberts, what's the difference --

THE INTERPRETER: Can you say that again, Mr. Roberts?

What was the services.

THE WITNESS: Hot wallet services and custodial

services.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you mentioned that the Himalaya Exchange

you're signing up for hot wallets and cold wallets, what's the

difference at Bitgo between a hot wallet and a cold wallet?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. A hot wallet at Bitgo is non-custodial, which means that

the user of the wallet maintains the ultimate control of it;

where as a cold wallet is typically custodial and Bitgo

controls that cold wallet.

Q. Is a cold wallet connected to --

THE COURT: One moment. When you say holder of the

wallet, what are you referring to, an entity? Are you

referring to a customer? What do you mean by holder?

THE WITNESS: So a cryptocurrency wallet is secured by

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private keys, and those private keys should only be known to

the holder of the wallet.

THE COURT: But what do you mean by the holder?

THE WITNESS: So the holder of the wallet would be the

person or entity that is holding those private keys and they

secure the wallet. I think a good example is if you have $100

in your wallet, your physical wallet in your pocket right now,

you are holding your wallet. You are securing it. But if you

had a $100 in your bank account, it's your bank that is

securing it, not yourself.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q. Mr. Roberts, are these wallets connected to the internet?

A. Can you clarify which type of wallet you're talking about.

Q. Which, if any, of these wallets are connected to the

internet?

A. Typically hot wallets are by definition connected to

internet.

Q. And what's the implication, if any, of a cold wallet not

being connected to the internet?

A. Typically they are regarded as being more secure than hot

wallets because if a wallet is disconnected from the internet,

it makes it more difficult for a malicious or bad actor to

compromise it.

Q. And at this time in 2021, Mr. Roberts, what, if anything,

did you understand the Himalaya Exchange would be storing in

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their Bitgo wallets?

A. I recall they were looking at storing Himalaya Coin and

Himalaya Dollar.

Q. And where did you get that information from?

A. I recall that during the account on-boarding process that

we collect information about what our customer is looking to

do, and there was some reference to that in that form.

Q. You said that you conducted a due diligence review when the

Himalaya Exchange signed up for these services from Bitgo in

2021, how did you conduct that due diligence review in 2021?

A. This due diligence review is focused on the Himalaya Dollar

and the Himalaya Coin, and it was an anti-money laundering due

diligence review.

Q. What does that mean, an anti-money laundering due diligence

review?

A. It's the process of performing a review on something to

look for red flags connected to financial crime or money

laundering.

Q. What do you mean by red flags?

A. In the industry I work in, our big focus is to detect

suspicious activity and indicators of financial crime. So red

flags is something that we look for to try and inform us if

certain activity, certain customers may have suspicious

activity or potential touch points to financial crime.

Q. With respect to Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar,

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Mr. Roberts, what analysis, if any, were you performing in

2021?

A. We performed a few different things. The first one was

open source research, including something that we called a

negative news search in my industry to see if there's

information available on the public domain that may present red

flags. We were assessing the design of these cryptocurrencies

to see if there were any features such as privacy enhancing

features which may present red flags and looking to understand

if our block chain analytics vendor were able to surveil these

cryptocurrencies.

Q. What do you mean by block chain analytics?

A. Yes. Block chain analytics is the process of interpreting

transactions, cryptocurrency transactions that occur on a block

chain. And specific to my role, it's the process of trying to

understand if these transactions have financial crime red

flags.

Q. And what, if anything, were the results of the block chain

analytics for Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar in 2021?

A. At that time I recall that there was no support for

surveilling Himalaya Coin or Himalaya Dollar through our block

chain analytics vendor.

Q. What, if anything, did you take away from that?

A. I recall concluding that these two cryptocurrencies were in

kind of a prelaunch state, so it was probably not likely that

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our vendor was going to have turned on support for their

surveillance yet.

Q. And what does prelaunch state mean?

A. I understand a prelaunch state to be cryptocurrency that is

yet to be available publicly, but is in development, business

development.

Q. And, Mr. Roberts, when you talk about block chain activity,

what do you mean by block chain?

A. By block chain -- sorry, can you repeat that question.

Q. Sure. You mentioned block chain activity was something you

looked at for Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar in 2021, what

do you mean by block chain?

A. A block chain is a distributed ledger that facilitates

cryptocurrency transactions.

Q. And what is distributed ledger mean?

A. It's the idea that a block chain can exist on various

different say computers is a good example that may be in

distributed geographic locations and accessible by different

people.

So it's the idea that when transactions are processed

on a block chain that lots of different parties can verify the

transactions, and that no single entity or group of people can

have control over that process.

Q. Is this something you looked at in your analysis of

Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar, the block chain?

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A. I recall contemplating whether there was block chain

activity of Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar during that

review.

Q. And did you find that out?

A. Yes. My general conclusion that the coins were in a

prelaunch state so that there would have been no block chain

activity at that time.

Q. And generally speaking in your work at Bitgo, how do you

look at the block chain? How do you do that?

A. We have several methods. We have our block chain analytics

vendors that provide us tools to help us interpret the block

chain. We have internal -- an internal database of block chain

transactions, and we also can go on publicly available

websites, generally known as block explorers, that allow the

public to go and search activity on a block chain.

Q. When you talk about the block chain, is this a publicly

accessible thing?

A. Block chains typically -- the activity occurring on a block

chain such as the transactions are typically publicly

accessible.

Q. Who controls the block chain?

A. It would depend on the specific block chain. But typically

block chains are not controlled by any single individual or

group.

Q. Was there a particular block chain you looked at in

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connection with the Himalaya Coin and the Himalaya Dollar?

A. Yes.

Q. Which one was that?

A. I recall going to look at the ethereum block chain because

I was of the understanding that these two digital assets were

to have interoperability or the basis on that block chain.

Q. When you say the ethereum block chain, is that a publicly

accessible thing?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Did you intractability?

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: What did you say?

THE WITNESS: Can I be refreshed on what I said.

(Record was read)

THE WITNESS: I think I was trying to say

interoperability. The idea that the ethereum block chain is

what people call a layer one block chain, and then you can

build things on top it of such as cryptocurrencies.

Q. Mr. Robert, who controls the ethereum block chain?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I am not aware of any single group or party or entity that

controls the ethereum block chain, so no one.

Q. How does that work?

Are they centralized or decentralized?

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MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I am of the understanding that the ethereum block chain is

decentralized.

Q. What does that mean that it's decentralized?

A. That no single person, party, group of people controls the

transactions that can be -- that can occur on that block chain.

Q. Is that true for the cryptocurrencies that are on that

ethereum block chain?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Well, if you know you can answer.

A. I think it would depend on the specific cryptocurrency.

Q. Were there any red flags in your prelaunch review of the

Himalaya Exchange in 2021?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. I do not recall identifying any red flags when I concluded

my review in 2021.

Q. And what happened with the Himalaya Exchange and Bitgo

after you finish your review?

A. The Himalaya Exchange was on-boarded to Bitgo as a

customer, and the two digital -- the two cryptocurrencies,

Himalaya Dollar, Himalaya Coin were approved for our wallet

support.

Q. Mr. Roberts, after the on-boarding in 2021, did there come

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a time when you conducted an account review of the Himalaya

Exchange?

A. Yes.

Q. What year was that account review that you conducted?

A. It began in 2022.

Q. And under what circumstances does Bitgo conduct account

reviews of customers?

A. There can be various circumstances. Specific to my team,

we may initiate an account review when we receive an alert or

notification for one of our detection scenarios.

Q. And what, if anything, triggered the 2022 account review

you conducted?

A. Bitgo received a subpoena that identified Himalaya

International Clearing Limited and individuals and other

entities that I believed to be associated with that entity.

Q. And what, if anything, was -- what did you understand

Himalaya International Clearing was?

A. I understood that they were an entity. I recall they were

incorporated in the British Virgin Islands and that they were

the entity behind or operating the Himalaya Exchange.

Q. Mr. Roberts, did this subpoena require Bitgo to conduct the

account review?

A. No.

Q. And what direction, if any, did you get from the U.S.

government when you began the account review?

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A. I do not recall receiving any direction from the U.S.

government.

Q. Was this 2022 account review different from the review you

conducted the year before?

A. Yes.

Q. And in what ways was it different?

A. The way it came about was different, the purpose of the

review is different, and the parties and entities we were

looking into were different.

Q. What was the first step of your 2022 account review of the

Himalaya Exchange?

A. Our first step was to go and try and learn a little bit

more about the names and entities listed in the subpoena, so

that the first step is typically go and do an open source

review on a publicly available database such as Google.

Q. And what material from the Himalaya Exchange, if any, were

part of this review?

A. An account review such as this one will encompass review of

account profile information that Bitgo has collected about

Himalaya Exchange.

Q. Did the Himalaya Exchange have a website at this time?

A. Yes, I recall that they had a website.

Q. And was reviewing that website part of your review?

A. Yes.

Q. What materials, if any, from that website did you consult?

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A. I recall consulting white papers that were prepared about

the Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin and clicking through the

several web pages on their website.

Q. You said you looked at white papers for the Himalaya Coin

and the Himalaya Dollar, what is a white paper?

A. In the block chain industry, a person seeking to develop a

new block chain or a cryptocurrency often chooses to publish a

white paper which will outline the kind of purpose of a

cryptocurrency, a block chain, how it operates, and various

other pieces of information.

Q. In this first phase of your 2022 account review,

Mr. Robert, what, if anything, did you learn about the price of

H Coin?

A. I recall learning that H Coin had a price and that it

seemed -- it was something that we were interested in and

reviewed further.

Q. And when you reviewed the H Coin's price further, what did

you find?

A. I recall finding that it appeared to have a very large

apparent market capitalization based on the number of H Coin I

understood to be in circulation, and the price of the H Coin

that I recall reviewing on Himalaya Exchange's website.

Q. Mr. Roberts, when you say that H Coin had a large market

capitalization, can you explain to the jury what that means?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor. Can we have a

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brief sidebar?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Continued on next page)

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(At the sidebar)

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, thank you. I just wanted

to flag because I'm anticipating that the questioning may go

here that we're going to get into an area where this witness is

asked whether he found the large market capital H Coin relative

to what was in circulation to be something that struck him as

strange or odd or unusual. I could be wrong, Mr. Horton can

clarify. I believe if the question goes that far that that

would be over the line that we understood Your Honor to rule

yesterday in terms of expert witness testimony.

THE COURT: I anticipate that he's going to testify

that they decided to terminate the relationship because of

certain factors. And if that's one of the factors, then it's

appropriate for him to testify about it.

MR. SCHIRICK: Understood, your Honor. And I think

what we're just trying to understand is where the line is on

what this witness's opinion is with respect to those issues

versus the factual observations, which is what we understood

the line that the Court draw yesterday.

THE COURT: So far he has only spoken about market

capitalizations.

MR. SCHIRICK: We could have this question read back,

but I just wanted to register the objection now because, either

in this question or the next question, I anticipate us getting

there. It may be fine. I think we're getting close to that

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area.

THE COURT: So I would anticipate that he would state

that his company does not want to do business with companies

that have these characteristics, am I correct?

MR. HORTON: Generally right. He's conducting an

analysis of these products in the market. He's taking in the

information. And as your Honor noted, he's testifying to what

recommendation he should make with that information. So there

are questions about what his realtime historical analysis was.

The Court's order was about general ties and general topics

uncovered. I have no intention in going anywhere near that.

He said that the one thing that he saw was market

capitalization, and that was relevant to his investigation. I

want to ask him what does that mean and how does that relate to

the investigation.

MR. SCHIRICK: Look, just a final point, your Honor.

As the Court may recall, in the government's expert's

disclosure, Professor Sean spends quite a bit of time talking

about this precise issue, how he believes in his observation as

the expert, that the large market cap relative to trading

volume are indicative of certain things. So from that

perspective, I think there's a significant overlap of what this

witness's anticipated testimony will be based on what

Mr. Horton just said.

THE COURT: So the expert is going to testify about

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his opinion about the significance. He's testifying about a

fact and then a decision to terminate the relationship. So

you're not going to ask him what does it mean that there's a

large capitalization?

MR. HORTON: Certainly not going to ask him that.

Generally what I will ask is he identified it as a fact that is

relevant, that he saw a market cap that was relevant, how is it

relevant. That's the bridge between learning the fact and

making the recommendation.

THE COURT: It's only logical that he has to give some

explanation for why they disapproved of this characteristic.

And your witness will say that that he disagrees with that,

which is what expert witnesses do.

MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.

(Continued on next page)

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(In open court)

THE COURT: You may continue.

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, in this first phase of this 2022 account

review, what, if anything, did you learn about the price of

H Coin?

A. I recall learning that it had a value, and that in light --

I recall finding open source information about the price of

Himalaya Coin.

Q. And you said a moment ago that you observed the market

capitalization of H Coin, can you explain to the jury what

market capitalization means?

A. I understand market capitalization to be the aggregate

amount of -- sorry. could I start that again.

The aggregate amount of a type of asset.

Q. And what did you observe about H Coin's aggregate amount?

A. I recall observing that it had a price somewhere in the

range of 15 to 20 dollars in that ballpark range, and that it

also appeared to have a maximum supply of somewhere in the

ballpark range of one to 1.5 billion H Coins.

So by multiplying the price of a single H Coin against

what the apparent amount of H Coin circulation, that appeared

to give H Coin a market capitalization in the multibillion

dollar range.

Q. And what impact, if any, did seeing that H Coin had a

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multibillion dollar market capitalization have on your review?

A. I recall that prompting us to go and understand what other

information is out there about H Coin, such as going to

cryptocurrency market data websites to see if we could verify

that information or learn more about it.

Q. And in that process what, if anything, did you learn about

the historical price of H Coin?

A. I recall learning that we found some open source news

articles about a rapid price spike of the Himalaya Coin in

around late 2021 where it had shot up from a very, very small

price, less than a dollar, to a very significant price, above

20 dollars in a short period of time around a few weeks.

Q. And what impact, if any, did seeing H Coin's price go from

under a dollar to over 20 dollars have on your review of

H Coin?

A. I recall being interested in trying to understand why that

happened.

Q. And what did you do to try understand why that happened?

A. I recall trying to learn -- as I mentioned earlier about

going to try and find more information on cryptocurrency market

data websites. I recall I was not able to find any information

about H Coin on these websites. So the next thing was to go

and try and understand how their exchange was working and other

associated things.

Q. And, Mr. Roberts, why did seeing the historical price of

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H Coin prompt you to take those next steps?

A. It was because I found that price spike to be an anomalous

price spike compared to how I understand financial markets with

cryptocurrency and --

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: So you're nearly speaking from your point

of view as an employee of your company; is that correct?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: You may continue.

Q. Mr. Roberts, why did seeing H Coin's price spike cause you

to take these additional investigative steps?

A. Because I found that price spike to be anomalous compared

to what I understand about cryptocurrency financial markets.

And when we find something anomalous, that is starting a

process of assessing whether it might present a red flag to us.

THE COURT: So what do you mean by anomalous?

THE WITNESS: What I mean by that is comparing market

activity like I observe with H Coin or what I recall observing

about Himalaya Coin compared to other cryptocurrency such as

Bitcoin, for example, and what I understand about the price

fluctuation of those other cryptocurrencies.

Q. And what did you see when you compared it to other coins?

When you compared H Coin to other coins as part of your review

what did you see?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

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THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I recall concluding that at a general level, it appeared to

be a very significant price spike compared to the well-known

cryptocurrencies that I have familiarity with.

Q. As part of this review, did you conduct a block chain

analysis?

A. I went to review information available in the block chain

about Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar.

Q. And what did you see when you went to look at the block

chain for Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar?

What did you see when you went to look at the block

chain?

A. I found that Himalaya Coin was a cryptocurrency that had

been created and published to the ethereum block chain, and I

identified a wallet where I understood a significant amount of

the H Coin in circulation to be sitting in.

Q. And who owned the wallet where you saw significant amount

of H Coin in circulation?

A. I recall finding that this wallet was generated through the

Bitgo platform and that it was held by -- that it was a hot

wallet held by Himalaya International Clearing Limited.

Q. And when you say a significant amount, about how much of

the H Coin in circulation was in the Himalaya Exchange's own

wallet?

A. I recall it being nearly 100 percent.

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Q. What impact, if any, did that finding, that almost a

hundred percent of H Coin was in the Exchange's own wallet have

on your review?

A. I recall finding that it indicated that there is a

significant concentration of ownership of the Himalaya Coin.

Q. And what impact, if any, did finding that the Himalaya Coin

was stored in a hot wallet have on your review?

A. That prompted me to go and look at assets that were

cryptocurrencies that may have been held in their cold wallets.

Q. What was the purpose of determining whether the assets were

held in cold wallets or hot wallets?

A. The purpose was to get a complete picture of their activity

in the Bitgo platform.

Q. What did it mean to you, if anything, that H Coin was

stored in a hot wallet and not a cold wallet?

A. I remember finding that due to the apparent multibillion

dollar market cap of H Coin that I would think that a business

would seek to hold those assets in a cold wallet.

Q. And why was your understanding at the time that assets like

that would be stored in a cold wallet, not a hot wallet?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. Well, I recall that there was not a significant amount of

block chain transaction activity with H Coin. So if you have

multiple billion dollars worth of a cryptocurrency, I would

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think it would be preferable to store those in a cold wallet

due to the enhanced security features that they offer.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you said that part of your review is comparing

H Coin and H Dollar to other cryptocurrencies.

How did that comparison play out when you looked at

the block chain?

A. I found that nearly 100 percent of H Coin and H Dollar was

stored in a single wallet which I found to be anomalous for

other cryptocurrency that are available.

MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. And, Mr. Roberts, when you anomalous, what do you mean by

anomalous?

A. A lot of cryptocurrencies typically have --

THE COURT: I think what he's asking you to do is

define the word.

THE WITNESS: Can you clarify which word?

THE COURT: Anomalous.

THE WITNESS: A finding that is not normal.

Q. Mr. Robert, does Bitcoin trade on the block chain?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. Bitcoin can be transacted on a block chain.

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Q. And in your account review what, if anything, did you find

that whether H Coin was transacting on the block chain?

A. I found that there was not much block chain transaction

activity in connection with H Coin.

Q. And what, if anything, did you find about whether H Dollar

was transacting on the block chain?

A. I recall making a similar finding.

Q. Mr. Roberts, what impact did the comparisons you've

testified about between H Coin and H Dollar and other

cryptocurrencies, what impact did those comparisons have on

your review?

A. I recall finding that the block chain activity with these

two cryptocurrencies was not what I would expect or anticipate

for cryptocurrency activity generally.

Q. And what impact, if any, did seeing relatively little block

chain activity for H Coin or H Dollar have on your review?

A. I recall finding that this was a red flag for us that we

wanted to investigate further.

Q. And what impact, if any, did seeing that almost all of

H Coin was held in the Himalaya Exchange's own wallet have on

your review?

A. I recall that being a potential red flag that we wanted to

understand more about.

Q. And what impact, if any, Mr. Roberts, did seeing that the

H Coin was in a hot wallet, not a cold wallet, have on your

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review?

A. I recall finding that that was a red flag that we wanted to

learn more about and investigate.

Q. And why were these red flags?

A. Because the activity on all of those topics appeared not

normal for a cryptocurrency exchange.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you said you read the white papers for H Coin

and H Dollar, what did you learn H Dollar was from reading its

white paper?

A. I understood H Dollar to be a stable coin.

Q. And in your role as a head of financial intelligence at

Bitgo, what do you understand a stable coin to be?

THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, the interpreter is

requesting all parties to slow down.

THE COURT: All righty.

A. Can you please repeat that.

Q. As the head of the intelligence unit at Bitgo, what do you

understand a stable coin to be?

A. My understanding is a stable coin derives its value from

another currency or asset.

Q. And how does that work?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: What is your understanding as an employee

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of this company that you work for.

A. That a stable coin will have its value derived from a

different currency or asset that is not on -- that's not

necessarily true. Just the different currency or asset.

Q. And what is the connection then, if any, between the stable

coin and that different asset?

A. The intention of a stable coin as I understand it is for

the stable coin to maintain a stable price against that base

asset or currency.

Q. When you looked at the Himalaya Dollar, how many units, if

any, did you see were minted?

A. When I reviewed the block chain information for Himalaya

Dollar, I recall there being something like in the ballpark of

one to 1.5 billion, one to 1.5 billion H Dollars that had been

minted.

Q. And what, if anything, did you expect that to mean about

its reserves?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Your Honor, we just have a

standing objection to this line of questioning.

THE COURT: Is there a different question?

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that.

Q. You said you observed there to be 1.0 to 1.5 billion units

of Himalaya Dollars, first I want to ask you, what do you mean

units of Himalaya Dollar?

A. Individual tokens. With cryptocurrencies, there's

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typically a concept of maximum supply. It doesn't necessarily

have to be maximum, but take Bitcoin, for example. Bitcoin is

regarded to have a maximum supply of 21 million Bitcoin, so

that is the limit of the amount of Bitcoin that can exist.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor, to typical

Bitcoin example.

THE COURT: So you are testifying based on your own

company's priorities and policies; is that correct?

THE WITNESS: I'm testifying because I was called to

come here today to testify.

THE COURT: What I'm saying is that you're speaking

about the approach that your company uses in analyzing an

issue?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you said a moment ago that there were between

a billion and a billion and a half units of H Dollar minted.

You observed that in your investigation.

What does that mean "minted?"

A. I understand that to mean the number of units of a token,

of a cryptocurrency token that have been created.

Q. When you saw that there were between one and 1.5 billion

units of Himalaya Dollar, what, if anything, did that cause you

to look for?

A. That cause me to seek to understand where the corresponding

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U.S. dollar value was being held or stored.

Q. And so in this context with one to 1.5 billion of Himalaya

Dollar, what do you mean by corresponding U.S. dollar value?

What does that mean?

A. So if one Himalaya Dollar equals one U.S. dollar, I would

expect that there's a corresponding -- if there are in the

ballpark of one to 1.5 billion Himalaya Dollars in circulation,

I would expect that there be the equivalent amount of U.S.

dollars or U.S. dollar value stored somewhere else.

Q. And what, if anything, did you ultimately find out about

that?

A. Can you confirm that you're asking about the initial review

in 2022?

Q. I'll ask a different question.

During your account review of the Himalaya Exchange,

what did you learn about the U.S. dollar value that was

connected to the one to 1.5 billion units of Himalaya Dollar

that you found?

A. After looking at this information, I was not able to find

information available in the public domain or in the account

profile information that explains Himalaya's -- how they go

about storing that value.

Q. And during this account review, Mr. Roberts, what, if

anything, did you learn about whether Himalaya Dollar or

Himalaya Coin was backed by gold?

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A. I do not recall making a finding about gold backing either

of these cryptocurrencies.

Q. When you reviewed the design and functions of the Himalaya

Exchange, Mr. Roberts, what, if anything, did you learn about

whether customers could withdraw their H Coin and H Dollar from

the Exchange?

A. I recall doing a review of the mechanics of their exchange

and having questions about the specifics.

Q. And what, if anything, did you come to understand about

whether customers could withdraw their coins from the Exchange?

A. I recall wanting to know more information so I could

understand how they could -- if a customer and how they could

withdraw those coins from the exchange.

Q. Did you ultimately learn if a customer could withdraw those

coins from the Exchange?

A. I recall getting more information about the mechanics of

the Exchange. I recall learning that being told by a Himalaya

Exchange employee that it was not possible at that time to

withdraw H Coin.

Q. And what impact, if any, did that finding that it wasn't

possible to withdraw H Coin from the Exchange have on your

investigation?

A. I found it to be abnormal compared to how other

cryptocurrency exchanges operate.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

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THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

Q. Why did you find it to be abnormal?

A. Because a typical cryptocurrency exchange in my experience

would allow their users to withdraw their assets.

MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Mr. Roberts, let me ask you, what was the implication for

your review of the Exchange of the fact that customers couldn't

withdraw their coins?

A. It was something we wanted to learn more about.

Q. Did there come a time that you spoke directly with the

Himalaya Exchange?

A. Yes. There was a time where I spoke to people who I took

to be employees of Himalaya Exchange.

Q. And when did that first happen?

A. I recall that first occurring in early 2023.

Q. What was the purpose of that call in early 2023?

A. The purpose of that call was for Bitgo's compliance team,

including myself to ask questions about the Himalaya Exchange

and findings we had made from our investigations thus far.

Q. What were the questions that you wanted to ask them in

January of 2023?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I recall there being various questions, including questions

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about the mechanics and how their exchange works, about more

details about the Himalaya Dollar stable coin and other

questions about where they're physically operating from and

other things.

Q. Did you receive sufficient answers to these questions on

this call in January of 2023?

A. Bitgo received responses to these questions. I recall

thinking or finding that we wanted to dive further into some of

the responses we received.

Q. By the way, what kind of call was this in January of 2023?

A. This was a video call over the internet.

Q. On this call what, if anything, did the Exchange tell you

about H Coin's price?

A. I recall asking a question about H Coin's price and getting

a response along the lines of --

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I recall getting a response that the price fluctuated on a

daily basis.

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, may we have a brief

sidebar?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Continued on next page)

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(At the sidebar)

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, our understanding is that

this line of questioning is about a conversation, about

multiple conversations that this witness had with the general

counsel of the Himalaya Exchange. And there's been -- our

understanding of the Court's second ruling with respect to

co-conspirator statement and with respect to agent statements

is that the government first has to proffer that the general

counsel is either an agent or a co-conspirator. The government

has not done so. And so this witness testifying about what the

general counsel in the Exchange told him in January of 2023,

according to the Court's ruling is inappropriate and its

hearsay.

MR. HORTON: Your Honor, the purpose of all these

questions and the purpose of this testimony now is really at

the time of the statement, what was the impact, the effect of

these statements on him. Whether or not they're true, of

course the nature of these statements is that most all of them

are false. So there's a few reasons that they're not hearsay.

When a witness like this whose job is to obtain and analyze

information about its customers, getting statements for the

purpose of their effect, that's what I'm trying to elicit.

THE COURT: He's basing his ultimate conclusion on

information gathering from different sources, one of which was

conversation with someone at --

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MR. HORTON: It's supposed to be people from the

Exchange.

THE COURT: I think it's justifiable. He's got to be

able to explain why it is that they made their decision.

MR. SCHIRICK: He can certainly do that without

eliciting from the witness statements that this person made.

MR. HORTON: That was the source of the information.

He analyzes the customers by calling them up and saying answer

our questions, please.

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we maintain the objection.

At the end of the day, we understood the Court's ruling back in

May to be that the government can't take the position that

every employee of every one of the companies at issue here over

the entire period of time at issue is effectively an agent of

the defendant, such that their words are the words of the

defendant.

THE COURT: Well, they're not necessarily the words of

the defendant. He said he needed to do research. He made

inquiries. Based on those inquiries, they decided, the answers

to those inquiries they decided to terminate the relationship.

How else is he going to explain why they made their decision?

MR. SCHIRICK: I get it. I'm not saying he can't.

I'm just saying that there has to be some showing that the

person who is a declarant, a witness who is going to testify

about those conversations, there first needs to be some proof

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that that person was a co-conspirator or an agent. Otherwise,

I don't understand why those conversations are ones that can

come into the jury.

MR. HORTON: Setting aside the evidence that has come

in and will come in about the Himalaya Exchange agency and

their relationship with the defendant, setting that aside,

they're not coming in under the co-conspirator or agency

exception. They're coming in as the effect on the listener.

THE COURT: That's my understanding. All righty.

(Continued on next page)

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(In open court; jury present)

THE COURT: I understand that we need to take a break

at this time, so we will do so. Remember that you're not

allowed to discuss the case amongst yourselves or with anyone

else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case in your

presence. Don't read, watch or listen to anything having to do

with this matter. We'll resume at noon.

THE LAW CLERK: Jury exiting.

(Jury not present)

THE COURT: Sir, you may step out. Don't discuss your

testimony.

(Witness temporarily excused)

THE COURT: You may be seated. Is there anything

further before we break?

MR. FINKEL: Not from the government.

MR. SCHIRICK: Not from the defense, your Honor.

Thank you.

THE COURT: All righty.

(Recess)

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AFTERNOON SESSION

12:00 p.m.

(Jury not present)

THE COURT: So the interpreters are telling me that

they cannot follow the very quick language because it's

technical and so I'd like you both to slow down.

MR. HORTON: Understood, your Honor.

THE COURT: Please get the jurors.

(Jury present)

THE COURT: Please be seated.

You may continue the inquiry.

MR. HORTON: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, before the break, you were describing a video

call you participated on in January 2023 with some people from

the Himalaya Exchange. Who from the Himalaya Exchange was on

that video call?

A. I recall that an individual I knew as Priya Patel attended

that video call.

Q. And were you able to see Ms. Patel on this call?

A. I do not recall being able to see Ms. Patel.

Q. And what, if anything, did you see?

A. A black screen.

Q. Were you able to see what, if anything, Ms. Patel was doing

during this video call?

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A. No.

Q. On this call with the exchange in January 2023, what, if

anything, did the exchange tell you about their blockchain

activity?

A. I don't recall a specific response about blockchain

activity other than the general discussion about the Himalaya

Dollar and the Himalaya Coin.

Q. And what, if anything, did the exchange tell you about

whether the Himalaya Dollar and the Himalaya Coin was backed by

gold?

A. I do not recall a response or any discussion about gold.

Q. And on this January 2023 video call, what, if anything, did

the exchange tell you about Miles Guo?

A. I recall that Bitgo had a question about Miles Guo and we

had a——received a response and had some discussion about Miles

Guo.

Q. And why at this stage in your account review did Bitgo have

a question about Miles Guo?

A. We had a question about Miles Guo because in the public

domain, through Google searches, we identified some news

articles and other information speculating about a connection

between Miles Guo and Himalaya Exchange.

Q. And what, if anything, did Ms. Patel or anyone else from

the Himalaya Exchange tell you on this call about employing

Miles Guo?

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A. I recall hearing from Ms. Patel that Himalaya Exchange had

no financial connection to Miles Guo.

Q. And what impact, if any, did that statement, that the

Himalaya Exchange had no financial connection with Miles Guo,

have on your review?

A. We——we noted it, and it was——it formed part of our analysis

as we continued the investigation.

Q. Mr. Roberts, on this call what information, if any, did you

ask for from the Himalaya Exchange about the Himalaya Dollar?

A. I recall we had some questions and a discussion on the——the

reserves and the backing of the Himalaya Dollar and that we

requested some documentation in connection to that.

MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you please pull up for

the witness what's been marked as Government Exhibit BR208A.

And if you could just go to its second page and then

back to its first.

Q. Mr. Roberts, what is this document?

A. I understand this document to be an independent

accountant's report issued by a company that I know as

Armanino.

Q. Have you seen it before?

A. Yes.

Q. And where did you see it?

A. I recall first seeing this when we received an email from

Ms. Patel containing attachments and documents that Bitgo had

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requested from her.

MR. HORTON: Your Honor, the government offers

Government Exhibit BR208A.

MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.

THE COURT: It is admitted.

(Government's Exhibit BR208A received in evidence)

MR. HORTON: If you could please publish it,

Ms. Loftus.

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, directing your attention to the top right

of the first page where it says Armanino, and you just

mentioned them. What was Armanino?

A. I am of the understanding that Armanino is an accounting

and auditing firm.

Q. And what's the title of this document?

A. The title is Independent Accountant's Report.

MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, if you could take us to the

second page, please. And if you could zoom in at the top of

the document above the word Notes.

Q. Now at the top left of this page, Mr. Roberts, it says

Himalaya International Reserve. At this point in your review

what, if anything, did you understand that Himalaya

International Reserve was?

A. I don't recall having an immediate finding about that piece

of information.

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Q. And the top middle of the page says Himalaya Dollar Bank &

Fund Holdings Report, and there's a date of July 31, 2022.

What did you understand this information to represent?

A. I understood that this information pertains to the reserves

and currency behind the Himalaya Dollar.

Q. And the top line with the number next to it says "U.S.

dollars held in Himalaya-owned bank accounts." What's the

value next to that line item, Mr. Roberts?

A. $401,163,865.60.

Q. And Mr. Roberts, what, if anything, did this Armanino

report that the Himalaya Exchange gave you say about gold

reserves for the Himalaya Dollar?

A. I do not recall making a finding about gold reserves on

this document.

Q. The line below this says, "HDO-denominated liabilities

issued," total. What did you understand that line to be?

A. I understood that this line was referring to the amount of

value that was giving Himalaya Dollar its stablecoin value.

Q. And how, if at all, did that compare to the amount of

Himalaya Dollar you had observed in your blockchain analysis?

A. I recall finding this number to not correspond to the

number of Himalaya Dollar cryptocurrency tokens that I believed

to be minted and in circulation.

Q. Remind us what you understood the number of Himalaya Dollar

to be minted and in circulation.

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A. I recall it being in the ballpark of 1 to 1.5 billion

units.

Q. And so what impact, if any, did that comparison between the

amount of Himalaya Dollar you'd observed minted and the amount

reflected in this report, what impact, if any, did that have on

your review of the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I recall finding that it posed questions as to whether the

Himalaya Dollar had a stable value to the U.S. dollar.

Q. And what do you mean that it posed questions about that?

A. What I mean about that is because this particular amount

and the amount of Himalaya dollars that I took to be in

circulation, those two amounts are different, and therefore how

can it——how can——if there are 1 to 1.5 billion Himalaya Dollar

cryptocurrency tokens in circulation, how can they be worth,

you know, individually 1 dollar when there isn't 1 dollar in

reserves backing that value.

Q. And that view, the question that you just described, how,

if at all, did that impact your analysis of Himalaya Dollar?

A. I recall making findings questioning the——whether it is

truly a stablecoin or not.

MR. HORTON: And the line that starts "Collateralized

HDO tokens on the Ethereum blockchain," if you can highlight

that, Ms. Loftus.

Q. What does that mean, "Collateralized HDO tokens on the

Ethereum blockchain"?

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A. I recall this appearing to refer to the Himalaya Dollar

cryptocurrency units that are viewable on the Ethereum

blockchain.

Q. What's the number next to that?

A. That number is 0.

Q. The line below that says "Collateralized HDO credits on

Himalaya ecosystem platforms." What do you understand that to

mean, Mr. Roberts?

A. I understood Himalaya Dollar credits to be a——a way that

the Himalaya Exchange exchange expressed Himalaya Dollar on

their——on their platform.

Q. And Himalaya ecosystem platforms, what understanding, if

any, did you have about what that was?

A. I recall taking this to be a reference to the Himalaya

Exchange.

Q. And what, if anything, was your understanding from this

document that the exchange provided you about whether HDO was

on the blockchain?

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that question.

Q. Yeah. What understanding, if any, did you have from this

document that the exchange gave you about whether HDO was on

the blockchain?

A. Well, I——I went back to my initial finding about the

Himalaya Dollar cryptocurrency that I could view on the

blockchain and——and I——I recall making a finding that there is

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a cryptocurrency called Himalaya Dollar on the blockchain.

Q. And so the value of 0 on the line item here for tokens

on——HDO tokens on the Ethereum blockchain, seeing that value of

0 reported to you by the exchange, what impact, if any, did

that have on your analysis of Himalaya Dollar?

A. It was——I recall it being another piece of information that

made me question whether the Himalaya Dollar that I could go

and view on the Ethereum blockchain is——meets the definition or

understanding of a stablecoin.

Q. And why does——

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

Q. Mr. Roberts, why did seeing, in this document that the

exchange gave you, that the number of HDO tokens on the

blockchain was 0 make you question whether it accorded with

your understanding of a stablecoin?

A. Because as I——I understood the total amount of Himalaya

Dollar in circulation to be in the range of 1 to 1.5 billion,

seeing this number 0 made me question whether that there

were——that——whether the Himalaya Dollar on the blockchain had

any value at all.

Q. And if it was reported to you by the exchange that the HDO

tokens were not on the blockchain, what understanding, if any,

did you have about where the HDO tokens actually were?

A. Well, I——I understood the HDO tokens that I could see in

the blockchain to still be on the blockchain.

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Q. And the HDO credits that are on the Himalaya ecosystem

platforms, what did you understand that to mean?

A. I recall taking the view that this was a reference, an

internal Himalaya Exchange reference to the Himalaya Dollar on

their platform.

Q. How does an internal platform, in your understanding,

compare to the blockchain?

A. An internal platform may choose to operate on a——a private

ledger that is not available to the public.

Q. And what do you mean by private ledger?

A. What I mean by that is——is maintaining customer account

balances, customer transactions on a document or a database

that is only, you know, viewable to——to that platform.

Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have about whether

the Himalaya Exchange operated an internal private ledger?

A. I recall taking the view that this information and other

information we learned about the Himalaya Dollar suggested that

that——that they were operating some type of private ledger to

track transactions, customer balances, and so forth.

Q. And what impact, if any, did your understanding that a

private ledger was being used have on your analysis of the

Himalaya Exchange?

A. I felt——I——I had the——I recall having the view that they

are operating a cryptocurrency exchange which has activity that

is tracked on a private ledger.

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Q. And what impact, if any, did that fact have on your view of

the exchange?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: The question is what impact did it have on

his recommendation to his company.

MR. HORTON: Yes, your Honor.

Q. Mr. Roberts, what impact, if any, did your understanding

that the Himalaya Exchange operated as an internal ledger have

on your recommendation to the company about its relationship

with the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I recall that being part of our analysis and findings when

we got together to discuss the findings from our investigation.

Q. And you say it was part of your analysis. What did it

contribute to your analysis?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I recall that it——that it assisted in our understanding of

how we thought that the Himalaya Exchange operated.

Q. And what is it about that fact, Mr. Roberts, the internal

ledger, that contributed to your analysis of the exchange? How

exactly was it relevant?

A. Well, it——to me, I took the understanding that transactions

were occurring on a private ledger, not in——available for

public viewing, so that the exchange, in combination with other

findings, may have been operating a sort of closed-loop system.

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Q. And what does it mean for purposes of——

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you said closed-loop system. What was the

effect on your analysis? Why was it relevant to you, the

finding that the exchange might be a closed-loop system?

