Original Court Transcript(原始庭审记录)
3573
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
v. 23 Cr. 118 (AT)
MILES GUO,
Defendant. Trial
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New York, N.Y.
June 21, 2024
9:00 a.m.
Before:
HON. ANALISA TORRES,
District Judge
-and a Jury-
APPEARANCES
DAMIAN WILLIAMS
United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
BY: MICAH F. FERGENSON
RYAN B. FINKEL
JUSTIN HORTON
JULIANA N. MURRAY
Assistant United States Attorneys
SABRINA P. SHROFF
Attorney for Defendant
PRYOR CASHMAN LLP
Attorneys for Defendant
BY: SIDHARDHA KAMARAJU
MATTHEW BARKAN
ALSTON & BIRD LLP
Attorneys for Defendant
BY: E. SCOTT SCHIRICK
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ALSO PRESENT:
Isabel Loftus, Paralegal Specialist, USAO
Robert Stout, Special Agent, FBI
Ruben Montilla, Defense Paralegal
Tuo Huang, Interpreter (Mandarin)
Shi Feng, Interpreter (Mandarin)
Yu Mark Tang, Interpreter (Mandarin)
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(Trial resumed; jury not present)
THE COURT: Good morning. Make your appearances,
please.
MS. MURRAY: Juliana Murray, Ryan Finkel, Micah
Fergenson and Justin Horton on behalf of the United States.
MR. KAMARAJU: Good morning, your Honor. Sid Kamaraju
on behalf of Mr. Guo. Mr. Guo is at the counsel's table, and
we're also joined by Jorge Salazar.
THE COURT: Please be seated. Are there any issues
you'd like to discuss before we continue with the testimony?
MR. KAMARAJU: Not from the defense, your Honor.
MR. FINKEL: Not so much an issue, your Honor, but
just an update. With thanks to the Court for allowing us to
sit full days, the government has made real progress this week
in its presentation of evidence. Given our current
projections, we believe that we will rest on Tuesday. Don't
hold me to that. I can't control the cross. We told defense
counsel this on Wednesday, two days ago, and had a good
discussion with the defense about the scope of their case and
just trying to understand how long that would take. The
government doesn't know exactly who the defense's witnesses are
going to be. We have their witness list, but we understand
from discussion that it's going to be a subset of who's on
their witness list, so we're going to talk some more, I assume,
to figure that out.
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What we would request is that the defense provide us
tomorrow, on Saturday, any additional 26.2 material that has
been generated, and on a going forward basis. Just as the
government has provided its 3500 material, the defense should
provide its 26.2 material daily to the extent their exist any.
And that we ask that the defense tell us early Sunday morning
who they anticipate will be their witnesses come either late
Tuesday or early Wednesday so that we could appropriately
prepare and provide the jury an efficient presentation of
evidence.
So the Court also knows on Wednesday we told the
defense who we think will be our witnesses next week. We're
going to confirm that tonight. We might add one or two
witnesses, like a custodial witness, potentially a police
officer from Cambridge, but pretty much who is left is more or
less known to the defense. So that's an update for schedule
just so Your Honor knows.
THE COURT: You bring me good news.
MR. FINKEL: I'm happy to do that.
THE COURT: Mr. Kamaraju, with regard to your
production?
MR. KAMARAJU: That's fine, your Honor. We're happy
to oblige and we'll continue to produce any witness statements
that we have on a rolling basis as we develop them.
THE COURT: All righty. So if you'll have your
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witness on the stand at 9:29, please.
MR. FINKEL: We will certainly do that. I guess the
thing to add -- defense counsel can speak more to this, just
again for the Court's awareness. It appears based on their
current projections that they think they'll rest their case --
and you'll correct me if I have this wrong -- but I think on
July 2nd or so. That doesn't count if the defendant testifies.
And obviously that's not something that anyone could say is yes
or no. That's Mr. Guo's decision, and he'll make that
decision. But if he does testify, that's obviously going to
add sometime to the trial. And so we'll sort of see I think
how things progress. The government may request additional
full days to the extent it suits the Court and the jury. I'm
not sure what that look means.
THE COURT: That means that I think that all of us
would be motivated to help the trial move along.
MR. FINKEL: Yes, certainly that's the government's
point of view. And I appreciate that's your Honor's point of
view. To the extent the defense can provide anymore
information to the Court about its schedule and what it
presumes will be its presentation, they can certainly do that.
I just want to update the Court on what the government knows.
MR. KAMARAJU: We are, I think, as Mr. Finkel sort of
alluded to, we are going through our witness list, your Honor.
We're trying to streamline it. We've had discussions with the
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government about sort of obviating the need for certain
witnesses, so we are hopeful -- again, not factoring in whether
Mr. Guo testifies, but we're hopeful that at least with respect
to the other witnesses that we would be able to rest prior to
the 4th of July break under a week. The only thing I will
say -- and we can take it as we go along is given that we are
nearing sort of the end of the government's case and the
defense case, we would likely need more time to prepare Mr. Guo
in the possibility of his testifying. And so we would just ask
at those times that we have the schedule that your Honor had
previously proposed to give us some of that time in the
afternoon to meet with him, in the event that he decides to
testify. We can address that I think as we see the schedule
coming, that's just to give your Honor sort of a preview.
THE COURT: So I do want to go over the days that
we're going to have off, and I need to check with my law clerk.
All righty. So we will not be meeting on Friday, June 28th,
nor will we be meeting on Monday, July 1st. We have off July
4th, which is Thursday, and July 5th, which is Friday, so just
wanted you to keep that in mind.
MR. KAMARAJU: Yes. Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: All righty. Thank you.
(Recess)
THE COURT: Now that we have the good news, I want to
know if the parties can get their comments to me about the jury
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charge by Monday?
MR. FINKEL: Good news always comes with bad news.
The government --
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, the witness is on the stand.
I'm just letting the Court know in case it matters.
THE COURT: I don't think it does with respect to this
issue.
MR. FINKEL: The government can certainly do that. I
guess we ask could we have till Tuesday.
THE COURT: Tuesday. The defense can do it by
Tuesday?
MS. SHROFF: It's only one here out of the team, I
think so, your Honor. But if they disagree with me, I will let
the Court know shortly.
THE COURT: Thank you. All righty. Let's have the
jurors brought in.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning, Jurors.
We're going to continue with the direct examination of the
witness. Please remember that you're still under oath. You
may inquire.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
GABRIELLA LUCIANO, resumed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Good morning, Special Agent Luciano.
A. Good morning.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please publish Government Exhibit
NJ-808 and go to page two, please. Zoom in on the bottom
portion.
Special Agent Luciano, we were looking at this when we
left off yesterday. Can you please read what is listed as
service providers on the left?
A. The service provider was Acass Canada, LTD.
Q. On the right, what is the customer?
A. The customer is Whitecroft Shore Limited.
Q. There's a signature below that and then a printed name,
what is the printed name?
A. Mei Guo.
Q. And the title listed for Mei Guo?
A. Sole director.
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Q. Of what company?
A. Whitecroft Shore limited.
Q. Ms. Loftus, we can zoom out and go to the next page,
please. Let's focus on the top portion through to the second
resolved, please.
What is the title of this document?
A. It's the Consent of Sole Member Without a Meeting.
Q. And the line above that, what does that read?
A. Hudson Diamond Holding, LLC.
Q. Special Agent Luciano, do you know what Hudson Diamond
Holding LLC is?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Now looking at the second resolved, can you please read the
text there?
A. Resolved that Yanping Yvette Wang will be and hereby is
appointed signing officer for the company and be it further.
Q. Let's zoom out of that, please Ms. Loftus, and go to the
next page, please, and zoom in on the content here.
Looking at election of officers, Special Agent
Luciano, who is listed there and what are the titles?
A. Yanping Yvette Wang, president, Max Krasner, vice
president.
Q. And then at the bottom, what is the date of this document?
A. July 17, 2019.
Q. And what is the name under the signature line?
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A. Mei Guo.
Q. We can take that down. Can we please put up New Jersey or
NJ-209. What type of room is this, Special Agent Luciano?
A. This is a bathroom.
Q. Let's go to NJ-2010. This room, what floor was this on in
the Mahwah residence?
A. This is on one of the upper floors.
Q. Can we please pull up NJ-335 and NJ-336.
What type of room are we looking at here?
A. This room was being used as a closet.
Q. Did you observe this room during your search on March 15,
2023?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What observations did you have about this room?
A. The room was filled with luxury designer clothing. It was
predominantly woman's apparel. There was a dry cleaning
station in the room and an extremely large Hermes tote bag.
Q. We can take that down and put up NJ-338, please.
What type of room are we looking at here?
A. This looked like an office or media room, but a smaller
one.
Q. And on the left side of this photo there's some type of
equipment, what does that appear to be?
A. Camera equipment.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom in on the right most picture
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on the wall, please. We can take that down and put up NJ-259.
MS. SHROFF: I'm sorry, was there a question?
MS. MURRAY: I was just highlighting the picture that
the witness just testified to, your Honor.
THE COURT: All righty. Go ahead.
Q. NJ-259. Special Agent Luciano, what is this?
A. It's an item reading personal shirt, Miles Kwok, ship to
Italy.
Q. Let's put up NJ-229. What is shown in this photo?
A. Personal photographs.
Q. We can take that down.
Special Agent Luciano, are you familiar with the FBI's
search warrant protocol?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Does that protocol include identifying or marking rooms to
be searched?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Yesterday you mentioned that or we looked at one of those
room markings, do you recall that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What type of document or sketch, if any, does the FBI
prepare in conducting a search warrant?
A. There are multiple documents. There will be a search of
the site. There will be a sketch of the search. So it will be
in this case broken up floor by floor, or in sometimes more
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specifically wing by wing. There will be a log of sign-in and
sign-out for all personnel. There will be a log of evidence
items collected. Each item will be labeled with the room in
which it was found, who found it, a description of where it
was, and the date and the location of the item. And there will
also be an FD-597 which is paperwork that is left behind with a
generalized receipt so that, should somebody not be home during
the search, they can see generally what was taken, but that's
not a specific list.
Q. What types of logs, if any, are there regarding the
photographs that are taken during the search?
A. There's also a log for all of the photographs taken.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please display just for the witness
Government Exhibit NJ-358, and we can flip through the pages.
Special Agent Luciano, what is this?
A. This is the sketch from the search.
Q. And the search of what property on what date?
A. This is March 15, 2023, and the location is 675 Ramapo
Valley Road, Mahwah, New Jersey.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers
Government Exhibit NJ-358.
MS. SHROFF: Objection, your Honor. Your Honor,
there's a slew of objection, so.
THE COURT: We'll have a sidebar.
(Continued on next page)
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(At the sidebar)
MS. SHROFF: Thank you, your Honor. All of these
documents are written hearsay. They do not fall within any
exception, and therefore the defense has an objection to the
introduction of them as evidence. Some of them I only got
notice of this morning, so I was not able to raise it earlier.
THE COURT: Are they all drawings?
MS. SHROFF: No. Some of them -- I'm happy to hand
them to the Court which was handed to me just now.
MS. MURRAY: For the clarity of the record, only one
document was handed to the defense today. The others had been
identified in the list of exhibits that we intended to
introduce through Ms. Luciano. The document that was handed to
the defense this morning is something we produced long ago in
Rule 16 discovery. I'd also just note for the record, the
defense produced a decent quantity of documents today this
morning to us marked as defense exhibits that had never been
produced to us previously.
MS. SHROFF: I wasn't pointing it out that you hadn't
done something correctly. I was just pointing as to why I
hadn't raised it before.
THE COURT: Let's talk about the first item. That
looks like a handmade drawing of the layout of the property.
Is that correct?
MS. MURRAY: That's correct, your Honor. And Special
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Agent Luciano just testified that she's familiar with the FBI's
procedure for executing search warrants. They include creating
a hand-drawn sketch. They include creating evidence logs of
items collected, which is one of the items that we seek to
introduce through her. And they include photograph logs that
identify where different photographs were taken so that we can
link the photographs that we've shown her to the specific
location of the search property.
THE COURT: So starting with the drawing. Is she
going to be able to say that she recognizes this as an accurate
drawing of the property?
MS. MURRAY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's go to the other documents. These
logs, they come in because?
MS. MURRAY: They come in because they relate to items
that she has testified to that she saw herself on that day. So
between the sketch that she's able to authenticate, and then
the photograph logs that we have, which are three of them for
different floors of the property, it will help her say and
confirm that, yes, that is the room where I identified this
item that we talked about from the sketch. And these are
maintained in the normal course by the FBI for all the premises
searches they conduct.
THE COURT: Is there anything on the log that she had
nothing to do with?
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O6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct
MS. MURRAY: I guess for clarification there are items
on the log that relate to photographs of rooms that she might
not have gone into, so yes. It's relating to the broader
search, but each of the logs has information relevant to things
that she saw that day, things that she tagged as evidence,
things that she did in the course of her work that day as a
searcher.
THE COURT: It's those items that you're looking to
highlight for this witness?
MS. MURRAY: Correct.
THE COURT: And so if there are items that don't
relate to the witness, you wouldn't be concerned?
MS. MURRAY: No, your Honor, because all of the logs
just maintain information about items that were seized pursuant
to the search warrant as through instrumentalities or evidence
of the subject offenses.
THE COURT: She will be able to authenticate them as
business records?
MS. MURRAY: These documents, yes. As I just
inquired, and I can ask additional questions, but she said that
that is the process of maintaining these different documents
for all FBI searches.
THE COURT: Mr. Kamaraju.
MR. KAMARAJU: I don't think the issue is an
authentication issue. I think it's a hearsay issue. And the
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hearsay exception that would typically apply to FBI records is
803(a), a record or statement of a public office, if it sets
out the officer's activities, a matter observed while under a
legal duty to report, but not including in a criminal case, a
matter observed by law enforcement personnel. FBI records are
not business records. If they were, your Honor, then the
defense would be able to introduce 302s, for example. Those
are not -- and the fact that this is what the FBI does in
connection with other searches, doesn't mean that it's
regularly conducted activity to search Mahwah, for example. So
I don't think the government can rely on the business rule
exception when there's a much more specific hearsay exception
that's specific with regard to what business records are. I've
actually never seen a case, and maybe the government has
authority for it, where an FBI record is admitted as a business
record.
THE COURT: What I don't understand is what would be
the proper foundation?
MR. KAMARAJU: Well, I think at least for the logs, I
think the logs contain information that says, photographs 17 is
a picture of this, right. And it's found in "X" place. So if
they want to put up a photograph, that is what it is. But to
put in a log to say, this is a photograph of an item. That
item was found there. That's hearsay.
THE COURT: What about the items that she has
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specifically identified, where she has seen the photograph and
she said this is a photograph of X and that is simply written
out on the log?
MR. KAMARAJU: Well, then, I make two points. One is
I'm not sure why it's relevant that it's on the log; but two, I
would say that the log is cumulative of her testimony saying
that, I've seen the photograph. It is what it is.
THE COURT: So suppose I were to reject the cumulative
argument?
MR. KAMARAJU: Well, it's worth the defense.
THE COURT: I assume the items that she identified on
the property and in the courtroom would not be considered
hearsay?
MR. KAMARAJU: I believe they still would, your Honor.
It's still an out-of-court statement being admitted for the
truth.
THE COURT: In other words, it's merely a record that
she created.
MR. KAMARAJU: All FBI reports are merely a record,
right. They're a record of a matter observed by an FBI agent,
just like a 302, just like an evidence log. They're all
records of matters observed by law enforcement personnel, which
are specifically under the hearsay rule. Whether she observed,
whether she knows it personally or not, because the objection
is not authentication or lack of personal knowledge. It is
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specifically hearsay, and this witness's knowledge has nothing
to do with the hearsay exception.
THE COURT: I have to say I'm not familiar with this
rule. Are you?
MS. MURRAY: I am not deeply familiar with the rule,
your Honor.
MR. KAMARAJU: And I have it here.
MS. SHROFF: I do want to cite United States v.
Schulte. In that case, I tried to introduce the FBI 302.