A. I recall learning about transaction flows on the Himalaya

Exchange; I recall learning that customers of the Himalaya

Exchange were not able to withdraw H Coin or H Dollar; I also——

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to the hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

A. And I recall learning that Himalaya Exchange customers

typically funded their account with some type of U.S. dollar

transfer, such as——such as a wire transfer. These——these

aspects led me to the belief that any type of H Coin, H Dollar

activity on their exchange was all internal to their platform

and there was no H Coin or——or H Dollar transactions going

from, for example, the exchange to another platform on the

blockchain.

Q. And why did all that matter to your analysis?

A. That mattered to my analysis so I could understand

Himalaya's business model.

Q. Mr. Roberts, the observations you noted about Himalaya

Exchange appearing to be internal to you, what, if anything,

did that suggest to you for purposes of your analysis?

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MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

MR. HORTON: I can try it a different way, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

Q. The findings you've just listed, that customers were unable

to withdraw their coins from the exchange and that it appeared

to you that the exchange operated as an internal ledger, what,

if anything——

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

Q. ——was the implication? Why did you include that

information in the report?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: What was the purpose of preparing your

report?

THE WITNESS: The purpose of our preparing the report

was because we were conducting an account review into Himalaya

Exchange.

THE COURT: And your account review would have an

impact on what?

THE WITNESS: It would have an impact on whether we

felt that we had identified any financial crime red flags that

would be escalated to more senior compliance management.

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, what, if anything, was the relationship

between your finding that the Himalaya Exchange appeared to be

an internal ledger and the financial red flags that was the

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subject of your reporting?

A. I recall that this understanding that we had developed

played a part in——in the financial crime red flags we

identified and the subsequent escalation.

Q. And when you say it played a part, what part did it play?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. I recall finding that the exchange appeared to operate in a

way that I find abnormal.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

THE WITNESS: Sorry. Can I start just like a step

back.

THE COURT: Yes.

A. In a way that I find abnormal for cryptocurrency exchanges

to operate.

Q. And what is it about an internal ledger that you found

abnormal?

MR. SCHIRICK: Continuing objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. It's——it's not——to me, it's not the mere fact that it's an

internal ledger, it was that there was no corresponding

blockchain, very, very little corresponding blockchain

activity, but there was——still appeared to be a very high

market capitalization of H Coin, and it——it raised questions as

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to, you know, why it had such a large market capitalization.

Q. And what were the questions it raised about why H Coin's

market capitalization appeared so large?

MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. Please continue.

A. Going to what I talked about earlier, the math that we had

performed to roughly calculate the price of an H Coin that we

could see on the Himalaya Exchange versus the number of H Coin

we understood to be in circulation, we had ongoing questions as

to how H Coin could have such a significant market

capitalization.

Q. And Mr. Roberts, did you ever receive satisfactory answers

to those questions about H Coin and H Dollar?

A. I recall receiving responses and that some of them were not

satisfactory to Bitgo.

THE COURT: Could you explain what you mean by market

capitalization.

THE WITNESS: So I am referring to the aggregate value

of a cryptocurrency.

Q. Mr. Roberts, turning your focus to March of 2023, what, if

anything, happened that month that was relevant to your

investigation?

A. I recall becoming aware of an indictment that identified

Miles Guo, the Himalaya Exchange, and other parties that I was

familiar with.

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Q. And after you became aware of that indictment, when, if

ever, did you communicate again with the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I recall having further communication with Himalaya

Exchange personnel, a few days to a few weeks after that, the

date of that indictment.

Q. Who requested that communication; was it Bitgo or the

exchange?

A. I recall it being Himalaya Exchange who requested that

meeting.

Q. And who was on that call for the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I recall several people, including Priya Patel, an

individual Marios Mamzeris and some other Himalaya Exchange

people.

Q. And was this a video call?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you able to see the Himalaya Exchange participants?

A. I——I recall——I——I don't recall if I could see any or not.

Q. You said that Marios Mamzeris was on the call for the

Himalaya Exchange. What role did he have with the exchange, as

you understood it?

A. I understood that Mr. Mamzeris was in a senior corporate

position, such as chief operating officer.

Q. And what, if anything, did the exchange personnel say on

this call about H Coin?

MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.

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THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue. These

statements are not being offered for their truth; they're being

offered for the impact on the listener. Go ahead.

A. I——I don't recall a substantive discussion about H Coin on

this particular call.

Q. On this call what, if anything, did the exchange personnel

say about H Dollar?

A. I don't recall any specific discussion about H Dollar.

Q. Mr. Roberts, what did the exchange people talk about on

this call?

A. I recall Himalaya Exchange personnel wanting to flag to us

that there was an indictment against Miles Guo and the Himalaya

Exchange.

Q. And what, if anything, did they say to you on that call

about Miles Guo?

A. I recall a discussion, an explanation along the lines of

Miles Guo is innocent, nothing to hide, and things of that

nature.

Q. And who from the Himalaya Exchange was talking to you about

Miles Guo on this call?

A. I recall the call mostly being participated in by Priya

Patel.

Q. And you said that on the January call Ms. Patel told you

that Miles Guo had no financial connection to the exchange.

What understanding, if anything, did you have about why she was

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telling you he was innocent?

A. I recall thinking that the indictment, as I understood it,

allegedly tied Miles Guo to the Himalaya Exchange and that she

was looking to address this information.

Q. Mr. Roberts, did there come a time during your account

review that you spoke with the FBI?

A. Yes.

Q. And who initiated contact with the FBI?

A. I did.

Q. And why did you reach out to the FBI?

A. Bitgo decided to reach out to the FBI to notify them that

we had an account on our platform for the Himalaya Exchange and

whether closing that account would impede their investigation.

Q. And what, if anything, did the FBI direct you to do?

A. Nothing.

Q. And before you testified today, did you meet with the

government's lawyers?

A. Yes.

Q. About how many times?

A. Approximately five.

MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you please show the

witness what's been marked as Government Exhibit BR212.

And if you could scroll through it just towards the

bottom. You could just drag it down to the bottom and then

come up to the top, please. Thanks.

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BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, is this an email between Bitgo and personnel

at the Himalaya Exchange?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you a participant on this email exchange?

A. I am not.

Q. And when you were conducting your account review of the

Himalaya Exchange in 2023, did you review the contents of this

email exchange?

A. I recall reviewing aspects of this, this exchange.

MR. HORTON: And your Honor, the government offers

Government Exhibit BR212.

MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.

THE COURT: It is admitted.

(Government's Exhibit BR212 received in evidence)

MR. HORTON: Now, Ms. Loftus, if you could publish it,

and please navigate down to the email that's dated Friday,

March 10, 2023, 12:22 p.m. It's a little bit more than halfway

down the page.

Sorry. There it is.

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, this email says that——on Friday, March 10,

2023, Marios Mamzeris wrote, "Thanks for your quick reply.

Please find the answers below." Just remind us, Mr. Roberts,

who Marios Mamzeris is.

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A. I understood Marios Mamzeris to be the COO of Himalaya

Exchange.

MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, if you can scroll down to the

email immediately below that, please, and if you can get the

content to the answer to question 4 on the screen, please.

Q. Mr. Roberts——

MR. HORTON: Oh, I'm sorry, Ms. Loftus. You can

scroll up so that the to/from date is visible.

Q. Mr. Roberts, who sent this email?

A. This was from a person called Can Unsal.

Q. And what role did Can Unsal have at Bitgo?

A. Can was a customer success manager.

MR. HORTON: And Ms. Loftus, if you could look at the

third line of text here.

Q. It says, "I'm getting some questions internally which are

blocking our overall progress and need to ask your team's help

to settling these inquiries." Do you know what it means,

"questions internally"?

A. I would take this as a reference to questions that Bitgo

personnel have about the Himalaya Exchange.

Q. There are four questions in the email below. And what

role, if any, Mr. Roberts, did you have in developing these

questions?

A. I recall contributing to the composition of these

questions.

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Q. Taking a look at the first question, Mr. Roberts, "Himalaya

claims to keep 95 percent of their funds in cold storage." Was

that claim true?

A. I recall, based on the information available to me about

the Himalaya Coin and Himalaya Dollar, I questioned whether

this was accurate or not.

Q. And of the Himalaya Exchange coins that were kept in Bitgo

wallets, how many were in cold storage?

A. Himalaya's cold storage account was——was never funded. It

had 0 balance.

Q. Looking at the second question, "Why is it that only

'collateralized HDO credits' are backed and audited? Why does

HDO need to exist if it cannot be withdrawn off-platform?" Why

was Bitgo asking that question?

A. Around this time Himalaya Exchange had submitted a request

to Bitgo that——for support of a cryptocurrency that I knew as

Himalaya Euro.

Q. And the second question in line 2, "Why does HDO need to

exist if it cannot be withdrawn off-platform?" can you explain

that to the jury. Why did the inability to withdraw it off the

platform prompt Bitgo to ask why does it need to exist?

A. Because we had questions about the nature of Himalaya

Dollar and Himalaya Coin, when it came to reviewing this third

cryptocurrency, Himalaya Euro, we were attempting to do some

due diligence to assess whether it was, you know, eligible for

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us to support on that platform.

Q. And Mr. Roberts, the fact that HDO cannot be withdrawn

off-platform, what's the connection between that part of the

question and why does HDO need to exist?

A. Because of the reference to collateralized HDO credits. I

take this to be something that likely exists on a private

ledger that could be tracked on something that Himalaya

Exchange controls and is privy to. My findings I recall at

this time were if these collateralized HDO credits exist, you

know, what is the purpose of Himalaya Dollar, if it——if you've

already got those——credit system in place.

Q. And did you ever develop a satisfactory understanding of

what the purpose was of Himalaya Dollar?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Whether he obtained an explanation to his

satisfaction; is that what you're asking?

MR. HORTON: I can ask a different question, your

Honor.

Q. Was it relevant to your ultimate recommendation, the

question you just mentioned, whether HDO had a purpose?

A. I recall it being relevant.

Q. And by the time you made your final recommendation, what

understanding did you have about HDO's purpose?

A. I recall maintaining ongoing concerns as to the purpose and

existence of HDO.

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Q. Looking at the first sentence of the answer to question 2

from the Himalaya Exchange, and it says, "We are launching

crypto capabilities soon for our coins." What understanding do

you have about that answer?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

A. I recall that we had some questions and a discussion with

Priya Patel on our first video call in January 2023 when we

were trying to learn about the mechanics of their platform

so——and that there was no ability for their customers to fund

their accounts for the cryptocurrency transaction or withdraw

cryptocurrency from their platform. I took this reference to

suggest that they were looking to develop that capability but

it did not exist at——at that time.

Q. And how did your understanding that the Himalaya Exchange

did not have crypto capabilities in March of 2023 inform your

ultimate recommendation?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Mr. Roberts, the question was: How did your understanding

that as of March 2023 the Himalaya Exchange did not have crypto

capabilities, how did that inform your recommendation?

A. I recall that it was part of the——the contribution to

our——our finding that their exchange seemed to be closed-loop,

operating kind of on a private ledger.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to findings.

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THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

A. Sorry. Can I——can you ask that again, please.

Q. Yeah. Mr. Roberts, the question was: How did your

understanding that as of March 2023 the Himalaya Exchange did

not have crypto capabilities——how did your understanding of

that inform your ultimate recommendation?

A. Due to the private ledger/closed-loop system that I had

developed an understanding of, this fed into one of the ongoing

red flags that we had when we concluded our——our account

review.

Q. And Mr. Roberts, now just looking at question 4 briefly, it

says, "If only HDO credits can be used to purchase HCN, then

what else is causing HCN's multibillion market cap?" Part of

the answer is, "We have thousands of supporters globally, thus

the success of HCN."

MR. SCHIRICK: Is there a question?

THE COURT: The question is coming.

Q. The question is: "We have thousands of supporters

globally, thus the success of HCN," what understanding, if any,

does that give you about what's causing HCN's multibillion

market cap, the question that Bitgo asked?

A. I recall not finding this sentence to be particularly

relevant to that question.

MR. HORTON: You can take this one down, Ms. Loftus.

Q. Mr. Roberts, after you concluded your review of Himalaya

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Exchange, what recommendation did you ultimately make?

A. I recall recommending that the Himalaya Exchange's account

and relationship with Bitgo be escalated and considered for

termination.

Q. And was the Himalaya Exchange ultimately terminated by

Bitgo?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Roberts, was there one reason or multiple reasons for

your recommendation to terminate the relationship with the

Himalaya Exchange?

A. For me, the primary reason is that we identified financial

crime red flags and we did not receive or identify satisfactory

information in order to mitigate those financial crime red

flags.

MR. HORTON: Your Honor, could I just have one moment.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. HORTON: Thank you, your Honor.

Q. Mr. Roberts, based on your review of the exchange, was H

Coin or H Dollar, as you saw it, available anywhere else other

than the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I recall after performing research that I did not identify

another cryptocurrency exchange or platform that offered H Coin

or H Dollar for——for trading.

MR. HORTON: No further questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: Cross-examination?

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MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Roberts.

I just wanted to go back to an earlier part of your

testimony. I believe you testified on direct a bit about your

preparation for today. Do you recall that?

A. I did.

Q. And in the process of preparing for today, did you review

documents that were provided to you by the government?

A. The government did not provide me with any documents.

Q. Okay. Did you——did you review documents that your employer

assembled for you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And just describe to me, how were those documents

kept, if you would? Is there a system or systems that Bitgo

uses to archive materials?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Can you just describe that for me for a second.

A. I——I——we use industry-standard databases and file storage

systems.

Q. Okay. Did you use Salesforce?

A. Yes.

Q. To log client communications or preserve client

communications?

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A. That is one way to log and preserve client communications.

Q. Okay. And how about G Suite, was that another one?

A. Can you clarify that a little bit.

Q. Sure. Did Bitgo use G Suite in order to preserve documents

and records that ultimately you ended up reviewing in

connection with your testimony?

A. Is G Suite a reference to Google?

Q. I believe so. Yes.

A. Bitgo uses systems and software provided by Google to

maintain records.

Q. Okay. Okay. All right. Now I just want to ask you some

general questions, if that's okay.

You testified on direct about certain transactions

that happened on the blockchain, right?

A. I——I testified about blockchain transactions.

Q. Right. And then there's some transactions that can happen

off the blockchain, right, which you testified about?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And transactions that occur on the blockchain are

called on-chain transactions, right?

A. I understand them to be referred to that.

Q. Okay. And those transactions are publicly visible on the

blockchain.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And when it comes to off-chain transactions, those

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transactions are not publicly visible, right?

A. That is my understanding.

Q. Okay. And in Bitgo's work, and line of work, it only

really deals with on-chain transactions, right?

A. Bitgo has some products and services that may interface

with off-chain transactions.

Q. Okay. Well, as relevant here, for the Himalaya Exchange,

Bitgo only provided on-chain transaction services, right?

A. Yes. The wallet services Himalaya was utilizing pertains

to on-chain transactions only.

Q. Okay. And are there some——when it comes to cryptocurrency

exchanges, is it possible to have off-chain transactions, in

your experience at Bitgo?

A. I am of the understanding that it is possible for

cryptocurrency exchanges to have off-chain transactions.

Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the cryptocurrency exchange

Coinbase?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And Coinbase, would you consider that a centralized

exchange?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And based on your experience at Bitgo, does a

centralized exchange conduct cryptocurrency transactions

off-chain?

A. Yes, that is my understanding.

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Q. Okay. That's because they occur within a wallet, if I

understand it correctly——and you'll tell me if I get it wrong,

but——they occur within a wallet that belongs to the

cryptocurrency exchange, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so viewed from the outside on the blockchain, one can't

see what's happening inside that wallet, right?

A. If the transaction is off-chain, yes.

Q. Right. And that's the——thank you for that clarification.

That's what I mean. A transaction that's off-chain, that's

happening within the cryptocurrency exchange's wallet, that's

not visible from the outside; that's all.

A. Yes, that is my understanding.

Q. Okay. And in fact, Coinbase, as a centralized exchange,

operates largely in that fashion, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection.

MR. SCHIRICK: Based on his experience.

MR. HORTON: Objection. He doesn't work for Coinbase.

There's no foundation.

THE COURT: Do you want to step up.

(Continued on next page)

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(At the sidebar)

MR. HORTON: I objected because the questions are

about Coinbase. Coinbase is a separate operation that has

nothing to do with where Mr. Roberts works.

THE COURT: So the witness was asked about the subject

matter of the trial, not about Coinbase.

MR. SCHIRICK: Well, I believe the witness was asked

questions on direct about on-chain and off-chain transactions,

and asked extensively about what——what he couldn't see

happening inside the Himalaya Exchange wallet, and so I'm

drawing that parallel, your Honor, to his understanding based

on his experience at this company, which is the foundation for

his testimony, about what happens at Coinbase as a point of

comparison.

MR. HORTON: The objection was just that there is no

foundation for his knowledge about Coinbase.

THE COURT: All right. So you'll ask him whether he

knows how Coinbase operates.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. I believe I asked a question

close to that, but I'll firm it up, your Honor. Thank you.

THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, the interpreter team is

asking your Honor, requesting your Honor to inform all parties

to slow down the pace, and pause, if possible. Thank you.

THE COURT: Please, yes, everyone, slow down.

MR. SCHIRICK: Understood. Thank you.

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(In open court)

THE COURT: All righty. So the questions and the

answers, please speak more slowly.

MR. SCHIRICK: Understood, your Honor.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. So Mr. Roberts, I believe I asked you before about whether

you have a general understanding of the way that Coinbase

operates.

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the fact——and you'll

correct me if I'm wrong——that Coinbase is a centralized

exchange, right?

A. I——I understand them to have centralized exchange service

offerings.

Q. Okay. And so when Coinbase conducts a transaction on its

centralized exchange, that transaction happens inside of a

wallet that is on the blockchain, correct?

A. It——it could. I——it could.

Q. Okay. And certainly there could be other transactions, to

the point I think you're trying to make, that could happen off,

you know——on the blockchain where Coinbase is sending something

out of its wallet, to be clear.

A. Yes, that is my understanding.

Q. Okay. But in the main, when it conducts a——or executes a

trade for clients, that itself, that transaction itself,

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happens inside its wallet.

A. Assuming it's through the centralized exchange service

offering, I'm not entirely aware of every type of product they

have.

Q. But you're aware that it does have centralized exchange

offerings.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And again, really my principal question here is, in

that case, viewed from the outside, viewed from the perspective

of the blockchain, one cannot see the transaction that's

happening inside Coinbase's wallet, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. On the basis it's an off-chain transaction, a viewer of the

blockchain would not be, would not be aware that that

transaction took place.

Q. Okay. And so based on your review and understanding of the

Himalaya Exchange, would you agree that the Himalaya Exchange

was a centralized operation?

A. Yes, I would agree with that.

Q. Okay. And therefore, one would not necessarily expect to

be able to see from the blockchain all the transactions that

were happening inside the Himalaya Exchange's wallet.

MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: You may answer.

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A. Sorry. Can you please repeat that again.

Q. Yeah.

MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry. I'm sorry to burden the

court reporter, but could we have that read back.

(Record read)

A. I would clarify that the transactions were not necessarily

occurring in the wallet, but the transactions could be

off-chain.

Q. Okay. So, fair enough. If——they may be in the wallet or

they may be off-chain, but in either case, there wouldn't

be——that wouldn't be something you could see from outside.

A. Yes.

Q. Right. You would need the records of the exchange itself

to be able to tell what transactions were happening inside that

wallet, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that wasn't something that you had access to,

obviously, given limitations on information available to you.

A. Bitgo did not have internal Himalaya transactions available

to us.

Q. Okay.

THE COURT: So your question was, that would be

something you could not see; is that correct?

MR. SCHIRICK: I believe that was my question, your

Honor.

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THE COURT: Okay.

MR. SCHIRICK: Yes.

THE COURT: I just wanted to clarify that, because the

transcription did not include a not.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: You may continue.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Okay. Now you testified on direct that Bitgo offers a

couple of different products by way of wallets, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. It offers I think what you called a hot wallet,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And can you just describe a hot wallet for the jury,

please.

A. I understand a hot wallet is a cryptocurrency wallet that

is connected to the internet.

Q. And another one of the offerings from Bitgo is a custodial

wallet, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And what's the difference between a custodial wallet

and a hot wallet?

A. On the Bitgo platform, our hot wallet offerings are

noncustodial, so the user of the hot wallet maintains control.

Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that there are a number of

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Bitgo's clients who use only one kind of wallet or the other?

A. I——I've seen Bitgo customers use one or the other

previously, yes.

Q. Okay. So there's——there's nothing sort of on its face

unusual about a client using only hot wallet services, for

example.

A. That could be typical.

Q. Okay. Now let's just talk for a second about——again, this

is based on your experience at Bitgo——when you have a

cryptocurrency token that is on the blockchain, can anyone look

that up to confirm that it's on the blockchain?

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that, please.

Q. Sure. When you have a cryptocurrency token on a public

blockchain, can anyone look it up to confirm that it's on the

public blockchain?

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor. Is this about

what was in the scope of Mr. Roberts's review?

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I believe Mr. Roberts

testified that he looked up both of the cryptocurrencies at

issue to see that they were on the blockchain. That's what I'm

getting at.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. Yes. If a——if a cryptocurrency is on the blockchain, on a

public blockchain, my understanding is that a viewer of that

blockchain should be able to see that cryptocurrency.

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Q. Okay. And for those of us who aren't fully initiated in

the crypto world, how do you go about doing that?

A. We can use a block explorer, which is publicly accessible

through the internet; and at Bitgo we can use internal systems

or software provided by vendors.

Q. Okay. And is there something called Etherscan that you're

familiar with?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And could someone use Etherscan to do the lookup we

were just talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And are you——is one able to see the code that is

associated with the individual wallet on using the tools that

you just described?

A. You can obtain information about individual wallets on——on

a——on the Etherscan.

Q. Okay. And can you do the same thing with respect to

cryptocurrency tokens?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And is that in fact part of what Bitgo does when it

conducts due diligence on prospective customers or current

customers?

A. It is a step we may take.

Q. Okay. And is it in fact, if you know, a step that was

taken when it comes to HCN?

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A. Can you clarify if you're referring to the 2021 review or

2022 review.

Q. Sure. Well, let's take them piece by piece.

Do you know whether that was part of the diligence

that was conducted in 2021?

A. I recall performing searches to understand its——its state,

and I——I understood that it was yet to be launched or

available.

Q. Okay. And then because we have a couple of

cryptocurrencies at issue, I'm just going to go one by one.

So when it comes to HCN, for the later period of time,

was there a check conducted at that point?

A. On Etherscan?

Q. Or equivalent.

A. Yes. I recall referring to——to block explorers and

performing searches.

Q. Okay. And at that point——withdrawn.

Approximately when was that review that you just

referred to?

A. It was initiated in the fall of 2022.

Q. Okay. So in the fall of 2022 when you looked up HCN on the

blockchain, did you find it?

A. I——I recall finding information I was looking for.

Q. Okay. And when you say the information you were looking

for, you found the token on the blockchain.

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And now let's do the same set of questions with

respect to HDO.

So in 2021 did you look up HDO on the blockchain using

any of the tools that you described?

A. Yes, I——I recall performing the similar review to what I

did with HCN with respect to HDO.

Q. Okay. And what did you find?

A. I also found that it appeared to be in a, you know,

prelaunch or yet-to-be-active state.

Q. Okay. Thanks.

And then with respect to the fall of 2022, did you

conduct the same review when it comes to HDO?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And what did you find?

A. That when I went on Etherscan or its equivalent, that——that

I found information about that cryptocurrency token.

Q. And that it was on the blockchain, it existed on the

blockchain.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now the first time that you conducted diligence

concerning the Himalaya Exchange——I'm sorry. Withdrawn.

I believe you testified on direct that the first time

you conducted diligence with respect to the Himalaya Exchange

was in April of 2021, or thereabouts?

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A. The diligence was focused on the cryptocurrencies Himalaya

Dollar and Himalaya Coin. However, I recall considering

Himalaya Exchange because of their connection.

Q. Okay. And that was part of an onboarding process with

Bitgo; is that fair to say?

A. This review was specific to the request to onboard Himalaya

Dollar and Himalaya Coin.

Q. Okay. And in addition to onboarding Himalaya Dollar and

Himalaya Coin——withdrawn.

When you say onboarding Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya

Coin, you mean that Bitgo is going to provide the wallet

services for Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin, right? Am I

correct in that understanding?

A. Yes. It's——it's the ability for Bitgo wallets to receive,

hold, and send those cryptocurrencies in Bitgo wallets.

Q. Okay. And if you could just briefly describe for us what

the steps are in terms of the diligence that's conducted as

part of that onboarding process.

A. Can you clarify if it's specific to my review or the wider

diligence process?

Q. Why don't we just talk about the wider diligence process,

and then I may ask you more specifically about your review.

A. Sure. The wider diligence process is——my understanding is

that it is seeking to understand the background, the

composition, the purpose of a cryptocurrency.

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Q. Okay. And then when it comes to your review, could you

also please explain that process.

A. Yes. My review is specific to performing an anti-money

laundering due diligence review. I understand this process to

refer to researching the cryptocurrencies to see if there are

any financial crime red flags.

Q. Okay. And as part of that financial crime red flag

analysis, did someone at Bitgo, to your knowledge, analyze the

code for HCN and HDO?

A. I do not recall performing a code analysis in connection

with the anti-money laundering due diligence review.

Q. Okay. Do you know whether some other part of Bitgo did

that, someone else at Bitgo did that?

A. I do not specifically recall whether that took place or

not.

Q. Okay. Now is it——am I correct in assuming that as part of

this April 2021 onboarding process that the Himalaya Exchange

provided a variety of information to Bitgo for its evaluation?

A. Are you talking about the consideration of opening an

account for Himalaya Exchange on the Bitgo platform?

Q. Yes. Fair enough. You've drawn a distinction between the

tokens and the exchange, and I dropped that. So yes, my

question is: When it comes to onboarding those tokens, did the

exchange representatives provide Bitgo with information for its

evaluation?

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A. I recall references to white paper, white papers for the

Himalaya Dollar——Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin, so yes,

I——I recall them submitting information.

Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

Okay. And then you had——did you and your team have

access to those materials?

A. I——I don't——I recall that I had access to it in some way,

whether it was going to the Himalaya website or——or internally.

Q. Okay. But either way, you recall having access to it,

including the white paper.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So let me just show that to you briefly.

MR. SCHIRICK: If we could please bring up Government

Exhibit BR190, just for the parties and the witness.

Q. Are you able to see that on your screen?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And do you recognize that document?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And do you recognize it as the Himalaya Dollar White

Paper Version 1.0 dated April 2021?

A. Yes.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Defense moves——I'm sorry. I

didn't give it a number.

Oh, no, I did give it a number. Apologies. So we

move Government Exhibit BR190 into evidence.

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MR. HORTON: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Would you step up.

(At the sidebar)

THE COURT: So this is a document prepared by Himalaya

Exchange?

MR. SCHIRICK: Yes.

THE COURT: And how does it come in?

MR. SCHIRICK: So it's one of the materials, one of

the many materials that he reviewed at the time and relied on

as part of his work at Bitgo, and he——and, you know, your

Honor, it's being——we're going to take him through it to ask

him if he saw certain things in it at the time and if he

remembers those things.

THE COURT: So you're offering it for the truth?

MR. SCHIRICK: It's not being offered for the truth.

MR. HORTON: We disagree with that, your Honor. We

think it's——

MR. KAMARAJU: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you.

MR. HORTON: We disagree with that. We think the

purpose of walking through these Himalaya Exchange out-of-court

statements is to show the jury that Himalaya Exchange was

saying things and implying that it's true.

MR. KAMARAJU: That's not the purpose of it, and also,

the government just did this exact same thing on direct, where

they introduced the auditor's report of Armanino on the basis

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it was a document this witness relied on. So this is a

Himalaya Exchange marketing material. We're not offering it

for the truth but merely offering it for the fact that this is

what Himalaya Exchange was saying about its product, which is,

frankly, a central issue in the case. So I don't know——

THE COURT: They're entitled to a defense. I'm going

to let it in.

MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, if we may, if your Honor lets

it in, the government requests a limiting instruction, to

instruct the jury that these documents are not offered for the

truth of those statements, it's offered for the effect on the

listener.

MS. SHROFF: Then the limiting instruction should

include the prior document that the government introduced on

direct.

THE COURT: You didn't ask for a limiting instruction.

MS. SHROFF: We didn't, your Honor.

THE COURT: So——

MR. FINKEL: If you want to say that the Armanino

document is false, that's fine.

(Continued on next page)

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(In open court)

MR. SCHIRICK: So we move the document.

THE COURT: Members of the jury, this document is not

being offered for the truth of what's being stated in that

document, only for its effect on the witness.

Let's go. It's admitted.

(Government's Exhibit BR190 received in evidence)

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Okay. So as we covered before, this is——you recognize this

as the Himalaya Dollar white paper from April of 2021, right?

A. Yes.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. And if we could please scroll

to, I believe it's page 10.

I apologize. It's page 9 of the pdf, 7 of the

document, if that helps.

Q. Okay. Now do you see in the middle of the page paragraph

beginning, "If the market for HDO Credits"?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. You see, it says, "If the market for HDO Credits

experiences significant liquidity shortfall, the issuer will

have the ability to use funds in the Reserve to provide

liquidity support"?

A. Yes.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. And if we could now just go to

the next page, please.

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And if we could highlight that first arrow, so to

speak, that's marked 01.

Q. And now before I ask you about this, Mr. Roberts, I believe

you testified earlier that at the point in time, April 2021,

your understanding was that the exchange and the tokens were at

a prelaunch stage, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so that is, they were not operating yet, they were

still being built.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And so if we can then just look at point 1 here, it

says, "The Himalaya Exchange Prelaunch & Launch of HDO.

Private Placement Participants may apply to open a Himalaya

Exchange account and complete KYC procedures. Following

opening of an account, Private Placement Participants may top

up their account by purchasing Himalaya Dollar credits with USD

on a 1:1 ratio," right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now do you recall that at the time of your initial

evaluation of the tokens that the exchange informed Bitgo that

HDO was based on a credit system?

A. I do not recall a notification that I was aware of.

Q. Does looking at this document refresh your recollection

that Himalaya Exchange made that disclosure?

A. Looking at this——I recognize broadly the content in the

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document.

Q. Okay. Does it refresh your memory that that was something

that was disclosed to Bitgo at the time?

A. I——I don't recall it being disclosed to Bitgo, like, by a

person.

Q. Well, it can be——disclosures can happen lots of different

ways, right? You can have a disclosure that comes through a

document, right?

A. It could.

Q. And you testified earlier that this document was among the

documents that Bitgo reviewed in connection——reviewed in April

of 2021 in connection with onboarding the tokens, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that the credit system for HDO

was disclosed to Bitgo back in April of 2021?

A. Yes.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. If we could go back to the

previous page just for a moment.

It's the third paragraph up from the bottom beginning,

"In addition." If we could blow that up, please.

Q. Okay. The document says, "In addition to the trading

solution benefits, HDO Credits are also designed for use

through the Himalaya Pay App. The Himalaya Pay App, which will

be launched during Phase 3, will allow members to use HDO

Credits to offer domestic and cross-border payments to

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merchants who accept payment for goods or services through

Himalaya Pay within the Himalaya Ecosystem ('the Himalaya

Ecosystem'). Members will also be able to make transfers of

HDO Credits from their Himalaya Pay account to the Himalaya Pay

accounts of other members." Did I read that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Does this——well, withdrawn.

Do you recall that in April of 2021, the Himalaya

Exchange disclosed to Bitgo that HDO Credits were part of an

overall plan to also have a payment app?

A. I recall seeing this reference to Himalaya Pay App.

Q. Okay. And what do you understand the Himalaya Pay App to

be a reference to?

A. I recall that Himalaya was looking at a better product

along the lines of payments.

Q. And payments, to your understanding, would mean that

the——that either HD——that either HDO Credits or HDO would be

moving on the Himalaya platform, right?

A. Yes.

Q. It says "within the Himalaya Ecosystem," right?

A. It does.

Q. Right. And just, again, to return to the earlier

conversation we had, that would be something that was not

visible to Bitgo from the outside, right?

A. Yes, I——I would take that to be an off-chain movement.

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Q. Okay. And then the last sentence there, saying, "Members

will also be able to," you see that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. Do you understand that to mean that users will be

able to transfer HDO Credits between and among themselves,

separate and apart from using a payment system?

A. I took this to mean that HDO Credits could move from one

Himalaya Pay account to——to the other.

Q. And one——one user to another within a single wallet, right?

A. Yes, within the——the platform or ecosystem of Himalaya.

Q. Which was housed in that one wallet, to your understanding.

A. I——I'm not sure if I would say it was necessarily housed in

the wallet, but——but an off-chain system.

Q. Okay. Fair enough. That's a fair point.

So in an off-chain system in a way that would not be

visible from the outside, whether it was that wallet or some

other wallet.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Can we please go to page of the

document 11, 13 of the pdf. And we're just going to highlight

Exchange of HDO Credits.

Q. Okay. So here it says, "Exchange of HDO Credits. A member

may make a request to the Himalaya Exchange to exchange HDO

Credits for an equivalent amount in U.S. dollars. Where the

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Himalaya Exchange accepts such a request, it will accept a

transfer of such HDO Credits in exchange for an equivalent

amount in U.S. dollars from the Reserve to be paid to the bank

account of the member.

"The issuer is not oblig[at]ed to provide liquidity

support and the Himalaya Exchange is not oblig[at]ed to agree

to any request from a member to exchange HDO Credits for U.S.

dollars and such actions are at the sole discretion of the

issuer and the Himalaya Exchange respectively. Members do not

have any direct or indirect claim on the issuer or the

Reserve."

Now do you understand the second paragraph here to

mean that there was no——that the exchange was disclosing that

there was no guarantee that it would be able to provide HDO

holders with U.S. dollars at the time of redemption,

necessarily?

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.

MR. SCHIRICK: Asking for his understanding.

MR. HORTON: It's testimony.

THE COURT: You need to break this down.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay.

Q. Let's actually start with the first paragraph.

In the first paragraph, do you understand that the

exchange is disclosing here that it will exchange HDO Credits

for U.S. dollars from the reserve that it has?

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And in the second paragraph, do you understand the

exchange to be saying that there is no guarantee that it will

be able to do that upon demand and that it will happen at its

discretion?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Thank you.

MR. SCHIRICK: Could we please just go back to,

briefly, page 10 of the pdf, page 8 of document.

I'm sorry. The one that we were looking at before. I

may have the wrong page number, but the one that we were

looking at before with the arrows entitled Rollout. I think

it's——there it is. Great. Thank you.

And if we could just zoom in on the arrows a little

bit. Great. Thanks.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. So do you see here the bit of a——a bit of a flow chart of

the various phases of the rollout of the Himalaya Exchange and

its proposed services?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And we read before the first arrow there about

prelaunch and launch of HDO, right?

A. We did.

Q. Okay. And that's just Phase 1, right?

A. That is my understanding.

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Q. Okay. And then Phase 2 is the launch of the Himalaya Coin,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's HCN, as we've been referring to it.

A. Yes, that is my understanding.

Q. Okay. And then Phase 3 is the launch of the Himalaya Pay

App, you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And what's called "the full Himalaya Exchange"?

A. I do.

Q. And underneath that it says, "Members may commence trading

HDO, HCN, and other crypto asset credits through their

account"?

A. Yes, I can see that.

Q. Okay. And finally, the fourth arrow says Himalaya Exchange

App Launch. Do you see that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. And so does this——is it fair to say that this lays

out several phases of the rollout of the Himalaya Exchange that

were——

MR. HORTON: Objection to relevance.

Q. ——that were planned over time?

THE COURT: Sorry. Are you asking him whether the

document states that?

MR. SCHIRICK: It is his understanding that this

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explains the rollout of various services that Himalaya Exchange

intended to provide over time.

THE COURT: So the document speaks for itself.

MR. SCHIRICK: I'm just looking for the witness's

understanding, your Honor, on this.

THE COURT: If the question is what does it say,

that's one thing. You're asking him whether he understands

that that is what it says?

MR. SCHIRICK: I'm asking if that's his understanding

of the document, of what is disclosed here.

THE COURT: Okay. I don't understand the question.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Did you understand, based on the materials we just looked

at, that there was going to be a phased rollout of different

services by the Himalaya Exchange?

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.

MR. SCHIRICK: That's okay. I'll move on, your Honor.

That's fine.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Okay. Now none of what you reviewed in this document at

the time was a red flag for Bitgo, right?

A. Yes. We——we did not find any red flags at that time.

Q. Okay. All right. Now you were asked some questions

earlier about Bitgo's investigation, internal investigation; is

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that right? I'm sorry. Withdrawn.

You were asked some questions earlier about an

investigation that Bitgo started after receiving a subpoena

from the government, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And did Bitgo receive that request from the

prosecutors in this case?

A. I recall that subpoena was received from——from one of them.

Q. Okay. And that prior to that, did Bitgo have any concerns

regarding the exchange?

A. I do not recall having any concerns regarding the exchange.

Q. Okay. And the exchange——I'm sorry. Bitgo hadn't received

any complaints about the exchange, to your knowledge?

A. I do not recall becoming aware of any complaints about the

exchange prior to the receipt of the subpoena.

Q. And that was about 18 months in between the April 2021

onboarding and when you received the subpoena, right?

A. Yes, approximately.

Q. Okay. Now you were asked on direct whether the government

required Bitgo to conduct the account review. Do you recall

that?

A. I recall being asked that question.

Q. Okay. And you said——and your answer was no, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And is it Bitgo's policy to conduct an account

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review if it receives a subpoena from the government?

A. It is a typical procedure that we follow when we receive a

subpoena.

Q. Okay. And I believe you testified that when you started

that account review, you found some things, found additional

information that was not available to you at the time you

conducted the initial due diligence in April 2021, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And among those things were the subsequent white

papers for HCN and HDO?