Mr. Kamaraju was the assistant United States attorney versing
me and I lost. And those 302s were deemed inadmissible by the
Honorable Judge Crotty. Because, one, the FBI is not a
business; and two, that exception applied which is why
Mr. Kamaraju knows it so well.
MR. FINKEL: In the alternative, your Honor,
Ms. Murray could ask the agent as to each document, where did
you find this. She might say she remembers or she doesn't, and
we can use the photograph log to refresh her recollection. It
might refresh her recollection. We can do that for each one.
And then if there are additional items, assuming the Court
sustains the objection on this, if there are additional items,
then we may need to call additional FBI witnesses who collected
those particular items to state as to where those items were
found. That would be the alternative to admitting the record
if your Honor sustains the objection.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct
In some sense, there's an efficiency in this, and that
would be up to the defense if they want to pursue the hearsay
objection on additional items and your Honor sustains the
objection on additional to show where they were found that she
didn't personally find. We'd have to get those agents to come
in and explain where they found these items.
THE COURT: Is that a threat?
MR. FINKEL: It's not a threat. Of course not. I'm
just telling your Honor the government's thinking, and also the
defense so they understand.
THE COURT: Are you saying that -- I have to sustain
the objection because now I've been educated, but you'll think
about whether it's necessary to bring any additional witnesses.
MR. FINKEL: We certainly will. And just so your
Honor knows as we told your Honor this morning, we've
streamlined our case quite a bit, so we've definitely been
thinking about these things.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
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O6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct
(In open court; jury present)
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please display for the witness
Government Exhibit 358, NJ-358. Actually, we can take that
down.
Let's put up for the jury as well what's in evidence
as Exhibits NJ-40, 41 and 42. We can do them one at a time.
Let's do 40 first, please. If we could zoom in on the top
portion, please.
Special Agent Luciano, what's the date on the top
right of this document?
A. 2/11/2022.
Q. And what is the name in all caps at the top of this
document?
A. Cedric DuPont Antiques.
Q. Looking on the left side, can you read the name of the
company and the address under sold to?
A. Sold to Taurus Fund LLC, Sky Pointe Drive, Suite 129-1071.
Las Vegas, Nevada 89141.
Q. And then looking at the line under ship to, can you read
the same information for ship to, please?
A. Ship to Taurus Fund LLC, 675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah,
New Jersey 07430.
Q. We can take out the zoom, Ms. Loftus. Let's now go to
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NJ-41, please. If we could zoom in on the top half of this.
Special Agent Luciano, do you see handwriting on the
first two items here?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Can you read for the first item what that handwriting
indicates?
A. Flower painting location madame's bed south door right.
Q. And what is the price listed for that item and then the
amount?
A. The price was $26,500 dollars. The amount was $19,610.
Q. And item two, the same question with respect to the
handwriting, can you please read that?
A. 1/F hallway madame's living north close to clock door or
closet door.
Q. And what is the price listed and the amount listed for that
item?
A. The price is $43,500 and the amount is $32,190.
Q. You can zoom out of that, please, Ms. Loftus, and let's go
now and zoom in on the remaining line items here.
Looking at item 8588, Special Agent Luciano, what is
the description of that item?
A. A sensational and very rare pair of palatially scaled
Italian mid-19 Century Baroque st double-framed giltwood
mirrors.
Q. What is the price and the amount listed for that item?
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A. The price was $165,000, and the amount was $12,100.
Q. Looking now at the next item CDM, what is the handwriting
listed for that item?
A. Mei's bedroom, bed left top to ceiling.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we can take that down and put up NJ-42,
please. If we could zoom in on the very top portion to the
first item here.
Special Agent Luciano, do you see writing up at the
top portion of this document?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What does that say?
A. It looks like it reads, Personal entrance.
Q. We can take that down. Ms. Loftus, can we show for the
witness only Exhibit NJ-358 and scroll through the pages.
Special Agent Luciano, do you recognize what is
depicted in NJ-358?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What do you recognize it to be?
A. It's the Mahwah residence.
Q. Is NJ-358 a fair and accurate representation of the Mahwah
residence as you observed it on March 15, 2023?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers NJ-358.
MS. SHROFF: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
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(Government's Exhibit NJ-358 received in evidence)
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Can you explain to the jury, please, Special Agent Luciano,
what we're looking at on page one here?
A. This is an overview of the property done by sketch.
Q. Let's go to the next page, please.
What are we looking at here on page two?
A. This is the basement, so the lower level of the residence
in a sketch.
Q. Can you please identify on this sketch for the jury where
the pool area that we have looked at the photos of yesterday is
located?
A. There's a piece that says hot tub.
Q. Is that at the top middle of this sketch?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Let's go to the next page, please.
What is this showing us, Special Agent Luciano?
A. This is the main floor of the residence.
Q. And the next page, please. Which floor is this?
A. This is the second floor of the residence.
Q. Can you identify on this sketch where the safe that we
looked at photos of yesterday was located?
A. Yes, ma'am. It's immediately to the left of the opening to
the first floor section in the room that says closet labeled
YY.
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Q. And the room just below that labeled VV, which room is
that?
A. That's the wide open room being used as a closet to store
linens. It was the second in the series that we saw through
the doorframes yesterday.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can we pull up alongside, please, Government
Exhibit NJ-204. I think it's the left page on the left.
So, Special Agent Luciano, can you explain for the
jury how the photo we're looking at on the right relates to the
sketch we're looking at on the left of the second floor?
A. Sure. This is room VV. It's just rotated.
Q. Where in the photo on the right would room YY where the
safe was located be?
A. It's in the white closed door on the right-hand side of the
wall bearing the open clothing rack.
Q. And, Ms. Loftus, let's keep 358 up on the left, please, and
on the right can we please put up Exhibit NJ-201.
Special Agent Luciano, I want to look again at NJ-201.
It's one of the rooms we talked about yesterday, and just go to
the next page on the left side, please.
Where on the sketch on the left here is the room
that's depicted in NJ-201?
A. If we could zoom in a little bit so I could see the
numbers, but it's on the left-hand side.
Q. Ms. Loftus, we can actually zoom out and zoom in on the
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left column of that sketch.
A. The bedroom is room SS.
Q. And the dresser we're looking at in the photo on NJ-201,
where, if anywhere, is that depicted in the sketch in SS on the
left?
A. It's the long rectangular object on the right-hand side of
room SS.
Q. And, Ms. Loftus, if we could now pull up on the right. We
can keep that on the left. If we could pull up on the right
NJ-250.
Special Agent Luciano, where in the sketch on the left
was this item depicted in NJ-250 located?
A. It was located in room SS in the long rectangular item on
the sketch.
Q. We can take those down. If we could please put up,
Ms. Loftus, what's in evidence as Exhibit NJ-607.
Special Agent Luciano, if we could focus on the top
portion third floor. Actually, the top above that, what is the
word listed above third floor?
A. Crocker.
Q. And what, if anything, do you understand that to refer to?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. So looking down third floor, if you could read just the
descriptions of the room, what appears to be description of
rooms running down the page?
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A. Mei's closet, Mei's closet ceiling, Mei's bedroom ceiling,
Mei's bedroom cove, Mei's bath cove, clubroom bar, clubroom
picture, Wayne's bedroom, bathroom vanity, Wayne's office,
bathroom; Wayne's bedroom sconces, Wayne's living sconces.
Q. Do you know who Wayne is?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Do you know who Mei is?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Looking at the second floor, similarly if you could read
down just the names of the rooms?
A. Boss' main bath shower, Boss' main bath toilet, boss' main
bath center chandelier, boss' main bath, boss' main bath, boss'
sconce lights hall entry, boss' sconce lights living entry,
boss' pico bath entry, madame's bath number two ceiling light,
madame's bath number two shower light, madame's bath number two
vanity light.
Q. We can zoom out of that and go to the next page please,
Ms. Loftus.
Special Agent Luciano, do you know who boss is?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Do you know who madame refers to?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Let's take this down and go to Exhibit NJ-608, please.
Looking here if you could just read the words that are
bold and underline on this exhibit?
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A. Madame main hall, boss closet, boss grand bath, boss bed,
boss sitting.
Q. Let's stay up on the first page, please, Ms. Loftus.
And what floor based on this document are those rooms
associated with?