A. I can't recall if they were different white papers.

Q. Okay. But you found whatever white papers existed at that

time and reviewed those as part of your account review, right?

A. Yes. We——we identified the white paper material and

reviewed it.

Q. Okay. And if there were a more recent white paper, you

would have reviewed that, right? That would have been your

practice.

A. On the basis that what was available to me, yes.

Q. Okay. Now I think you also testified that you believed

that you found that there were——it was publicly available

information that there were 1.5 billion HDO; is that right?

A. In——in that ballpark. I don't recall the specific number.

Q. Okay. Fair enough. Approximately 1.5 billion HDO.

A. Approximately. Around, in that range.

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Q. Okay. And at the time that you were conducting this

account review was there any——there wasn't anything that you

found that indicated that the Himalaya Exchange wasn't still in

the early stage of development, right?

A. I don't recall making a finding that they were still in

development.

Q. Do you recall that the——that finding the existence of H

Pay, for example, at the time?

A. I recall reviewing their website, and I don't recall a

specific reference to H Pay.

Q. Okay. Did you have any reason to believe that the exchange

wasn't still in its early stages of development in the fall of

2022?

A. I——I——I did not.

Q. Okay. Now you testified earlier that there were a number

of things that you believe you found that were quote-unquote

red flags, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And one of those I think you testified was that

there was a significant increase in the price of HCN?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you said that you observed reports about the

increase in the price of HCN. Was that from the internet?

A. Yes.

Q. From Google searches, that kind of thing?

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now based on your experience at Bitgo is it

sometimes the case that there are bubbles in the prices of

digital assets?

A. Can you clarify the term "bubble."

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: So what does "bubble" mean?

MR. SCHIRICK: A sharp run-up in the prices of assets

that later deflate to some extent.

THE COURT: You're asking whether he's observed that

as part of his job?

MR. SCHIRICK: Correct.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I recall observing fluctuating prices of cryptocurrencies

over time.

Q. And that's something of a feature of the cryptocurrency

space, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor. Goes beyond the

scope of the investigation.

THE COURT: You can answer.

A. My understanding is that cryptocurrencies typically have a

fluctuating value.

Q. Right. And they can be volatile, right?

A. Their price could——could go up and down, absolutely.

Q. Okay. And are you familiar with the term "irrational

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exuberance"?

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Now we're getting

far afield.

Q. Okay. You also testified that another of the red flags

that you believed you observed was that there was a

concentration of ownership of the digital assets, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And as we talked about a little while ago with

respect to the centralized nature of the Himalaya

Exchange——withdrawn.

We talked earlier about the centralized nature of the

Himalaya Exchange, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And because it was centralized, wouldn't you expect

to see all of the assets in a concentrated fashion with the

exchange?

A. I would not necessarily expect to see nearly 100 percent of

a cryptocurrency in a single wallet.

Q. But in fact, you would expect to see high concentrations,

right?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SCHIRICK: I believe he testified he wouldn't

necessarily expect to see that, so my follow-up question is to

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understand the "necessarily" part of the answer.

MR. HORTON: Same objection.

THE COURT: His answer was "not necessarily."

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Okay. Regardless of concentration, you wouldn't

expect——with a centralized exchange like Himalaya, you wouldn't

expect to see a large number of on-chain transactions; is that

fair to say?

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that.

Q. Sure. With a centralized exchange like Himalaya, you

wouldn't necessarily expect to see a large number of on-chain

transactions, right?

A. With centralized exchanges, I typically expect to see

inbound on-chain transactions and outbound on-chain

transactions, which would correspond to customers' deposits and

customers' withdrawals.

Q. But we just reviewed, didn't we, that the only way to

purchase HDO Credits was by depositing fiat with the exchange,

right? We saw that in the April 2021 white paper.

MR. HORTON: Objection. It was just reviewed, as the

question indicated.

THE COURT: Are you asking him is that what was stated

in the document? Is that your question?

MR. SCHIRICK: I believe he answered that he would

expect to see inbound or outbound transactions, and I'm

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referring back to the April 2021 white paper that we just

reviewed that indicates that the purchase of HDO Credits

happens by depositing U.S. dollars, fiat currency, with the

exchange.

MR. HORTON: Your Honor, in view of that explanation,

we renew our objection from our discussion at the sidebar of

the purpose of that.

THE COURT: Having reviewed that statement, what is

your question?

MR. SCHIRICK: The question is, does he recall that

that is how funds get into the exchange, according to the white

paper, according to the——

THE COURT: So you're asking whether the white paper

states that?

MR. SCHIRICK: No. I'm asking whether it explains the

lack of inbound cryptocurrency transactions because the white

paper said the only way you can get HDO Credits on the system

is to deposit cash.

THE COURT: You can answer that question.

A. Sorry. Can you just restate that. There was a bit of

back-and-forth. Please. Thank you.

MR. HORTON: Your Honor, may we approach before the

question is asked again.

THE COURT: Yes.

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(At the sidebar)

THE COURT: So I understand you to be asking him

whether his conclusion about inbound and outbound is consistent

with what's in the white paper; am I correct?

MR. SCHIRICK: Broadly speaking, yes. But I think,

your Honor, the point is, you know, on direct, he was shown a

variety of materials that were Himalaya Exchange materials, and

asked——and they were allowed to show him——the government was

allowed to show them for the effect on the listener because it

informed his ultimate conclusions, and I'm showing him the same

materials to challenge his judgment on that.

THE COURT: So that's fine, but it seems like perhaps

you should phrase the question: Isn't it true that if X, then

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. I will try.

MR. HORTON: Our objection to framing it the way he

should frame it is that "isn't it true that the substance of

the Himalaya Exchange white paper" is offering it for its

truth, and taking it for granted that it is true. "Well, since

this is true, how do you react to that?" And that's the

purpose that we objected to at the sidebar.

MR. SCHIRICK: We are not offering it for its truth.

It's the same basis you offered it, for the effect on the

listener and it informs his judgment. I'm asking him the same

thing, does this inform your judgment, does this make you think

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differently about——

MR. KAMARAJU: It's no different than saying, you read

this document, you reached a conclusion, does this part of the

document undermine the conclusion that you reached?

MR. FINKEL: But that's not the question that was

posed.

MR. KAMARAJU: That's the question that your Honor——

MR. FINKEL: Excuse me.

MR. KAMARAJU: I apologize.

MR. FINKEL: The question that was posed was, the

white paper said this so you'd expect to see X, which is using

the white paper for its truth. Mr. Schirick is right. If he

wants to ask a question of what effect did the white paper

statement have on him, that's a fair question. To the extent

he poses the question, Mr. Schirick poses the question that he

did, we ask that your Honor give a limiting instruction, just

because the white paper says this fact doesn't make it true,

and it is not being offered for its truth. And to be clear,

the government's view is the white paper is false. So that's

the issue that we're wrestling with.

MR. KAMARAJU: Well, to the extent the government's

view is the white paper is false, they'll obviously have the

opportunity to put on evidence and argue that in summation.

MR. FINKEL: We're still allowed to——

MR. KAMARAJU: Sorry. I interrupted you and I

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apologized, and I'd ask for the same thing.

My point is, the way the document——the way it is posed

is, this is the material you reviewed, this part of the

material undermines the conclusion that you reached, correct?

That's all about what's in his mind.

MR. FINKEL: That wasn't the question asked, and to

the extent that the question is——to the extent the question is

relying on the information in the white paper, we ask that your

Honor give a limiting instruction which I think is consistent

with what defense counsel says he's using the white paper for,

which is the effect on the listener and his interpretation of

that relating to his analysis of HDO.

THE COURT: I think he can ask whether this statement

is consistent with his conclusion.

MR. SCHIRICK: I'm happy to put it like that.

MR. FINKEL: I think that's a fair question, your

Honor, and I would just ask that the limiting instruction

accompany it, because just so the jury isn't confused, because

what's being offered for its truth and not, to a lay juror

sometimes can be misunderstood, and so we just ask that the

limiting instruction be provided so that it is being viewed by

the jury and considered by the jury for the proper purpose that

the Court has allowed this information to come in for. That's

the government's view.

MR. KAMARAJU: I don't think the Court has to repeat

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the same limiting instruction at each reference to the

document.

THE COURT: I agree with that. Okay.

(Continued on next page)

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(In open court)

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. So Mr. Roberts, returning to this discussion, you recall

looking at the portion of the April 2021 white paper that

described how the——how any stored value would get onto the

Himalaya Exchange, right?

A. I recall reviewing sentences about the mechanics of funding

accounts on the exchange.

Q. Right. The mechanics of funding an HDO, the purchase of

HDO.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And according to the white paper, that is done by

sending fiat——or U.S. dollars, to use a less fancy phrase——to

the exchange and then the exchange in turn would issue an HDO

credit to the purchaser; is that fair?

A. Yes, I recall reading that.

Q. Okay. And so my question is: In light of that, does

that——is that inconsistent with the idea that it would be

strange not to see inbound cryptocurrency transactions?

MR. HORTON: Object to the form.

THE COURT: You can answer.

A. Are you talking specifically about this cryptocurrency

exchange or cryptocurrency exchanges generally?

Q. No, no, just this one, given its unique——

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A. Well, that is how they described the mechanics of their

exchange.

Q. Right. And so that is how they described it, and that

would explain why one might not see inbound cryptocurrency

transfers to the exchange, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection in view of the issues raised at

the sidebar, your Honor.

THE COURT: You can ask whether or not this claim is

consistent with his conclusions about inbound and outbound

transactions.

MR. SCHIRICK: That was going to be the next question,

your Honor.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. And is that method of funding somewhat inconsistent with

your conclusion that you would expect to see inbound

cryptocurrency transactions?

A. I thought I said for inbound and outbound that I was——I

recall referring to cryptocurrency exchanges more generally,

not necessarily the Himalaya Exchange.

Q. And I agree. You did. And what we're talking about, just

to be clear, is, with respect to the Himalaya Exchange

specifically, given the way that it was described to you,

right, and the way it was disclosed to Bitgo, does that——is

that, to a degree, inconsistent with the idea, which you

testified to earlier, that you would expect, with respect to

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Himalaya, to see inbound cryptocurrency exchanges?

MR. HORTON: Objection. It's a compound question with

testimony.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled. You may answer.

A. I——I don't think that's inconsistent with——with my finding.

Q. And it's not inconsistent with your finding? You think

that there should still be——with respect to the Himalaya

Exchange, specifically, your expectation would still be to see

inbound cryptocurrency exchanges, given the way that it works?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: So he just answered the question.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay.

Q. Now you also testified that one of the red flags that you

identified in your review related to HDO's reserves, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And I think you said that you expected that the amount of

HDO tokens in circulation should match the reserves that

are——let's call it in the bank, if that's fair, from your point

of view.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And just what are reserves again, to remind

everyone?

A. My understanding of reserves, it is the pot of money or

asset that gives value to the stablecoin.

Q. Okay. And you testified that you believe that the amount

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of HDO that was minted was 1.5 billion, approximately.

A. In a ballpark range. I don't recall the specific number.

Q. Okay. Fair. And I think you also testified on direct that

"minted" essentially means "created"; is that fair?

A. I'd agree with that, yes.

Q. Okay. Now isn't it possible, based on your experience,

that you could have tokens that are created, or minted, but

held out of circulation?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation.

MR. SCHIRICK: Based on his experience.

THE COURT: I'm going to permit the question. You may

answer.

A. I think that it is possible to mint tokens but withhold

them from circulation.

Q. Okay. And so that means that only a portion of what was

minted could be circulating out and in an ecosystem or on the

blockchain, fair?

A. It's——it's possible.

Q. Okay. And so turning to the case of the Himalaya Exchange

specifically, if 1.5 billion were minted but some were withheld

from circulation, then you wouldn't expect to see reserves for

the full 1.5 billion, fair?

A. I——for me, when I viewed this information, it was

impossible for me to determine what was in circulation and what

was not in circulation.

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Q. And I, yes, agreed a hundred percent because you didn't

have access to the information as to what was going on inside

the Himalaya Exchange, right?

A. I did not.

Q. Right. So you had no way of knowing whether 1.5 billion

had been minted but some were held back out of circulation.

A. I——I did not have access to that internal information, to

the extent that it exists.

Q. Fair enough. Okay. And again, you couldn't——you can't see

this because, viewed from the outside, looking at the

blockchain, all the HDO looks like it's in, you know, either

one or a set of wallets that belonged to the exchange, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So based on this, it's difficult to know what the

right reserve level is or would have been, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Based on what?

MR. SCHIRICK: Based on the discussion that the

witness and I just had, the question is, it's difficult to know

from the outside what the appropriate reserve level is.

MR. HORTON: Same objection.

THE COURT: The appropriate reserve level? Is that a

term of art?

MR. SCHIRICK: I believe the witness testified that

only what——only tokens in circulation need to be——need to have

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reserves, and because we can't tell from the outside what's in

circulation, there's no way to know what the appropriate

reserve is.

MR. HORTON: Objection. That mischaracterizes his

testimony.

THE COURT: I don't recall the witness saying that.

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, may we have a brief

sidebar?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Testimony reviewed at the sidebar)

THE COURT: Go ahead.

MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. So just to go back briefly, I believe you testified

earlier, just to be clear, that the amount of reserves should

match the amount of a token that's in circulation, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And so if you don't know what the amount of a token

is in circulation, then you don't——you can't determine what the

right reserve amount should be, right?

A. Yes, but I can refer to information on the blockchain to

get an idea of what may be in circulation.

Q. Right. But if we're talking about tokens that are held

off-chain, then there's no way to know what the right reserve

figure should be, right?

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A. If it was held off-chain, then it's entirely possible that

a person in the public could not ascertain those details.

Q. Right. Because you just don't have the information.

A. Yes.

Q. That's fine, right? Okay.

MR. SCHIRICK: Now if we could please turn to

Government Exhibit in evidence 208A.

Q. Now do you recall reviewing this document on direct

testimony with Mr. Horton?

A. Yes.

MR. SCHIRICK: And if we could go to page 2, please.

Q. Okay. And you recall that Mr. Horton asked you some

questions——

MR. SCHIRICK: Yes, thanks. Let's zoom in on the top

portion of the document.

Q. Okay. Now I believe you said on direct that reviewing this

information led you to believe that there was an internal

ledger system at Himalaya, right?

A. I——I got the impression that one likely existed based on

this information.

Q. Right. And we covered that when you and I spoke a little

earlier today, that that——to the extent the system operated

off-chain, that it was an internal ledger system.

MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: You may answer.

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now if we look at the——do you see the heading "Total

HDO-denominated liabilities issued"?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. And then right under that, it says, "Collateralized

HDO tokens on the Ethereum blockchain"?

A. Yes, I can see that.

Q. And there's the 0 there that you talked about with

Mr. Horton, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And does that mean——am I——is my understanding

correct that that means that there are no backed HDO tokens on

the Ethereum blockchain?

A. I——that is a finding that I——that I have made, yes.

Q. Okay. And then if we look at the next line,

"Collateralized HDO Credits on the Himalaya Ecosystem

platform."

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And there, your understanding was that that's a reference

to the off-chain system that Himalaya has, right?

A. That is the impression I obtained.

Q. Okay. And it shows there that the HDO Credits were backed

at that roughly $400 million figure; is that right?

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A. It shows that there are, yeah, roughly $400 million there.

Q. Okay. And that's the credits that are backed——when we say

credits, we're talking about the off-chain, tokens, right?

A. Yes.

Q. The representation of the off-chain tokens, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that $400 million number——now let's go up to the

top where it says "U.S. dollars held in Himalaya-owned bank

account." Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And does that number exceed the $4 million,

approximately $4 million number below it?

A. It does.

Q. Okay. And does that suggest to you that for the HDO

Credits that are off-chain, that those HDO Credits are

adequately backed by cash reserves?

A. It is certainly an attestation that that could be the case.

Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe otherwise?

A. Not——not at this time.

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, if I could just have one

moment.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.

Q. Now I think you testified earlier that you were told by

someone at the exchange in 2023 that Mr. Guo wasn't financially

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involved in the platform, is that right?

A. I——I recall receiving that type of response, yes.

Q. Okay. And did you develop any information in your

investigation that was inconsistent with that?

A. Well, I recall identifying information in the public

domain, such as Google searches, that drew a potential

financial connection between Miles Guo and the Himalaya

Exchange.

Q. Okay. And you've never spoken to Miles Guo before, right?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. And to your knowledge has Miles Guo ever contacted Bitgo?

A. I'm not aware of an attempt by Miles Guo to contact Bitgo.

Q. Okay. And as far as you know, all of the instructions that

were given to Bitgo on behalf of the exchange were given by

representatives of the exchange, fair to say?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And——okay. Fair enough. Now you said that you

received the subpoena from the government in the fall of 2020,

right?

A. Fall of 2022.

Q. I'm missing two years. Yes. Thank you. Fall of 2022.

And then Bitgo subsequently ended its relationship

with the exchange, right?

A. Subsequently, yes.

Q. And do you remember about when that was?

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A. Approximately mid-2023.

Q. Okay. June 8th sound like about the right date?

A. I can't recall the specific date right now, but in the

ballpark.

Q. Okay. So several months later.

A. Yes.

Q. More than six months later.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And do you recall that during that time, as part of

your customer review process, you took into account media

coverage of the Himalaya Exchange?

A. By media coverage, can you clarify that a little bit,

please.

Q. Sure. I mean, as part of deciding whether or not to end

your relationship with the exchange, Bitgo took into account

the media coverage that the exchange was receiving, right?

A. We took into account information available in the public

domain such as media websites that identified the Himalaya

Exchange.

Q. Right. And you also took into account that Mr. Guo had

been arrested, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And in fact, you told the representatives of the

exchange that Mr. Guo being arrested and receipt of the grand

jury subpoena were pretty much going to be the end of the

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relationship with Bitgo, right?

A. I don't recall that specific information being shared.

Q. Okay. Well, is it fair to say that bad media——withdrawn.

Fair to say that adverse media coverage of a

client——or bad press, as we would say——is something that you

take into account?

A. It is.

Q. Right. Because there's a reputational risk, right, for

Bitgo?

A. There is.

Q. Yeah. In being associated with, providing services to a

customer that is getting bad press, right?

A. Yes, we——we do take——we can take into account reputational

harm matters.

Q. And sometimes if there's a lot of, you know, heat on a

customer, it may just not be worth it for Bitgo to continue

doing business with them, right?

A. That could——that is a factor among others when assessing if

having a relationship with a customer exceeds our risk

tolerance.

Q. Right. And so do you recall approximately what the fees

were that Bitgo was receiving from Himalaya?

A. I recall the fee was in the range of——for all services, in

the range of 10 to $15,000. I can't recall the exact figure.

Q. Okay. So it may not be worth the 10 or $15,000 in revenue

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to have the reputational risk of being associated with someone

who's getting bad press, right?

A. It's a totality of factors that we consider when making

that evaluation. The fees paid could certainly be a factor.

Q. Sure. But it's an important factor, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer whether it's an important

factor.

A. It's a factor as important as many others.

Q. Okay. But it's important, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Was Himalaya——withdrawn.

Himalaya wasn't Bitgo's biggest client, was it?

A. Define "biggest."

Q. Well, I mean, it's all relative, so you tell me. Were they

the biggest client of Bitgo relative to others?

MR. HORTON: Objection.

THE COURT: You can say whether it was big, medium, or

small.

A. I wouldn't regard Himalaya as being a significant

relationship compared to some other of the clients that we

have.

Q. Sure. Okay. And after Bitgo fired Himalaya, you guys are

still in business, right?

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A. After we closed Himalaya's account, Bitgo was still in

business, yes.

Q. Yeah. You guys are still doing fine.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now you testified earlier that you proactively

reached out to the FBI at some point in 2023, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now isn't it true that when you did that, Bitgo had

been in touch with the government for some time?

A. Which part of the government?

Q. Any part of the government.

A. In relation to this account review?

Q. Well, let's put it this way: You, Bitgo, had received a

subpoena from the government in the fall of 2022? I'm going to

get it right this time.

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Okay. And so you had——you have lawyers at Bitgo?

A. Yes, we do.

Q. Okay. And they were talking to lawyers for the government

as part of responding to that subpoena?

A. Well, Bitgo is obliged to respond so they would have to

have some type of communication.

Q. Certainly. I'm just confirming the fact they did.

A. I——well, I——I wasn't necessarily privy to that

communication, but I presume that something like that occurred.

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Q. Okay. So Bitgo's lawyers were in touch with the

government, so when you reached out to the FBI, you had already

been in touch with the government for some time, right?

A. We would have been communicating with agents and government

personnel associated with the subpoena.

Q. Right. So you didn't reach out out of the blue.

MR. HORTON: Objection.

THE COURT: He can say whether it was out of the blue.

A. For the outreach, a typical and standard step to take in

that situation is to reach out to law enforcement.

Q. But it wasn't——it wasn't out of the blue. You knew who to

call, right?

A. Sorry. Can you say that again?

Q. You knew who to call, right?

A. Yes, I believe the person I called, their details were on

the subpoena.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you. No further questions

at this time.

THE COURT: Redirect?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, you were asked a number of questions on

cross-examination about Coinbase. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. From your review, did the Himalaya Exchange operate like

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Coinbase?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. I——I recall in my review that the composition and nature of

the Himalaya Exchange did not align with an exchange like

Coinbase's profile.

Q. And what do you mean that the composition of the Himalaya

Exchange did not align with Coinbase's profile?

A. There could be various things there, but one big one for me

being I recall the ability to make deposits in cryptocurrency

and withdraw cryptocurrency off the exchange.

Q. Can customers at Coinbase make deposits in cryptocurrency?

MR. SCHIRICK: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. Assuming we're talking about their——like, that particular

product, I——I am of the impression that Coinbase customers can

fund their accounts with a cryptocurrency transaction.

Q. And could Himalaya Exchange customers fund their accounts

with cryptocurrency?

A. Based on my review, I did not find information that

suggested that Himalaya Exchange customers could fund their

accounts with a cryptocurrency transaction.

Q. You were also asked questions on cross about the blockchain

activity of Coinbase. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

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Q. How does the blockchain activity of Coinbase compare to the

blockchain activity you observed for the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I would categorize it as significantly different.

Q. What makes it significantly different, the blockchain

activity you saw at the Himalaya Exchange against the

blockchain activity of Coinbase?

A. Coinbase has numerous customer deposits in cryptocurrency

every day, numerous customer withdrawals of cryptocurrency

every day; they offer numerous different cryptocurrencies for

trading, among other things.

Q. You testified that 99 percent of the Himalaya Coin you

observed was in the wallet controlled by the Himalaya Exchange.

Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. Does Coinbase control 99 percent of any cryptocurrency?

A. I don't think I——I——I don't know if they——

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

A. Sorry.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I would find it unlikely, but I'm not entirely aware of

every single cryptocurrency they support today, right now.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you described the Himalaya Exchange as a

closed-loop. Is Coinbase a closed-loop?

A. Coinbase has off-chain aspects.

Q. And how do you compare the off-chain aspects at Coinbase to

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the off-chain aspects of the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I would say that if we're taking Himalaya Exchange's

customer who has HDO Credits and wants to buy HCN, that trade

is successful, it gets settled, I think that can be compared to

a Coinbase customer that funds their account with U.S. dollars,

such as via a wire transfer, places an order for, say, Bitcoin,

for example, and that trade settles; in both circumstances I

would describe that as off-chain activity.

Q. Relatively speaking, what was the——withdrawn, your Honor.

At Coinbase, can customers take crypto off of the

exchange?

A. Yes, that is my understanding.

Q. And can customers do that at the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I did not find information that indicated it was possible

for Himalaya customers to do that.

Q. At Coinbase can customers bring their own cryptocurrency

wallets to the exchange?

A. They could bring their own cryptocurrency to the exchange.

Q. And to do that, did they need to bring their own wallets?

A. You don't need to bring your own wallets. You could——once

you created your account, you could simply fund your account

with the cryptocurrency. You don't necessarily need to have

a——or bring a wallet.

Q. You testified about a number of questions you asked the

Himalaya Exchange and the answers they gave you.

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A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, did the Himalaya Exchange tell you about

the H Coin lockup?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Beyond the scope.

THE COURT: You can answer.

A. I recall putting a question to Himalaya Exchange about a——a

potential lockup of tokens, and I recall receiving a response

along the lines of no such lockup existed.

Q. What, if anything, did the Himalaya Exchange tell you about

Freedom Media Ventures?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You were asked a number of questions on cross, Mr. Roberts,

about the Himalaya Dollar reserves. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And you were asked questions about whether it's possible

for the actual number of stablecoins to be lower than the

number that is shown as minted on the blockchain. Do you

remember that?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you were asked questions on cross about

whether it's possible for the number of stablecoins in

circulation to be lower than the number reported as minted on

the blockchain. Do you remember that?

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A. Yes.

Q. And you testified that you asked the Himalaya Exchange

questions about Himalaya Dollar; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And when, if ever, did the Himalaya Exchange tell you that

the number of Himalaya dollars was lower than what you had seen

on the blockchain?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Mischaracterizes.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that, please.

Q. Was there ever a time that the Himalaya Exchange told you

that the number of Himalaya dollars actually in circulation was

lower than what you observed on the public blockchain?

MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I——I don't recall a response by Himalaya Exchange personnel

pertaining to that.

MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you pull up what's in

evidence as BR208A.

Can you go to the second page, please.

Q. The line at the top here says, "U.S. dollars held in

Himalaya-owned bank accounts," and there's a figure of

$400 million. What month in 2023 did you get this from the

Himalaya Exchange?

A. It was around January 2023.

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Q. And what, if anything, did the exchange tell you about

whether these funds were still in their bank accounts when they

gave you this document?

A. I don't recall a specific response by them about if

they——if they were still in there, but I——I felt that it was

implied based on the questions we had asked and the

documentation we had received.

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to that answer.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

Q. And what do you mean that you felt it was implied based on

the information you got from the exchange?

A. I recall asking questions about how is the Himalaya Dollar

backed by U.S. dollars, and they gave us back this——this

documentation, so if——if it was no longer backed by U.S.

dollars, I would have thought they wouldn't have bothered to

submit this type of documentation to us.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you were asked various questions about the

nature of stablecoin reserves on cross. Do you remember that?

A. I do.

Q. Can stablecoins——are stablecoins meant to be commingled

with an exchange's operating funds?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. For cryptocurrencies generally, I would expect customer

funds or crypto customer and cryptocurrencies to be separate

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from the cryptocurrency exchange's own assets.

Q. And you were also asked questions on cross about the fees

that the exchange paid to Bitgo. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And how much per month did the Himalaya Exchange pay

overall to Bitgo?

A. Per month, it was in the ballpark of 10 to $15,000 a month.

Q. And how much of that 10 to $15,000 a month was for cold

wallets?

A. It was somewhere in the realm of $10,000.

Q. And did the Himalaya Exchange use those cold wallets?

A. I do not recall the Himalaya Exchange ever funding those

cold wallets.

MR. HORTON: Could I have one moment, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. At the bottom of the document we're looking at, there's a

name, Jesse Brown, CEO, and a signature. When, if ever, did

you speak to Jesse Brown when you were reviewing the Himalaya

Exchange?

A. I do not recall ever speaking to a person called Jesse

Brown in connection with the Himalaya Exchange.

Q. And did Mr. Brown join any of the calls that you had with

the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I do not recall an individual named Jesse Brown on either

of the calls I had with the Himalaya Exchange.

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Q. And what information, if any, did you get in your review

from Jesse Brown?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: You may answer.

A. I don't recall receiving any documentation from a person

called Jesse Brown.

MR. HORTON: You can take this document down,

Ms. Loftus.

Q. Mr. Roberts, you were asked to look at the white paper of

the Himalaya Exchange. Do you know if Minran Wu got the

Himalaya Exchange white paper?

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that?

Q. Do you know if Minran Wu got the Himalaya Exchange white

paper?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you know what the Himalaya Farm Alliance is,

Mr. Roberts?

A. I recall coming across that term in our account review. I

don't have specific recollection of exactly what it is.

Q. You were also asked questions on cross about the grand jury

subpoena that you received?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the grand jury subpoena order you to conduct a review?

A. It did not.

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Q. Did the grand jury subpoena order you to close your

relationship with the Himalaya Exchange?

A. It did not.

Q. And did the government ever direct you to close the

relationship with the Himalaya Exchange?

A. No.

MR. HORTON: If I could have just one more moment,

your Honor.

Q. Mr. Roberts, in the course of your several-months review,

did you understand what steps, if any, the Himalaya Farm

Alliance took to distribute the Himalaya Exchange's white

papers?

A. I——I do not recall an event or receiving information about

that.

MR. HORTON: No further questions.

THE COURT: Recross?

MR. SCHIRICK: Briefly, your Honor.

If we could just please bring up Government Exhibit

BR212.

And if you can just scroll down, please. Yeah, just

keep going. I'll let you know when to stop. Thank you.

Okay. Great. Right there. Thank you.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. SCHIRICK:

Q. Okay. Mr. Roberts, do you remember being asked questions

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about this document, which is in evidence, earlier this

afternoon by Mr. Horton?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And he asked you, just to back up——withdrawn.

To refresh everyone, this email is an exchange that

someone at Bitgo had with someone at the exchange, right?

A. Yes, this is an email between a Bitgo employee and

personnel from Himalaya Exchange.

Q. Okay. And this is in March of 2023, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it your understanding that this email exchange takes

place as part of Himalaya's request to add new tokens to

the——to Bitgo's wallet capabilities?

MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor. It's beyond the

scope of the redirect.

MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm——

THE COURT: I'll allow the question.

MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.

A. I believe that this string related to several things, one

of which was a request by Himalaya to add an additional

cryptocurrency.

Q. Okay. Now I just want to focus your attention on No. 2

here quickly. And you were asked some questions about

paragraph 2 by Mr. Horton, right?

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. And the question that Bitgo posed to the exchange

was why is that only——"Why is it that only collateralized HDO

Credits are backed and audited? Why does HDO need to exist if

it cannot be withdrawn off-platform?" And the answer——which

you did not review with Mr. Horton, am I correct?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Mischaracterizes.

Q. The answer is——

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. ——"We are launching crypto capabilities soon for our coins.

This is partly why we are asking for your support on the HEU,

as we plan to launch HDO, HCN and HEU crypto deposits and

withdrawals soon." Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that this is a member of

the exchange or representative of the exchange telling Bitgo

that they plan to launch crypto deposits and withdrawals?

A. Yes, that's what it appears to be saying.

Q. Those would be on-chain crypto deposits and withdrawals,

right?

A. It doesn't actually specify on-chain, but I think I could

reasonably say that may be what they're referring to.

Q. Right. There's no other way to deposit cryptocurrency with

an exchange off-chain, is there?

A. Well, you could do it off-chain.

Q. But it wouldn't make any sense to do it that way, right?

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A. Well, that——that would just be taking place on a private

ledger.

Q. Right. So it's fair to say, just to make sure we're on the

same page, that this reflects a statement from the exchange

that they plan to have the ability to do crypto deposits and

withdrawals from the Himalaya Exchange, right?

MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. If we could go up to 1 and just

blow that up, please.

Q. You were asked some questions on redirect by Mr. Horton

about whether Himalaya ever used the cold wallet solution that

Bitgo offered, right?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. And I think you said that they didn't, right?

A. I said that they had——I do not recall that they ever funded

their account.

Q. Okay. Fair enough. You don't recall that they funded it.

Let's just take a look at 1 here.

The question that your folks from Bitgo posed to the

exchange was that "Himalaya claims to keep 95 percent of their

funds in cold storage. Why are you keeping the entirety of

HDO, HCN in hot wallets at Bitgo right now? Is there an

alternative custody solution you are currently using? Or are

you simply waiting for the cold wallet setup to be finalized

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with us?" And the answer is, "It is the latter." Do you see

that?

A. Yes.

Q. He says, "We are waiting for finalize our cold wallet

setup, and we will soon complete the creation of cold wallets."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. So your understanding is that this is a representative of

the exchange telling Bitgo that in fact they plan to start

using cold wallets soon?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now you were also asked some questions by Mr. Horton

about the comparison between Himalaya Exchange and Coinbase.

Do you recall those?

A. Sorry. Can you repeat that, please.

Q. Yeah, I'm sorry. So I should slow down.

You were asked some questions by Mr. Horton a moment

ago about a comparison between Coinbase and the Himalaya

Exchange, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now there are any number of different cryptocurrency

exchanges, right?

A. Yes, I——I am of the impression there are——there are

numerous.

Q. Sure. Based on your experience at Bitgo and in the

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industry, what would you say, there are dozens, hundreds?

A. Hundreds, yeah, or more.

Q. Do they all operate the same way?

A. They could have internal mechanics that are specific to

themselves.

Q. Sure.

MR. SCHIRICK: No further questions.

MR. HORTON: Just briefly, your Honor?

THE COURT: All right. Re-redirect.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. HORTON:

Q. Mr. Roberts, you testified that the Himalaya Exchange was a

Bitgo customer for nearly two years; is that right?

A. Approximately that much time, yes.

Q. And Himalaya Exchange paid for cold wallet storage every

month they were a Bitgo customer; is that right?

A. I don't recall if they——they paid every single month, but

I——that was——I believe that's what the agreement they signed

was stipulated.

Q. And when, if ever, did they fund their cold wallets?

MR. SCHIRICK: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

A. I do not recall that Himalaya Exchange ever funded their

cold wallet with Bitgo.

Q. And when the exchange said in March 2023, in the email that

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you were just shown on cross, that, "We are launching crypto

capabilities soon for our coins," what was your understanding

about the exchange's crypto capabilities at the time of that

statement in March 2023?

A. I recall thinking that they had not really built out an

infrastructure for their crypto exchange to support

cryptocurrency transactions.

Q. What were the factors that led you to recommend termination

with the Himalaya Exchange that year?

MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Asked and answered several

times.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HORTON: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any re-recross?

MR. SCHIRICK: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: All righty. So you may step out.

(Witness excused)

THE COURT: And the government may call its next

witness.

MR. FINKEL: The government calls James Collins.

THE LAW CLERK: Please raise your right hand.

(Witness sworn)

THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it, and

draw the microphone close to you.

THE WITNESS: James Robert Collins, Jr.

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THE COURT: Speak up.

THE WITNESS: James Robert Collins, Jr. J-A-M-E-S,

R-O-B-E-R-T, C-O-L-L-I-N-S, and I use the apostrophe J-R.

THE COURT: So if you'll just speak into the mic, and

hold it very close.

You may inquire.

MR. FINKEL: Thank you, your Honor.

JAMES ROBERT COLLINS, JR.,

called as a witness by the Government,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FINKEL:

Q. Mr. Collins, feel free to move the mic to suit you so

you're comfortable, and if you could direct the mic directly

toward your mouth so everybody can hear you.

A. How's this?

Q. That's better. Thank you.

Mr. Collins, are you known by any nicknames?

A. I——my parents called me Beau when I was born, and I've gone

by that nickname since then.

Q. Okay. And could you just point the mic directly at your

mouth. Just turn it a little bit. Yeah, thank you.

Mr. Collins, where do you work?

A. Mercantile Global Holdings.

Q. What is Mercantile Global Holdings?

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A. It is a holding company that wholly owns Mercantile Bank

International.

Q. What is Mercantile Bank International?

A. Mercantile Bank International is an international financial

entity which is deemed a bank by FinCEN and operates under a

license issued in Puerto Rico.

Q. What is your position at Mercantile Bank?

A. I'm the chairman and CEO.

Q. And CEO means what?

A. The most senior executive officer.

Q. And how many——how many years have you been with Mercantile

Bank?

A. Approximately five.

Q. What's the current status of Mercantile Bank?

A. Mercantile Bank is unfortunately winding down its

operations.

Q. And when did that begin?

A. Yesterday.

Q. Prior to that, Mr. Collins, approximately how many

employees reported to you as the CEO?

A. All together, the total number of employees in the company

were about 25.

Q. And Mr. Collins, as part of your role as CEO, did you learn

information about the revenues of Mercantile Bank?

A. Yes.

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Q. Did you have influence on how to market Mercantile Bank in

the marketplace?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you have communications with the bank's customers

as the CEO?

A. Yes.

Q. Who had the final decision-making authority for Mercantile

Bank?

A. I did.

Q. That's because you're the CEO?

A. That is because I am the senior executive officer.

Q. What's an IFE?

A. An IFE is a license granted by the sovereign of Puerto

Rico. It stands for international financial entity, and it is

a unique bank charter.

Q. And how is that different from a bank that is not an IFE

but located in the Continental U.S.?

A. Generally speaking, you——when you apply for an IFE charter,

you designate which capabilities you want to use, and only

those capabilities are approved. In a normal bank charter, you

have the ability to do all the things that a bank could do

under that charter whether you want to or not.

Q. Mr. Collins, during your time as CEO of Mercantile Bank,

did the bank focus on a particular client base?

A. Yes. When we first began operations, we——we began with the

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vision that we would be a settlement bank to the digital asset

industry. We were the first bank in the United States licensed

to hold and transmit digital assets, and we had a fairly narrow

focus.

Q. Did there come a time, if ever, where an entity known as

G/CLUBS became a client of Mercantile Bank?

A. Yes.

Q. What about an entity known as G Fashion, did that become a

client of Mercantile Bank at one time?

A. Yes.

Q. And what about the Himalaya Exchange, was the Himalaya

Exchange, that entity, ever a client of Mercantile Bank?

A. Yes.

Q. Are any of those entities clients of Mercantile Bank today?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Mr. Collins, I want to first talk about G/CLUBS.

When did you first learn——approximately when did you first

learn about G/CLUBS?

A. It would have been the spring of '21.

Q. And how did you become aware of G/CLUBS?

A. We were processing transactions for another IFE, and

G/CLUBS was a client of that IFE, and there was a time where

these trans——they processed or submitted a large volume of

transactions through the other IFE for us to process.

Q. What was that time period, approximately?

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A. Also the spring of '21.

Q. And what was the name of that other IFE?

A. Medici Bank.

Q. And can you explain to the jury, please, Mr. Collins, why

Mercantile Bank was helping process transactions for Medici.