A. The second floor.
Q. Let's scroll down. The bottom of this page, what does it
say?
A. Son's hall, son's closet, son's bath, hall club room, Mei's
bed, Mei's living, Mei's closet.
Q. Do you know who son refers to?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Looking at the top of the screen right here the bottom of
the first page, what floor are those rooms associated with?
A. The third floor.
Q. Ms. Loftus, let's take that down and pull up NJ-155 and
NJ-156, please.
Looking first on the left, Special Agent Luciano, what
type of equipment appears in the center of this photo?
A. Production equipment.
Q. And looking in the photo of the right, is that a different
view of the same room.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Ms. Loftus, let's take it down and just put up 156, please,
and zoom in on the bookcase against the wall.
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Special Agent Luciano, do you see the item that's in
the center of that bookcase on the shelf?
A. I do.
Q. What does that appear to be?
A. A statue.
Q. Ms. Loftus, let's take that down, if we could pull up
Government Exhibit GXZ-9 at page 189, and zoom in on the top
portion of this.
Special Agent Luciano, what's the date in the column
on the left here?
A. 2/8/2023.
Q. And looking at the photo on the top of this exhibit what,
if anything, do you recognize from that photo based on your
search of Mahwah on March 15, 2023?
A. The bookcase.
Q. Is that the same bookcase we just looked at in Government
Exhibit NJ-156?
A. It appears to be.
Q. Do you see an item that appears above the individual's
heard you can see a portion of it in this photo in Z-9 at page
189?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How, if at all, does that look familiar to you based on
your search of Mahwah on March 15, 2023?
A. It looks to be the same statue.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct
Q. Ms. Loftus, we can take that down and put up Government
Exhibit C-461, please. Actually, let's take that down and
let's go back to Government Exhibit Z-9 at page 197. If we
could zoom in on the bottom entry here.
Special Agent Luciano, what is the date in the left
column here?
A. The date is 2/19/2023.
(Continued on next page)
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BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. And looking in the box on the right with the photo, what is
the text below that, the black text that's written there?
A. "On February 19, 2023, Miles Guo revealed this breaking
news in his live broadcast."
Q. Looking at the photo above that, what, if anything, do you
recognize in that photo from your search of Mahwah on March 15,
2023?
A. The bookcase.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could now go to
Government Exhibit W5-V.
If we could play from the 1:50 mark to the 2:05 mark,
please.
Q. Special Agent Luciano——
MS. MURRAY: Before we start that, if we could go
back——sorry, Ms. Loftus——to the beginning.
Q. Looking at this image, what, if anything, do you recognize
in this image from your search of Mahwah on March 15, 2023?
A. The bookcase and the statue.
Q. And where is the statue in this image?
A. On the shelf immediately to the left of Mr. Guo's head.
MS. MURRAY: All right. So let's start at 1:50 and
play to 2:05, please.
(Video played)
MS. MURRAY: If we could play just another few seconds
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there, please.
(Video continued)
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Special Agent Luciano, have you ever seen this video
before?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. There is a kind of an oval on the top left of the screen.
Do you see that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What words are written there?
A. New Federal State of China.
Q. And below that?
A. CCP does not equal Chinese.
Q. Do you know what the New Federal State of China is?
A. No, ma'am.
MS. MURRAY: And Ms. Loftus, let's take that down and
go to Government Exhibit NJ256.
I want to zoom in on the bottom entry, please.
If we could actually zoom out so we can see the full
document and then zoom in there.
Q. Looking at the bottom entry, Special Agent Luciano, what is
the description of that item?
A. Thank you. Crocodile hoodie leather jacket-50.
Q. And the price that's listed for that item?
A. $129,600.
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O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct
MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, let's now go to
Government Exhibit Z9 at page 206.
Q. Looking at the bottom entry here, Special Agent Luciano,
what is the date in the leftmost column?
A. 3/8/2023.
Q. And looking in the right, there is a bracket and then some
text. Can you please read both of those.
A. "March 7th, 2023. Full text of Miles Guo's GETTR video."
MS. MURRAY: Let's scroll down, please, Ms. Loftus.
Actually, just a moment. Can we take that down and go
to——may I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we go to Government
Exhibit W183, please. And that's what's cited on the right
side of that entry we just looked at.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Special Agent Luciano, do you see the heading on this
document?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Is that the same heading you just read from Government
Exhibit Z9 at page 206?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. MURRAY: If we could scroll down a bit to the
photo please, Ms. Loftus. And pause there.
Q. Do you see the clothing that is depicted in this photograph
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on the individual?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. MURRAY: If we could zoom in on that, Ms. Loftus.
Q. What does that appear to be?
A. It's a crocodile black jacket bearing the label G Fashion.
Q. And what type of jacket, if any?
A. Crocodile, or leather.
Q. Is there any kind of a collar or any other identifying
feature of the jacket?
A. It's a hoodie.
MS. MURRAY: All right. We can zoom back to normal
and scroll down a bit, please.
Q. And actually, what letters are there in yellow on the left
side of this?
A. NFSC.
Q. Do you know what NFSC is?
A. Below it, it says the New Federal State of China.
MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, let's scroll
down, please.
Keep going a bit.
All right. Pause there, please.
Q. In the middle of this page, Special Agent Luciano, starting
with, "Take a look," can you please read that and the next two
paragraphs.
A. "Take a look at this leather hoodie I am wearing. Look at
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the texture of the leather; it's as soft as flowing water. One
of my friends in France and another family in Japan have the
same style as this one; it looks terrific on everybody.
"You will look dashing and charming if you wear this
style of clothes correctly, right? You can also put on the
hood, making you look more dashing . . . right? What do you
think? Does it look good?
"Wearing this leather hoodie, whether walking with
your mate on the beach or boarding a yacht, how romantic it
will be, right? It also looks very cute, isn't it?"
Q. Now, Special Agent Luciano, in the text that you just read,
did you see any references to the CCP?
A. No, ma'am.
MS. MURRAY: We can take that down.
And let's put up Government Exhibit NJ807, please.
Zoom in on the top portion of this for the moment,
please, Ms. Loftus.
Q. What is the title of this document?
A. Residential Lease Agreement.
Q. Who is listed on this as the landlord?
A. Taurus Fund SP.
Q. And in what country is the address for Taurus Fund SP?
A. Grand Cayman Islands.
Q. Who is listed as the tenant?
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, I have an objection. This is
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not a summary witness. This is a witness who is testifying
about a specific topic. She's not a summary witness.
THE COURT: Is this a document that's already in
evidence?
MS. MURRAY: Yes, your Honor, and it was seized during
the search that Special Agent Luciano conducted.
THE COURT: All righty. You may continue.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Could you read the Tenant line, please.
A. Naok Hing Chi.
Q. And the address?
A. 373 Taconic Road, Greenwich, Connecticut, 06831.
MS. MURRAY: Let's zoom out of that, please,
Ms. Loftus.
And let's focus on Property, Term, and Rent, the first
three items.
Q. What property does this residential lease agreement relate
to?
A. 675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, New Jersey 07430.
Q. And the line above that, if you could just read the first
line, ending with the parenthetical.
A. "The Tenant agrees to lease from the Landlord and the
Landlord agrees to lease to the tenant."
Q. And how is it described in the parenthetical there?
A. The single-family home.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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Q. And in item 2, there's a lease term. Looking at the first
sentence, what is the lease term of this residential lease
agreement?
A. The term of this lease is for two years starting on June 1,
2022, and ending on May 31, 2024.
Q. And item 3 here, the rent, what is the rent for that
two-year term of lease?
A. The rent for the term of this lease is $2,400,000, to be
paid as follows: $100,000 per month, which is due on the first
day of each month.
Q. And to what entity or individual is the rent payable?
A. Taurus Fund SP.
MS. MURRAY: Zoom out of that and go to the next page,
please.
Q. At the bottom of this page, Special Agent Luciano, do you
see what appear to be initials?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And what party to this contract initialed this document?
A. The tenant.
MS. MURRAY: Zoom out of that. Go to the next page,
please.
Pause there for a moment.
If we could focus on items 31 and 32 here.