A. It's not uncommon for banks to process transactions for

each other. We had a good technology stack. We owned our own

technology stack. We were in a position to do so for Medici.

That's typically referred to as a corresponding bank

relationship.

Q. And so what is that term, a corresponding bank?

A. Corresponding bank means that one bank will bank the other

bank and vice versa.

Q. Now what issues, if any, was Medici having with its

relationship with G Club at that time in the spring of 2021?

A. I'm not sure I understand the question in terms of what

issues they have.

Q. What were the nature of the transactions that Mercantile

was processing for Medici in around that time, spring of 2021?

A. So there was a high volume of transactions that came

through all at once, which was unexpected. They were mostly

domestic wires. And they——to give you an example, their

typical volume in a day might have been four or five

transactions, and these turned into 200 or so transactions a

day, which is a lot for us to process, without advance notice.

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Q. And what was the approximate dollar volume at that time?

A. I don't remember daily dollar volumes, but the total

aggregate dollar volumes from that first period of time was

about $30 million.

Q. Subsequent to those transaction volume issues, did you meet

with anyone from G/CLUBS?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you meet with?

A. We met with Ana Izquierdo and Limarie Reyes.

MR. FINKEL: Could you please display for the witness

what's been marked for identification as Government

Exhibit 124.

Q. While that's coming up, Mr. Collins——well, withdrawn.

Do you see the image on your screen, sir?

A. No.

Q. Who is depicted in Government Exhibit 124?

A. That's Limarie Reyes.

MR. FINKEL: The government offers Government

Exhibit 124.

MR. KAMARAJU: No objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: It is admitted.

(Government's Exhibit 124 received in evidence)

Q. Where did this meeting with Ms. Reyes and Ms. Izquierdo

take place?

A. My home in San Juan, Puerto Rico.

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Q. And what was your understanding of Ms. Reyes's title with

G/CLUBS?

A. She was——presented herself as president.

Q. And what was Ms. Izquierdo's role at G/CLUBS, based on your

understanding?

A. She presented herself as the general counsel.

Q. And who did most of the talking for G/CLUBS during that

meeting with you in your home?

A. Ana Izquierdo.

Q. How did Ms. Izquierdo describe G/CLUBS to you?

A. She described it as a club of like-minded individuals, kind

of an affinity club that could have access to exclusive

merchandise; generally in that nature.

Q. Did Ms. Izquierdo or Ms. Reyes, in that meeting with you in

your home, describe to you anything about trying to take down

the Chinese Communist Party?

A. We didn't talk about the Chinese Communist Party.

Q. Did Ms. Izquierdo describe what G/CLUBS' target market was?

A. We did discuss——we discussed that there was a Chinese

diaspora of like-minded people that were interested in these

types of offerings.

Q. Did Ms. Izquierdo or Ms. Reyes say whether G/CLUBS offered

its members stock?

A. I don't recall us speaking about that.

MR. FINKEL: We can take that down, Ms. Loftus.

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Q. Have you ever spoken with any G/CLUBS members?

A. I don't believe I have.

Q. After that meeting with Ms. Izquierdo and Ms. Reyes, did

Mercantile take G/CLUBS on as a client?

A. Yes.

Q. And before G/CLUBS was taken on as a client, what, if any,

review did G/CLUBS go through by Mercantile Bank?

A. Mercantile Bank has an extensive Bank Secrecy Act

compliance process that is led by our compliance department,

and we went through the normal process of that.

Q. And could you just describe, at a high level for the

members of the jury, what that process entails.

A. As a rule of thumb, you want to identify the controlling

parties and the parties that are benefiting from the activity

of the bank above a certain percentage level. Those are

referred to as UBOs, is the acronym we use——ultimate beneficial

owner. You want to identify source of funds; you want to

identify the use of funds; and have some general understanding

of their business purpose and expectations.

Q. I'm just going to ask you, Mr. Collins——you can move the

top part of the microphone, just the top part, it's like an

accordion, and point it at your mouth so that it can pick up

the sound. Thank you.

A. Is that better?

Q. Yes.

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A. Okay. Sorry.

Q. Who was represented by G/CLUBS as their ultimate beneficial

owner?

A. I don't actually recall.

Q. Did G/CLUBS pass the due diligence process of Mercantile

Bank?

A. Yes.

Q. During the due diligence process did Mercantile Bank have

any concerns about G/CLUBS?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that concern?

A. There was clearly a relationship with a gentlemen named

Miles Guo. We had concerns about Miles Guo, given his risk

profile and his history with the Chinese government.

Q. Have you ever met Miles Guo?

A. I don't believe so.

Q. Did Mercantile seek representation from G/CLUBS about its

relationship with Miles Guo?

A. I'm sorry. Can you say the question again.

Q. Sure. Did Mercantile request information from G/CLUBS

about whether and to what extent G/CLUBS had a relationship

with Miles Guo?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was G/CLUBS' response, at a high level, to those

inquiries?

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A. G/CLUBS ensured us that Miles Guo would not qualify as a

UBO, that none of the money in G/CLUBS was his own, that he

only had a relationship that would be described as a influencer

or marketing relationship, that they paid him for.

Q. And who made those representations to the Mercantile Bank;

do you know?

A. Well, corporately, G/CLUBS did; but they were also made

verbally by Ana and Limarie.

Q. And if Mercantile Bank had known at the time that Miles Guo

had operating control over G/CLUBS funds, would Mercantile have

opened an account for G/CLUBS?

A. No.

Q. After G/CLUBS became a client of Mercantile, at a high

level, what was their banking activity like?

A. At a high level, their banking activity was what I would

call transactional, but we didn't——they had started planning

for another membership drive, but I don't believe they ever

conducted that, and so we were processing a handful of

transactions a day.

Q. What do you mean by membership drive?

A. The initial flurry of transactions that we processed while

they were at Medici Bank were affiliated or associated with a

membership drive where they were selling memberships in

G/CLUBS.

Q. And who told you that it was associated with a membership

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drive?

A. I can't recall precisely who told that, but it came up in

our compliance process.

MR. FINKEL: If we could please display for the

witness what's been marked for identification as Government

Exhibit 106.

Q. As that's coming up, Mr. Collins, as your relationship

between Mercantile and G/CLUBS unfolded, who did you primarily

interact with at G/CLUBS?

A. A gentleman I'll call Alex H because I can't pronounce his

last name. It's difficult.

Q. Okay. Did you interact with Ana Izquierdo?

A. A little bit.

Q. What about Limarie Reyes?

A. Not as much.

Q. Who is depicted in Government Exhibit 106?

A. That's Alex H.

MR. FINKEL: Government offers 106.

MR. KAMARAJU: No objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: It is admitted.

(Government's Exhibit 106 received in evidence)

Q. What does the H stand for?

A. His last name.

Q. Can you pronounce it, to the best of your ability?

A. I really can't. He's a——I mean, even when I was looking at

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it to read it, it was difficult to phonetically pronounce.

Q. Okay. What was your understanding of Alex H's role at

G/CLUBS?

A. Alex was I believe operating in what you would describe as

the capacity of a CFO. I don't——he——he never represented his

title.

Q. And CFO means what?

A. Chief financial officer.

Q. Do you know what entity paid Alex H's salary?

A. I can't say that I had knowledge of that.

MR. FINKEL: You can take that down, Ms. Loftus.

Q. What is Yieldesta?

A. Yieldesta was an investment vehicle that we launched that

was based on algorithmic trading.

Q. And by "we," who's the "we" in that sentence?

A. Mercantile Bank International.

Q. What sort of investing did Yieldesta do?

A. It was predominantly futures trading.

Q. Did there come a time, if ever, when G/CLUBS invested in

Yieldesta?

A. Yes.

Q. How much, approximately, did G/CLUBS invest in Yieldesta?

A. $3 million.

Q. You were speaking before about interacting with Alex H, Ana

Izquierdo. Did there come a time, if ever, that you

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communicated regarding G/CLUBS with Yvette Wang?

A. I don't have a recollection of it, but there were a number

of calls that she may have been on.

Q. Did Alex H——well, withdrawn.

What about an individual named Haoran He?

A. Also someone that may have been on a call, but I don't have

a memory of specific conversations.

Q. What were the types of communications you had with Alex H?

A. Generally talking about——we talked about the potential for

a membership drive again, we talked about the strategy of

Yieldesta. It was pretty limited to just that.

Q. When you pitched Yieldesta to Alex H, what, if anything,

was his reaction?

A. He was interested in investing.

Q. Was it your understanding that Alex H had the ability to

make that decision?

A. Not exclusively.

Q. What did Alex H say, if anything, about who needed to make

that decision?

A. He referenced a group that he called the management, needed

to come to a decision on it and that he would represent.

Q. Who——did Alex H indicate who the management was?

A. No.

Q. You mentioned before that G Fashion became a customer or

client of Mercantile; is that right?

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A. I'm sorry. Can you say that again.

Q. Sure. Did there come a time, if ever, when an entity known

as G Fashion became a client of Mercantile?

A. Yes.

Q. Did G Fashion also go through a due diligence review?

A. Yes.

Q. And did it pass the due diligence review?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mercantile have any concerns about G Fashion's

association, if any, with an individual named Miles Guo?

A. Yes.

Q. And what representations, if any, did G Fashion make about

its association with Miles Guo?

A. They also represented that Miles was not a UBO, that he had

no money in the business, he'd received no financial benefit of

the business except for being paid as a spokesperson.

Q. And was Mercantile satisfied with those representations?

A. Yes.

Q. And had Mercantile known that Miles Guo in fact had

operational control over G Fashion, would Mercantile have

opened G Fashion as a client?

A. No.

Q. You mentioned before that you didn't recall the UBO of

G/CLUBS as it was reported to Mercantile Bank; is that correct?

A. I'm sorry. Can you ask the question again.

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Q. I think you mentioned a moment ago that you didn't recall

the name of the UBO, the ultimate beneficial owner, of G/CLUBS

as it was reported to Mercantile Bank; is that right?

A. Correct.

MR. FINKEL: All right. Ms. Loftus, if we can show

the witness what's been marked for identification as

GX MER1209.

Go to the next page.

Sorry. It's MER1210. Apologies.

If we can go to the next page, please.

Next page.

Keep going. Yeah. Up, please. Can you zoom in on

the bottom.

BY MR. FINKEL:

Q. Mr. Collins, could you please take a look at the image on

your screen, sir.

Could you please take a look at the image on your

screen and let me know if that refreshes your recollection as

to the name of the UBO that G/CLUBS reported to Mercantile

Bank.

A. It really doesn't. I don't recall having seen this

document.

MR. FINKEL: Okay. We can take that down.

Q. When, if ever, did you first learn about a company called

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the Himalaya Exchange?

A. I learned about the Himalaya Exchange when Alex H suggested

that he would introduce me to another company he was familiar

with that was a crypto exchange, digital asset exchange, who

might be a large depositor who might be interested in opening

up a bank account with us.

Q. When, approximately, was this?

A. Late summer, early fall of 2021.

Q. Did the Himalaya Exchange ultimately become a client of

Mercantile Bank?

A. Yes.

Q. And did it go through a due diligence review?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it pass the due diligence review?

A. Yes.

Q. And did Mercantile Bank have any concerns about Himalaya

Exchange's association, if any, with an individual known by the

name of Miles Guo?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did the Himalaya Exchange tell Mercantile Bank

about its association with Miles Guo?

A. They told us that he was not a UBO, that none of the money

that they'd be depositing with us was owned or affiliated with

Miles Guo, and that they had no association with him whatsoever

other than as a paid spokesperson.

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Q. Mr. Collins, what was your——excuse me——what was your

understanding at the time of who was in charge of the Himalaya

Exchange?

A. My understanding at the time is that William Je was in

charge of the Himalaya Exchange.

MR. FINKEL: If we can please display what's in

evidence as Government Exhibit 103.

Q. Who is this individual?

A. That's William Je.

Q. Do you know him by any other names?

A. I believe his Chinese name is Kin Ming Je.

MR. FINKEL: We can take that down.

Could you please display for the witness what's been

marked for identification as Government Exhibit 113.

Q. Do you recognize this individual?

A. That is a gentleman that lived in the BVI who had an

executive title with the Himalaya Exchange, and I don't recall

his name.

MR. FINKEL: Okay. Government offers GX 113.

MR. KAMARAJU: Objection since he doesn't know the

man's name.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What is your understanding of this individual's association

with the Himalaya Exchange?

A. He was designated as I believe president of the Himalaya

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Exchange in the BVI, which was I believe a requirement of BVI

to have a local senior executive that represented the company.

Q. And what did William Je tell you, if anything, about this

individual, Government Exhibit 113?

A. Just what I said.

Q. Did you ever interact with this individual about Himalaya

Exchange management?

A. He was on one or two of the conference calls we had

initially, but it became clear that he wasn't really making any

decisions about the business.

MR. FINKEL: If we can please display what's in

evidence as Government Exhibit BR208A.

You can scroll down to the next page, please.

Can you zoom in on that signature line, please,

Ms. Loftus.

Q. Can you read that name, please, Mr. Collins?

A. Jesse Brown.

Q. Does that refresh your recollection about——

A. Yes.

MR. FINKEL: Okay. If we can zoom out of that,

please, Ms. Loftus.

Q. Did Jesse Brown purport to sign this document that's on

your screen?

A. I never discussed this document with Jesse Brown.

Q. Have you seen this document before?

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O6E1GUO2

A. I don't believe so.

Q. Who signed this document, based on your review of it right

now?

A. It appears that Jesse Brown signed the document.

MR. FINKEL: Okay. Could we please display for the

witness only GX 113.

THE COURT: It's now 3:00, so we'll stop here.

Members of the jury, we're going to return on Monday

with our new schedule, 9:30 to 11:30, with a half-an-hour

break, and then 12 to 2:30, with another half-hour break,

returning at 3 and then going until 5. On Wednesday there will

be no court.

Remember that you're not allowed to discuss the case

amongst yourselves or with anyone else. Don't permit anyone to

discuss it in your presence, and don't read, watch, or listen

to anything from any source having to do with anything

concerning this matter.

Have a good weekend.

(Jury not present)

THE COURT: You may step out. Don't discuss your

testimony.

(Witness not present)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Is there anything before we break for the weekend?

MR. KAMARAJU: Nothing from the defense, your Honor.

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MR. FINKEL: Nor the government. Have a nice weekend,

your Honor.

THE COURT: Have a good weekend.

MR. KAMARAJU: Thank you, your Honor.

(Adjourned to June 17, 2024, at 9:00 a.m.)

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INDEX OF EXAMINATION

Examination of

Pag

JAMIE WILSON

2586Direct By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . . .

2596Cross By Mr. Barkan . . . . . . . . . . . . .

2619Redirect By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . .

2622Recross By Mr. Barkan . . . . . . . . . . . .

SAMUEL ROBERTS

2623Direct By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . . .

2685Cross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . . .

2737Redirect By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . .

2746Recross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . .

2751Redirect By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . .

JAMES ROBERT COLLINS

2753Direct By Mr. Finkel . . . . . . . . . . . . .

GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

Exhibit No. Received

106 2763 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

124 2758 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

BR190 2703 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

BR208A 2664 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

BR212 2678 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Translated Text(简体中文翻译)

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
O5VVGUO1  2024-6-14 庭审记录    第 1 / 144页 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
美国纽约南区法院 
-------------------------------------------------------x 
美国政府
控方    23 Cr. 118 (AT) 
郭文贵 
                        辩方
-------------------------------------------------------x 
                   
                          纽约州纽约市， 
                 2024 年 6 月 14 日 
                 上午 9:00  
庭前:
尊敬的阿娜丽莎-托雷斯法官大人
地区法官
-陪审团-
出庭律师:
 达米安-威廉姆斯 
        纽约南区美国联邦检察官 
代表：迈卡·F·费根森 
        瑞安·B·芬克 
        贾斯廷·霍顿 
        朱莉安娜·N·莫里 
        助理美国检察官 
 
萨布丽娜·P·施洛夫 
        被告律师 
PRYOR CASHMAN LLP 
        被告律师 
代表：西德哈达·卡马拉珠 
        马修·巴尔坎 
 ALSTON & BIRD LLP 
        被告律师

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
O5VVGUO1  2024-6-14 庭审记录    第 2 / 144页 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
代表：E·斯科特·舒里克 
  
出席人员： 
伊莎贝尔·洛夫特斯，法律助理，美国检察官办公室 
鲁本·蒙蒂利亚，辩方律师助理 
黄拓，普通话翻译 
石峰，普通话翻译 
唐玉马克，普通话翻译

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
O5VVGUO1  2024-6-14 庭审记录    第 3 / 144页 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
（审判继续；陪审团不在场） 
法官说：早上好。请各位出示身份。 
莫里律师说：早上好，法官大人。朱莉安娜·莫里、瑞安·芬克律师和贾斯汀·霍顿代表美国。
我们的法律助理是伊莎贝尔·洛夫特斯。 
巴尔坎律师说：早上好，法官大人。我是马修·巴尔坎，代表被告郭文贵。不久后施洛夫
律师和舒里克律师会加入我们。 
法官说：请坐。现在有人想要提出什么问题吗？ 
芬克律师说：不算是问题，只是想向法庭提一下昨天上午讨论的事情。大约在昨天 3 点钟，
我们向辩方发送了一份我们为那次提交的材料制作的目录，据我了解，这份目录列出了每份文件
及其内容。我们认为这对他们会有帮助。 
法官说：请对着麦克风讲话。你说你们制作了一份目录。 
芬克律师说：是的，我们的团队为Mercantile的材料制作了一份目录，据我了解，这份目
录列出了每份文件及其内容。例如，根据标题之类的东西。我们认为这会有帮助，也符合法庭的
要求。我只是想说明我们已经做了这些。就这些。 
施洛夫律师说：辩方没有什么要说的，法官大人。早上好。 
法官说：那么你们将在 9:29让证人回到证人席上。 
（休庭）  
（陪审团不在场） 
法官说：就在我刚离开审判台之后，我收到了辩方的一封信。我会听取你们的意见。 
施洛夫律师说：法官大人，正如信中所述，我们理解法庭已经对较长的庭审时间作出了裁
决。我们只是要求政府按照其证人顺序，这样对我们会有帮助，考虑到我们在信中详细说明的其
他限制。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
O5VVGUO1  2024-6-14 庭审记录    第 4 / 144页 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
法官说：我会听取政府方面的意见。 
芬克律师说：好的，法官大人，我们一直努力以诚信的态度提供证人名单的顺序。我们的
证人是人，其中很多是平民，有些有律师，有些需要旅行。有时会遇到一些难以解决的后勤问题。
我可以明确地告诉法庭，我们提供的证人顺序是我们打算按这个顺序传唤的，但有时会有变动。
因此，如果情况发生了变化，我们会处理。这在审判中是常有的事，我想辩护律师也知道这一点。
我们当然会像之前那样，向辩方提供我们即将传唤的证人顺序，并努力按计划执行。如果有任何
变化，我们会实时与辩方沟通。 
我可以告诉法庭，我与辩护团队的成员进行了多次对话，虽然他们现在不在这里，但我与
其他辩护团队成员讨论了这些日程安排问题。我们进行了很好的对话。因此，我们将继续这样做，
并继续提前提供证据，以帮助辩方并使这次审判更加高效。我们肯定会尽我们所能，使审判尽可
能高效和坦诚。 
施洛夫律师说：法官大人，这并不是我们的经历。正因为我们遇到了困难，辩护团队的一
名成员才与美国检察官办公室的一名主管进行了交谈。我们仍然很难适应这个时间表。无论这是
出于善意还是恶意，问题是我们仍然不得不进行调整。例如，昨天的证人今天还要继续作证，这
使得两名律师不能和委托人在法庭上，而是需要出去准备。这对任何人来说都不是最佳的安排。
这种情况在整个审判过程中发生了很多次。当然，证人是人，这是理所当然的，这就是为什么他
们是证人。但问题是，我们辩护方的人也是人，我们也需要调整。 
而我们面临的最大难题是不得不在 MDC 来回奔波，顺便提一句，那里一直在持续封锁。
那天晚上，我在下午 3 点的审判结束后 5点去了那里，情况一团糟。我再次被告知有延误。他们
现在更改了点人数的时间，所以 MDC 有了新的点人数时间表。因此，证人顺序的重新调整对辩
护团队来说就像多米诺骨牌效应一样。这是——芬克先生，我还没有说完。我看不到法官。谢谢。 
所以，不管政府是否在努力，这并不是我所担心的问题。我担心的是我们能否在审判中进
行移动，然后提取所有的证据，这些证据总是在最后一刻才拿到。昨天的证人，证据是在凌晨
1:30 才拿到的。所以这不是善意还是恶意的问题，而是我们所面临的现实。因此，如果政府能
够在周六中午之前给我们提供证人名单，那会很好。如果他们能够坚持这个名单，那就更好了。
如果我们真的无法应对，法官大人，我们会再次向法庭反映情况。 
芬克律师说：法官大人，我能回应几个要点吗？

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法官说：可以。  
芬克律师说：首先，我不想说这个，但因为施洛夫律师刚才提出的问题，我现在必须说。
有很多次，我们四人中的成员，尤其是我，曾多次接近施洛夫律师讨论后勤问题，但被明确告知
“离我远点”。这是直接引用。好吧，政府试图与施洛夫律师解决这些问题，这就是我们的回应。
幸运的是，辩护团队的其他成员没有这样回应，我们与其他辩护团队成员的沟通很好，但我想让
法庭知道施洛夫律师刚才所说的情况。  
此外，关于威尔森女士，我认为我们在 5 月 26 日就将她作为可能的证人提供，包括我们
打算引入的她的证物。因为其他证人的交叉询问时间很长，她被推迟到了现在。本周证人顺序的
变化如下：星期天——我们向法庭报告了这一点——我们决定不传唤保罗·索齐。我们想简化我
们的案件，所以我们把他从日程表上移除了。然后在是金·埃斯皮诺萨还是杰米·威尔森之间有些
反复。我们认为应该先是金·埃斯皮诺萨，然后我们认为应该是杰米·威尔森。原因是威尔森女士
有一位家庭成员生病了，然后是埃斯皮诺萨女士的旅行安排。所以这些反复改变了。 
我们尽力与辩方沟通，并一直努力这样做。法官大人，今晚会发生的事情，以及我们每个
周末后的周五都会做的事情，就是我们四人，更多的是我们的案子代理人和法律助理，都会回到
26 号联邦大楼。我们讨论本周发生的事情，讨论下周可以传唤谁，并尝试考虑审判的长期计划；
我们的证人是谁，他们是否有空，我们最近与谁联系过，这需要时间。然后我们会回去，看日程，
规划我们认为可以传唤的证人，并猜测交叉询问会持续多久。这就是我们做的。然后我们联系律
师或证人，确保我们认为对陪审团来说最好的听取证据的日期符合大家的时间安排。 
有时我们直到周六之后才了解到日程安排的困难，因为我们一直在告诉辩方，周六中午前
我们的证人顺序；但由于涉及到人，有时会发生变化。所以法官大人，我没有问题，政府也没有
问题与辩方沟通。如果我们今晚能做到，我们会做到，我们预期的证人顺序，并尽一切可能坚持
这个顺序。我们会努力这样做。如果因为安排问题或其他问题而出现任何问题，我们会实时告知
辩方。这没有问题。 
法官说：所以你预计今晚能给他们证人名单？ 
芬克律师说：我们可以做到。我唯一要说的是，我们可能无法与所有证人和/或他们的律
师联系，所以可能会有一些变化。因此，是的，我们今晚可以给他们我们预计的证人名单，但我
只是想完全坦诚地告诉法庭，有时由于我们无法控制的因素会发生变化。

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法官说：在审判过程中，证人顺序的变化是很常见的。这种情况非常普遍。然而，如果这
种情况发展到辩护律师无法有效代表他们的客户，他们可以请求休庭。如果我认为有理由，我会
考虑批准这种请求。 
芬克律师说：我明白，法官大人。只是想完全明确地说，这里没有任何花招。这只是安排
上的困难，试图在我们不了解的情况下适当地安排时间，而交叉询问的时间有时是个黑箱。但我
们听到法官大人的话，我们一直非常注意法官大人一开始在更衣室里对我们的指示。我们一直在
考虑这一点，我可以告诉法庭，我们四个人经常讨论这个问题。所以今晚我们会尝试在九点前提
供一个预计顺序的名单。可能需要稍长时间。我们会按照我们预计的顺序提供名单。如果有变化，
我们会实时通知辩方，包括我们改变的原因，无论是时间安排还是其他原因。 
法官说：施洛夫律师，你真的说过“离我远点”吗？ 
施洛夫律师说：我确实这样做了，法官大人。在之前的一次审判中，我与芬克律师的经历
让我多次告诉他，我不会是他的联系人，他应该与团队的其他成员沟通。与芬克律师在之前的审
判中，我确实遇到过这个问题，我不想在法庭上详细说明。但最重要的是，我向芬克律师提供了
三位其他律师，并提供了电子邮件联系。我坚持这一点，因为我多次告诉芬克律师，我不愿意在
非正式场合与他交谈。基于我在另一个审判中的经验，这是我的立场，法官大人。我坦诚地告诉
法庭。 
所以我以前遇到过这个困难，但团队里还有三位成员进行了这些长时间的、复杂的对话，
尽管如此，我们的团队仍然不得不去检察官办公室的主管那里，因为我们仍然和刚开始时处于同
样的困境。木兰是一个完美的例子，法官大人。政府说我们应该更早到并且多工作一天，因为他
们认为我们在她的日程安排上玩把戏。木兰提前结束，然后他们传唤了另外两名证人来支持。木
兰被安排在顺序之外，对我们来说是一个压力。我们仍然早来，仍然晚走。所以，是的，我与芬
克律师的历史经验让我要求他与团队的其他成员沟通。 
法官说：嗯，你可以提出这个要求，但你不能简单地说我不会与检方团队成员交谈，或者
他不能与你交谈。这在专业上是不合适的，所以我指示你可以要求他不直接与你交谈，但你不能
告诉他你完全不会参与对话。 
施洛夫律师说：法官大人，我不在非正式场合与芬克律师交谈，因为根据我以往的经验，
这对我的客户没有积极影响。尽管如此，我已经提供了辩护团队的每一位成员以及电子邮件通讯

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的联系方式。这样就没有人会说，施洛夫女士说了 X，而我说了 Y。这是最好的处理方式，因为
它显示了清晰的沟通和透明度。但我会按照法庭的指示处理，就像法庭发布的每一个指令一样。
但我再次指出，我在木兰的例子中的经历，以及在这里再次指出，由于整个团队遇到了相同的困
难，我们将此事升级到了主管层面。截至昨天，问题仍然存在。我不需要对此再多费口舌。我很
高兴接受法庭的指示并继续前进。 
芬克律师说：法官大人，抱歉，但对此我必须回应。我必须回应。现在这事已经摆在法官
大人面前了，我很抱歉。问题不仅仅是我，而是我们四个人。检方团队的每一位成员都表示，施
洛夫律师有这种“离我远点”的态度，这并没有建设性，而且与两周前在更衣室里法庭对我们的指
示相悖。 
法官大人，关于施洛夫律师提出的李娅的问题，之前的证人是珍妮·李。翻译存在问题，
施洛夫律师在审查记录以评估是否存在翻译问题。我提出了一些建议，如何使翻译更高效。施洛
夫律师在言语和态度上明确表示她故意拖延，因为她说——大意是，政府担心其证人的日程安排
问题，这句话是以讽刺的语气说的。这就是我们对当时情况的反应的原因。 
所有这些，法官大人，不应该摆在法庭面前。这与更衣室里的情况相反。最重要的是，我
要代表这个桌子上的人说，我认为也代表我们后面的那张桌子上的人说，政府会尽一切努力以专
业、高效的方式处理这个案件，包括与辩方进行实时沟通。事实上，当我们意识到生产问题时，
我们做的第一件事就是打电话给辩护团队的一名成员告诉他们这个问题，我们确实这样做了。所
以我们会继续这样做，并继续努力确保这个审判对法官大人和陪审团成员来说是高效的。 
施洛夫律师说：政府多次对法庭说的话暗示我们是在恶意行事。对对方律师的即兴评论并
不意味着我们在玩什么把戏。我们没有延迟交叉质询—— 
法官说：不过，说“不要跟我说话”这种处理对手的方式是不恰当的。这是完全不能接受的。 
施洛夫律师说：法官大人，这个团队里还有另外三个人。我停止与芬克律师沟通的原因是
这对我的团队或我的客户没有任何积极作用。 
法官说：好的。那么我要你明白，你必须参与沟通。你不能只是转身不理。

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施洛夫律师说：法官大人，我们一直努力给政府提供一个我们团队的联系人。一个人对一
个人沟通。这避免了来回扯皮，比如我告诉巴尔坎先生这个，或者我告诉施洛夫先生那个。这是
一个高效的处理方式。 
法官说：施洛夫律师，我已经听够了。我的意思是，你可以请求不要被直接联系，但你不
能坚持这个要求。如果检方团队与其他人沟通更高效，那没问题，但你不能采取不与检方团队沟
通的立场。这是绝对不可以接受的。 
施洛夫律师说：好的，法官大人。我会按照法庭的指示继续进行。但这里的记录应该清楚，
之所以将此事升级，是因为辩护团队中的任何一个人都无法通过与政府团队的沟通来履行对客户
的义务。正是由于这个原因，我们写信给了主管，与主管进行了交谈，并向法庭递交了一封信。
把这个责任推到我身上也可以。 
法官说：施洛夫律师，我已经听够了。我需要一会儿时间，然后我们开始。请让证人上证
人席。 
（休庭） 
（陪审团不在场） 
法官说：请让陪审员进来。 
法庭书记员说：陪审团入场。 
（陪审团在场） 
法官说：请坐。早上好，陪审员们。我们晚了五分钟开始。对此我很抱歉。这不是任何人
的错。我尽量保持准时。至于下周，我们将在 9:30开始。11:30到 12:00之间有一个休息时间，
2:30 到 3:00 之间再有一个休息时间。我们会在五点结束。记住，你们仍在宣誓下，可以继续询
问。 
莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 
杰米·威尔森，继续作证。

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直接询问继续 
由检方莫里律师询问： 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能展示政府证物 BOP-1 吗？早上好，威尔森女士。 
答：早上好。 
问：昨天我们谈到普林斯顿银行的 G-Clubs 账户。洛夫特斯女士，我们能翻到第 26 页吗？威尔
森女士，这是什么文件？ 
答：这是一个 QualiFile或支票系统报告。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能翻到下一页吗？威尔森女士，普林斯顿银行为谁或哪个实体进行了
QualiFile检查，用于 G-Clubs 账户？ 
答：为 G-Clubs和账户的签名人进行了检查。这特别是为其中一位签名人王雁平。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能放大顶部的表格吗？普林斯顿银行对王雁平或王雁平的 QualiFile 查
询有多少次？ 
答：九次。 
问：有哪些不同的金融机构对王雁平有 QualiFile响应？ 
答：花旗银行，第一资本，第一共和银行，桑坦德银行，NexBank，Signature 银行和普林斯顿
银行。 
问：在这九次查询中，七次是在 2020 年 6 月至 2020 年 10 月之间，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你能提醒我们 QualiFile响应意味着什么吗？它反映了什么行动？ 
答：这意味着在那个金融机构开设了一个账户，所以他们通过技术系统对客户进行了检查。 
问：在你对 G-Clubs 账户的 BSA分析中，王雁平的多次 QualiFile响应如何影响你的分析？

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答：这会让我们的机构认为风险更高，因为有人在短时间内在多个不同的银行开设了多个账户。  
问：为什么这会使客户风险更高？ 
答：因为通常情况下，个人或实体会在少数几家银行保持账户，也许两到三家，而不是七八家。 
问：G-Clubs 账户是否在普林斯顿银行开设了？ 
答：是的。 
问：该账户开设后，你是否与 G-Clubs 账户有任何关系？如果有，具体是什么关系？ 
答：账户开设时，就像任何其他账户一样，我们会审查所有开户文件，并监控该账户。有些账户
风险高，所以我们可能会比低风险账户更频繁地监控。 
问���具体到 G-Clubs 账户，作为 BSA（银行保密法）官员，在你的工作过程中，你是如何监控
该账户的？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：我们审查所有开户文件，包括商业文件和个人文件。我们审查账户开设时进入账户的资金。 
问：G-Clubs是什么类型的业务？ 
答：它是一家国际奢侈生活公司。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能看一下这个证物的第 23页吗？威尔森女士，这是什么类型的文件？ 
答：这是一个成立证书。 
问：这是与开户有关提交的文件之一吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能放大页面中间的第 3条吗？Wilson女士，这一部分的标题是第 3条，
业务性质。请您朗读一下这份公司文件中 G-Clubs声称的加粗文本内容。 
答：会员礼宾服务，为来自亚洲市场的高净值人士提供豪华酒店和零售商的独家优惠和折扣。公
司还可以从事波多黎各政府法律授权的任何其他活动。

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问：谢谢。威尔森女士，在您进行 BSA 分析的过程中，您是否对 G-Clubs 进行了任何公开来源
的调查？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：我们做了一些背景调查，主要是通过谷歌搜索这家企业，看看它是什么类型的业务，提供什
么样的奢侈服务。 
法官说：你能提醒陪审员 BSA 代表什么吗？ 
证人说：好的。BSA 是《银行保密法》。根据《银行保密法》，我们监控账户的洗钱和
恐怖融资活动。 
问：您对 G-Clubs进行公开来源调查的结果是什么？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：看起来像是一家初创公司。网站并没有太多内容，但我们发现它不仅仅是 G-Clubs。他们与
其他不同类型的奢侈品公司有关，比如服装，还有他们自己的比特币或加密货币，看起来他们在
生成自己的加密货币，所以在G-Clubs内部还有其他不同的奢侈品公司。我们还发现这与郭文贵
可能是所有者有关。 
问：郭文贵是谁？ 
答：当我们进行调查时，发现郭文贵有很多负面新闻报道，说他被中国驱逐出境，还有不同的洗
钱和其他负面新闻，这在我们看来引起了很多警示。 
问：你从调查中发现了郭文贵与试图开设账户的 G-Clubs公司的什么联系？ 
答：他是这家企业的所有者或创办者。 
问：郭文贵与 G-Clubs的关联在你的 BSA分析中有何影响？ 
答：当时我们认为这是一个风险，我们不想在我们的机构中保留这些账户，所以我们选择关闭与
该实体相关的所有账户。 
问：在普林斯顿银行决定关闭G-Clubs账户之前，您还记得该账户的活动情况吗？如果有，请具
体说明。

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答：对于 G-Clubs，他们存入了——我想说是 1000 万或 1500 万美元到银行。在他们花费这笔
钱之前，我们关闭了账户并将资金转出。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能展示政府证物 BOP-3 吗？威尔森女士，这是什么类型的文件？ 
答：这是银行对账单。 
问：是哪个实体的？ 
答：G-Clubs Operations, LLC。 
问：看左上角，洛夫特斯女士，我们能放大吗？这里显示的是G-Clubs Operations LLC，下面列
出了什么？ 
答：会员 590 Madison Avenue, Floor 21, New York, New York 10022-2545。 
问：这是 2020 年 11 月 30 日结束的期间的对账单吗？ 
巴尔坎律师说：反对。她在作证。 
问：威尔森女士，这是什么日期的对账单？ 
答：截止到 2020 年 11 月 30 日的对账单。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能放大下面的账户活动部分吗？威尔森女士，这份对账单显示的 G-
Clubs会员账户的期初余额是多少？ 
答：负五美元。 
问：日期是什么时候？ 
答：2020 年 10 月 31 日。 
问：在这个月期间有多少次存款？ 
答：七次存款。 
问：金额是多少？

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答：13,500,005美元。 
问：你能看看这些存款的日期和金额吗？请读出这些存款的日期和金额。 
答：2020 年 11 月 2 日，有一笔 5 美元的杂项存款。2020 年 11 月 3 日，有一笔来自 G-Clubs 
Operations, LLC 的 200 万美元的电汇存款，2020 年 11 月 3 日，还有一笔来自 G-Clubs 
Operations的 300万美元的电汇存款。 
问：具体到 G-Clubs Operations 的这两笔入账电汇，您能确定这些电汇来自 G-Clubs 的哪些账
户吗？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：从这份对账单上你可以看到这些钱来自他们自己。它们来自另一家机构。 
问：在“电汇”字样后面，每笔电汇都有相关的号码，这些号码是一样的吗？ 
答：不，它们是两笔不同的电汇。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能看一下下一页，第三页吗？谢谢。再一次放大顶部部分，剩余的电汇。
威尔森女士，请你读一下这些额外四笔电汇的日期和金额？ 
答：2020 年 11 月 4 日，200万美元；2020 年 11 月 4 日，200万美元；2020 年 11 月 6 日，
250万美元；2020 年 11 月 13 日，200万美元。 
问：我们可以缩小了。谢谢。威尔森女士，你能确定在 2020 年 11 月几天内进入 G-Clubs 账户
的这 1350万美元的来源是什么吗？ 
答：只是知道它们来自他们在其他金融机构的账户。 
问：你提到普林斯顿银行决定关闭 G-Clubs及其相关账户，对吗？ 
答：对。 
问：与 G-Clubs 相关的其他账户是什么？ 
答：其他账户是 Greenwich和 Lamp Capital。

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问：在 G-Clubs开设普林斯顿银行账户时，它是否向银行披露了与 Lamp或Greenwich Land的
关联？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：所有三个账户都是通过海瑟曼·哈立德和斯蒂芬·洛万迪向我们介绍的，他们是我们机构这三
个账户的同一投资顾问。 
问：这些账户之间的关联在您的 BSA分析中起到了什么作用？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：我我们在审查这些账户时发现了一些警示信号，并且发现了与郭文贵的关联。当我们调查丹
尼尔·波达斯基时，我们的研究指出他也是郭文贵的律师。因此，所有三个账户都是由同一投资
顾问介绍的，再加上这些关联都来自同一投资顾问，而G-Clubs的最终所有者与其他两个商业账
户的签署人之间也有联系，因此我们选择关闭这三个账户。 
问：为了明确，威尔森女士，你说丹尼尔·波达斯基是他的律师，你了解到丹尼尔·波达斯基是谁
的律师？ 
答：郭文贵。 
问：普林斯顿银行决定关闭这些账户时，是如何通知账户持有人这个决定的？如果有，请具体说
明。 
答：我们的零售主管联系了海瑟曼·哈立德，告诉他我们做出了基于风险的决定，关闭他们的账
户。 
问：海瑟曼·哈立德是如何回应的？如果有，请具体说明。 
巴尔坎律师说：反对，传闻信息。 
法官说：反对有效。 
问：普林斯顿银行从账户持有人那里收到了什么回应吗？ 
巴尔坎律师说：同样反对，法官大人。 
法官说：反对有效。

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问：普林斯顿银行决定关闭账户并通知账户持有人后，你是否参与了关于账户关闭的进一步沟通？ 
答：我看到了邮件，并被转发了零售主管与海瑟曼·哈立德之间讨论的邮件。 
问：从那些电子邮件中，您了解到了有关账户关闭过程的哪些信息？如果有，请具体说明。 
巴尔坎律师说：同样反对，法官大人。 
法官说：反对有效。 
莫里律师说：法官大人，我可以稍等一下吗？ 
（暂停） 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能再看一下政府证物 BOP-1 的底部吗？底部有一个账户关闭的印章。
威尔森女士，普林斯顿银行在什么日期关闭了 G-Clubs 账户？ 
答：2020 年 11 月 25日。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能看一下下一页，右下角的日期。普林斯顿银行在什么日期开设了 G-
Clubs 账户？ 
答：2020 年 10 月 30 日。 
问：那么这个账户在普林斯顿银行开设了大约多长时间？ 
答：大约一个月。 
问：在这一个月期间，这个账户收到了多少资金？ 
答：大约近 1500万美元。 
莫里律师说：没有其他问题了，法官大人。谢谢。 
法官说：交叉询问。 
巴尔坎律师说：是的，法官大人。

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交叉询问 
由辩方巴尔坎律师询问： 
问：早上好，威尔森女士。 
答：早上好。 
问：你在直接询问中谈到了 G-Clubs 账户的开设，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以展示 GX-BOP-1 吗？可以公开这个文件。莫里律师在直接询问时向你展示了这份
文件，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：这些是 G-Clubs的开户文件，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：王雁平女士是账户的所有者和签名人，对吗？ 
答：是的，她是账户的签名人。 
问：我们可以看一下第二页吗？左上角显示第二个签名人是 Alex Hadjicharalambous，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以看一下第十三页吗？根据普林斯顿银行的要求，王女士提供了她的护照信息，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：我们可以看一下第十四页吗？王女士提供了她的桑坦德信用卡的副本，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：桑坦德是一家全球性的银行，对吗？

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答：是的。 
问：它是 FDIC保险的，对吗？ 
答：据我所知，是的。 
问：我们可以看一下第十五页吗？左上角写着美国就业授权，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：所以王女士提供了她被授权在美国工作的证明，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：请看第十八页。Hadjicharalambous先生提供了他的护照信息，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以看一下第十九页吗？先生也提供了他的驾驶执照，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：我们可以看一下第 21页吗？顶部写着普林斯顿银行的实际受益所有人认证，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：请把页面中间部分放大。C项写道：对于通过任何合同安排、协议、关系或其他方式直接或
间接拥有上述法人实体 25%或以上股权的每个人，如果有，请提供以下信息。我读得正确吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：在下面的表格中你看到了何浩然的名字，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：有一个英国的地址，对吗？ 
答：对的。

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问：这是他的正确地址，对吗？ 
答：据我们所知，是的。 
问：普林斯顿银行确认这是他的正确地址，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
莫里律师说：反对。 
法官说：请稍等。看来陪审员可能看不到屏幕。好的，我们需要解决这个问题。你能否问
一些不需要屏幕的问题，或者你需要屏幕来提问？ 
巴尔坎律师说：目前我需要屏幕，法官大人。 
法官说：你们能否稍微靠过去看屏幕？我们正在努力恢复你们的屏幕，但在此期间，请看
第二排的屏幕。好的，你可以继续。 
巴尔坎律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 
问：我们可以看一下第 20 页吗？我们可以放大左上角的部分吗？何先生提供了他的护照信息，
对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：所以他自己披露了他拥有 G-Clubs 25％或以上的股权，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：威尔森女士，你在直接询问中提到了 QualiFile，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：这是新客户验证过程的一部分，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：可以说这是普林斯顿银行的 KYC过程的一部分吗，即了解你的客户过程？

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答：是的。 
问：我们可以看一下第 26页吗？我们可以放大一点。这里写着 QualiFile响应，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以缩小一点。往下看一点，那里写着商业信息，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：上面写着 G-Clubs Operations, LLC，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：在页面底部你看到那里写着支票系统历史吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：下面写着没有发现关闭账户，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：写着没有发现已购债务，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：写着没有发现之前的查询，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：所以 QualiFile在 G-Clubs Operations, LLC 的报告中没有发现任何问题，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以看一下第 27页吗？这是王女士的 QualiFile报告，对吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：我们放大页面底部，可以看到“支票系统历史”，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：再次确认，没有发现关闭记录，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：没有发现已购债务，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：我们可以看一下第 28 页吗？你在直接询问中提到，QualiFile 调查的一部分是调查申请人在
其他银行开设账户的情况，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：所以当其他银行询问王女士时，她向那些银行提供了她的文件，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：所以她向桑坦德银行提供了文件吗？ 
答：是的。 
莫里律师说：反对。这位证人怎么知道王女士是否向其他银行提供了她的信息。 
法官说：你只能就你知道的事情作证。如果你知道她是否向桑坦德银行提供了信息，你可
以回答。如果你不知道，你就说不知道。 
答：我不知道她具体提供了什么，但我知道从这页上看，她去过银行并询问开设账户。 
问：有道理。同样的情况适用于花旗银行，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：同样的情况适用于第一资本银行，对吗？

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答：对的。 
问：我们可以回到第 27页并放大中间部分吗？对于王女士，你看到“账户操作”了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：写着“操作接受”，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：写着“推荐操作，开设账户”，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以看一下第 30页吗？这是 Alex Hadjicharalambous的 QualiFile报告，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：推荐操作是“开设账户”，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：写着“操作接受”，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：威尔森女士，ORM查询是什么？ 
答：我不确定。 
问：我们可以看一下第 31页并放大顶部部分吗？ 
答：这是 OFAC查询。 
问：我没听清你说什么。 
答：OFAC查询，即外国资产控制办公室的查询。

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问：这个查询是作为银行新客户 KYC过程的一部分进行的吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：所以顶部写着 ORM查询王雁平，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：在一个框内写着“嫌疑匹配”，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：什么是嫌疑匹配？ 
答：嫌疑匹配是指他们正在进行的对比，所以显示王雁平的名字，显示没有找到匹配。如果有潜
在匹配，它们会列在下面，而不是显示没有找到匹配。 
问：所以银行的 OFAC查询没有发现王雁平的嫌疑匹配，对吗？ 
答：对的。  
问：我们可以看一下第 32页的顶部并放大吗？这页显示的是 Alex Hadjicharalambous的 OFAC
查询结果吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：对于 Hadjicharalambous先生，没有嫌疑匹配，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：我们可以看一下第 33页并放大顶部吗？这显示的是 G-Clubs Operations, LLC 的 ORM查询
结果，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：再次确认，没有发现嫌疑匹配，对吗？ 
答：对的。

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问：谢谢，我们可以关掉这个。威尔森女士，除了 QualiFile 和 OFAC，普林斯顿银行在这些账
户上还进行了其他查询吗？ 
答：我们进行了 QualiFile和 OFAC查询，除此之外，我们只审查了签名人提供的开户文件。 
问：如我们所见，G-Clubs Operations 账户的签名人提供了普林斯顿银行要求的所有身份证
明，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：所以王女士和 Hadjicharalambous先生提供了他们的身份证明，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：他们通过了银行的 KYC过程，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：G-Clubs Operations本身也通过了银行的 KYC过程，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：实际受益所有人已经披露，对吗？ 
答：其中一个，是的。 
问：实际受益所有人何浩然已经披露，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
法官说：那么银行的 KYC系统建议开设账户，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：银行实际上也开设了这些账户，对吗？ 
答：对的。

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问：并且允许它们获得资金，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：你在直接询问中还提到一个名为 Greenwich Land, LLC 的实体在银行有账户，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：并且是波达斯基先生签署文件开设了那个账户，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你同意波达斯基先生提供了普林斯顿银行要求的开户身份证明，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：波达斯基先生在披露他是律师时，提供了真实的职业信息，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：验证一个人是否是声誉良好的律师很简单，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：反对。 
法官说：如果你知道，可以回答。 
答：我们可以通过互联网进行研究，看看他们是否是目前的律师。如果我们相信提供的互联网研
究结果，那么我们有可能进行验证。 
问：你对波达斯基先生进行了这项研究，对吗？ 
答：我对波达斯基进行了研究。 
莫里律师说：反对，根据法庭之前对此问题的裁决。 
法官说：请到边栏来。 
（边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场）

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法官说：在直接询问中，波达斯基被认定为G-Clubs的律师，因此询问他是否声誉良好是
合理的。你计划再问几个问题吗？ 
巴尔坎律师说：几个问题，法官大人。只是确认在开设账户时他披露了自己是律师。这不
是他们后来发现的。 
莫里律师说：法官大人，我们理解这一点，并且我们认为这已经确定了。关于他是否声誉
良好以及银行对他声誉的调查结果的进一步问题，暗示了某种程度上的合法性，这在法庭之前的
裁决范围内。 
巴尔坎律师说：法官大人，我无意询问他是否声誉良好的问题。 
法官说：你确实问过她是否进行了研究。等一下。你确实问过她是否研究了他作为声誉良
好的律师的身份，我认为这是可以接受的，因为他作为律师的身份在直接询问中被提及，但进一
步强调他作为律师的身份是不合适的。 
巴尔坎律师说：法官大人，我本来打算确认他提交给银行的身份证件之一是他的律师身份
证，我想确认他们在开设账户之前就有这个信息。这是在申请中提交的。所以如果他们抱怨说他
们后来才发现他是律师，我认为陪审团需要听到这一点。 
法官说：如果这是申请过程的一部分，而莫里律师已经提及，那么我认为你问这个问题是
可以的。 
莫里律师说：法官大人，关于这一点，我们再次认为这一点已经确定了。没有证人指控波
达斯基先生在开设账户过程中没有披露他是律师。事实上，她说这是她在审查账户时的一个警示
信号。但是继续深入探讨这个问题，我们认为这再次超出了法庭的裁决，并试图暗示某种法律顾
问的认可。 
法官说：你可以问关于身份证的问题，我认为这是可以的。你还想问其他问题吗？ 
巴尔坎律师说：没有了，法官大人。 
法官说：好的，谢谢。 
（回到公开法庭上；陪审团在场）

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辩方律师巴尔坎先生继续问： 
问：我们可以展示 GX-BOP-7 吗？威尔森女士，这是波达斯基先生在银行申请中提供的身份证
明，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：左下角写着“律师安全通行证”，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：反对无效。 
答：对的。 
问：我这里的最后一个问题是，这个证件是与开户文件一起提交的，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过了。 
法官说：反对有效。 
问：所以普林斯顿银行知道波达斯基先生是律师，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过了。 
法官说：反对有效。 
巴尔坎律师说：我继续问下一个问题。 
问：除了波达斯基先生的身份证明外，Greenwich Land的实际受益所有人岳庆芝也被披露了，
对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：她的身份证明也提供了，对吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：波达斯基先生、Greenwich Land和岳女士通过了银行的 KYC程序，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：然后普林斯顿银行为 Greenwich Land开设了账户，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：并允许这些账户获得资金，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你在直接询问中还提到一个名为 Lamp Capital, LLC 的实体在银行有账户，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：波达斯基先生也签署了那些账户的开户文件，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：他提供了普林斯顿银行要求的身份证明，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：Lamp Capital的实际受益所有人也被披露了，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：他的文件，他的护照，也提供了，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：所以波达斯基先生、Lamp Capital及其实际受益所有人都通过了银行的 KYC程序，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：因此，银行为 Lamp Capital 开设了账户，对吗？

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答：是的。 
问：并允许这些账户获得资金，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过了。 
法官说：反对有效。 
问：你在直接询问中说到你觉得波达斯基先生是 Greenwich 和 Lamp 账户的签名人，但他不是
实际受益所有人，这让你感到担忧，对吗？ 
答：他不是这些商业的所有者，是的。 
法官说：请把麦克风靠近你一点，巴尔坎律师，你也是。 
问：我没有听到你的回答。 
答：他不是这两家商业的所有者。 
问：对。但 Greenwich Land的申请披露了岳女士是实际受益所有人，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：对于 Lamp Capital，那份申请披露了郭强是实际受益所有人，对吗？ 
答：对，我不记得具体的名字，但我们披露了两个不同的实际受益所有人。 
问：所以波达斯基先生不是实际受益所有人并不是普林斯顿银行在开设账户时的问题，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：你说到你担心这些账户中的资金流动量，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：G-Clubs我们在直接询问中看到过一次有 1350万美元在其账户中，对吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：Greenwich Land大约有 1000万美元？ 
答：是的。 
问：Lamp Capital大约有 1100万美元？ 
答：是的。 
问：你的证词是以前没有人在普林斯顿银行存入过这么多钱，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：反对，这歪曲了她的证词。 
法官说：反对有效。 
问：你以前在普林斯顿银行看到过这样的资金流动吗？ 
答：据我所知，没有贷款关系时没有。 
问：对不起，请再说一遍。 
答：据我所知，没有贷款关系时没有。 
问：事实上，普林斯顿银行在 G-Clubs 账户开设之前就知道将会有多少钱进入该账户，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：反对。 
答：不。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 
问：我们可以调出证物 GX-SW-2032，它在证据中。谢谢。我们可以看一下 PDF 的第五页，并
放大底部的那封邮件吗？威尔森女士，你看到这是 2020 年 10 月 21 日海瑟曼·哈立德发给普林斯
顿银行的 Debra Von Gonten和 Miriam Colon的邮件吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：你认识 Von Gonten女士和 Colon女士吗？

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答：认识。 
问：所以她们是你在银行的同事，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你能读一下下面第二段吗，"Hi Debra and Miriam"开始的那段？ 
答：我们有另一个客户与 Signature 银行有银行关系。他们是一家国际会员制豪华生活服务的初
创公司，有大约 1600 名会员，目前余额为 1500 万，我们希望帮助他们在普林斯顿银行也开设
一个账户。你能给我发一封邮件告知可用的货币市场账户利率吗？这就是 MMA 的意思。  
问：你可以关掉这个了，谢谢。威尔森女士，你现在明白���林斯顿银行提前知道G-Clubs将带来
多少资金，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 
答：我不在那个邮件链中，所以在开设账户时我不知道，但那些人会知道。 
问：你在直接询问中被问到 ACA Capital Group Limited和 Greenwich Land之间的贷款协议，对
吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：我们可以调出证物GX-BOP-40，它在证据中。对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：我们可以滚动到第二页底部，第三页顶部。这是 Miriam Colon 发给海瑟曼·哈立德和丹尼
尔·波达斯基的邮件，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：昨天在直接询问中你被展示了这封邮件，对吗？

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答：是的。 
问：你的同事 Colon女士在 11 月 24 日发邮件给哈立德先生和波达斯基先生，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：她要求提供她之前请求的信息，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以滚动到第二页的更上面吗？这是那天晚些时候的 11 月 24 日的邮件。 
答：是的。 
问：重复一遍，这是 11 月 24 日，星期二，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以滚动到顶部部分。12 月 1 日，Colon 女士再次向波达斯基先生和哈立德先生重申
她的信息请求，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我们可以滚动到第一页底部。我们看到波达斯基先生在 12 月 2 日回复了邮件，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：他提供了贷款协议中的请求信息，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：威尔森女士，你知道感恩节是在每年 11 月的第四个星期四，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：在 2020 年，11 月的第四个星期四是 11 月 26 日，对吗？ 
答：我不太确定。

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问：我告诉你—— 
答：我没有日历。 
法官说：不要作证。 
问：星期五是 11 月 27日，对吗？ 
答：如果星期四是 26 日，那么是的。 
问：28 日和 29 日是周末，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：星期一是 11 月 30 日，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：所以两天后，即 12 月 2 日，波达斯基先生回复了贷款协议的请求信息，对吗？ 
答：是的，他在 12 月 2 日回复了。 
问：我们可以看一下 PDF 的第五页吗？我们可以放大上半部分。这是波达斯基先生提供的贷款
协议，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：昨天在直接询问中你被展示了这个，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：波达斯基先生是普林斯顿银行 Greenwich Land账户的签名人，对吗？ 
答：是的。  
问：请你看一下第一点，ACA Capital是基于香港的，对吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：你可以关掉这个了。威尔森女士，你作证说有一次你建议关闭账户，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你开始对 G-Clubs进行一些网站调查，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我认为你说你进行了谷歌搜索？ 
答：是的。 
问：你是亲自做的，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你发现了所谓的负面新闻，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：作为 BSA 官员，你在评估银行风险时会考虑负面新闻，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你发现了与郭文贵有关的其他企业的名字，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你看到了 GTV这个名字，对吗？  
答：是的。 
问：但负面新闻是来自国外的，对吗？ 
答：在互联网上看到的，所以。 
问：你记得告诉政府你找到的关于郭文贵的新闻是来自国外的，对吗？

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答：有些是的。 
问：你实际上告诉政府，美国国内关于郭文贵的负面新闻不多，对吗？ 
答：我没有说过这些确切的话，但我找到了很多关于他的负面新闻。 
问：来自国外的，对吗？ 
答：他从中国流亡，是的。 
问：所以你了解到郭文贵与中国当局有麻烦，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你了解到他从中国流亡，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：你了解到中国政府发出了针对他的国际刑警组织红色通缉令，对吗？ 
答：我不知道那是什么。 
问：你了解到中国政府冻结了他的资产，对吗？ 
答：不，我不知道。 
问：即使只是你找到的关于中国政府对他采取的负面新闻，这也足以让你关闭 Lamp、
Greenwich和 G-Clubs的账户，对吗？ 
莫里律师说：反对，这歪曲了她的证词。 
法官说：反对有效。 
巴尔坎律师说：没有其他问题了，法官大人。谢谢你，威尔森女士。 
检方律师莫里女士继续重新询问： 
问：威尔森女士，在交叉询问中你被问到关于 G-Clubs QualiFile响应的一些问题。你记得吗？

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答：记得。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以调出政府证物 BOP-1，并翻到第 26页。在我们调出的过程中，威
尔森女士，QualiFile 结果在你进行 BSA分析的各种考虑因素中起了什么作用？ 
答：如果 QualiFile 报告显示应拒绝某个账户，那么我们在银行会自动拒绝该账户。但我们还会
考虑其他因素，有时人们会对他们的社会安全号码进行冻结，所以我们要确保没有冻结情况。我
们还会查看在 QualiFile 报告中列出的时间段内开设了多少账户。如果在短时间内在多个机构开
设多个账户，这对我们来说会引起很多警示，因为这是诈骗者通常会做的事情。他们会在不同的
银行开设多个账户。作为 BSA 官员，这是一个警示。通常，作为个人或企业，你只会在很少的
银行开设账户。 
问：看这个，威尔森女士，G-Clubs QualiFile报告是在什么日期运行的？ 
答：2020 年 11 月 3 日。 
问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以看一下这个证物的第 25 页，就是前一页。G-Clubs Operations 是
什么时候成立的？ 
答：2020 年 10 月 7日。 
问：在 QualiFile报告运行之前，G-Clubs作为公司存在了大约几周？ 
答：不到一个月。 
问：我们可以把这个关掉，洛夫特斯女士。你在交叉询问中还被问到了一些关于何浩然地址的问
题。你记得那些问题吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：你去过何浩然在美国的家吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：你知道提供给普林斯顿银行的地址是否是他实际居住的地方吗？

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答：不知道。 
问：你还被问到关于 ACA Capital在香港的地址的问题，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：你去过 ACA Capital在香港的办公室吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：你知道 ACA Capital是否实际上在它提供给银行的地址运营吗？ 
答：不知道。 
问：你见过被列为账户最终实际受益所有人的郭强吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：你见过被列为多个账户签名人的王雁平吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：关于您对这三个客户 Lamp Capital、Greenwich Land和G/Clubs的 BSA分析，最终受益所
有人的身份对于您的 BSA分析有何相关性？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：他们是非居民外国人，这意味着他们不是美国公民。因此，我们银行的规定是，对于任何非
居民外国人，无论他们是账户的受益所有人还是签署人，我们都会更加频繁地监控他们，因为这
类人通常会进行大量的跨国电汇，因此我们喜欢对此进行监控。 
问：在您监控这些账户的期间，您发现了哪些与 BSA 分析相关的账户活动信息？这些信息对于
评估这些账户的风险有何相关性？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：大量资金流入账户后迅速被转出，这种活动与我们通常与投资资本或房地产业务相关的业务
类型不符。 
问：Lamp Capital和 Greenwich Land被银行描述为什么类型的业务？

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巴尔坎律师说：反对，超出范围。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 
答：它们是投资顾问或房地产业务。 
莫里律师说：法官大人，我可以稍等一下吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
莫里律师说：没有其他问题了。 
法官说：重新交叉询问。 
重新交叉询问，由辩方巴尔坎律师重进行询问： 
问：威尔森女士，实际受益所有人提供了普林斯顿银行要求的所有身份证明文件，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：Greenwich、Lamp和 G-Clubs都通过了银行的 KYC程序，对吗？ 
答：在开户时是的。 
问：这些账户已经开设并获得了资金，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
巴尔坎律师说：谢谢，没有其他问题了。 
法官说：还有其他问题吗？ 
莫里律师说：没有了，法官大人，谢谢。 
法官说：你可以离开了。 
（证人离场）

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法官说：政府可以传唤下一个证人。 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，政府传唤山姆·罗伯茨。 
（宣誓后，山姆·罗伯茨作为证人作证） 
法官说：请说出你的名字并拼写。 
证人说：山姆·戴维·罗伯茨，S-A-M-U-E-L, D-A-V-I-D, R-O-B-E-R-T-S。 
法官说：你可以提问了。 
直接询问 
由检方律师霍顿先生进行询问： 
问：早上好，罗伯茨先生。 
答：早上好。 
问：你在哪里工作？ 
答：我在 Bitgo工作。 
问：你能为陪审团和法庭记录员拼写一下这个名字吗？ 
答：B-I-T-G-O。 
问：罗伯茨先生，麻烦请你能把麦克风移近一点，可能我们会更容易听到你。Bitgo 所属的行业
是什么？ 
答：Bitgo在区块链和加密货币行业。 
问：你在那工作多久了？ 
答：三年零三个月。 
问：你在 Bitgo做什么工作？

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答：我在 Bitgo的合规团队工作，负责交易监控和调查。 
问：作为 Bitgo合规团队的一员，罗伯茨先生，你有没有审查过喜马拉雅交易所的账户？ 
答：有。 
问：我们稍后会谈到这个。一般来说，罗伯茨先生，Bitgo 在加密货币行业为客户提供什么服务？ 
答：Bitgo提供钱包服务和托管服务。 
问：你能解释一下钱包服务的意思吗？ 
答：可以。就是为我们的用户或客户提供一个钱包，让他们可以与区块链互动。 
问：在这个背景下，钱包的用途是什么？ 
答：钱包可以用来接收、持有和发送加密货币。 
问：罗伯茨先生，你在 Bitgo的职称是什么？ 
答：我是金融情报部门的负责人。 
问：作为 Bitgo 金融情报部门的负责人，您会审查哪些信息来执行您的工作？如果有，请具体说
明。 
答：我会审查各种信息，包括客户的账户资料信息、交易记录和其他信息。 
问：作为 Bitgo金融情报部门的一部分工作，你会了解 Bitgo客户业务的性质吗？ 
答：会。 
问：你了解 Bitgo客户业务的目的是什么？ 
答：为了了解他们在 Bitgo平台上的活动。 
问：你会了解 Bitgo客户的哪些事情？ 
施里克律师：反对。

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法官说：你会调查客户的哪些方面？ 
问：罗伯茨先生，你会调查 Bitgo客户的哪些方面？ 
答：我们会审查他们的业务信息以及与他们业务相关的人员信息。 
问：罗伯茨先生，在你在 Bitgo的工作中，你第一次听说喜马拉雅交易所是哪一年？ 
答：2021 年。 
问：当你第一次听说喜马拉雅交易所时，你的理解是什么？ 
答：我理解喜马拉雅交易所是一家加密货币交易所。 
问：你这种理解的依据是什么？ 
答：这是 Bitgo在为喜马拉雅交易所开户时提供的信息。 
问：是谁向 Bitgo提供了关于喜马拉雅交易所的信息？ 
答：我不记得或不清楚确切的人员，但应该是喜马拉雅交易所的员工。我记得是有人提供的。 
问：您在 Bitgo与喜马拉雅交易所的入驻过程中起到了什么作用？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：我没有参与他们在 Bitgo的开户过程。 
问：当时，您在与该交易所相关的工作中具体负责哪些内容？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：当时喜马拉雅交易所要求 Bitgo支持他们的两种加密货币。 
问：那两种加密货币是什么？ 
答：第一种叫喜币，第二种叫喜美元。 
问：你对喜币的理解是什么？ 
答：我理解喜币是一种价值波动的加密货币。

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问：你对喜美元的理解是什么？ 
答：我理解喜美元是一种稳定币。 
问：当时你对稳定币的理解是什么？ 
答：对我来说，稳定币是一种从其他货币或资产中获得价值的加密货币。 
问：那是如何运作的？ 
答：它的运作方式是你会有基础货币或资产，并将一定数量的这些货币或资产预留出来，然后会
有相应数量的加密货币代币与这些货币或资产相对应。 
法官说：你说的预留是什么意思？ 
证人说：我的意思是，如果我可以用美元稳定币作为例子。如果有 100个美元稳定币加密
货币代币，那么就会有 100 美元被预留出来，为这些加密货币代币提供价值。 
法官说：但以什么方式预留？ 
证人说：这可能有所不同，但我通常理解为你会将其预留在银行账户、银行金库中，或某
个无法访问该价值的地方。 
法官说：你可以继续。 
由检方霍顿律师继续询问： 
问：在 2021 年，喜马拉雅交易所在 Bitgo注册了哪些产品？ 
答：我记得喜马拉雅交易所注册了我们的热钱包服务和托管服务。 
问：与您的托管服务相关的钱包有哪些？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：这些钱包是冷钱包。 
问：罗伯茨先生，有什么区别—— 
翻译员说：您能再说一遍吗，罗伯茨先生？是什么服务。

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证人说：热钱包服务和托管服务。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您提到喜马拉雅交易所施里克律师：反对。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 
答：在 Bitgo，热钱包是非托管的，这意味着钱包的用户拥有最终控制权；而冷钱包通常是托管
的，Bitgo控制那个冷钱包。 
问：冷钱包是否连接到—— 
法官说：稍等一下。你说的钱包持有者指的是谁，是实体吗？你指的是客户吗？你说的持
有者是什么意思？ 
证人说：因此，加密货币钱包是由私钥保护的，而这些私钥只能由钱包持有者知道。 
法官说：但你说的持有者是什么意思？ 
证人说：钱包的持有者是指拥有那些私钥并保护钱包的个人或实体。我认为一个好的例子
是，如果你现在口袋里有一个钱包，里面有 100 美元，你就是钱包的持有者，你在保护它。但如
果你在银行账户里有 100 美元，那是银行在保护它，而不是你自己。 
法官说：请继续。  
问：罗伯茨先生，这些钱包是否连接到互联网？  
答：你能澄清一下你说的是哪种类型的钱包吗？  
问：这些钱包中是否有任何一种连接到互联网？  
答：通常，热钱包根据定义是连接到互联网的。  
问：冷钱包不连接互联网有什么含义？如果有，请具体说明。  
答：通常它们被认为比热钱包更安全，因为如果钱包断开互联网连接，恶意或不法分子就更难以
攻击它。

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问：罗伯茨先生，在 2021 年这个时候，您是否了解喜马拉雅交易所会在他们的 Bitgo 钱包中存
储什么？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：我记得他们当时考虑存储喜币和喜美元。  
问：你从哪里获得这些信息的？  
答：我记得在账户开户过程中，我们收集了关于客户想要做什么的信息，表格中提到了这一点。  
问：你说在 2021 年喜马拉雅交易所签约使用 Bitgo 的服务时，你进行了尽职调查，这个尽职调
查是怎么进行的？  
答：这个尽职调查是针对喜美元和喜币的，是反洗钱尽职调查。  
问：反洗钱尽职调查是什么意思？  
答：这是对某些事物进行审查的过程，以查找与金融犯罪或洗钱相关的警示信号。 
问：你说的警示信号是什么意思？  
答：在我工作的行业中，我们的重点是检测可疑活动和金融犯罪的迹象。警示信号是我们寻找的
东西，用来判断某些活动、某些客户是否有可疑活动或潜在的金融犯罪接触点。  
问：关于喜币和喜美元，罗伯茨先生，您在 2021 年进行了哪些分析？如果有，请具体说明。  
答：我们进行了几项不同的工作。首先是公开来源的研究，包括我们行业中所谓的负面新闻搜索，
看看是否有在公共领域中可能呈现警示信号的信息。我们评估这些加密货币的设计，看看是否有
隐私增强等特征，这些特征可能会呈现警示信号，并试图了解我们的区块链分析供应商是否能够
监控这些加密货币。 
问：你所说的区块链分析是什么意思？ 
答：区块链分析是解释区块链上发生的加密货币交易的过程。对于我的角色来说，这个过程是试
图了解这些交易是否有金融犯罪的警示信号。  
问：那么，2021 年对喜币和喜美元进行区块链分析的结果是什么？如果有，请具体说明。

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答：当时我记得我们的区块链分析供应商无法监控喜币或喜美元。  
问：你从中得出了什么结论？ 如果有的话 
答：我记得得出结论，这两种加密货币处于一种预发布状态，所以我们的供应商可能还没有开始
支持对它们的监控。  
问：预发布状态是什么意思？  
答：我理解的预发布状态是指尚未公开但正在开发中的加密货币。  
问：罗伯茨先生，当你谈论区块链活动时，你指的是什么？  
答：区块链——对不起，你能重复一下问题吗？  
问：当然。你提到在 2021 年你查看了喜币和喜美元的区块链活动，你指的区块链是什么？  
答：区块链是一个分布式账本，它促进了加密货币交易。 
问：什么是分布式账本？  
答：这个概念是指区块链可以存在于各种不同的计算机上，例如分布在不同地理位置的计算机，
并且可以被不同的人访问。因此，当在区块链上处理交易时，许多不同的参与方可以验证这些交
易，没有单一实体或群体能够控制这一过程。 
问：在你对喜币和喜美元的分析中，你是否查看了区块链？  
答：我记得在那次审查期间考虑过喜币和喜美元的区块链活动。  
问：你发现了什么吗？  
答：是的。我的结论是这些币种处于预发布状态，因此当时不会有区块链活动。  
问：一般来说，在你在 Bitgo的工作中，你如何查看区块链？你是怎么做的？

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答：我们有几种方法。我们有区块链分析供应商提供的工具帮助我们解释区块链。我们有内部的
区块链交易数据库，我们还可以访问公共网站，通常称为区块浏览器，这些网站允许公众搜索区
块链上的活动。  
问：当你谈论区块链时，这是一个公众可以访问的东西吗？  
答：通常，区块链上的活动，例如交易，通常是公开可访问的。  
问：谁控制区块链？  
答：这取决于具体的区块链。但通常区块链不受任何个人或团体控制。  
问：你在查看喜币和喜美元时，是否看了特定的区块链？  
答：是的。  
问：是哪一个？  
答：我记得查看了以太坊区块链，因为我理解这两个数字资产将在该区块链上具有互操作性或基
础。  
问：你说的以太坊区块链是公开可访问的吗？  
答：是的。  
法官说：你说的是互操作性吗？  
证人说：不是。  
法官说：你说了什么？  
证人说：可以让我回顾一下我说的话吗？ 
（记录被宣读）  
证人说：我想我试图说互操作性。以太坊区块链被称为第一层区块链，你可以在其上构
建一些东西，例如加密货币。

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问：罗伯茨先生，谁控制以太坊区块链？  
舒里克律师说：反对，已问及已答。  
法官说：你可以回答。  
答：我不知道有任何单一团体或实体控制以太坊区块链，所以没有人控制。  
问：那是如何运作的？它们是中心化还是去中心化的？  
舒里克律师说：反对。  
法官说：你可以回答。  
答：我理解以太坊区块链是去中心化的。  
问：去中心化是什么意思？  
答：没有任何个人、团体或一群人控制在该区块链上可以进行的交易。  
问：这对于在以太坊区块链上的加密货币也适用吗？  
舒里克律师说：反对。  
法官说：如果你知道，可以回答。  
答：我认为这取决于具体的加密货币。  
问：在 2021 年你对喜马拉雅交易所的预发布审查中，有发现任何警示信号吗？  
舒里克律师说：反对，已问及已答。  
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。  
答：我不记得在 2021 年完成审查时发现任何警示信号。  
问：在你完成审查后，喜马拉雅交易所和 Bitgo发生了什么？

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答：喜马拉雅交易所被接纳为 Bitgo 的客户，喜美元和喜币这两种加密货币被批准支持我们的钱
包。  
问：罗伯茨先生，在 2021 年接纳之后，你是否进行过对喜马拉雅交易所的账户审查？  
答：是的。 
问：你进行的那次账户审查是哪一年？  
答：始于 2022 年。  
问：在什么情况下 Bitgo会对客户进行账户审查？  
答：情况有很多。具体到我的团队，当我们收到检测场景的警报或通知时，我们可能会启动账户
审查。  
问：是什么触发了您在 2022 年进行的账户审查？如果有，请具体说明。  
答：Bitgo 收到了一个传票，该传票提到了喜马拉雅国际清算有限公司以及我认为与该实体有关
的个人和其他实体。  
问：那么，您了解的喜马拉雅国际清算公司是什么？如果有，请具体说明。 
答：我理解它是一个实体。我记得它是在英属维尔京群岛注册的，是喜马拉雅交易所背后的运营
实体。  
问：这个传票要求 Bitgo进行账户审查吗？  
答：没有。  
问：当您开始账户审查时，是否从美国政府那里得到了任何指示？如果有，请具体说明。  
答：我不记得收到任何来自美国政府的指示。  
问：这次 2022 年的账户审查与前一年的审查有什么不同吗？  
答：有。

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问：有什么不同？  
答：它的起因不同，审查的目的不同，我们调查的各方和实体也不同。  
问：你在 2022 年对喜马拉雅交易所的账户审查的第一步是什么？  
答：第一步是尝试了解传票中列出的名称和实体，所以第一步通常是进行开源审查，在 Google
等公共数据库上查找信息。  
问：在这次审查中，喜马拉雅交易所的哪些材料是你要审查的一部分？  
答：这样的账户审查会包括对 Bitgo所收集的关于喜马拉雅交易所的账户信息的审查。  
问：当时喜马拉雅交易所有网站吗？  
答：有，我记得他们有一个网站。  
问：审查网站是你审查的一部分吗？  
答：是的。  
问：你是否参考了该网站上的任何材料？如果有，请具体说明。  
答：我记得查阅了关于喜美元和喜币的白皮书，并浏览了他们网站上的几个网页。  
问：你说你查阅了喜币和喜美元的白皮书，什么是白皮书？  
答：在区块链行业中，想要开发新区块链或加密货币的人通常会选择发布白皮书，概述加密货币
或区块链的目的、运作方式及其他各种信息。  
问：在 2022 年账户审查的第一阶段，罗伯茨先生，你了解了喜币的价格吗？  
答：我记得了解到喜币有一个价格，这引起了我们的兴趣，并进一步进行了审查。  
问：当你进一步审查喜币的价格时，你发现了什么？  
答：我记得发现喜币似乎有一个非常大的表面市值，基于我了解到的流通中的喜币数量，以及我
在喜马拉雅交易所网站上审查的喜币价格。

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问：罗伯茨先生，当你说喜币有很大的市值时，你能向陪审团解释这是什么意思吗？  
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。我们能简单边栏讨论一下吗？  
法官说：可以。  
  
（边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场）  
舒里克律师说：法官，谢谢。我只是想提醒一下，因为我预见到接下来的提问可能会涉及
到这个领域，这位证人可能会被问及他是否发现市场上流通的大量喜币相对于其市值是否让他觉
得奇怪、不寻常或不正常。我可能错了，霍顿先生可以澄清。如果问题深入到这个程度，我认为
这将超出我们昨天理解的法官大人关于专家证人证词的裁决范围。 
法官说：我预计他会作证说他们因为某些因素决定终止关系。如果这是其中一个因素，那
么他对此作证是合适的。  
舒里克律师说：明白了，法官大人。我认为我们只是想弄清楚关于这些问题，这位证人的
意见和事实观察之间的界限在哪里，这也是我们昨天理解法庭划定的界限。 
法官说：到目前为止，他只谈到了市值。  
舒里克律师说：我们可以将这个问题重读，但我现在想提出异议，因为在这个问题或下一
个问题中，我预计我们会涉及到这一点。可能没问题，但我觉得我们接近那个区域了。  
法官说：所以我预计他会说他的公司不想与具有这些特征的公司做生意，对吗？  
霍顿律师说：大体上是这样的。他在对市场上的这些产品进行分析。他在吸收信息。正如
法官大人所说，他在作证说应该用这些信息做出什么推荐。所以有些问题是关于他的实时历史分
析。法庭的命令是关于揭示的一般联系和一般话题。我无意接触这些。他说他看到的唯一一件事
是市值，这与他的调查有关。我想问他这意味着什么，这如何与调查相关。  
舒里克律师说：法官大人，最后一点。正如法庭可能还记得的，在政府专家披露中，肖恩
教授花了相当多的时间讨论这个具体问题，即他作为专家认为市值相对于交易量的巨大是某些迹