Q. For item 31, what is the title of that portion of this
residential lease agreement?
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A. LEAD-BASED PAINT DOCUMENT ACKNOWLEDGMENT.
Q. And item 32, what is the title of that portion of this
residential lease agreement?
A. WINDOW GUARD NOTIFICATION.
Q. Can you just read the first sentence of item 32.
A. "THE OWNER (LANDLORD) IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO PROVIDE,
INSTALL, AND MAINTAIN WINDOW GUARDS IN THE APARTMENT IF A CHILD
OR CHILDREN 10 YEARS OF AGE OR YOUNGER IS, OR WILL BE, LIVING
IN THE APARTMENT OR IS, OR WILL BE, REGULARLY PRESENT THERE FOR
A SUBSTANTIAL PERIOD OF TIME IF THE TENANT GIVES THE OWNER
(LANDLORD) A WRITTEN REQUEST THAT THE WINDOW GUARDS BE
INSTALLED."
MS. MURRAY: We can zoom out of that.
Let's go to the next page, please.
And stop there. If we could focus here on the
handwriting.
Q. What is the date on the left side here?
A. 05/29/2022.
Q. And there's a signature on the right. What is the printed
name below the signature on Tenant?
A. Naok Hing Chi.
MS. MURRAY: Zoom out, Ms. Loftus.
Go down to the next page.
And the next page.
The next page.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
Q. And again, Special Agent Luciano, on the bottom of these
pages, there is a space for initials. What party to the
agreement initialed all of these pages?
A. The tenant.
MS. MURRAY: We can take that down.
May I have a moment, please, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. Special Agent Luciano, were you involved in the
investigation into Miles Guo beyond executing the search
warrant on March 15, 2023?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. The photographs and documents that we've looked at during
your testimony, are those all of the photographs and documents
that were taken on March 15, 2023?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Did you select the photos and documents that we discussed
during your testimony?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Who did?
A. The government.
MS. MURRAY: Nothing further, your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. Agent Luciano, you've worked for the FBI since 2017; is
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
that correct?
A. No.
Q. So what year did you start with them?
A. 2019.
Q. 2019. And who did you work for before 2019?
A. I worked for Pearson.
Q. What's Pearson?
A. An education publishing company.
Q. And since 2019 until now, you've worked for the same squad?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Which squads did you work for before this squad?
A. I worked for HIDTA squad, which is a drug trafficking
squad; I worked for white collar crime squad; and I worked on a
surveillance squad.
Q. Okay. And as part of your duties for the FBI, you took
photographs of this place called Crocker Mansion, correct?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Okay. You took none of the photographs that you viewed
today, right?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. No, you didn't take them? I just want to make sure I
understand your answer.
A. I did not take any of the photographs.
MS. SHROFF: I thought I heard a dog. Sorry.
THE COURT: So is there an infant or a small animal
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3612
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
here?
So the courtroom is not a place for pets.
Oh, it was a sneeze. Well, then bless you.
All righty. Go ahead.
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. And by the way, do you know how many special agents there
are in the FBI?
A. I do not.
Q. Hundred thousand?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Okay. And you were telling me that you took none of the
photographs that we saw in the courtroom yesterday and today,
correct?
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. SHROFF: I was just trying to get back to base,
your Honor; that's all.
THE COURT: All right. So don't——
MS. SHROFF: I'll move on.
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. And you met with Ms. Murray to prepare for your testimony
here, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you reviewed these photographs with her, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
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3613
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
Q. And when you reviewed them with her, did you juxtapose them
just like they were juxtaposed at trial, or was that done just
in court for you for the first time?
A. Could you repeat the question. I don't understand.
Q. Sure. Of course. You know at times Ms. Murray put two
photographs side by side and asked you questions? Do you
remember that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. So did she do that during the prep or was it the first time
for you when she did it in court?
A. We did not review that at prep.
Q. Okay. So when she put the two photographs side by side,
that was the first time you'd ever seen those?
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained. So don't repeat the questions.
Q. Let me go back to the last document, 807, okay?
You testified about this document a minute ago, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And this is a lease agreement, right?
A. That's what it says, yes, ma'am.
Q. And it tells you who the landlord is right on top, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And the landlord is Taurus Fund SP, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And then there's a tenant, right?
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3614
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And the tenant is Naok Hina Chi, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And it seems——you tell me, you're the FBI agent——seems like
a standard residential lease agreement, correct?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Okay. Well, it has paragraphs there, correct, Property,
Term, Rent, Initial Deposit, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And the tenant has signed it on the left side, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if we could just go to the
last page.
And just go one page back.
Okay. There we go.
Q. And you see there are just——does it look like a standard
lease agreement to you?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. And what is the date on the document?
A. I can't see which date you're referencing.
Q. Okay. Is this one of the documents you reviewed with
Ms. Murray?
A. I believe so, yes, ma'am.
Q. At that time did you review whether the document was dated
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3615
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
or not?
A. I can't recall.
Q. Did you review the fact that there was no landlord's
initials?
A. I can't recall.
Q. Do you recall if she asked you any follow-up questions if
there was in fact an executed copy found?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Okay. You don't believe she asked you?
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
All right. So Ms. Shroff, ask the question once and
don't ask it again.
Q. She directed you to paragraph 32, correct, of this
document?
A. I believe so.
Q. And that paragraph talks about window guards?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Right? Did you look during your search to see if there was
any follow-up to this window guard being put into place?
A. I did not.
Q. Okay. So when you were reading these paragraphs, you were
simply reading what Ms. Murray asked you to read?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And there was nothing unusual for you about
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3616
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
paragraph 32, correct?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MS. SHROFF: You can take that down, Jorge. Thank you
very much.
Now let's go to——I think it was NJ256.
And if I could just have that brightened up for the
jurors and the witness, please.
Q. You were asked questions about this particular invoice,
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And the focus seemed to be on this crocodile hoodie
leather jacket, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. How about the cashmere mock neck sweater?
THE COURT: Are you asking a question?
MS. SHROFF: Yes, ma'am.
Q. It cost $2,635; is that correct?
A. That's the price listed, yes, ma'am.
Q. Right. And for some reason there's one in blue and then
there's one in red, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And then there's another one, red and blue, correct?
THE COURT: One moment, please.
You may continue.
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3617
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
MS. SHROFF: Thank you.
Q. And on the top there is a peplum biker jacket, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if I could now ask for Z9 to
be pulled up.
Q. I believe that was the video that the government showed
you, correct? Do you recall this video?
A. Was this one the video?
Q. I thought she did show you that video. Do you recall that?
A. I recall a video, yes, ma'am.
Q. Right. And the focus seemed to be on some statue behind
Mr. Guo's head, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. It's a statue of Buddha, correct?
A. I couldn't say.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Could we show her Z9.197.
Now if you could just scroll up. And a little bit
further up.
Q. Okay. And Ms. Murray asked you questions about this
particular video of February 17, 2023, correct?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. It's not what I
asked her about.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. She asked you questions about this document?
MS. MURRAY: No, your Honor, also not this entry.
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3618
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
MS. SHROFF: Then she can say no, your Honor. It's
just a question.
THE COURT: All right. You may answer.
A. I can't recall if it was this specific document or what the
specific question was.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Let's just keep scrolling down.
Q. And let's just look at that photograph, right? She asked
you questions about what is the New Federal State of China,
correct?
A. I don't know if that's what she asked me.
Q. Okay. Let's look at that little icon on the left side, or
my left side, of Mr. Guo's head. On the corner left.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Right. She asked you if you knew what the New Federal
State of China was, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And what does it say right below that?
A. CCP, equal sign with the crossoff, Chinese.
Q. Okay. So even though Mr. Guo has not spoken in the video
that she played you about CCP, you see a note about CCP on that
document itself, or this video itself, correct?
A. I see the note for CCP, yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can zoom out.
If we could show her W183, please.
Q. And do you recall being questioned about this document?
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3619
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
A. I remember reading the title for this document, yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. So why don't we read "The CCP strengthened its rule
by." Could you read from that point onwards.
A. "The CCP strengthened its rule by cleaning up the party
members, arresting those unwilling to be 'Party Slaves' and
reluctant to obey orders. God blesses the NFSC; we lived
through a tough time being sieged by the world's dark forces
and made significant progress."