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象的指标。因此，从这个角度来看，我认为这位证人的预期证词与霍顿律师刚才所说的有很大重
叠。  
法官说：所以专家将就其对重要性的意见作证。他在陈述一个事实，然后决定终止关系。
所以你不会问他市值大的意义是什么？  
霍顿律师说：当然不会问他这个问题。一般来说，我会问他他发现市值是一个相关事实，
他看到了一个相关的市值，这怎么相关。这是从了解事实到做出推荐的桥梁。  
法官说：他必须对为什么他们不赞成这一特征做一些解释，这是合乎逻辑的。你的证人会
说他不同意，这正是专家证人所做的。  
舒里克律师说：谢谢你，法官大人。  
（回到公开法庭上） 
法官说：你可以继续。 
由霍顿律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，在 2022 年账户审查的第一阶段，您对喜币币的价格有什么了解？ 
答：记得我了解到它有价值，并且了解到一些关于喜币的公开信息。 
问：你刚才提到你观察到了喜币的市值，你能向陪审团解释一下什么是市值吗？ 
答：我理解市值是--抱歉，我从头开始解释。 某种资产的总量。市值是一种资产的总量。  
市值是某种资产的总量。 
问：你观察到喜币的总量是多少？ 
答：我记得它的单价在 15 到 20 美元之间，并且它最大供应量大约在 10亿到 15亿个之间。因
此，通过将喜币单价格乘以流通中的喜币数量，喜币的市值似乎达到了数十亿美元的范围。 
问：看到喜币有数十亿美元的市值对你的审查有什么影响？

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答：我记得这促使我们去了解更多关于喜币的信息，例如访问加密货币市场数据网站，看看我们
是否可以验证这些信息或了解更多信息。 
问：在这个过程中，您了解到了喜币的历史价格吗？ 
答： 我记得我们发现了一些关于喜币在 2021 年末左右价格迅速飙升的公开新闻文章。 短短几
周内，它的价格从非常非常低的不到一美元飙升到非常显着的价格，超过 20 美元。 
问：H 币的价格从不到 1 美元涨到 20多美元，这对您评价喜币有什么影响？ 
答：我很想了解为什么会发生这种情况。 
问：那您做了什么来了解为什么会发生这种情况？ 
答：我尝试了解——正如我之前提到的，我尝试在加密货币市场数据网站上寻找更多信息。但在
这些网站上找不到任何有关喜币的信息。所以接下来我尝试去了解他们的交易所如何运作以及其
他相关的事情。 
问：罗伯茨先生，为什么看到喜币的历史价格会促使您采取这些后续措施？ 
答：因为我发现与我对加密货币金融市场的了解相比，喜币价格飙升异常。  
舒里克律师说：法官大人，反对 
法官说：证人是作为公司员工的身份在说话，对吗？ 
证人说：是的。 
法官说：证人可以继续。 
问：罗伯茨先生，为什么看到喜币价格飙升会促使您采取这些额外的调查步骤？ 
答：因为我发现喜币的价格飙升与我对加密货币金融市场的理解相比是一个异常现象。而当我们
发现异常现象时，就会开始评估它是否给我们带出警示信号。 
法官说：你所说的异常是什么意思？

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证人说：我的意思是，将我观察到的或者记忆中的喜币的市场活动与比特币等其他加货币
的市场活动、及我对其他加密货币价格波动的原因进行比较。 
问：当你将喜币与其他币种进行比较时，你看到了什么？当你在审查过程中将喜币与其他货币进
行比较时，你看到了什么？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：证人可以回答。 
答：我的结论是，从总体上看，与我熟悉的知名加密货币相比，喜币价格上涨似乎很显著。 
问：在这次调查中，你进行了区块链分析吗？ 
答：我查看了区块链中有关喜币和喜美元的信息。 
问：当你查看喜币和喜美元的区块链时，你看到了什么？ 
答：我发现喜币是一种创建并发布到以太坊区块链上的加密货币，我还找到了一个钱包，里面存
放着大量流通中的喜币。 
问：谁拥有这个存放着大量流通中的喜币的钱包？ 
答：我记得这个钱包是通过 Bitgo平台生成的，是由喜马拉雅国际清算有限公司持有的热钱包。 
问：你说的大量流通中的喜币，大约有多少存放在喜马拉雅交易所自己的钱包里？ 
答：我记得几乎是 100%。 
问：几乎百分之百的喜币都在喜交所自己的钱包里，这一发现对您的看法有何影响？ 
答：这表明喜币的所有权高度集中。 
问：喜币存放在热钱包中对你的看法有何影响？ 
答：这促使我去查看可能存放在冷钱包中的加密货币资产。 
问：确定资产是存放在冷钱包还是热钱包中的目的是什么？

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答：目的是全面了解他们在 Bitgo平台上的活动。 
问：喜币存放在热钱包而不是冷钱包中，这对您意味着什么？ 
答：因为喜币的市值似乎高达数十亿美元，当时我认为企业会寻求将这些资产存放在冷钱包中。 
问：为什么你当时认为这样的资产会放在冷钱包中而不是热钱包中？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：证人可以回答。 
答：我记得喜币的区块链交易活动并不多。所以如果你有价值数十亿美元的加密货币，我认为最
好将它们存放在冷钱包中，因为冷钱包提供了增强的安全功能。 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：驳回。 
问：罗伯茨先生，你说你一部分审查是将喜币喜美元与其他加密货币进行比较。当你查看区块链
时，这种比较结果如何？ 
答：我发现几乎 100%的喜币和喜美元都存放在同一个钱包中，相对于其他可用的加密货币来
说，这点是异常现象。 
舒里克律师说：同样的反对。 
法官说：驳回。  
问：罗伯茨先生，你所说的异常是什么意思？ 
答：许多加密货币通常具有—— 
法官说：我认为他是让你定义这个词。 
证人说：定义哪个词吗？ 
法官说：“异常”。

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证人说：不正常的发现。 
问：罗伯茨先生，比特币在区块链上交易吗？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：证人可以回答。 
答：比特币可以在区块链上交易。 
问：你在调查账户时，是否发现喜币在区块链上交易？ 
答：我发现与喜币相关的区块链交易活动不多。 
问：喜美元是否在区块链上交易？ 
答：和喜币的情况相似（在区块链上的交易活动不多）。 
问：罗伯茨先生，你刚才证词中提到的喜币喜美元与其他加密货币的比较，对你的看法有何影
响？ 
答：我发现这两种加密货币的区块链活动与我对一般加密货币活动的预期不符。 
问：看到喜币喜美元的区块链活动相对较少，对你的看法有何影响？ 
答：这对我们来说是一个需要进一步调查的警示信号。 
问：看到几乎所有的喜币都存放在喜马拉雅交易所自己的钱包里，对你的看法有何影响？ 
答：我记得这是一个潜在的警示信号，我们想要了解更多。 
问：罗伯茨先生，看到喜币存放在热钱包而不是冷钱包中，对你的看法有何影响？ 
答：我记得这也是一个警示信号，我们想要了解更多并进行调查。 
问：为什么这些都是警示信号？ 
答：因为所有喜币喜美元的活动都不符合一个正常的加密货币交易所的情况。

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舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：驳回反对。你可以继续。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您说您读过喜币和喜美元的白皮书，您从中了解到喜美元是什么？ 
答：我理解喜美元是一种稳定币。 
问：作为 Bitgo金融情报部的负责人，你对稳定币的理解是什么？ 
口译员：法官大人，口译员请求所有各方说话放慢速度。 
法官说：好的。 
答：您能重复一遍问题吗？ 
问：作为 Bitgo情报部的负责人，您对稳定币的理解是什么？ 
答：我的理解是，稳定币的价值来自另一种货币或资产。 
问：原理是什么？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：作为您就职的这家公司的员工，您对此有何理解？ 
答：稳定币的价值来自于另一种货币或资产，而这种货币或资产并不一定是真的，只是另一种货
币或资产（下文中的基础资产，或基础货币）。 
问：那么，稳定币与该不同资产之间有什么联系？ 
答：我的理解是，稳定币的目的是保持对该基础资产或货币的价格稳定。 
问：当你查看喜美元时，你看到铸造了多少单位？ 
答：当我查看喜美元的区块链信息时，我记得大约铸造了 10亿到 15亿喜美元。 
问：您预计这对其储备意味着什么？

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舒里克律师说：反对。法官大人，我们对这一系列问题有持续的反对。 
法官说：有其他问题吗？ 
答：抱歉。你能再重复一遍问题吗？ 
问：你说你观察到铸造了 10亿到 15亿单位的喜美元，首先我想问你，喜美元的单位是什么意
思？ 
答：单个代币。对于加密货币而言，通常有一个最大供应量的概念。在加密货币里不一定是最大
的。 以比特币为例，它的最大供应量是 2,100万个，这是比特币数量的极限了。 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人，反对以比特币为例。 
法官说：所以你是根据你们公司的优先事项和政策作证，对吗？ 
证人说：我作证是因为我今天被叫来这里作证。 
法官说：我的意思是，您是在谈论贵公司分析问题的方法吗？ 
证人说：是的。 
法官说：请继续。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您刚才在调查中您观察到铸造了 10 亿到 15亿单位的喜美元。“铸造”是什么意
思？ 
答：我的理解是，已创建的代币单位数，即加密货币代币的单位数。 
问：当您看到喜马拉雅元有 10 亿到 15 亿单位时，您会寻找什么？ 
答：这让我想要了解相对应的美元被存放或存储在哪里。 
问：在这种情况下，拥有 10亿到 15亿的喜美元，你所说的对应的美元价值是什么意思？ 
答：因此，如果一喜美元等于一美元，我会预期会有相应的——如果流通中的喜美元大约有十亿
到十五亿，我会预期在其他地方会存有等值的美元或美元价值。

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问：你最终发现了什么？ 
答：你是问的 2022 年的初步审查吗？ 
问：我会换个问题。在你对喜马拉雅交易所的账户审查中，你了解到与这 10亿到 15亿单位的
喜美元相关的美元价值吗？ 
答：在查看这些信息后，我在公开领域或账户信息中没有找到关于喜马拉雅如何存储这些价值的
信息。 
问：在这次账户审查中，罗伯茨先生，你了解到喜美元或喜币是否有黄金支撑吗？ 
答：我不记得发现这些加密货币有黄金支撑。 
问：当您审查喜马拉雅交易所的设计和功能时，罗伯茨先生，您是否了解到客户能否从交易所提
取他们的喜币和喜美元？ 
答：我记得在审查他们交易所的机制时有一些问题。 
问：您是否了解到客户能否从交易所提取他们的币？如果有，您了解了什么？ 
答：我记得想了解更多信息，以便理解客户如何以及是否可以从交易所提取代币。 
问：你最终了解到了客户是否可以从交易所提��币吗？ 
答：我记得了解到更多关于交易所机制的信息。我记得喜马拉雅交易所的员工告诉我当时无法提
取喜币。 
问：无法从交易所提取喜币这一发现对您的调查有何影响吗（如果有的话）？ 
答：我发现这与其他加密货币交易所的运作方式不同。 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：驳回反对。你可以继续。 
问：为什么你觉得这不正常？

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答：因为根据我的经验，典型的加密货币交易所允许用户提取他们的资产。 
舒里克律师说：同样的反对。 
法官说：驳回反对。 
问：罗伯茨先生，不能提取代币这一事实对你对交易所的审查有何影响？ 
答：这是我们想要了解更多的事情。 
问：你是否曾直接与喜马拉雅交易所交谈？ 
答：是的。我与我认为是喜马拉雅交易所员工的人进行了交谈。 
问：第一次是在什么时候？ 
答：我记得第一次是在 2023 年初。 
问：2023 年初的电话的目的是什么？ 
答：电话的目的是 Bitgo的合规团队，包括我自己，向喜马拉雅交易所询问我们迄今为止调查中
的发现。 
问：2023 年 1 月你想问他们什么问题？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：你可以回答。 
答：我记得有各种问题，包括关于他们交易所运作机制的问题，关于喜美元稳定币的更多细节，
以及关于他们实际操作地点的其他问题。 
问：在 2023 年 1 月的电话中，你得到了这些问题的充分回答吗？ 
答：Bitgo 收到了这些问题的回复。我记得当时我认为或发现我们需要进一步深入了解我们收到
的一些回复。 
问：顺便问一下，2023 年 1 月的是什么类型的电话？

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答：这是一次通过互联网进行的视频通话。 
问：在这次通话中，交易所关于喜币价格告诉了你什么？ 
答：我记得问了一个关于喜币价格的问题，并得到了这样的回应—— 
舒里克律师说：反对，传闻信息。 
法官说：你可以回答。 
答：我记得得到的回应是价格每天都在波动。 
舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们可以稍作交流吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
（边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 
舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们的理解是这一系列提问涉及到证人与喜马拉雅交易所总法
律顾问之间的对话，包括多次对话。根据法庭对共谋者声明和代理人声明的第二次裁定，政府首
先必须证明总法律顾问是代理人或共谋者。政府没有这样做。因此，这位证人关于 2023 年 1 月
交易所总法律顾问告诉他的话，根据法庭的裁定是不适当的，并且是传闻信息。 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，这些问题和证词的目的是了解这些声明在当时对他的影响。这些
声明是否真实，当然其中大多数是假的。因此，有几个原因说明这些声明不是传闻信息。当一个
证人像这样，他的工作是获取和分析关于其客户的信息，获取这些声明是为了了解其影响，这就
是我试图引出的问题。 
法官说：他是基于从不同来源收集的信息得出最终结论的，其中之一是与某人的对话—— 
霍顿律师说：应该是来自交易所的人。 
法官说：我认为这是合理的。他必须能够解释他们为什么做出这个决定。 
舒里克律师说：他当然可以这样做，而不需要从证人那里引出这个人所说的话。 
霍顿律师说：那是信息的来源。他通过打电话给客户，要求他们回答问题来分析客户。

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舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们维持反对意见。最终，我们理解法庭在五月的裁定是，政
府不能认为这里涉及的每一家公司的每一位员工在整个相关期间都是被告的代理人，因此他们的
话就是被告的话。 
法官说：嗯，他们不一定是被告的话。他说他需要做研究。他进行了询问。根据这些询问
的回答，他们决定终止关系。他要如何解释他们为什么做出这个决定呢？ 
舒里克律师说：我明白了。我不是说他不能。我只是说必须有一些证明，证明这个声明人
是共谋者或代理人。否则，我不明白为什么这些对话可以进入陪审团的视野。 
霍顿律师说：撇开已经提交和将要提交的关于喜马拉雅交易所代理及其与被告关系的证据
不谈，它们不是依据共谋者或代理人例外提交的。它们是作为对听众的影响提交的。 
法官说：这是我的理解。好吧。 
（回到公开法庭上；陪审团在场） 
法官说：我知道我们现在需要休息一下，所以我们会这样做。记住，你们不可以在自己之
间或与任何其他人讨论此案。不要让任何人在你们面前讨论此案。不要阅读、观看或收听与此事
有关的任何内容。我们将在中午继续。 
法庭书记员说：陪审团退场。 
（陪审团不在场） 
法官说：先生，你可以出去了。不要讨论你的证词。 
（证人暂时被准许离开） 
法官说：你们可以坐下了。在我们休息前还有什么事情吗？ 
芬克律师：政府没有。 
舒里克律师说：辩方没有，法官大人。谢谢。 
法官说：好的。

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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
（休庭） 
 
 
 
 
下午会议 
下午 12:00 
（陪审团不在场） 
法官说：口译员告诉我，他们无法跟上非常快的技术性语言，所以请你们都慢下来。 
霍顿律师说：明白，法官大人。 
法官说：请让陪审员入场。 
（陪审团入场） 
法官说：请坐下。 
你可以继续提问。 
霍顿律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 
由霍顿律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，在休息前，你提到你在 2023 年 1 月与喜马拉雅交易所的一些人参加了一个视
频通话。喜马拉雅交易所的谁参加了那次视频通话？ 
答：我记得有一个我知道名叫 Priya Patel的人参加了那次视频通话。 
问：在通话中你能看到 Patel女士吗？ 
答：我不记得能看到 Patel女士。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
问：你看到什么了吗？ 
答：一个黑屏。 
问：在这次视频通话中，你能看到 Patel女士在做什么吗？ 
答：不能。 
问：在 2023 年 1 月与交易所的这次通话中，交易所告诉你什么关于他们的区块链活动的信息？ 
答：我不记得有关于区块链活动的具体回应，除了关于喜美元和喜币的一般讨论。 
问：交易所是否告诉你喜美元和喜币是否有黄金支撑？ 
答：我不记得有关于黄金的回应或任何讨论。 
问：在这次 2023 年 1 月的视频通话中，交易所告诉你什么关于郭文贵的信息？ 
答：我记得 Bitgo问了一个关于郭文贵的问题，我们收到了回应并进行了讨论。 
问：在这个阶段的账户审查中，为什么 Bitgo会对郭文贵有问题？ 
答：我们对郭文贵有疑问，因为通过谷歌搜索，我们在公共领域找到了一些新闻文章和其他信
息，猜测郭文贵与喜马拉雅交易所有联系。 
问：在这次通话中，Patel女士或喜马拉雅交易所的其他人告诉你什么关于雇佣郭文贵的事情？ 
答：我记得听到 Patel女士说喜马拉雅交易所与郭文贵没有财务联系。 
问：那次通话中喜马拉雅交易所与郭文贵没有财务联系的声明对你的审查有什么影响？ 
答：我们记录了这一点，并且它成为我们继续调查分析的一部分。 
问：罗伯茨先生，在这次通话中，你向喜马拉雅交易所询问了什么关于喜美元的信息？ 
答：我记得我们有一些问题并讨论了喜美元的储备和支撑，并且我们请求了一些相关的文件。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请为证人展示标为政府证物 BR208A 的文件。如果可以，
请翻到第二页，然后再回到第一页。 
问：罗伯茨先生，这是什么文件？ 
答：我理解这份文件是一家公司名为 Armanino发布的独立会计师报告。 
问：你以前见过它吗？ 
答：见过。 
问：你在哪里看到的？ 
答：我记得第一次看到是从 Patel女士发送的电子邮件中收到的附件和文件，Bitgo请求了这些
文件。 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，政府提出将政府证物 BR208A 作为证据。 
舒里克律师说：没有异议。 
法官说：采纳证据。 
（政府证物 BR208A 被接纳为证据） 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请展示它。 
由霍顿律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，请注意第一页右上角的 Armanino，你刚才提到过它们。Armanino是什么？ 
答：我理解 Armanino是一家会计和审计公司。 
问：这份文件的标题是什么？ 
答：标题是独立会计师报告。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请翻到第二页。如果可以，请放大文档顶部的“Notes”上方
部分。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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(212) 805-0300 
问：现在请看左上角，罗伯茨先生，这页的左上角写着喜马拉雅国际储备。在你的审查过程中，
你对喜马拉雅国际储备有何理解？ 
答：我不记得对此立即有任何发现。 
问：页面中部顶部写着“喜美元银行和基金持有报告”，日期是 2022 年 7月 31 日。你理解这条
信息代表什么？ 
答：我理解这些信息与喜美元的储备和货币相关。 
问：顶部的行项旁边的数字写着“存放在喜马拉雅银行账户中的美元”，这个行项旁边的数值是多
少，罗伯茨先生？ 
答：401,163,865.60 美元。 
问：罗伯茨先生，喜马拉雅交易所给你的这份 Armanino报告中关于喜美元的黄金储备有什么描
述吗？ 
答：我不记得在这份文件中有关于黄金储备的发现。 
问：下面一行写着“发行的喜美元计价负债”，总计。你理解这一行代表什么？ 
答：我理解这一行指的是给予喜美元其稳定币价值的金额。 
问：这与你在区块链分析中观察到的喜美元数量相比如何？ 
答：我记得发现这个数字与我认为铸造并流通的喜美元加密货币代币的数量不符。 
问：提醒我们一下，你认为铸造并流通的喜美元数量是多少。 
答：我记得大约在 10亿到 15亿单位之间。 
问：那么，这个你观察到的喜美元铸造量与这份报告中反映的数量之间的对比，对你对喜马拉雅
交易所的审查有何影响？ 
答：我记得发现这提出了关于喜美元是否对美元有稳定价值的问题。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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(212) 805-0300 
问：你说这提出了关于这个的问题是什么意思？ 
答：我的意思是，这个特定金额与我认为流通中的喜美元数量不同，因此，如果流通中有 10亿
到 15亿喜美元加密货币代币，当没有等值的美元储备支持该价值时，它们怎么可能每个值 1 美
元。 
问：你刚才描述的问题如何影响你对喜美元的分析？ 
答：我记得做出发现，质疑它是否真的稳定币。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请高亮显示以“以太坊区块链上的抵押喜美元代币”开头的那
一行。 
问：这是什么意思，“以太坊区块链上的抵押喜美元代币”？ 
答：我记得这似乎是指可以在以太坊区块链上查看的喜美元加密货币单位。 
问：旁边的数字是多少？ 
答：那个数字是 0。 
问：下面一行写着“喜马拉雅生态系统平台上的抵押喜美元信用”。罗伯茨先生，你理解这是什么
意思？ 
答：我理解喜美元信用是喜马拉雅交易所用来在其平台上表达喜美元的一种方式。 
问：关于喜马拉雅生态系统平台，你有什么理解吗？ 
答：我记得认为这是指喜马拉雅交易所。 
问：从这份文件中，交易所提供给你的关于喜美元是否在区块链上的信息，你有什么理解？ 
答：抱歉，你能重复一下问题吗？ 
问：是的。你从交易所提供的这份文件中对喜美元是否在区块链上有什么理解？

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答：我回到我最初对可以在区块链上查看的喜美元加密货币的发现，我记得发现区块链上有一种
叫喜美元的加密货币。 
问：报告给你的以太坊区块链上的喜美元代币数量为 0，这对你对喜美元的分析有何影响？ 
答：我记得这是另一个让我质疑在以太坊区块链上可以查看到的喜美元是否符合稳定币定义的信
息。 
问：为什么—— 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
问：罗伯茨先生，为什么在交易所提供的这份文件中看到区块链上的喜美元代币数量为 0，会让
你质疑它是否符合你对稳���币的理解？ 
答：因为我理解流通中的喜美元总量在 10亿到 15亿之间，看到这个数字 0让我质疑区块链上
的喜美元是否有任何价值。 
问：如果交易所报告给你的喜美元代币不在区块链上，你对喜美元代币实际上在哪里有什么理
解？ 
答：我理解我可以在区块链上看到的喜美元代币仍然在区块链上。 
问：喜马拉雅生态系统平台上的喜美元信用，你理解这是什么意思？ 
答：我记得认为这是喜马拉雅交易所在其平台上对喜美元的一种内部引用。 
问：在你的理解中，内部平台与区块链相比如何？ 
答：内部平台可能选择在不向公众开放的私人账本上运行。 
问：私人账本是什么意思？ 
答：我的意思是，维护客户账户余额、客户交易的文档或数据库，仅该平台可以查看。 
问：你对喜马拉雅交易所是否操作一个内部私人账本有什么理解？

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答：我记得认为这些信息和我们了解到的其他关于喜美元的信息表明，他们正在操作某种类型的
私人账本来跟踪交易、客户余额等。 
问：你理解到他们使用私人账本对你对喜马拉雅交易所的分析有何影响？ 
答：我记得认为他们在操作一个加密货币交易所，其活动在私人账本上进行跟踪。 
问：这一事实对你对交易所的看法有何影响？ 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：问题是这一事实对你向公司提出的建议有何影响。 
霍顿律师说：是的，法官大人。 
问：罗伯茨先生，你认为喜马拉雅交易所作为一个内部账本操作，这对你向公司提出的关于与喜
马拉雅交易所关系的建议有何影响？ 
答：我记得这是我们在讨论调查结果时分析和发现的一部分。 
问：你说这是你分析的一部分。它对你的分析有什么帮助？ 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：你可以回答。 
答：我记得它帮助我们理解喜马拉雅交易所的运作方式。 
问：罗伯茨先生，关于内部账本这一事实对你分析交易所有何帮助？它具体是如何相关的？ 
答：对我来说，我理解交易发生在一个私人账本上，而不是公开可见的账本上，因此交易所可能
与其他发现结合在一起，可能在操作一种封闭系统。 
问：封闭系统对于分析目的意味着什么？ 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：反对无效。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
问：罗伯茨先生，你提到封闭系统。这对你的分析有何影响？为什么这一发现对你有意义？ 
答：我记得了解到喜马拉雅交易所的交易流；我记得了解到喜马拉雅交易所的客户不能提取喜币
或喜美元；我还—— 
舒里克律师说：反对，传闻信息。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 
答：我记得了解到喜马拉雅交易所的客户通常通过某种类型的美元转账，如电汇来资助他们的账
户。这些方面让我相信，交易所内的任何喜币或喜美元活动都是他们平台内部的，而没有从交易
所到区块链上其他平台的喜币或喜美元交易。 
问：为什么这些对你的分析重要？ 
答：这些对我的分析很重要，因为我需要了解喜马拉雅的商业模式。 
问：罗伯茨先生，你所提到的关于喜马拉雅交易所是内部操作的观察，对你的分析有什么启示？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，我可以换一种问法。 
法官说：好的。 
问：你刚刚列举的发现，客户无法从交易所提取代币，以及交易所似乎作为内部账本操作，这对
你的分析有什么—— 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
问：——启示？你为什么在报告中包含这些信息？ 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：准备这个报告的目的是什么？ 
证人说：准备这个报告的目的是因为我们在对喜马拉雅交易所进行账户审查。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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法官说：你的账户审查会对什么产生影响？ 
证人说：这会影响我们是否认为我们发现了任何需要向更高级的合规管理层上报的金融犯
罪红色警告旗。 
由霍顿律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，你发现喜马拉雅交易所似乎是内部账本操作，与报告中的金融红色警告旗之间
有什么关系？ 
答：我记得这种理解在我们识别金融犯罪红色警告旗和随后上报的过程中起到了作用。 
问：你说它起到了作用，起到了什么作用？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 
答：我记得发现交易所的运作方式异常。 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 
证人说：抱歉，我可以重新开始吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
答：我发现其运作方式对于加密货币交易所来说是异常的。 
问：关于内部账本，你发现了什么异常？ 
舒里克律师说：持续反对。 
法官说：反对无效。 
答：对我来说，问题不在于它是内部账本，而在于没有相应的区块链活动，但喜币的市值似乎很
高，这引发了关于为什么它有如此大市值的问题。

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(212) 805-0300 
问：你提到喜币的市值似乎很大，引发了什么问题？ 
舒里克律师说：相同反对。 
法官说：反对无效。请继续。 
答：回到我之前提到的，我们计算的在喜马拉雅交易所看到的喜币价格与我们理解的流通中的喜
币数量之间的数学关系，我们有持续的问题，为什么喜币会有如此显著的市值。 
问：罗伯茨先生，你有没有收到关于喜币和喜美元问题的满意答案？ 
答：我记得收到了一些回应，但其中一些对 Bitgo来说不满意。 
法官说：你能解释一下市值的意思吗？ 
证人说：我指的是加密货币的总价值。 
问：罗伯茨先生，把焦点转到 2023 年 3 月，当月发生了什么与你的调查相关的事情？ 
答：我记得了解到一份起诉书，其中提到了郭文贵、喜马拉雅交易所和其他我熟悉的各方。 
问：在你得知那份起诉书后，你是否，何时再次与喜马拉雅交易所联系？ 
答：我记得在那份起诉书发布后的几天到几周内，与喜马拉雅交易所人员进行了进一步的沟通。 
问：谁要求沟通？是 Bitgo请求了这次沟通，还是交易所？ 
答：我记得是喜马拉雅交易所请求了这次会议。 
问：在这次通话中，喜马拉雅交易所的谁参加了？ 
答：我记得有几个人，包括 Priya Patel，一位名叫 Marios Mamzeris的人以及其他一些喜马拉
雅交易所的人。 
问：这是一次视频通话吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：你能看到喜马拉雅交易所的参与者吗？ 
答：我——我记得——我不记得是否能看到任何人。 
问：你说 Marios Mamzeris 参加了这次通话。你认为他在交易所担任什么角色？ 
答：我了解到Mamzeris先生在一个高级公司职位，比如首席运营官。 
问：在这次通话中，交易所人员说了什么关于喜币的事情？ 
舒里克律师说：相同的反对。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。这些陈述不是为了证明其真实性；而是为了展示对听者
的影响。请继续。 
答：我——我不记得在这次通话中有实质性讨论关于喜币。 
问：在这次通话中，交易所人员说了什么关于喜美元的事情？ 
答：我不记得有任何具体的关于喜美元的讨论。 
问：罗伯茨先生，在这次通话中，交易所人员谈到了什么？ 
答：我记得喜马拉雅交易所的人员想向我们告知有一起针对郭文贵和喜马拉雅交易所的起诉。 
问：他们在这次通话中说了什么关于郭文贵的事情？ 
答：我记得有一个解释，大意是郭文贵是无辜的，没什么可隐瞒的，诸如此类。 
问：在这次通话中，喜马拉雅交易所的谁在和你谈论郭文贵？ 
答：我记得通话主要是由 Priya Patel参与的。 
问：你说在一月份的通话中，Patel女士告诉你郭文贵与交易所没有财务联系。她为什么要告诉
你郭文贵是无辜的，你有什么理解吗？ 
答：我记得认为这份起诉书，据我了解，指控郭文贵与喜马拉雅交易所有联系，她想要解决这些
信息。

【中文翻译 仅供参考】       
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 
(212) 805-0300 
问：罗伯茨先生，你在账户审查期间是否与 FBI交谈过？ 
答：是的。 
问：谁主动联系了 FBI？ 
答：是我。 
问：你为什么联系 FBI？ 
答：Bitgo决定联系 FBI，通知他们我们在平台上有一个喜马拉雅交易所的账户，并询问关闭该
账户是否会妨碍他们的调查。 
问：FBI指示你做什么了吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：在今天作证前，你是否与政府的律师见过面？ 
答：是的。 
问：大约多少次？ 
答：大约五次。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请向证人展示标为政府证物 BR212 的文件。如果可以，请
向下滚动到页面底部。然后再滚动回到顶部。谢谢。 
由霍顿律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，这是一封 Bitgo与喜马拉雅交易所人员之间的电子邮件吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你是这封电子邮件的参与者吗？ 
答：不是。

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问：在 2023 年对喜马拉雅交易所进行账户审查时，你是否查看了这封电子邮件的内容？ 
答：我记得查看过这次交流的一些方面。 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，政府提出将政府证物 BR212 作为证据。 
舒里克律师说：没有异议。 
法官说：证据被采纳。 
（政府证物 BR212 被接纳为证据） 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请展示它，并导航到 2023 年 3 月 10 日星期五 12:22 的电
子邮件。稍微超过页面的一半。 
抱歉，就是这里。 
由霍顿律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，这封邮件写着——在 2023 年 3 月 10 日星期五，Marios Mamzeris 写道，“感
谢你的快速回复。请查看以下答案。”提醒我们一下，罗伯茨先生，Marios Mamzeris是谁？ 
答：我了解到Marios Mamzeris是喜马拉雅交易所的首席运营官。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请滚动到下面的电子邮件，并展示第 4个问题的答案内
容。 
问：罗伯茨先生—— 
霍顿律师说：哦，对不起，洛夫特斯女士，请滚动回去，显示发件人和收件人的日期。 
问：罗伯茨先生，谁发的这封邮件？ 
答：这是一个叫 Can Unsal的人发的。 
问：Can Unsal在 Bitgo担任什么角色？ 
答：Can是客户成功经理。

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霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请看这里的第三行文本。 
问：“我在内部收到一些问题，这些问题阻碍了我们的整体进展，需要你们团队的帮助来解决这
些疑问。”你知道这是什么意思吗，“内部问题”？ 
答：我认为这是指 Bitgo人员对喜马拉雅交易所的问题。 
问：下面的电子邮件中有四个问题。罗伯茨先生，你在制定这些问题时起了什么作用？ 
答：我记得我参与了这些问题的撰写。 
问：看看第一个问题，罗伯茨先生，“喜马拉雅声称将其 95%的资金存放在冷存储中。”这个说法
是真的吗？ 
答：根据我掌握的关于喜币和喜美元的信息，我质疑这是否准确。 
问：存放在 Bitgo 钱包中的喜马拉雅交易所代币，有多少在冷存储中？ 
答：喜马拉雅的冷存储账户从未注资过。余额为 0。 
问：看看第二个问题，“为什么只有‘抵押的喜美元信用’被支持和审计？为什么喜美元需要存在，
如果它不能从平台上取出？”为什么 Bitgo会问这个问题？ 
答：在这个时候，喜马拉雅交易所向 Bitgo提交了一个请求，支持一种我知道的叫喜马拉雅欧元
的加密货币。 
问：第二个问题的第二行，“如果喜美元不能从平台上取出，为什么需要存在？”你能向陪审团解
释一下吗？为什么无法将其从平台上取出会促使 Bitgo问为什么需要存在？ 
答：因为我们对喜美元和喜币的性质有疑问，当我们审查第三种加密货币喜马拉雅欧元时，我们
试图进行尽职调查，以评估它是否适合在平台上支持。 
问：罗伯茨先生，喜美元不能从平台上取出的事实，与为什么喜美元需要存在之间有什么联系？

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答：因为提到了抵押的喜美元信用。我认为这可能存在于一个私人账本��，可以在喜马拉雅交易
所控制并掌握的东西上进行跟踪。我记得当时的发现是，如果这些抵押的喜美元信用存在，那么
喜美元的目的是什么，如果你已经有了这些信用系统。 
问：你有没有对喜美元的目的有一个满意的理解？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：他是否得到了令他满意的解释；这是你的问题吗？ 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，我可以换一个问题。 
问：你刚才提到的问题，喜美元是否有目的，对你的最终建议有何影响？ 
答：我记得它是相关的。 
问：在你做出最终建议时，你对喜美元的目的有什么理解？ 
答：我记得对喜美元的目的和存在保持持续的担忧。 
问：看看喜马拉雅交易所对问题 2 的回答的第一句话，上面写着：“我们很快会为我们的代币推
出加密功能。”你对这个答案有何理解？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
答：我记得我们在 2023 年 1 月的第一次视频通话中与 Priya Patel讨论了他们平台的机制，他
们的客户无法为加密货币交易注资账户或从他们的平台提取加密货币。我认为这句话暗示他们正
在开发这种功能，但当时并不存在。 
问：你认为到 2023 年 3 月，喜马拉雅交易所还没有加密功能，这对你的最终建议有何影响？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：反对无效。 
问：罗伯茨先生，问题是：你认为到 2023 年 3 月喜马拉雅交易所还没有加密功能，这对你的最
终建议有何影响？

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答：我记得这成为我们发现的一个部分，认为他们的交易所似乎是一个封闭系统，操作在一种私
人账本上。 
舒里克律师说：反对关于发现的部分。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 
答：抱歉。你能再问一次吗？ 
问：好的。罗伯茨先生，问题是：你认为到 2023 年 3 月喜马拉雅交易所还没有加密功能，这对
你的最终建议有何影响？ 
答：由于我对私人账本/封闭系统的理解，这成为我们在完成账户审查时发现的持续红警示旗之
一。 
问：罗伯茨先生，现在简要看看问题 4，上面写着：“如果只有喜美元信用可以用来购买喜币，
那么是什么导致了喜币的数十亿美元市值？”部分答案是，“我们在全球有成千上万的支持者，因
此喜币取得了成功。” 
舒里克律师说：有问题吗？ 
法官说：问题马上就来。 
问：问题是：“我们在全球有成千上万的支持者，因此喜币取得了成功。”你对这个答案对 Bitgo
提问的喜币数十亿美元市值的原因有何理解？ 
答：我记得认为这句话与那个问题并不特别相关。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，你可以把这个拿下。 
问：罗伯茨先生，在你完成对喜马拉雅交易所的审查后，你最终做出了什么建议？ 
答：我记得建议将喜马拉雅交易所的账户和与 Bitgo的关系升级并考虑终止。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所最终被 Bitgo 终止了吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：罗伯茨先生，你建议终止与喜马拉雅交易所关系的原因是一个还是多个？ 
答：对我来说，主要原因是我们发现了金融犯罪警示信号警告，并且没有收到或识别出足以缓解
这些金融犯罪警示信号警告的令人满意的信息。 
霍顿律师说：法官大人，我可以稍作准备吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
霍顿律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 
问：罗伯茨先生，根据你对交易所的审查，喜币或喜美元是否在喜马拉雅交易所以外的任何地方
可用？ 
答：我记得在进行研究后，没有找到另一个提供喜币或喜美元交易的加密货币交易所或平台。 
霍顿律师说：没有更多的问题，法官大人。 
法官说：交叉询问？ 
舒里克律师说：谢谢。 
交叉询问 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行提问 
问：下午好，罗伯茨先生。 
答：下午好。 
问：我想回到你早些时候的证词。我记得你在直接询问中谈到你今天的准备情况。你记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：在为今天的作证做准备的过程中，你是否审查了政府提供给你的文件？ 
答：政府没有提供给我任何文件。

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问：好的。你是否审查了你雇主为你整理的文件？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。请描述一下这些文件是如何保存的？Bitgo是否有用于归档材料的系统？ 
答：有。 
问：好的。你能简单描述一下吗？ 
答：我们使用行业标准的数据库和文件存储系统。 
问：好的。你们使用 Salesforce吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：用于记录客户通信或保存客户通信？ 
答：这是记录和保存客户通信的一种方式。 
问：好的。还有 G Suite吗，这是另一种方式吗？ 
答：你能再解释一下吗？ 
问：当然。Bitgo是否使用G Suite 来保存文件和记录，这些记录你最终审查过以准备你的证
词？ 
答：G Suite是指Google吗？ 
问：我认为是的。是的。 
答：Bitgo使用Google提供的系统和软件来维护记录。 
问：好的。好的。现在我想问你一些一般性的问题，如果可以的话。 
问：你在直接询问中谈到了一些在区块链上发生的交易，对吗？ 
答：我——我谈到了区块链交易。