MS. SHROFF: You can take that down.
If I could go to page 156.
I mean, not page 156, Exhibit NJ156.
Q. Now you were asked several questions about this bookcase,
correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Now if we could just zoom into
that statue that you see.
Q. This bookcase, according to you, appears in several videos
of Miles Guo, correct?
A. It appears to be in the background of the videos, yes,
ma'am.
Q. Right. And the room itself——if you could zoom back
out——shows a camera and other recording equipment over there,
correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And it shows a table where a person who would be doing the
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3620
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
broadcasting would sit, correct?
A. It shows a table, yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if you could zoom a little bit
more outside of the room, just outside of the photograph. If
you could just make——okay.
Q. And none of your work involved learning whether or not more
broadcasts were made from this particular room, correct?
A. Could you rephrase the question.
Q. Sure. Sitting here today, you do not know how many
broadcasts were made from this room, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you don't know if other people broadcast from this
room, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you don't know if there was any other use to this
particular room, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.
Q. Now you were shown photographs of various parts of this
place called Crocker Mansion, correct?
A. Could you repeat that, please.
Q. Sure. You were shown various different vantage points of
this Crocker Mansion place, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you were shown a scale that you made, a drawing that
you made, correct?
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3621
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
A. I did not make the drawing, no, ma'am.
Q. Who made it, by the way?
A. Another search party member for the FBI.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Could I show that to the witness,
please.
Q. And when you were testifying about it, when was the first
time you saw that sketch, this one, NJ358?
A. This piece? Today.
Q. So before today, you'd never seen this document?
A. That's correct.
Q. You'd not seen it when you prepared with Ms. Murray.
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. And when you were testifying about this sketch——if I
could just ask you to look on the left side. Do you see where
it says Ramapo Valley Road on that part?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What does it say right below that?
A. It's not on the——
Q. What does it say?
A. It's still not on the screen, ma'am.
Q. It's on my screen.
MS. SHROFF: Is it on the jurors' screens?
THE JURORS: Yes.
A. It's not showing up for me.
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3622
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
Q. How about now?
A. Now I can see it, yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay.
A. It says, Preparer: Laura Rodia.
Q. No, no. I meant right on the left, all the way on the
left, Ramapo Valley Road, right there. What does it say below
that?
A. Guard House, Parking, Building, Tennis Court.
Q. Okay. What's the guardhouse?
A. A guardhouse.
Q. Were there guards in it? Do you know when you went and
searched the place if the guards were there?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Okay. Well, the house had a lot of security on it,
correct?
A. Could you repeat the question.
Q. Sure. Crocker Mansion had a lot of security on it,
correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. Right. There were cameras everywhere, correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. There were cameras in the rooms themselves, correct?
A. I couldn't recall.
Q. There were cameras in the basement, correct?
A. I couldn't recall.
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3623
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
Q. Well, you were executing a search warrant there, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And it's part of FBI protocol to be aware of all of the
many nuances of the place you're going to search, correct?
A. Can you rephrase the question.
Q. Sure. Isn't it FBI protocol to have like a search plan?
A. It is the protocol to have a plan, yes, ma'am.
Q. Right. And the ERT has a plan, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And part of the plan is to make sure that you know the
place you're going to search, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You want to be aware if there are cameras in the house,
correct?
A. We treat all areas as if there are cameras, ma'am.
Q. I didn't hear that. Could you repeat that for me.
A. It's best practice to always treat areas as if there are
cameras, ma'am.
Q. That wasn't my question, but that's okay. My question was:
It is FBI protocol to make sure you're aware of where cameras
are in the place you're searching, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You want to make sure there are no animals in the place
where you're searching, correct, so a dog doesn't pounce out on
you?
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3624
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And you want to make sure that the people who are
still in the place that you're searching, you know who they
are, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And when you searched this property, were there ex-NYPD
people working there as security guards?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Did you meet somebody named Scott Barnett who was in charge
of security?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you know if anybody on your team met an ex-NYPD officer
named Scott Barnett who was working at the Crocker Mansion?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. Did you make a list or make note of how many people were
working that day?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you make a note of who was in that mansion that day?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you know, sitting here today, who, if anybody, was
arrested in that house that day?
A. I'm not aware.
Q. Do you know, before you executed the search warrant,
whether or not the——you're FBI, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
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3625
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
Q. ——had like a drone circling the house?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. How about if any kind of FBI aviation structure was looking
to see who was in the house that day?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Mr. Guo wasn't in that house that day, correct?
A. I'm not aware.
Q. You just——I won't repeat.
Was anybody else that you've testified about during
your direct and now your cross, do you recall any of those
people being in the home that day?
A. I couldn't say if they were.
Q. How long did you spend doing the search?
A. It was a full, long day, late into the evening.
Q. Right. And before you started the search, you had a
tactical plan meeting, correct?
A. There was a tactical plan meeting, yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you attend it?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Which meeting did you attend?
A. The search meeting.
Q. Okay. And you had a search team meeting so that the search
could be organized, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And at the end of the day, when you had finished your
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3626
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
search, did you have a meeting at the end of the day?
A. I was not present for that.
Q. So you only participated in one meeting on that day.
A. Yes, ma'am. I had to leave early.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can take this down.
Q. Now if I could have you recall the questions Ms. Murray
asked you about this crocodile hoodie jacket. Do you remember
testifying about that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And she showed you the hooded jacket, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And then she showed you the Gettr photo of Mr. Guo in that
jacket, right?
MS. SHROFF: I'm going to be right back.
If I could just show it. Thank you.
Q. She asked you questions about this——I don't know if I
should call it a document or whatever it is, but this, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if we could just zoom out of
this.
Q. And she asked you to read parts of the document, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if we could just scroll down
on this. Actually, if I could just——
Q. You see it says March 7th, 2023?
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3627
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And what does it say right below that?
A. 51st Episode.
Q. Okay. And he's wearing G Fashion in that photograph; is
that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that's the jacket that you testified about and the
dollar amount and the crocodile and the hoodie, correct?
A. It could be.
Q. Well, you tell me. You testified on direct about it, so I
just want to make sure I understand your testimony. Is it or
is it not?
A. I made observations about the jacket. I don't believe we
said this is the exact jacket.
Q. Okay. So sitting here today, you do not know if it's the
exact jacket.
A. It——I couldn't say.
Q. Okay. But it says G Fashion on there, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And as the agent testifying here today, do you by
any chance know if Mr. Guo had a contract with G Fashion?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Do you know if he was the promoter for G Fashion?
A. I couldn't hear your question, ma'am.
Q. Do you know if he was the promoter for G Fashion?
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3628
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Do you know if he got a hundred percent discount for
promoting the ware that he was putting on?
A. I couldn't say.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Well, let's scroll down.
Okay. And the next page.
Next page, please.
Q. Did you read all of this or did you only read for the jury
the portions Ms. Murray picked?
A. I only read what was——I was asked to read.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. How about the next page.
Oh, actually this is the page. Go back up there.
Q. This is where you read, right? "Take a look at this
leather hoodie I'm wearing," right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And she had you read this portion, right; how cute
it would look?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. SHROFF: I'll move to the next paragraph. Could I
have her read the next paragraph?
A. Which paragraph, ma'am?
Q. "We shall cherish."
A. "We shall cherish what we already have. Brothers and
sisters, we do have every reason to feel joyful and proud."
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3629
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross
Q. Keep going.
A. I have to find my place. Sorry.
Q. That's okay.
A. "Is there anyone else who can compare to us? But we also
must love our fellow fighters, for it's our obligation to do
so."
Q. Okay. Do you by any chance know if this document was
translated or it was written in the English language?
A. I couldn't say.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can take that out.
Q. Now, Special Agent Luciano, all told, you testified about,
what would you say, like 120 photographs?
A. I couldn't approximate.
Q. Do you know how many photographs were taken?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. And sitting here today, do you recall how many rooms you
searched?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. It's fair to say it's been more than a year since that
search, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And is it also fair to say that your memory and your
recollection of events was refreshed by Ms. Murray when you met
with her, correct?
A. Not particularly.
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Q. Your memory is still the same after she showed you the
photos as it was before she showed you the photos?
A. I believe so, yes, ma'am.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Thank you very much. I have no
further questions.
THE COURT: Redirect?
MS. MURRAY: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Special Agent Luciano, you were asked questions on
cross-examination about the FBI's search protocols. Do you
recall those?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Was the Mahwah mansion cleared prior to the execution of
the search?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Can you explain for the jury what the process of clearing a
location entails.
A. Sure. So a separate tactical team will go through the
entire expanse of the property, to include the grounds, any
extra buildings, and the entire residence, to make sure that
nothing could hurt or harm anyone that's entering for
searching, and, in addition, will look for things like weapons
that are immediately on the person, anybody who is in the
vicinity of the property or the mansion, and any animals.
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Q. And did that process happen prior to your execution of the
search on March 15, 2023, at the Mahwah mansion?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You were also asked questions about the sketch of the
Mahwah property. Do you recall those?
A. I do.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we please pull up NJ353.
Oh, excuse me, NJ358.
And if we could zoom in on the top left portion. And
this can go to the jury and the gallery as well.
Q. Special Agent Luciano, you recall that Ms. Shroff asked you
about the structure that is indicated below Ramapo Valley Road,
correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What is the street that is listed as coming off of Ramapo
Valley Road on this portion of the sketch?
A. Emma Court.
MS. MURRAY: We can take that down.
Q. And then you were also asked questions about the NFSC on
cross-examination. Do you recall those?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And about G Fashion?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. When you searched the Mahwah mansion on March 15, 2023, did
you see any signs or placards that referenced the NFSC on any
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of the doors within that residence?
A. I couldn't recall.
Q. Did you see any signs or placards referencing the NFSC or G
Fashion next to the doorways of any of the rooms in the Mahwah
residence on that day?
A. I couldn't recall.
MS. MURRAY: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Recross?
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. She asked you about Emma Court, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What's Emma Court?
A. I couldn't say.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Thank you very much. You have a
good day, ma'am.
THE COURT: All righty then. You may step out of the
courtroom.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: And the prosecution may call its next
witness.
MR. HORTON: Government calls Jesse Brown.
(Witness sworn)
THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it. You
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may be seated.
THE WITNESS: Jesse Brown. J-E-S-S-E, B-R-O-W-N.
THE COURT: One moment, please.
You may inquire.
MR. HORTON: Thank you, your Honor.
JESSE BROWN,
called as a witness by the Government,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Brown.
A. Good morning.
Q. What are you doing for work these days?
A. I'm currently working on a new project that uses Solidity
and Ethereum to tokenize our real-world assets.
Q. And do you have any employees on this new project?
A. I do not at this time.
Q. Where do you conduct your work?
A. Out of my home in Flagler Beach, Florida.
Q. Did there come a time you were named the CEO of the
Himalaya Exchange?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And when were you the CEO of the Himalaya Exchange?
A. That would have been sometime in the spring of 2022.
Q. And for how long were you the CEO of the exchange?
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A. I'm sorry. That would have been the spring of 2021.
Q. And for how long were you the CEO of the exchange,
Mr. Brown?
A. Till I resigned in the——in January of 2023.
MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you please publish what's
in evidence as GX 113.
Q. Mr. Brown, who is in this image?
A. That is me.
Q. And were you CEO of the exchange when this image was taken?
A. I was.
Q. As CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, how many people
reported to you?
A. Zero.
Q. And as CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, what were you in
control of?
A. I was in control of nothing at that.
Q. Who appointed you CEO of the Himalaya Exchange?
A. That would have been William Je.
MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you pull up what's in
evidence as GX 103.
Can you publish it, please.
Q. Mr. Brown, who is this?
A. That is William Je.
Q. As CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, who was your
boss?
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A. That would have been William Je.
MR. HORTON: You can take that down, please,
Ms. Loftus.
Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything, happened on March 15, 2023?
A. On March 15th, my house was surrounded, and the FBI came
and took my personal devices, my work devices, and also
documents from my home.
THE COURT: Sir, if you would speak into the
microphone so that everyone can hear you. Bring it closer to
you if you want, but speak right into it.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
Q. Mr. Brown, did the FBI have a search warrant when they came
to your home that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you arrested?
A. I was not.
Q. Did you get a lawyer after that?
A. I did.
Q. And after you got a lawyer, did you meet with the
government?
A. I did.
Q. About how many times did you meet with the government?
A. Four or five times.
Q. Mr. Brown, are you testifying today pursuant to an
agreement?
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A. I am.
Q. And what's your understanding of what that agreement means?
A. The agreement means I will not be prosecuted for anything
that I did with Guo Media, GTV, Himalaya Exchange, or a
mortgage application that I applied for.
Q. When you say a mortgage application, what happened with
that mortgage application?
A. That was a stated income application in 2007.
Q. Why is that mortgage application part of your agreement
with the government?
A. Because I——I misrepresented my income.
Q. And what are your obligations under this agreement,
Mr. Brown?
A. My obligations are to tell the truth at all times, to
provide documentation when asked, and to provide availability
as well.
Q. And what's your understanding, Mr. Brown, about whether the
nonprosecution agreement protects you from prosecution for
conduct other than in connection with the Himalaya Exchange or
with the 2007 mortgage application that you mentioned?
A. It does not protect me.
Q. And what is your understanding as to whether the
nonprosecution agreement protects you from a prosecution for
perjury, obstruction of justice, or making false statements if
you lie on the stand today?
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A. It does not. It does not. It would be voided under those
circumstances.
Q. If you were to lie here, could the government tear up your
nonprosecution agreement?
A. They could.
Q. Could you then be charged for your past conduct?
A. I could.
Q. Could the statements you made in your meetings with the
government be used against you?
A. They could.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Is this his understanding?
THE COURT: As to what you understand the agreement to
mean.
You may continue.
Q. That's right, Mr. Brown. Do you understand that if you
were to lie here, the statements that you previously made to
the government could be used against you?
A. I do understand.
Q. Aside from this nonprosecution agreement, Mr. Brown, were
you made any other promises by the government?
A. I was not.
Q. I want to turn your attention now back to the Himalaya
Exchange.
What month and year did you interview for that job?
A. That would have been June of 2020.
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Q. And how many interviews did you have?
A. I had two interviews.
Q. Who interviewed you the first time?
A. The first time was Yvette Wang and a gentleman named Joe.
Q. And what company did you understand you were interviewing
with when you were interviewed by Yvette Wang and Joe?
A. GTV and Guo Media.
Q. Where did you do this interview from?
A. I did it from my home in Florida.
Q. And where was Yvette interviewing you from?
A. New York City.
Q. What, if anything, did you know about Guo Media or GTV at
that first job interview?
A. I didn't really know that much for the first interview.
Q. And after Yvette Wang, who interviewed you next?
A. That would have been William Je.
Q. Where did you do that interview with William Je?
A. I actually did that interview from my late mother's home,
via videoconference.
Q. After your interview with William Je, did you get a job
offer, Mr. Brown?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to show you what's marked as Government
Exhibit 3419.
What is this document, Mr. Brown?
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A. This was my offer of employment.
MR. HORTON: Government offers GX 3419.
MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 3419 received in evidence)
MR. HORTON: If you could please publish it,
Ms. Loftus.
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Mr. Brown, what company did your job offer come from?
A. GTV Media Group.
Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have about what the
G in GTV stood for?
A. My understanding——
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. At the time?
THE COURT: Yes, at the time.
A. My understanding was that it was a——it was Miles Guo.
Q. And who controlled GTV, as you understood it?
A. Miles Guo.
Q. When is this offer letter dated, Mr. Brown?
A. June 17, 2020.
Q. And when did you start to work on this job for GTV?
A. That would have been that week.
Q. When you got this job offer from GTV, Mr. Brown, at that
time what, if anything, did you know about the Himalaya
Exchange?
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A. I didn't know a lot about the Himalaya Exchange.
Q. When you took this job offer, June 2020, Mr. Brown, what
did you understand that you were being hired to do?
A. I understood that I was being hired to help launch and
create cryptocurrency as well as work to build out or develop
an exchange.