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问：对。还有一些可以在区块链外发生的交易，对吗，你也谈到了？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。在区块链上发生的交易被称为链上交易，对吗？ 
答：我理解是这样的。 
问：好的。这些交易在区块链上是公开可见的。 
答：是的。 
问：好的。当涉及到链下交易时，这些交易是不可公开可见的，对吗？ 
答：这是我的理解。 
问：好的。在 Bitgo的工作和业务中，它只处理链上交易，对吗？ 
答：Bitgo有一些产品和服务可能与链下交易接口。 
问：好的。在这里，对于喜马拉雅交易所，Bitgo只提供链上交易服务，对吗？ 
答：是的。喜马拉雅使用的钱包服务仅涉及链上交易。 
问：好的。在加密货币交易所中，根据你的经验，是否可能有链下交易？ 
答：我理解加密货币交易所可能有链下交易。 
问：好的。你熟悉加密货币交易所 Coinbase吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。你认为 Coinbase是一个中心化交易所吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：根据你在 Bitgo的经验，中心化交易所是否进行链下的加密货币交易？

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答：是的，这是我的理解。 
问：好的。因为这些交易发生在一个属于加密货币交易所的钱包内，如果我理解正确——如果我
错了，你告诉我——但是它们发生在一个属于加密货币交易所的钱包内，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：从区块链外部看，是看不到那个钱包内发生的事情的，对吗？ 
答：如果交易是链下的，是的。 
问：对。谢谢你的澄清。我的意思是，链下交易发生在加密货币交易所的钱包内，从外部看不
到，对吗？ 
答：是的，这是我的理解。 
问：好的。事实上，Coinbase作为一个中心化交易所，大部分也是这样操作的，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。 
舒里克律师说：根据他的经验。 
霍顿律师说：反对。他不在 Coinbase工作。没有基础。 
法官说：你们要过来一下吗？ 
（接下页继续） 
（边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 
霍顿律师说：我反对，因为问题涉及 Coinbase。Coinbase是一个独立的操作，与罗伯茨
先生的工作无关。 
法官说：证人被问及的是审判主题，而不是 Coinbase。

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舒里克律师说：我相信证人在直接询问中被问及链上和链下交易，并被广泛询问他在喜马
拉雅交易所钱包中看不到的内容，因此我将此与他在公司中的经验进行对比，以便他作证，作为
对 Coinbase操作方式的比较。 
霍顿律师说：反对的理由是他对 Coinbase的了解没有基础。 
法官说：好的。那么你会问他是否知道 Coinbase的运作方式。 
舒里克律师说：好的。我认为我已经问了一个类似的问题，但我会明确一些，法官大人。
谢谢。 
翻译员说：法官大人，翻译团队请求法官大人通知各方放慢速度，并在可能的情况下暂
停。谢谢。 
法官说：好的，请大家都放慢速度。 
舒里克律师说：明白。谢谢。 
（回到公开法庭上） 
法官说：好的。请慢慢说问题和答案。 
舒里克律师说：明白，法官大人。 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，我之前问你是否对 Coinbase的运作方式有一般了解。 
答：有。 
问：好的。你熟悉 Coinbase，如果我错了你可以纠正我 ，实际上是一个中心化交易所，对吗？ 
答：我理解他们提供中心化交易所服务。 
问：好的。所以当 Coinbase在其中心化交易所进行交易时，该交易发生在一个位于区块链上的
钱包内，对吗？

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答：它——它可能是。我——它可能是。 
问：好的。肯定还有其他交易，可能在区块链上进行，Coinbase 将一些东西从其钱包中发送出
去，明确一点。 
答：是的，这是我的理解。 
问：好的。但是主要来说，当它为客户执行交易时，该交易本身发生在其内部钱包。 
答：假设是通过中心化交易所服务，我不完全清楚他们的每种产品。 
问：但是你知道它确实有中心化交易所服务。 
答：是的。 
问：好的。我的主要问题是，从外部区块链的角度看，不能看到 Coinbase内部钱包发生的交
易，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。问过答过。 
法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 
答：基于这是链下交易，区块链的观察者不会知道该交易发生了。 
问：好的。根据你对喜马拉雅交易所的审查和理解，你同意喜马拉雅交易所是一个中心化操作，
对吗？ 
答：是的，我同意。 
问：好的。因此，从区块链上不一定能看到喜马拉雅交易所内部钱包发生的所有交易。 
霍顿律师说：反对。要求推测。 
法官说：你可以回答。 
答：抱歉。你能再重复一遍吗？ 
舒里克律师说：对不起，麻烦法庭书记员，请重读记录。

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（记录重读） 
答：我会澄清一下，交易不一定发生在钱包内，但交易可能是链下的。 
问：好的。可以理解。它们可能在钱包内，也可能是链下的，但无论如何，这不是你从外部能看
到的。 
答：是的。 
问：对。你需要交易所的记录才能知道钱包内发生的交易，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。显然，鉴于你能获得的信息有限，这不是你能访问的，对吗？ 
答：Bitgo没有内部的喜马拉雅交易记录可供我们查看。 
问：好的。 
法官说：你的问题是，这是你看不到的，对吗？ 
舒里克律师说：我认为这是我的问题，法官大人。 
法官说：好的。 
舒里克律师说：谢谢。 
法官说：我只是想澄清这一点，因为记录中没有包括 "不是"。 
舒里克律师说：谢谢 
法官说：你可以继续。 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行询问： 
问：好的。你在直接询问中提到，Bitgo通过钱包提供几种不同的产品，对吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：好的。它提供你所说的热钱包，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。你能为陪审团描述一下什么是热钱包吗？ 
答：我理解热钱包是一个连接到互联网的加密货币钱包。 
问：Bitgo的另一个产品是托管钱包，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。托管钱包和热钱包有什么区别？ 
答：在 Bitgo平台上，我们的热钱包产品是非托管的，所以热钱包的用户保持控制权。 
问：好的。是否可以说 Bitgo的许多客户只使用一种钱包或另一种钱包？ 
答：我——我以前看到过 Bitgo的客户只使用一种或另一种钱包，是的。 
问：好的。所以，对于只使用热钱包服务的客户来说，这并不不寻常。 
答：这可能是典型的。 
问：好的。现在我们来谈谈——再一次，这基于你在 Bitgo的经验——当你在区块链上有一个加
密货币代币时，任何人都可以查���以确认它在区块链上吗？ 
答：对不起。你能再重复一遍吗？ 
问：当然。当你在公共区块链上有一个加密货币代币时，任何人都可以查找以确认它在公共区块
链上吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对，法官大人。这是否在罗伯茨先生审查的范围内？ 
舒里克律师说：法官大人，我认为罗伯茨先生作证时提到他查找了这两个加密货币，以查
看它们是否在区块链上。这是我的意图。 
法官说：你可以回答。

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答：是的。如果——如果加密货币在区块链上，在公共区块链上，我的理解是区块链的观察者应
该能够看到那个加密货币。 
问：对于我们这些对加密世界不太了解的人，你是怎么做这件事的？ 
答：我们可以使用区块浏览器，通过互联网公开访问；在 Bitgo，我们可以使用内部系统或供应
商提供的软件。 
问：你熟悉叫 Etherscan的工具吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：有人可以用 Etherscan 来进行我们刚才讨论的查找吗？ 
答：可以。 
问：使用你刚才描述的工具，你能看到与个人钱包相关的代码吗？ 
答：你可以在 Etherscan上获取有关个人钱包的信息。 
问：你可以对加密货币代币做同样的事情吗？ 
答：可以。 
问：实际上，这是不是 Bitgo在对潜在客户或现有客户进行尽职调查时所做的一部分？ 
答：这可能是我们采取的一个步骤。 
问：实际上，这是否是针对喜币所采取的步骤？ 
答：你是指 2021 年的审查还是 2022 年的审查？ 
问：好的，我们一个一个来看。 
你知道这是否是 2021 年尽职调查的一部分吗？ 
答：我记得进行了一些搜索以了解其状态，我知道它尚未推出或可用。

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问：好的，因为我们有几个加密货币需要讨论，我一个一个来。 
关于喜币，后来有没有进行检查？ 
答：在 Etherscan上吗？ 
问：或者等同的工具上。 
答：是的。我记得参考了区块浏览器并进行了搜索。 
问：大约是什么时候进行的那次审查？ 
答：是在 2022 年秋季启动的。 
问：所以在 2022 年秋季，当你在区块链上查找喜币时，你找到了吗？ 
答：我记得找到了我需要的信息。 
问：当你说你找到了需要的信息时，你找到了区块链上的代币. 
答：是的。 
问：现在我们对喜美元进行同样的一组问题。 
在 2021 年，你是否使用任何你描述的工具查找了喜美元在区块链上的信息？ 
答：是的，我记得对喜美元进行了与喜币类似的审查。 
问：你发现了什么？ 
答：我也发现它似乎处于预发布或尚未激活的状态。 
问：好的，谢谢。 
对于 2022 年秋季，你是否进行了同样的审查？ 
答：是的。

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问：你发现了什么？ 
答：当我在 Etherscan或其等同工具上查找时，我找到了有关该加密货币代币的信息。 
问：它存在于区块链上，是吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：你第一次进行有关喜马拉雅交易所的尽职调查是什么时候？对不起，撤回。 
我相信你在直接询问中作证时说，你第一次进行有关喜马拉雅交易所的尽职调查是在 2021 年 4
月左右，对吗？ 
答：尽职调查是针对喜美元和喜币的。然而，我记得因为它们的联系也考虑到了喜马拉雅交易
所。 
问：这是 Bitgo的一个入职过程的一部分，可以这么说吗？ 
答：这次审查是特定于将喜美元和喜币纳入 Bitgo 钱包服务的请求。 
问：除了纳入喜美元和喜币，撤回。 
当你说纳入喜美元和喜币时，你的意思是 Bitgo将为喜美元和喜币提供钱包服务，对吗？我的理
解正确吗？ 
答：是的。Bitgo 钱包能够接收、持有和发送这些加密货币。 
问：你能简要描述一下作为该入职过程的一部分所进行的尽职调查的步骤吗？ 
答：你是指特定于我的审查还是更广泛的尽职调查过程？ 
问：我们先谈谈更广泛的尽职调查过程，然后我可能会具体问你关于你的审查。 
答：好的。更广泛的尽职调查过程是——我的理解是，它旨在了解加密货币的背景、构成和目
的。 
问：那么，关于你的审查，你能否也解释一下这个过程？

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答：好的。我的审查专门针对反洗钱尽职调查。我理解这个过程是指研究加密货币以查看是否有
任何金融犯罪的红警告旗。 
问：好的。作为金融犯罪红警告旗分析的一部分，就你的了解，Bitgo的某个人是否分析了喜币
和喜美元的代码？ 
答：我不记得在反洗钱尽职调查审查中进行了代码分析。 
问：你知道 Bitgo的其他部分或其他人在 Bitgo做过这种分析吗？ 
答：我不具体记得是否进行过。 
问：好的。现在我是否可以假设在 2021 年 4 月的入驻过程中，喜马拉雅交易所向 Bitgo提供了
各种信息以供评估？ 
答：你是指在 Bitgo平台上为喜马拉雅交易所开设账户的考虑吗？ 
问：是的。公平地说，你区分了代币和交易所，我忽略了这一点。我的问题是：在纳入这些代币
时，交易所代表是否向 Bitgo提供了评估信息？ 
答：我记得提到了白皮书，喜美元和喜币的白皮书，所以是的，我记得他们提交了信息。 
问：好的。对不起，我不是故意打断你的。 
好的。那么你和你的团队是否有机会接触这些材料？ 
答：我记得我以某种方式接触到了这些材料，无论是访问喜马拉雅网站还是通过内部系统。 
问：好的。但无论如何，你记得可以接触到这些材料，包括白皮书。 
答：是的。 
问：好的。让我简要地给你展示一下。 
舒里克律师说：如果可以，请展示政府证物 BR190，仅供当事人和证人查看。 
问：你能在屏幕上看到吗？

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答：能。 
问：好的。你认得这份文件吗？ 
答：认得。 
问：你认得这是 2021 年 4 月版本 1.0 的喜美元白皮书吗？ 
答：是的。 
舒里克律师说：好的。辩方请求将政府证物 BR190 作为证据。 
霍顿律师说：反对，传闻信息。 
法官说：请上前。 
（边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 
法官说：这是喜马拉雅交易所准备的文件吗？ 
舒里克律师说：是的。 
法官说：那它如何被接纳？ 
舒里克律师说：这是他当时在 Bitgo工作的材料之一，他依赖于这些材料，我们将带他通
读这些内容，问他是否在当时看到了某些内容以及他是否记得那些内容。 
法官说：你要用它来证明什么？ 
舒里克律师说：不是用来证明其真实性。 
霍顿律师说：我们不同意，法官大人。我们认为—— 
卡马拉朱律师：对不起，我听不见你。 
霍顿律师说：我们不同意。我们认为通过这些喜马拉雅交易所的庭外声明向陪审团展示这
些内容的目的是要暗示它是真的。

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卡马拉朱律师：这不是目的，此外，政府刚刚在直接询问中做了同样的事情，他们引入了
Armanino的审计报告，理由是这是证人依赖的文件。因此，这是喜马拉雅交易所的宣传材料。
我们不是为了证明其真实性，而只是为了说明这是喜马拉雅交易所对其产品的说法，这是案件的
核心问题之一。所以我不知道—— 
法官说：他们有权进行辩护。我会让它入内。 
芬克律师：法官大人，如果我们可以，如果法官大人允许它入内，政府请求一个限制性指
示，指示陪审团这些文件不是为了证明这些陈述的真实性，而是为了对听者的影响。 
施洛夫律师：那么限制性指示应该包括政府在直接询问中引入的前一份文件。 
法官说：你们没有请求限制性指示。 
施洛夫律师：我们没有，法官大人。 
法官说：那么—— 
芬克律师：如果你想说 Armanino文件是假的，那也可以。 
（接下页继续） 
（回到公开法庭上） 
舒里克律师说：我们提出这份文件。 
法官说：陪审团成员们，这份文件不是为了证明其中陈述的真实性，仅仅是为了展示对证
人的影响。 
法官说：文件接纳为证据。 
（政府证物 BR190接纳为证据） 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行询问： 
问：好的，正如我们之前讨论的，你认得这是 2021 年 4 月的喜美元白皮书，对吗？

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答：是的。 
舒里克律师说：好的，如果可以，请滚动到第 10页。 
我道歉，是 pdf的第 9页，文件的第 7页，希望这有帮助。 
问：好的，现在你看到页面中间开始的段落，“如果喜美元信用市场”了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：好的，你看到上面写着，“如果喜美元信用市场出现显著的流动性短缺，发行人将有能力使
用储备中的资金提供流动性支持”？ 
答：看到了。 
舒里克律师说：好的，麻烦请我们现在转到下一页。 
请突出显示第一个箭头，标记为 01 的部分。 
问：在问你这个之前，罗伯茨先生，我相信你之前作证时说到，在 2021 年 4 月，你的理解是交
易所和代币处于预发布阶段，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：那么就是说，它们还没有开始运营，还在建设中。 
答：是的。 
问：好的，如果我们看这里的第 1 点，上面写着，“喜马拉雅交易所预发布及喜美元的发布。私
人配售参与者可以申请开设喜马拉雅交易所账户并完成 KYC程序。开设账户后，私人配售参与
者可以以 1:1 的比例使用美元购买喜美元信用以充值账户”，对吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：你记得在你最初评估代币时，交易所通知 Bitgo，喜美元是基于信用系统的吗？ 
答：我不记得有这样的通知。

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问：看这个文件能否刷新你的记忆，喜马拉雅交易所当时做了这个披露？ 
答：看这个文件——我大致认得文件的内容。 
问：这是否刷新了你的记忆，即当时这是披露给 Bitgo的信息？ 
答：我——我不记得有个人向 Bitgo 披露过。 
问：好吧，披露可以有很多种方式，对吗？披露可以通过文件进行，对吗？ 
答：可以。 
问：你之前作证说这个文件是 Bitgo在 2021 年 4 月审查代币时审查的文件之一，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：那么可以说，2021 年 4 月，Bitgo已被披露喜美元的信用系统，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
舒里克律师说：好的，麻烦请我们可以回到前一页。 
倒数第三段以“此外”开头。如果可以，请放大。 
问：好的，文件上写着，“除了交易解决方案的好处外，喜美元信用还设计用于通过喜马拉雅支
付应用程序使用。喜马拉雅支付应用程序将在第 3阶段推出，允许成员使用喜美元信用在接受
通过喜马拉雅支付购买商品或服务的商户处进行国内和跨境支付。成员还可以将喜美元信用从他
们的喜马拉雅支付账户转移到其他成员的喜马拉雅支付账户。”我读对了吗？ 
答：对的。 
问：这个——好吧，撤回。 
问：你记得在 2021 年 4 月，喜马拉雅交易所向 Bitgo 披露喜美元信用是整体计划的一部分，包
括一个支付应用程序吗？ 
答：我记得看到过喜马拉雅支付应用程序的提及。

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问：你对喜马拉雅支付应用程序的理解是什么？ 
答：我记得喜马拉雅正在考虑一款关于支付的更好的产品。 
问：支付，在你的理解中，意味着喜美元信用或喜美元将在喜马拉雅平台上移动，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：它写的是“在喜马拉雅生态系统内”，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：对的。再次回到我们之前的讨论，这将是 Bitgo从外部看不到的东西，对吗？ 
答：是的，我会认为这是一个链下移动。 
问：好的，然后最后一句写着，“成员还可以”，你看到了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：好的，你理解这意味着用户可以在他们之间转移喜美元信用，分离而不使用支付系统，对
吗？ 
答：我理解这是指喜美元信用可以从一个喜马拉雅支付账户转移到另一个账户。 
问：在一个单一钱包内，从一个用户到另一个用户，对吗？ 
答：是的，在喜马拉雅的平台或生态系统内。 
问：根据你的理解，这都存放在一个钱包内。 
答���我不确定是否一定存放在一个钱包内，但在一个链下系统中。 
问：好的，这点公平。在一个链下系统中，不会从外部看到，无论是在那个钱包内还是其他钱包
内。 
答：是的。

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问：好的。 
舒里克律师说：好的，可以请翻到文件的第 11页，pdf的第 13页。我们只需要突出显示
“喜美元信用的交换”。 
问：好的，这里写着，“喜美元信用的交换。成员可以向喜马拉雅交易所请求将喜美元信用兑换
成等值的美元。如果喜马拉雅交易所接受此请求，将接受喜美元信用的转账，并从储备中支付等
值的美元到成员的银行账户。 
发行人没有义务提供流动性支持，喜马拉雅交易所没有义务同意任何成员将喜美元信用兑换成美
元的请求，这种行为完全由发行人和喜马拉雅交易所自行决定。成员没有对发行人或储备的直接
或间接索赔权。” 
你理解第二段的意思是交易所披露它没有保证在赎回时能够提供美元，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对，法官大人。 
舒里克律师说：问的是他的理解。 
霍顿律师说：这属于证词。 
法官说：你需要分解这个问题。 
舒里克律师说：好的。 
问：我们先从第一段开始。 
在第一段中，你理解交易所披露它将用储备中的美元兑换喜美元信用吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：在第二段中，你理解交易所说没有保证它能够在请求时兑换美元，这完全取决于他们的决定
吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的，谢谢。

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舒里克律师说：我们能否回到前一页，pdf的第 10页，文件的第 8页。 
对不起，就是我们之前看的那一页。我可能记错了页码，但就是我们之前看的那一页，有
箭头，标题为“推出”。我认为是——就是这页。谢谢。 
可以放大箭头的部分吗？谢谢。 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行询问： 
问：你看到这里有一个流程图，展示了喜马拉雅交易所及其拟提供服务的各个阶段吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的，我们之前读过第一个箭头，关于喜美元的预发布和发布，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的，这只是第 1阶段，对吗？ 
答：这是我的理解。 
问：好的，然后第 2阶段是喜币的发布，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：就是我们提到的喜币，对吗？ 
答：是的，这是我的理解。 
问：好的，然后第 3阶段是喜马拉雅支付应用程序的发布，你看到了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：还有所谓的“完整的喜马拉雅交易所”？ 
答：是的。 
问：在下面写着，“成员可以通过他们的账户开始交易喜美元、喜币和其他加密资产信用”？

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答：是的，我看到了。 
问：最后，第四个箭头写着喜马拉雅交易所应用程序的发布。你看到了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：那么，这是否可以说这是喜马拉雅交易所计划分阶段推出各种服务的说明？ 
霍顿律师说：反对，与本案无关。 
问：这是整个时间的计划的吗？ 
法官说：你问他是否理解文件的内容吗？ 
舒里克律师说：这是他对文件内容的理解，这个解释了喜马拉雅交易所在整个时间的不同
阶段推出的服务，对吗？ 
法官说：文件内容说明了一切。 
舒里克律师说：我只是想了解证人的理解，法官大人。 
法官说：如果问题是文件说什么，那是一回事。你问他是否理解文件的内容吗？ 
舒里克律师说：我问的是他对文件内容的理解， 在这里披露了什么。 
法官说：好的，我不明白这个问题。 
舒里克律师说：好的。 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行询问： 
问：根据我们刚才看的材料，你理解喜马拉雅交易所将分阶段推出不同的服务吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对，法官大人。 
舒里克律师说：没关系，我会继续问下一个问题，法官大人。 
由辩方律师舒里克先生进行提问

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问：好的。你在当时审查的这些文件中没有发现任何红警告旗，对吗？ 
答：是的，我们当时没有发现任何红警告旗。 
问：好的。你早些时候被问及 Bitgo在收到政府的传票后启动的调查，是吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好吧，Bitgo是从本案的检察官那里收到的请求吗？ 
答：我记得传票是从其中一位检察官那里收到的。 
问：在此之前，Bitgo对交易所有任何担忧吗？ 
答：我不记得对交易所有任何担忧。 
问：Bitgo收到过关于交易所的任何投诉吗？ 
答：在收到传票之前，我不记得有任何投诉。 
问：从 2021 年 4 月的进驻到你们收到传票，大约有 18个月的时间，对吗？ 
答：是的，大约是这样。 
问：你在直接询问中被问及政府是否要求 Bitgo进行账户审查，你记得吗？ 
答：我记得被问了那个问题。 
问：你回答是否定的，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：Bitgo是否有政策，如果收到政府的传票就进行账户审查？ 
答：这是一种我们收到传票时通常遵循的程序。 
问：我相信你作证时说，当你开始进行账户审查时，你发现了一些信息，是在 2021 年 4 月进行
初步尽职调查时没有的，对吗？

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答：是的。 
问：其中包括喜币和喜美元的后续白皮书吗？ 
答：我不记得是否有不同的白皮书。 
问：但你找到了当时存在的白皮书，并作为账户审查的一部分进行了审查，对吗？ 
答：是的。我们找到了白皮书材料并进行了审查。 
问：如果有更新的白皮书，你会审查它，对吗？这是你的惯例。 
答：根据我能获得的资料，是的。 
问：我认为你还作证说，你发现有公开可用的信息表明有 15亿喜美元，对吗？ 
答：大概是这个范围。我不记得具体数字。 
问：好的，大约 15亿喜美元。 
答：大约。在那个范围内。 
问：好的。在您进行这次账户审查的时候，有——没有发现任何东西表明喜马拉雅交易所还处于
开发早期阶段，对吗？ 
答：我不记得发现他们仍在开发阶段的结论。 
问：您记得——当时发现存在喜支付（H Pay），比如说？ 
答：我记得查看过他们的网站，但不记得有具体提到喜支付（H Pay）。 
问：好的。您是否有任何理由相信该交易所在 2022 年秋天时不再处于早期开发阶段？ 
答：我——我——我没有。 
问：好的。现在您早些时候作证时提到您认为发现了许多所谓的“警示信号”标志，对吗？ 
答：是的。

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问：好的。其中一个我认为您提到的是喜币价格有显著上涨，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。您说您观察到关于喜币价格上涨的报告。这是从互联网获得的吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：通过 Google搜索之类的？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。根据您在 Bitgo的经验，有时候数字资产的价格会出现泡沫吗？ 
答：您能解释一下“泡沫”这个术语吗？ 
霍顿律师：反对，法官。 
法官说：那“泡沫”是什么意思？ 
舒里克律师说：“泡沫”指的是资产价格急剧上涨，后来在某种程度上回落。 
法官说：您是在问他是否在工作中观察到这种情况？ 
舒里克律师说：是的。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：我记得观察到加密货币价格随着时间的波动。 
问：这是加密货币领域的一个特征，对吗？ 
霍顿律师：反对，法官。这超出了调查范围。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：我的理解是，加密货币的价值通常是波动的。

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问：对。它们可能会波动，对吗？ 
答：它们的价格可能——可能会上下波动，绝对的。 
问：好的。您熟悉“非理性繁荣”这个术语吗？ 
霍顿律师：反对，法官。 
法官说：维持反对。维持反对。现在我们偏离了主题。 
问：好的。您还作证说，您认为观察到的另一个警示信号标志是数字资产的所有权的集
中，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。我们刚才谈到喜马拉雅交易所的集中性质——撤回。 
我们之前谈到了喜马拉雅交易所的集中性质，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。因为它是集中的，您不会期望所有资产都集中在交易所吗？ 
答：我不一定会期望看到近 100%的加密货币都在一个钱包里。 
问：但实际上，您会期望看到高度集中的，对吗？ 
霍顿律师：反对。这个问题已经回答过了。 
法官说：维持反对。 
舒里克律师说：我认为他作证说他不一定会期望看到，所以我的后续问题是为了理解答案
中的“必然”部分。 
霍顿律师：同样的反对。 
法官说：他的回答是“不一定”。

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舒里克律师说：好的。不管集中度如何，对于像喜马拉雅这样的集中交易所，您不会期望
看到大量的链上交易，对吗？ 
答：对不起。您能再说一遍吗。 
问：当然。对于像喜马拉雅这样的集中交易所，您不一定会期望看到大量的链上交易，对吗？ 
答：对于集中交易所，我通常期望看到链上的入站交易和链上的出站交易，这与客户的存款和客
户的提款相对应。 
问：但我们刚刚回顾过，对吧，购买喜美元额度的唯一方法是向交易所存入法币，对吗？我们在
2021 年 4 月的白皮书中看到了这一点。 
霍顿律师：反对。正如问题所指出的，刚刚回顾过。 
法官说：您是在问他文件中是否这样说的吗？这是您的问题吗？ 
舒里克律师说：我认为他回答说他会期望看到入站或出站交易，我是 
指的是我们刚刚回顾过的 2021 年 4 月白皮书，其中指出购买喜美元积分是通过向交易所
存入美元、法定货币来进行的。 
霍顿律师：法官大人，鉴于这个解释，我们重申在边栏讨论中对该目的的反对。 
法官说：在回顾了该声明后，您的问题是什么？ 
舒里克律师说：问题是，他是否记得根据白皮书，资金是如何进入交易所的吗？ 
法官说：所以您是问白皮书是否这样说吗？ 
舒里克律师说：不。我是问这是否解释了缺乏加密货币入站交易的原因，因为白皮书说唯
一获得喜美元额度的方法是存入现金。 
法官说：您可以回答这个问题。 
答：对不起。您能再说一遍吗？刚才有些来回的对话。谢谢。

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霍顿律师：法官大人，在重新提问之前我们可以靠近一下吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
（边栏会议讨论） 
法官说：所以我理解您的意思是，您是否在问他关于入站和出站交易的结论是否与白皮书
一致，对吗？ 
舒里克律师说：大致是这样，法官大人。要点是，在直接质询时，他被展示了各种喜马拉
雅交易所的材料，政府被允许展示这些材料，因为这些材料对听者产生了影响，因为它们对他最
终的结论有影响，我现在展示同样的材料以质疑他的判断。 
法官说：这样可以，但也许您应该这样询问：如果 X，那 Y是否成立？ 
舒里克律师说：好的，我会试试。 
霍顿律师：我们反对这样提问的原因是“喜马拉雅交易所白皮书的内容是否属实”是将其作
为事实陈述，并理所当然地认为这是真的。。那么，既然这是真的，您对此有何反应？这就是我
们在边栏会议中反对的目的。 
舒里克律师说：我们并不是为了证明其真实性。我们提出的理由和你们一样，是为了听者
的影响，并且这影响了他的判断。我问他的是，这是否影响了您的判断，这是否让您有不同的想
法—— 
卡马拉珠律师说：这和说你读了这个文件，你得出了一个结论，这个文件的这一部分是否
削弱了你得出的结论没有什么不同。 
芬克律师说：但这不是所提的问题。 
卡马拉珠律师说：这是法官提的问题—— 
芬克律师说：对不起。 
卡马拉珠律师说：我道歉。

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芬克律师说：所提的问题是，白皮书说了这个，所以你会期望看到 X，这是将白皮书作为
事实陈述来使用。舒里克律师是对的。如果他想问白皮书的陈述对他有什么影响，这是一个公平
的问题。在提出这个问题时，舒里克律师提出的问题，我们要求法官大人给出一个限制性指示，
仅因为白皮书说了这个事实并不代表它是真的，并且它不是为了证明其真实性。需要明确的是，
政府的观点是白皮书是虚假的。这就是我们所争论的问题。 
卡马拉珠律师说：好吧，如果政府认为白皮书是虚假的，他们显然有机会在总结时提出证
据并进行论证。 
芬克律师说：我们仍然允许—— 
卡马拉珠律师说：对不起。我打断了您，我道歉，我也要求同样的事情。 
我的观点是，文件的呈现方式是，这是您回顾的材料，这部分材料削弱了您得出的结论，
对吗？这完全是关于他心中的内容。 
芬克律师说：这不是所提的问题，如果问题依赖于白皮书中的信息，我们请求法官给出一
个限制性指示，我认为这与辩护律师所说的他使用白皮书的方式是一致的，也就是对白皮书陈述
对他的影响以及他对喜美元的分析。 
法官说：我认为他可以问这个陈述是否与他的结论一致。 
舒里克律师说：我很乐意这样提问。 
芬克律师说：我认为这是一个公平的问题，法官大人，我只是请求限制性指示才伴随这个
问题，因为这样陪审团就不会混淆，因为什么是为了证明其真实性而提出的，什么不是，有时对
普通陪审员来说会被误解，所以我们请求限制性指示，以便陪审团能够正确理解法院允许这些信
息的用途。这是政府的观点。 
卡马拉珠律师说：我不认为法院需要在每次提到文件时 
重复相同的限制性指示。 
法官说：我同意。好的。

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舒里克律师说：好的，谢谢。   
由辩方律师舒里克进行询问： 
问：那么罗伯茨先生，回到这个讨论，您记得看过 2021 年 4 月白皮书中描述如何将任何存储的
价值转入喜马拉雅交易所的部分，对吗？   
答：我记得看过关于在交易所资金账户的操作机制的句子。   
问：对。喜美元的资金机制，喜美元的购买。   
答：是的。   
问：好的。根据白皮书，这是通过发送法定货币——或者说美元，使用一个不那么花哨的词汇—
—到交易所，然后交易所再向购买者发行喜美元额度；这样说对吗？   
答：是的，我记得读到过。   
问：好的。那么我的问题是：鉴于此，这是否与看到没有加密货币入站交易的想法不一致？   
霍顿律师说：反对，形式问题。   
法官说：您可以回答。   
答：您是专指这个加密货币交易所还是一般的加密货币交易所？   
问：不，不，只是这个，鉴于它的独特性——   
答：嗯，这是他们描述他们交易所操作机制的方式。   
问：对。所以这是他们的描述，这解释了为什么可能看不到加密货币的入站转移，对吗？   
霍顿律师说：反对，鉴于在边栏讨论中提出的问题，法官大人。   
法官说：您可以问这个说法是否与他对入站和出站交易的结论一致。   
舒里克律师说：那就是下一个问题，法官大人。

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由辩方律师舒里克进行询问： 
问：这种资金方式与您得出的期望看到加密货币入站交易的结论有些不一致吗？   
答：我记得我说过，对于入站和出站，我指的是更一般的加密货币交易所，而不一定是喜马拉雅
交易所。   
问：我同意。您确实说过。我们现在讨论的，仅仅是为了明确，关于喜马拉雅交易所，鉴于它向
您描述的方式，以及它向 Bitgo 披露的方式，这是否在某种程度上与您之前作证时的想法不一
致，即您期望看到喜马拉雅的加密货币入站交易？   
霍顿律师说：反对。这是一个复杂的问题和证词。   
法官说：反对无效。您可以回答。   
答：我——我认为这与我的发现不一致。   
问：这与您的发现不一致？您认为仍然应该看到——特别是对于喜马拉雅交易所，您仍然期望看
到加密货币入站交易，鉴于它的运作方式？   
霍顿律师说：反对。已问及已答。   
法官说：他刚刚回答了这个问题。   
舒里克律师说：好的。   
问：现在您还作证说，您在审查中发现的一个警示信号标志与喜美元的储备有关，对吗？   
答：是的。   
问：我认为您说过，您期望流通中的喜美元代币数量应该与储备匹配，我们称之为在银行里的储
备，如果这是公平的，从您的角度来看。   
答：是的。   
问：好的。那么储备是什么，再次提醒大家？

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答：我对储备的理解是，它是赋予稳定币价值的一笔资金或资产。   
问：好的。您作证说，您认为铸造的喜美元数量大约是 15亿。   
答：大概是这样。我不记得具体的数字。   
问：好的，公平。我认为您在直接质询中也作证说，“铸造”本质上意味着“创建”；这样说对吗？   
答：我同意这个说法，是的。   
问：好的。基于您的经验，是否有可能创建或铸造代币，但将其保留在流通之外？   
霍顿律师说：反对。这是推测。   
舒里克律师说：基于他的经验。   
法官说：我允许这个问题。您可以回答。   
答：我认为有可能铸造代币但将其保留在流通之外。   
问：好的。这意味着铸造的只有一部分可能在生态系统中或区块链上流通，对吗？   
答：这是——这是可能的。   
问：好的。那么回到喜马拉雅交易所的情况，如果铸造了 15亿，但有些被保留在流通之外，那
么您不会期望看到 15亿的全部储备，对吗？  
答：对我来说，当我查看这些信息时，我无法确定哪些在流通，哪些不在流通。   
问：我， 是的，百分之百同意，因为您无法获取有关喜马拉雅交易所内部情况的信息，对吗？   
答：我没有。   
问：对。所以您无法知道是否铸造了 15亿，但有些被保留在流通之外。   
答：我——我没有获得这些内部信息的权限，假如它存在的话。

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问：公平。好的。再次，您看不到这些，因为从外部来看，查看区块链，所有的喜美元看起来都
在一个或一组属于交易所的钱包中，对吗？   
答：是的。   
问：好的。所以基于此，很难知道正确的储备水平是多少或应该是多少，对吗？   
霍顿律师说：反对。   
法官说：基于什么？   
舒里克律师说：基于见证人与我刚刚讨论的内容，问题是，从外部很难知道适当的储备水
平是什么。   
霍顿律师说：同样的反对。   
法官说：适当的储备水平？这是一个专业术语吗？   
舒里克律师说：我相信证人作证说只有——只有流通中的代币需要——需要有 
储备，而因为我们无法从外部知道什么在流通，所以无法知道适当的储备是什么。 
霍顿律师说：反对。这歪曲了他的证词。 
法官说：我不记得证人说过这些。 
舒里克律师说：法官，我们可以在边栏讨论一下吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
（边栏讨论中回顾证词） 
法官说：继续。 
舒里克律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 
由舒里克律师询问：

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问：那么只是简要回顾一下，我相信您早些时候作证时明确表示，储备的数量应该与流通中的代
币数量相匹配，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。所以如果您不知道流通中的代币数量，那么您无法确定正确的储备数量，对吗？ 
答：是的，但我可以参考区块链上的信息来大致了解流通中的数量。 
问：对。但如果我们讨论的是链外持有的代币，那么无法知道正确的储备数额，对吗？ 
答：如果它是链外持有的，那么公众可能完全无法确定这些细节。 
问：对。因为您只是没有这些信息。 
答：是的。 
问：好的。没问题。 
舒里克律师说：现在我们可以请看政府证据 208A 吗？ 
问：您记得在直接质询时与霍顿先生一起审查过这个文件吗？ 
答：记得。 
舒里克律师说：请看第 2页。 
问：好的。您记得霍顿先生问您一些问题—— 
舒里克律师说：是的，谢谢。请放大文件的顶部部分。 
问：好的。我相信您在直接质询时说过，审查这些信息让您相信喜马拉雅内部有一个内部账本系
统，对吗？ 
答：我——根据这些信息，我觉得可能存在一个这样的系统。 
问：对。我们刚才讨论过，当您和我今天早些时候交谈时，这个系统在链外运行，是一个内部账
本系统。

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霍顿律师说：反对。这个问题已问及已答。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：是的。 
问：好的。现在看看——您看到“总计喜美元计价的负债发行”这个标题了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：好的。然后在它下面写着“以太坊区块链上的抵押喜美元代币”？ 
答：是的，我能看到。 
问：这里显示的 0 是您与霍顿先生讨论过的，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。这是否意味着——我的理解是否正确，这意味着以太坊区块链上没有抵押的喜美元代
币？ 
答：我——这是我的一个发现，是的。 
问：好的。然后看看下一行，“喜马拉雅生态系统平台上的抵押喜美元积分。” 
答：是的。 
问：您看到了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：您的理解是，这是指喜马拉雅的链外系统，对吗？ 
答：这是我得到的印象。 
问：好的。它显示喜美元积分大约有 4亿美元的担保；对吗？ 
答：显示大约有 4亿美元，是的。

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问：好的。当我们说到积分时，我们讨论的是链外的代币，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：链外代币的表示，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。那个 4亿美元的数字——现在看看顶部写着“喜马拉雅拥有的银行账户中的美元”。您
看到了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：好的。那个数字是否超过了下面的大约 400万美元？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。这是否表明，对于那些链外的喜美元积分，这些喜美元积分有足够的现金储备支持？ 
答：这确实可以证明可能是这样。 
问：好的。您有任何相反的理由吗？ 
答：目前没有。 
舒里克律师说：法官，我可以稍作停顿吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
舒里克律师说：谢谢，法官。 
问：我认为您早些时候作证说，2023 年有人告诉您，郭先生没有参与平台的财务，对吗？ 
答：我——我记得收到过这样的回应，是的。 
问：好的。您在调查中是否发现了与此不一致的信息？

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答：嗯，我记得在公共领域找到过一些信息，比如 Google搜索，显示郭文贵和喜马拉雅交易所
之间可能有财务联系。 
问：好的。您以前从未与郭文贵先生交谈过，对吗？ 
答：据我所知，没有。 
问：据您所知，郭文贵先生曾经联系过 Bitgo吗？ 
答：我不知道郭文贵是否曾试图联系 Bitgo。 
问：好的。据您所知，所有代表交易所给 Bitgo的指示都是由交易所的代表发出的，可以这样说
吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。公平。现在您说您在 2020 年秋天收到政府的传票，对吗？ 
答：2022 年秋天。 
问：我差了两年。是的，谢谢。2022 年秋天。然后 Bitgo随后结束了与交易所的关系，对吗？ 
答：是的，随后。 
问：您记得大概是什么时候吗？ 
问：大约是 2023 年年中。 
问：好的。6 月 8 日这个日期大概对吗？ 
答：我现在不记得具体日期，但大致是这个时间。 
问：好的。那么几个月之后。 
答：是的。 
问：超过六个月。

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答：是的。 
问：好的。您记得在那段时间内，作为客户审查过程的一部分，您考虑过媒体对喜马拉雅交易所
的报道吗？ 
答：您能稍微澄清一下媒体报道的意思吗？ 
问：当然。我的意思是，作为决定是否结束与交易所关系的一部分，Bitgo考虑了交易所收到的
媒体报道，对吗？ 
答：我们考虑了公共领域的信息，比如识别喜马拉雅交易所的媒体网站。 
问：对。您还考虑到郭先生被逮捕的事情，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。实际上，您告诉交易所的代表，郭先生被逮捕和收到大陪审团传票基本上是与 Bitgo
关系结束的原因，对吗？ 
答：我不记得分享过这些具体信息。 
问：好的。那么，坏媒体报道——撤回。可以说对客户的不利媒体报道——或者说坏新闻，是您
会考虑的因素吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：对。因为这对 Bitgo来说有声誉风险，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：是的。与一个有坏新闻的客户关联，为其提供服务，会有声誉风险，对吗？ 
答：是的，我们——我们会考虑声誉损害的问题。 
问：有时候，如果一个客户有很多负面新闻，继续与他们做生意对 Bitgo来说可能就不值得了，
对吗？

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答：这是评估与客户关系是否超过我们风险承受能力时的一个因素。 
问：对。您记得 Bitgo从喜马拉雅收取的费用大概是多少吗？ 
答：我记得所有服务的费用大概在 1万到 1.5万美元之间。我不记得具体数字。 
问：好的。那么为 1万或 1.5万美元的收入承担与一个有 
坏新闻的人关联的声誉风险不值得，对吗？ 
答：在进行评估时，我们会考虑所有因素。支付的费用当然是一个因素。 
问：当然。但这是一个重要的因素，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。 
法官说：您可以回答是否这是一个重要因素。 
答：这是一个和其他许多因素一样重要的因素。 
问：好的。但这是重要的，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。已问及已答。 
法官说：维持反对。 
问：喜马拉雅——撤回。喜马拉雅不是 Bitgo最大的客户，对吗？ 
答：请定义“最大”。 
问：嗯，这都是相对的，所以您告诉我。他们是相对于其他客户来说 Bitgo的最大客户吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。 
法官说：您可以说是大、中或小。 
答：我不认为喜马拉雅是我们与其他一些客户相比的重要关系。

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问：好的。Bitgo解雇喜马拉雅之后，你们公司还在经营，对吗？ 
答：在我们关闭喜马拉雅的账户后，Bitgo还在经营，是的。 
问：是的。你们公司还运行得很好。 
答：是的。 
问：好的。您早些时候作证说，您在 2023 年的某个时候主动联系了 FBI，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。那时 Bitgo已经与政府有一段时间的联系了，对吗？ 
答：是指政府的哪个部门？ 
问：任何政府部门。 
答：是关于这个账户审查吗？ 
问：嗯，这么说吧：您，Bitgo，在 2022 年秋天收到了政府的传票？这次我会说对。 
答：是的，我们收到了。 
问：好的。那么您有——Bitgo有律师吗？ 
答：是的，我们有。 
问：好的，他们作为回应那份传票与政府的律师进行了沟通？ 
答：嗯，Bitgo有义务回应，所以他们必须进行某种沟通。 
问：当然。我只是确认他们确实进行了沟通。 
答：我——我不一定参与了那次沟通，但我认为类似的事情确实发生了。 
问：好的。所以 Bitgo的律师与政府有联系，所以当您联系 FBI时，您已经与政府联系了一段时
间，对吗？

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答：我们会与传票相关的特工和政府人员进行沟通。 
问：对。所以您不是突然联系的。 
霍顿律师说：反对。 
法官说：他可以说是否是突然联系的。 
答：作为一种标准步骤，在这种情况下联系执法部门是典型的做法。 
问：但这不是——这不是突然的。您知道要联系谁，对吗？ 
答：对不起。您能再说一遍吗？ 
问：您知道要联系谁，对吗？ 
答：是的，我相信我联系的人，他们的联系方式在传票上。 
舒里克律师说：好的。谢谢。目前没有其他问题。 
法官说：重新询问？ 
重新询问 
由检方律师霍顿进行询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，在交叉询问中您被问到了一些关于 Coinbase的问题。您还记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：根据您的审查，喜马拉雅交易所的运作方式像 Coinbase吗？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：反对无效。您可以回答。 
答：我——我记得在我的审查中，喜马拉雅交易所的组成和性质与 Coinbase的档案不一致。

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问：您说的喜马拉雅交易所的组成与 Coinbase的档案不一致是什么意思？ 
答：这方面有很多因素，但对我来说，一个重要的因素是我记得可以用加密货币进行存款并从交
易所提取加密货币。 
问：Coinbase的客户可以用加密货币进行存款吗？ 
舒里克律师说：已问及已答。 
法官说：反对无效。您可以回答。 
答：假设我们在谈论的是他们的那个产品，我——我认为 Coinbase的客户可以用加密货币进行
交易来为他们的账户注资。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所的客户可以用加密货币为他们的账户注资吗？ 
答：根据我的审查，我没有发现信息表明喜马拉雅交易所的客户可以用加密货币进行交易来为他
们的账户注资。 
问：在交叉询问中，您还被问到了一些关于 Coinbase区块链活动的问题。您记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：Coinbase的区块链活动与您观察到的喜马拉雅交易所的区块链活动相比如何？ 
答：我会将其分类为显著不同。 
问：是什么让喜马拉雅交易所的区块链活动与 Coinbase的区块链活动显著不同？ 
答：Coinbase每天有大量客户的加密货币存款和提取；他们提供多种加密货币交易等服务。 
问：您作证说，您观察到的 99%的喜币在喜马拉雅交易所控制的钱包中。您还记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：Coinbase控制 99%的任何加密货币吗？ 
答：我不认为——我——我不知道他们是否——

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舒里克律师说：反对。 
答：抱歉。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：我认为不太可能，但我不完全清楚他们今天支持的每一种加密货币。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您描述了喜马拉雅交易所是一个闭环系统。Coinbase是闭环系统吗？ 
答：Coinbase有链外方面。 
问：您如何比较 Coinbase的链外方面与喜马拉雅交易所的链外方面？ 
答：我会说，如果我们说喜马拉雅交易所的客户拥有喜美元积分并想购买喜币，该交易成功并结
算，我认为这可以与 Coinbase的客户用美元通过电汇为其账户注资，下单购买比特币等交易进
行比较；在这两种情况下，我会描述为链外活动。 
问：相对而言，Coinbase的客户可以将加密货币从交易所取走吗？ 
答：是的，这是我的理解。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所的客户可以这样做吗？ 
答：我没有发现信息表明喜马拉雅的客户可以这样做。 
问：在 Coinbase，客户可以将自己的加密货币钱包带到交易所吗？ 
答：他们可以将自己的加密货币带到交易所。 
问：这样做需要带上他们自己的钱包吗？ 
答：您不需要带自己的钱包。您可以在创建账户后直接用加密货币为账户注资。不一定需要拥有
或带上钱包。 
问：您提到过您向喜马拉雅交易所提出了许多问题，并且他们给了您回答。 
答：是的。

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问：喜马拉雅交易所告诉您关于喜币锁定的情况是什么？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。超出范围。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：我记得向喜马拉雅交易所提出了关于可能的喜币锁定的问题，并记得收到的回复是不存在这
种锁定。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所告诉您关于自由媒体风投的情况是什么？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。范围。 
法官说：维持反对。 
问：罗伯茨先生，在交叉询问中，您被问到关于喜美元储备的多个问题。您记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：您被问到关于稳定币的实际数量可能低于区块链上显示的铸造数量的问题。您记得吗？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：维持反对。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您在交叉询问中被问到是否有可能流通中的稳定币数量低于区块链上报告的铸
造数量。您记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：您作证说，您向喜马拉雅交易所提出了关于喜美元的问题；对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：那么，喜马拉雅交易所有没有告诉您，实际流通中的喜美元数量低于您在区块链上看到的数
量？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。歪曲。

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法官说：您可以回答。 
答：对不起，您能再说一遍吗？ 
问：喜马拉雅交易所有没有告诉您，实际流通中的喜美元数量低于您在区块链上观察到的数量？ 
舒里克律师说：同样的反对。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：我——我不记得喜马拉雅交易所的人员有关于此的回复。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，您能调出作为证据的 BR208A 吗？ 
能看一下第二页吗？ 
问：这里顶部的这一行写着“喜马拉雅拥有的银行账户中的美元”，有一个 4亿美元的数字。您是
2023 年的什么时候从喜马拉雅交易所得到这个文件的？ 
答：大约是在 2023 年 1 月。 
问：交易所告诉您在他们给您这个文件时这些资金仍在他们的银行账户中吗？ 
答：我不记得他们是否有具体的回复说资金仍在，但根据我们提出的问题和收到的文件，我觉得
这是暗示的。 
舒里克律师说：反对这个回答。 
法官说：反对无效。您可以继续。 
问：您的意思是根据从交易所获得的信息，您觉得暗示是什么意思？ 
答：我记得问过关于喜美元如何由美元支持的问题，他们给了我们这些文件，所以如果不再由美
元支持，我会认为他们不会提交这种类型的文件给我们。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您在交叉询问中被问到关于稳定币储备的性质的各种问题。您记得吗？ 
答：记得。

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问：稳定币是否应该与交易所的运营资金混在一起？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：对于加密货币总体来说，我期望客户资金或加密货币客户的加密货币与加密货币交易所的资
产分开。 
问：您在交叉询问中还被问到交易所支付给 Bitgo的费用。您记得吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所每月总共支付给 Bitgo多少费用？ 
答：每月大约是 1万到 1.5万美元。 
问：1万到 1.5万美元中有多少是用于冷钱包的？ 
答：大约是 1万美元。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所使用那些冷钱包了吗？ 
答：我不记得喜马拉雅交易所曾经为那些冷钱包注资。 
霍顿律师说：法官，我可以稍作停顿吗？ 
法官说：可以。 
问：我们正在看的文件底部有一个名字，Jesse Brown，CEO，还有一个签名。您在审查喜马拉
雅交易所时有没有与 Jesse Brown交谈过？ 
答：我不记得曾经与名为 Jesse Brown的人交谈过。 
问：Jesse Brown有没有参加过您与喜马拉雅交易所的电话会议？ 
答：我不记得在我与喜马拉雅交易所的任何电话会议上有一个名为 Jesse Brown的人参加。

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问：在您的审查中，您从 Jesse Brown那里得到了什么信息吗？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。 
法官说：您可以回答。 
答：我不记得收到过名为 Jesse Brown的人的任何文件。 
霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，您可以把这个文件拿下。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您被要求查看了喜马拉雅交易所的白皮书。您知道Minran Wu是否获得了喜
马拉雅交易所的白皮书吗？ 
答：抱歉，您能再说一遍吗？ 
问：您知道Minran Wu是否获得了喜马拉雅交易所的白皮书吗？ 
舒里克律师说：反对，法官。 
法官说：维持反对。 
问：罗伯茨先生，您知道喜马拉雅农场联盟是什么吗？ 
答：我记得在我们的账户审查中遇到过这个术语，但我不具体记得它是什么。 
问：在交���询问中，您还被问到了您收到的大陪审团传票，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：大陪审团传票命令您对此进行审查了吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：大陪审团传票命令您结束与喜马拉雅交易所的关系了吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：政府是否曾指示您结束与喜马拉雅交易所的关系？

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答：没有。 
霍顿律师说：法官，我可以再用一点时间吗？ 
问：罗伯茨先生，在您几个月的审查过程中，您是否了解喜马拉雅农场联盟采取了哪些步骤来分
发喜马拉雅交易所的白皮书？ 
答：我不记得有任何事件或收到相关信息。 
霍顿律师说：没有进一步的问题了。 
法官说：重新交叉询问？ 
舒里克律师说：简短的，法官。能请调出政府证据 BR212 吗？能请您往下滚动吗？好
的，就停在这里，谢谢。 
重新交叉询问，由舒里克律师询问： 
问：罗伯茨先生，您记得今天下午早些时候被霍顿先生询问过关于这份证据的问题吗？ 
答：记得。 
问：好的。他问了您一些问题——撤回。 
为了让大家回顾一下，这封电子邮件是 Bitgo的某人与交易所的某人之间的交流，对吗？ 
答：是的，这是 Bitgo的一名员工与喜马拉雅交易所人员之间的电子邮件。 
问：好的。这是在 2023 年 3 月，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：您的理解是，这封电子邮件交流是喜马拉雅请求将新代币添加到 Bitgo的钱包功能的一部分
吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对，法官。这超出了重定向的范围。 
法官说：我允许这个问题。

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舒里克律师说：谢谢。 
答：我认为这段交流涉及几件事，其中之一是喜马拉雅请求添加一种新的加密货币。 
问：好的。现在我想让您关注这里的第 2 点，很快的。霍顿先生问了您一些关于第 2段的问
题，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：Bitgo向交易所提出的问题是为什么只有抵押的喜美元积分得到支持和审核？为什么喜美元
需要存在如果它不能从平台上提取？而答案——您没有与霍顿先生一起审查这个答案，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。这是歪曲。 
问：答案是—— 
法官说：维持反对。 
问：——“我们即将为我们的代币推出加密货币功能。这也是我们为什么请求您对喜欧元的支持
的部分原因，因为我们计划很快推出喜美元、喜币和喜欧元的加密货币存款和提取。”您看到了
吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：您的理解是，这是交易所的成员或代表告诉 Bitgo他们计划推出加密货币存款和提取功能，
对吗？ 
答：是的，看起来是这样说的。 
问：这些会是链上的加密货币存款和提取，对吗？ 
答：它并没有具体说明是链上，但我认为可以合理地说这可能是他们指的。 
问：对。没有其他方式可以在链下进行加密货币的存款，对吗？ 
答：嗯，你可以在链下进行。

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问：但这样做没有意义，对吗？ 
答：那——那只会在一个私人账本上进行。 
问：对。所以，为确保我们意见一致，这反映了交易所的声明，他们计划有能力从喜马拉雅交易
所进行加密货币存款和提取，对吗？ 
霍顿律师说：反对。已问及已答。 
法官说：维持反对。 
舒里克律师说：好的。我们能看一下第 1 点并放大吗？ 
问：在重新询问中，霍顿先生问了您一些关于喜马拉雅是否使用 Bitgo提供的冷钱包解决方案的
问题，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：我认为您说他们没有，对吗？ 
答：我说他们——我不记得他们曾经为他们的账户注资。 
问：好的，没问题。您不记得他们是否注资了。我们来看一下第 1 点。 
Bitgo的人员向交易所提出的问题是“喜马拉雅声称将 95%的资金保存在冷存储中。为什么您现
在将所有的喜美元、喜币都保存在 Bitgo的热钱包中？您是否在使用其他托管解决方案？还是您
只是等待我们完成冷钱包设置？”答案是，“是后者。”您看到了吗？ 
答：看到了。 
问：他说，“我们正在等待完成我们的冷钱包设置，我们将很快完成冷钱包的创建。”您看到了
吗？ 
问：他说，“我们正在等待完成我们的冷钱包设置，我们将很快完成冷钱包的创建。”您看到了
吗？ 
答：看到了。

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问：所以，您的理解是，这是交易所的代表告诉 Bitgo他们实际上计划很快开始使用冷钱包？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。霍顿先生还问了您一些关于喜马拉雅交易所和 Coinbase 之间比较的问题。您记得
吗？ 
答：抱歉，您能再说一遍吗？ 
问：是的，对不起。我应该放慢速度。霍顿先生刚才问了您一些关于 Coinbase和喜马拉雅交易
所之间比较的问题，对吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：好的。现在有许多不同的加密货币交易所，对吗？ 
答：是的，我——我认为有很多。 
问：好。根据您在 Bitgo的经验和加密货币行业经验，能否说有几十个，上百个？ 
答：上百个，甚至更多。 
问：所有这些交易所的运作方式都一样吗？ 
答：它们可能有各自特有的内部机制。 
问：当然。 
舒里克律师说：没有其他问题了。 
霍顿律师说：法官，我能简单问几个问题吗？ 
法官说：好的。重新询问。 
重新询问 
由检方律师霍顿进行询问：

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问：罗伯茨先生，您作证说喜马拉雅交易所是 Bitgo的客户将近两年；对吗？ 
答：大约是这么长时间，是的。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所在他们是 Bitgo的客户期间每个月都支付冷钱包存储费用，对吗？ 
答：我不记得他们是否每个月都支付，但我相信这是他们签署的协议所规定的。 
问：他们什么时候为他们的冷钱包注资的？ 
舒里克律师说：已问及已答。 
法官说：反对无效。您可以回答。 
答：我不记得喜马拉雅交易所曾经为他们在 Bitgo的冷钱包注资。 
问：在 2023 年 3 月，交易所在您 
刚才在交叉询问中看到的电子邮件中说，“我们即将为我们的代币推出加密货币功能”，您当时对
交易所的加密货币功能有什么理解？ 
答：我记得当时认为他们尚未真正建立支持加密货币交易的基础设施。 
问：是什么因素促使您建议在那一年与喜马拉雅交易所终止关系？ 
舒里克律师说：反对。这个问题已经多次被问及并回答过。 
法官说：反对有效。 
霍顿律师说：没有其他问题了。 
法官说：有重新交叉询问吗？ 
舒里克律师说：没有，法官。 
法官说：好的，您可以离开了。 
（证人退席）

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法官说：政府可以传唤下一个证人。 
芬克律师说：政府传唤詹姆斯 柯林斯。 
法庭书记员说：请举起右手。 
（证人宣誓） 
法官说：请说出您的姓名并拼写，并把麦克风拉近您。 
证人说：詹姆斯 罗伯特 柯林斯, Jr. 
法官说：大声点。 
证人说：詹姆斯 罗伯特 柯林斯, Jr. J-A-M-E-S, R-O-B-E-R-T, C-O-L-L-I-N-S，我用缩写
J-R。 
法官说：请对着麦克风说，并保持很近。 
您可以提问了。 
芬克律师说：谢谢，法官。 
詹姆斯 罗伯特 柯林斯, JR., 
作为政府的证人， 
宣誓后，作如下证： 
直接询问 
由芬克律师询问： 
问：柯林斯先生，请随意调整麦克风，让您感觉舒适，并且请直接对着您的嘴巴，这样每个人都
能听到您的声音。 
答：这样可以吗？

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问：好多了，谢谢。 
柯林斯先生，您有任何昵称吗？ 
答：我出生时父母叫我博，从那时起我就用这个昵称。 
问：好的。请把麦克风直接对着您的嘴巴。稍微转一下。是的，谢谢。 
柯林斯先生，您在哪里工作？ 
答：Mercantile 全球控股。 
问：Mercantile 全球控股是什么？ 
答：它是一家全资拥有 Mercantile国际银行的控股公司。 
问：Mercantile国际银行是什么？ 
答：Mercantile国际银行是一家国际金融实体，被 FinCEN认定为银行，并根据波多黎各颁发的
许可证运营。 
问：您在有利 Mercantile银行担任什么职务？ 
答：我是董事长兼首席执行官。 
问：首席执行官意味着什么？ 
答：最高级的执行官。 
问：您在有利 Mercantile银行工作了多少年？ 
答：大约五年。 
问：Mercantile银行的现状如何？ 
答：遗憾的是，Mercantile银行正在逐步关闭业务。 
问：那是什么时候开始的？

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答：昨天。 
问：在此之前，柯林斯先生，作为首席执行官，有大约多少员工向您汇报工作？ 
答：公司总共有大约 25 名员工。 
问：柯林斯先生，作为首席执行官，您是否了解 Mercantile银行的收入情况？ 
答：是的。 
问：您对如何在市场上推广 Mercantile银行有影响吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：作为首席执行官，您是否与银行的客户进行过沟通？ 
答：是的。 
问：谁拥有 Mercantile银行的最终决策权？ 
答：我。 
问：这是因为您是首席执行官吗？ 
答：因为我是高级执行官。 
问：什么是 IFE？ 
答：IFE 是由波多黎各主权政府授予的许可证。它代表国际金融实体，是一种独特的银行特许经
营。 
问：这与位于美国大陆的非 IFE银行有何不同？ 
答：一般来说，当您申请 IFE 特许经营时，您指定您想使用的功能，并且只有这些功能会被批
准。在正常的银行特许经营下，您可以进行特许经营下所有银行可以做的事情，无论您是否想
要。

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问：柯林斯先生，在您担任有利 Mercantile银行首席执行官期间，银行是否专注于特定的客户
群体？ 
问：当我们刚开始运营时，我们的愿景是成为数字资产行业的结算银行。我们是美国第一家获得
持有和传输数字资产许可证的银行，我们的重点非常狭窄。 
问：是否有一个名为 G-Clubs的实体成为了有利 Mercantile银行的客户？ 
答：是的。 
问：一个名为 G Fashion的实体是否曾成为有利 Mercantile银行的客户？ 
答：是的。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所，这个实体是否曾是有利 Mercantile银行的客户？ 
答：是的。 
问：这些实体现在还是有利 Mercantile银行的客户吗？ 
答：不是。 
问：好的。柯林斯先生，我想先谈谈 G-Clubs。您大约什么时候第一次听说 G-Clubs的？ 
答：大概是在 2021 年春天。 
问：您是如何知道 G-Clubs的？ 
答：我们在为另一家 IFE处理交易，G-Clubs是那家 IFE 的客户，有一段时间他们通过那家 IFE
提交了大量交易让我们处理。 
问：那大约是什么时间段？ 
答：也是在 2021 年春天。 
问：那家 IFE 的名字是什么？ 
答：美第奇银行。

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问：柯林斯先生，您能向陪审团解释一下为什么 Mercantile银行在帮助处理美第奇的交易吗？ 
答：银行之间相互处理交易并不罕见。我们有一个良好的技术架构，拥有自己的技术架构，我们
能够为美第奇提供这项服务。这通常被称为对应银行关系。 
问：对应银行是什么意思？ 
答：对应银行意味着一家银行会为另一家银行提供银行服务，反之亦然。 
问：在 2021 年春天，美第奇与 G Club的关系遇到了什么问题？ 
答：我不太理解您的问题，具体是指什么问题。 
问：在那个时间段，Mercantile为美第奇处理的交易性质是什么？ 
答：那时突然有大量交易涌入，超出了预期。主要是国内电汇。举个例子，他们每天通常的交易
量可能是四五笔，但突然变成了每天大约 200笔交易，这对我们来说处理起来很困难，事先没
有通知。 
问：那时的交易金额大概是多少？ 
答：我不记得每日的交易金额，但在那段时间的总交易金额大约是 3000万美元。 
问：在那些交易量问题之后，您有没��与 G-Clubs的任何人见过面？ 
答：有。 
问：您见了谁？ 
答：我们见了 Ana Izquierdo和 Limarie Reyes。 
芬克律师说：请展示标记为政府证据 124 的文件给证人看。 
问：在这个文件出现之前，柯林斯先生——撤回。您看到屏幕上的图像了吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：政府证据 124中的人是谁？

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答：这是 Limarie Reyes。 
芬克律师说：政府提供政府证据 124。 
卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议，法官。 
法官说：证据被接纳。 
（政府的证据 124 被接纳为证据） 
问：这次与 Reyes 女士和 Izquierdo女士的会议在哪里举行？ 
答：在我位于波多黎各圣胡安的家中。 
问：您对 Reyes 女士在 G-Clubs的职位有什么了解？ 
答：她自称是总裁。 
问：根据您的理解，Izquierdo女士在 G-Clubs的角色是什么？ 
答：她自称是总法律顾问。 
问：在您家中与 G-Clubs的会议中，主要是谁在说话？ 
答：Ana Izquierdo。 
问：Izquierdo女士如何向您描述 G-Clubs？ 
答：她描述它是一个志同道合的人的俱乐部，类似于一个可以访问独家商品的会员俱乐部；大致
是这种性质。 
问：在您家中与她们的会议中，Izquierdo女士或 Reyes 女士是否提到过任何关于推翻中国共产
党？ 
答：我们没有谈论中国共产党。 
问：Izquierdo女士是否描述了 G-Clubs的目标市场？

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答：我们讨论过，有一个对这些产品感兴趣的华人侨民群体。 
问：Izquierdo女士或 Reyes 女士是否提到 G-Clubs向其成员提供股票？ 
答：我不记得我们谈到过这个。 
芬克律师说：我们可以把这个拿下来，洛夫特斯女士。 
问：您是否曾与任何 G-Clubs的成员交谈过？ 
答：我不认为我有。 
问：在与 Izquierdo女士和 Reyes 女士的会议之后，Mercantile银行是否接纳 G-Clubs作为客
户？ 
答：是的。 
问：在 G-Clubs成为客户之前，Mercantile银行对 G-Clubs进行了什么审查？ 
答：有利 Mercantile银行有一个广泛的《银行保密法》合规程序，由我们的合规部门领导，我
们按照正常程序进行了审查。 
问：您能否简要描述一下这个程序的主要内容，以便陪审团成员了解。 
答：主要来说，您需要确定控制方和受益于银行活动的各方，超过一定比例的这些方被称为最终
受益人 UBO，即我们使用的缩写——最终受益所有人。您需要确定资金来源；确定资金用途；
并对其业务目的和预期有一些基本了解。 
问：柯林斯先生，我请您将麦克风的顶部部分移动一下，就像手风琴一样，并对准您的嘴巴，这
样可以拾取声音。谢谢。 
答：这样可以吗？ 
问：可以。 
问：好的，对不起。G-Clubs表示谁是他们的最终受益所有人？

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答：我其实不记得了。 
问：G-Clubs通过了 Mercantile银行的尽职调查流程吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：在尽职调查过程中，Mercantile银行对 G-Clubs有什么担忧吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：是什么担忧？ 
答：显然与一位名叫郭文贵的先生有关系。我们对郭文贵有担忧，考虑到他的风险特征和他与中
国政府的历史。 
问：您见过郭文贵吗？ 
答：我不认为见过。 
问：Mercantile银行是否向 G-Clubs寻求关于其与郭文贵关系的说明？ 
答：对不起，您能再说一遍问题吗？ 
问：当然。Mercantile银行是否向 G-Clubs请求关于其是否以及在多大程度上与郭文贵有关系
的信息？ 
答：是的。 
问：G-Clubs对这些询问的总体回应是什么？ 
答：G-Clubs向我们保证，郭文贵不会被视为最终受益所有人，G-Clubs的资金中没有属于他
的，他只是一种可以描述为影响者或营销关系的人，他们为此支付他费用。 
问：谁向 Mercantile银行做出了这些陈述；您知道吗？ 
答：G-Clubs公司整体上做出了这些陈述；但 Ana和 Limarie 也口头做出了这些陈述。

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问：如果Mercantile银行当时知道郭文贵对 G-Clubs资金有操作控制权，Mercantile银行会为
G-Clubs开设账户吗？ 
答：不会。 
问：在 G-Clubs成为 Mercantile银行的客户之后，他们的银行活动总体上是怎样的？ 
答：总体上，他们的银行活动我会称之为交易性的，但他们开始计划另一次会员招募活动，但我
认为他们从未进行过，所以我们每天处理一些交易。 
问：您说的会员招募活动是什么意思？ 
答：我们在美第奇银行处理的最初一批交易是与一次会员招募活动有关，他们在该活动中销售
G-Clubs的会员资格。 
问：是谁告诉您这是与会员招募活动有关的？ 
答：我不记得具体是谁告诉我的，但这是在我们的合规过程中出现的。 
芬克律师说：请展示标记为政府证据 106 的文件给证人看。 
问：在这个文件出现之前，柯林斯先生——撤回。随着您与 G-Clubs的关系展开，您主要与 G-
Clubs的谁互动？ 
答：一位我称之为 Alex H的先生，因为我不会发音他的姓氏。很难发音。 
问：好的。您与 Ana Izquierdo有互动吗？ 
答：有一点。 
问：与 Limarie Reyes呢？ 
答：不多。 
问：政府证据 106中的人是谁？ 
答：这是 Alex H。

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芬克律师说：政府提供 106号证据。 
卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议，法官。 
法官说：证据被接纳。 
（政府的 106号证据被接纳为证据） 
问：H代表什么？ 
答：他的姓氏。 
问：请尽您所能发音。 
答：我真的不能。他是——即使当我 
读它时，也很难按音标发音。 
问：好的。您对 Alex H在 G-Clubs的角色有什么理解？ 
答：我相信 Alex在履行首席财务官的职责。他从未自称他的职务。 
问：CFO是什么意思？ 
答：首席财务官。 
问：您知道哪家公司支付 Alex H的工资吗？ 
答：我不能说我知道。 
芬克律师说：您可以把这个文件拿下，洛夫特斯女士。 
问：什么是 Yieldesta？ 
答：Yieldesta是我们推出的一种基于算法交易的投资工具。 
问：“我们”在这句话里是谁？

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答：Mercantile国际银行。 
问：Yieldesta 进行什么类型的投资？ 
答：主要是期货交易。 
问：G-Clubs是否曾投资于 Yieldesta？ 
答：是的。 
问：G-Clubs大约投资了多少钱在 Yieldesta？ 
答：300万美元。 
问：您之前提到与 Alex H、Ana Izquierdo的互动。您是否曾与 
王雁平沟通过 G-Clubs的事情？ 
答：我没有印象，但她可能参与过一些电话会议。 
问：与名为和浩然的人呢？ 
答：他也可能参与过一些电话会议，但我没有具体的记忆。 
问：您与 Alex H的交流类型是什么？ 
答：通常是关于会员招募活动的潜力和 Yieldesta的策略，主要是这些。 
问：当您向 Alex H推销 Yieldesta 时，他的反应是什么？ 
答：他对投资感兴趣。 
问：您认为 Alex H有能力做出这个决定吗？ 
答：不是唯一的。 
问：Alex H说了什么，关于谁需要做出这个决定？

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答：他提到一个他称为管理层的团队需要做出决定，他会代表他们。 
问：Alex H有没有说明谁是管理层？ 
答：没有。 
问：您之前提到 G Fashion 成为了 Mercantile的客户；对吗？ 
问：对不起，您能再说一遍吗？ 
问：当然。G Fashion是否曾成为 Mercantile银行的客户？ 
答：是的。 
问：G Fashion是否也进行了尽职调查？ 
答：是的。 
问：它通过了尽职调查吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：Mercantile银行是否对 G Fashion 与一个名叫郭文贵的人的关联有任何担忧？ 
答：是的。 
问：G Fashion 对其与郭文贵的关联做了什么陈述？ 
答：他们也表示 Miles不是最终受益人 UBO，他在业务中没有资金，他没有从业务中获得任何
财务利益，除了作为发言人获得报酬。 
问：Mercantile银行对这些陈述满意吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：如果Mercantile银行知道郭文贵实际上对 G Fashion有操作控制权，是否会接纳 G 
Fashion为客户？

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答：不会。 
问：您刚才提到您不记得 G-Clubs向 Mercantile银行报告的最终受益人 UBO，对吗？ 
答：对不起，您能再问一遍吗？ 
问：我想您刚才提到您不记得 G-Clubs向 Mercantile银行报告的最终受益所有人的名字，对
吗？ 
答：对。 
芬克律师说：好。洛夫特斯女士，麻烦请向证人展示标记为 GX MER1209 的文件。 
请翻到下一页。 
对不起，是 MER1210。抱歉。 
请翻到下一页。 
下一页。 
下一页。 
继续。是的。上面一点。您能放大底部吗。 
问：柯林斯先生，请看您屏幕上的图像。请看您屏幕上的图像，让我知道这是否刷新了您对 G-
Clubs向有利 Mercantile银行报告的最终受益人 UBO名字的记忆。 
答：这并没有。我不记得看过这个文件。 
芬克律师说：好。我们可以把这个拿下来。 
问：您第一次听说一家名为喜马拉雅交易所的公司是什么时候？ 
答：当 Alex H建议介绍我认识另一家他熟悉的公司，这是一家加密货币交易所、数字资产交易
所，可能是一个大存款者，有兴趣在我们这里开立银行账户时，我第一次听说喜马拉雅交易所。 
问：这大约是什么时候？

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答：2021 年夏末秋初。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所最终成为有利 Mercantile银行的客户了吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：它是否进行了尽职调查？ 
答：是的。 
问：它通过了尽职调查吗？ 
答：是的。 
问：Mercantile银行是否对喜马拉雅交易所与一个名叫郭文贵的人有任何关联感到担忧？ 
答：是的。 
问：喜马拉雅交易所告诉有利 Mercantile银行它与郭文贵的关联是什么？ 
答：他们告诉我们他不是最终受益人 UBO，他们存入我们这里的资金没有任何属于或与郭文贵
有关联的，他们除了作为付费发言人之外与他没有任何关联。 
问：柯林斯先生，当时您认为，谁在负责喜马拉雅交易所？ 
答：当时我认为是William Je负责喜马拉雅交易所。 
芬克律师说：麻烦请展示作为证据的政府证物 103。 
问：这个人是谁？ 
答：William Je。 
问：您知道他的其他名字吗？ 
答：我相信他的中文名字是余建明。 
芬克律师说：我们可以撤下这个了。

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请展示标记为政府证物 113 的文件给证人。 
问：您认识这个人吗？ 
答：这是一位住在英属维尔京群岛的先生，他在喜马拉雅交易所担任高管职位，但我不记得他的
名字。 
芬克律师说：好。政府提供 GX 113。 
卡马拉珠律师说：反对，因为证人不知道这个人的名字。 
法官说：反对有效。 
问：这个人是喜马拉雅交易所在英属维京群岛（BVI）的总裁，我相信这是 BVI的要求，即必须
有一个代表公司的当地高级管理人员。 
问： William Je告诉过你此人（政府证据 113）的什么信息？？ 
答：就是我刚才说的那些。 
问：您曾经与这个人讨论过喜马拉雅交易所的管理吗？ 
答：他参加了我们最初的一两次电话会议，但很明显他并没有真正做任何业务决策。 
芬克律师说：请展示作为证据的政府证物 BR208A。 
请翻到下一页。 
洛夫特斯女士，您能放大签名行吗？ 
问：柯林斯先生，您能读一下这个名字吗？ 
答：Jesse Brown（杰西·布朗）。 
问：这是否刷新了您的记忆？ 
答：是的。

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芬克律师说：好的，洛夫特斯女士，请把它缩小。 
问：杰西·布朗是否声称签署了您屏幕上的这个文件？ 
答：我从未与杰西·布朗讨论过这个文件。 
问：您以前见过这个文件吗？ 
答：没有。 
问：根据您现在的审阅，谁签署了这个文件？ 
答：看起来是杰西·布朗签署了这个文件。 
芬克律师说：好的，我们能否只为证人展示证据 GX 113。 
法庭：现在是 3:00，今天我们就到此为止。 
陪审团成员们，下周一按照新的时间安排。 上午 9:30 至 11:30，休息半小时，接着下午
12 点至下午 2:30，然后休息半小时，之后从下午 3 点一直到下午 5 点。周三将不开庭。 
请记住，陪审员不得与其他陪审员或其他任何人讨论此案。不要让任何人在你们面前讨
论，也不要阅读、观看或收听任何与本案有关的内容。 
周末愉快。 
（陪审团离场） 
法官说：你可以离开，不要讨论你的证词。 
（证人离场） 
法官说：请坐。 
在我们周末休庭前还有什么要说的吗？ 
卡马拉珠律师说：辩方没有，法官。

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芬克律师说：政府也没有。周末愉快，法官。 
法官说：周末愉快。 
卡马拉珠律师说：谢谢，法官。 
（休庭至 2024 年 6 月 17日上午 9 点）

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审查索引 
证人：           页码 
 
杰米·威尔森 
 
莫里女士的直接询问    …………..    2586 
巴尔坎先生的交叉询问    …………..    2596 
莫里女士的再次直接询问    …………..    2619 
巴尔坎先生的再次交叉询问  …………..    2622 
 
塞缪尔·罗伯茨 
 
霍顿先生的直接询问   …………..    2623 
希里克先生的交叉询问   …………..    2685 
霍顿先生的再次直接询问   …………..    2737 
希里克先生的再次交叉询问  …………..    2746 
霍顿先生的再次直接询问   …………..    2751 
 
詹姆斯·罗伯特·柯林斯 
 
芬克尔先生的直接询问   …………..    2753 
 
政府证据 
证据编号           接收 
106      …………..    2763 
124      …………..    2758 
BR190     …………..    2703 
BR208A     …………..    2664 
BR212     …………..    2678

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