Q. And when you were hired for that by GTV, what did you
understand the name of the cryptocurrency was you were hired to
help launch?
A. The cryptocurrencies at that point were branded G Coin and
G Dollar.
Q. And what was your understanding as to why they were called
G Coin and G Dollar?
A. I believed it was for Miles Guo.
Q. As you understood it, Mr. Brown, was there any relationship
between the cryptocurrency projects you were hired on for GTV
and any other Miles Guo companies?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that relationship?
A. The relationship was to work with some of the entities for
Miles Guo in the ecosystem.
Q. And when you say the ecosystem, what are you referring to?
A. I'm referring to entities that would have accepted or
transferred the cryptocurrencies.
Q. And besides the Miles Guo companies, what other companies
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were part of that Himalaya Exchange ecosystem?
A. There were no others.
MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, if you could zoom in on
paragraph 1 of this document, Position and Start Date.
Q. Mr. Brown, this document says you would be reporting to Joe
Wang, Chief Tech Officer, and Yvette Wang, Director, at our New
York City office. After you took this job, did you report to
Yvette Wang?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you report to Miles Guo?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you report to Joe Wang?
A. I did not.
Q. Who did you report to?
A. I reported to William Je.
MR. HORTON: We can take this down, please,
Ms. Loftus.
Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything, did you understand was the
relationship between William Je and Miles Guo?
A. I wasn't really privy to the relationship, but I knew that
they spoke frequently.
Q. How did you know that?
A. From——from meetings we had with——with the company and
William stating that.
Q. When you say "meetings we had with the company," what did
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you learn at those meetings?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to the hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
Q. When you say meetings at the company, what did you learn at
those meetings about the relationship between William Je and
Miles Guo?
A. Well, there were several times his name was mentioned and
talking about his entities and——and then also about
certain——certain——certain initiatives that we had with his
companies.
Q. And when you say "initiatives that we had with his
companies," who's "we"?
A. Himalaya Exchange.
Q. And what were the initiatives that the Himalaya Exchange
had with Miles Guo's companies?
A. The idea was to work with G Fashion, G|CLUBS, and these
other entities with the cryptocurrency.
Q. After you were hired by GTV, what was your understanding of
why you were reporting to William Je?
A. Because William Je was launching the coins. He was
involved in the——in issuing and launching the coins.
Q. You accepted a job offer with GTV. Was reporting to
William Je a different job or part of that same job?
A. I saw it as part of the same job.
Q. Mr. Brown, what was Hamilton Investment Management?
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A. That was a fund from London that William Je also managed.
Q. And when you were interviewing for the GTV cryptocurrency
job, what, if anything, were you told at that time about
Hamilton?
A. Nothing when I interviewed.
Q. And when did you hear about Hamilton?
A. Later on when I was hired.
Q. Who did you hear about Hamilton from?
A. William Je.
Q. And what did you understand Hamilton did?
A. Hamilton was an investment fund.
Q. And why were you being told about it when you were working
for William Je and GTV on a cryptocurrency project?
A. The fund was going to be part of the——of the ecosystem as
well, and the fund was going to work with the exchange.
Q. When you say the fund, the Hamilton Fund was going to work
with the Himalaya Exchange, what do you mean by that?
A. Well, the——what they did is, the fund, people in the fund
were allowed access to the——to the——to the coins.
Q. Mr. Brown, taking a step back, when you worked for the
Himalaya Exchange, how were you paid?
A. I was——
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Time frame.
THE COURT: Would you couch it in a certain time
frame.
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MR. HORTON: Sure.
Q. Mr. Brown, how long did you work for the Himalaya Exchange?
A. Two and a half years, approximately.
Q. During those two and a half years, how were you paid for
your work?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Time frame.
A. The first——
THE COURT: From when until when?
Q. Well, were there different ways that you were paid for your
work, Mr. Brown?
A. There were.
Q. Can you explain what those were.
THE COURT: It's the start of the work.
MR. HORTON: Sure.
Q. Starting at the time you joined——
THE COURT: What year was that?
THE WITNESS: The year I joined was 2020.
Q. And how were you first paid for your work?
A. I was first paid by Guo——Guo Media, and GTV.
Q. And what was the form of payment?
A. It was——I was paid biweekly.
Q. You said there was more than one way you were paid. What
happened? How were you paid after Guo Media?
A. I was——I was let go by Guo Media at the end of the year,
and I went onto the books of the London entity, Hamilton.
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Q. And how were you paid from the books of the London entity
Hamilton?
A. I was wired money into my business account.
Q. You said you were let go. What else, if anything, changed
besides the way you were paid?
A. I lost my health insurance.
Q. And other than the entity paying you and your health
insurance benefits, what, if anything, changed about your work
when you were paid by Hamilton instead of Guo Media?
A. Nothing changed.
Q. Did you have colleagues at the Himalaya Exchange,
Mr. Brown?
A. Yes.
Q. Who employed your colleagues at the exchange?
A. The Hamilton Group.
Q. When you were reporting to William Je, where was he based?
A. London.
Q. And where were you working when you were reporting to him?
A. Florida.
Q. Where in Florida?
A. Flagler Beach.
Q. What kind of office were you working in?
A. My home office.
Q. How long did you spend reporting——withdrawn.
How long did you report to William Je at the Himalaya
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Exchange?
A. Until my resignation in January of 2023.
Q. And how long a period was that, Mr. Brown?
A. That would have been two and a half years.
Q. During those two and a half years reporting to him, when,
if ever, did you meet William Je?
A. I did not meet William Je.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Can we define "meet." In
person?
THE COURT: Are you speaking about an in-person
meeting?
MR. HORTON: I can ask a few different questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Mr. Brown, during your two and a half years reporting to
William Je, did you ever meet him in person?
A. I did not.
Q. How did you communicate with the people you were working
with at the exchange from your home in Florida?
A. We had daily meetings in the mornings.
Q. And how often, if ever, was William Je in those meetings?
A. Pretty much every day.
Q. You say daily meetings. What form did they take?
A. They were videoconferences for me and for another employee
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in Australia, but they were in person for everyone else in
London.
Q. Were there any other Himalaya Exchange employees in
Florida, Mr. Brown?
A. There were not.
Q. Who led these video meetings that you participated in?
A. That would be William Je.
Q. And where would he sit in these meetings?
A. He would sit at the end of a long table. There were——there
were two screens. I was on one screen, the compliance manager
from Australia was on another. And then the stakeholders would
sit next to each other, and William would be at the end of the
bench.
Q. Could you just keep the microphone close to your mouth.
A. Oh.
Q. Just pull it closer to you so you don't have to lean
forward.
You said the stakeholders were in the meeting.
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that?
A. The stakeholders would be the chief security officer, the
chief financial officer, the chief marketing officer, and
internal auditor.
Q. Those executives you just mentioned, where did they work?
A. They worked for Hamilton.
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Q. And where in the world did they work?
A. London.
Q. Did you ever meet any of them in person?
A. I did not.
Q. At the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, what were country
heads?
A. Country heads were people who were helping market the coin.
Q. And who selected the country heads?
A. I'm not sure of that.
Q. How did you know who the country heads were?
A. They were spoken about during these meetings.
Q. And who spoke about the country heads in the Himalaya
Exchange meetings?
A. That would have been William Je.
Q. You said the country heads were to market the exchange.
What did that mean?
A. Well, they would——they would go out and seek people to
participate in the private sale.
Q. Who directed the country heads at the Himalaya Exchange?
A. That would be William Je.
Q. Mr. Brown, what are farms?
A. I'm not——I'm not sure of that.
Q. What's the Himalaya Farm Alliance?
A. I have no——I have no——I don't know what that is.
Q. When did you first learn about something called H Coin and
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H Dollar?
A. Pretty much my first day.
Q. And other than the names, Mr. Brown, what, if anything, was
the difference between G Dollar and G Coin on one hand and H
Dollar and H Coin on the other hand?
A. There was no difference.
Q. And focusing on the time period when you were hired in
mid-2020, what did you understand you were hired to do?
A. I understood I was hired to help with the creation of the
coins.
Q. And who were you doing that work for? Who were you
creating the coins for?
A. That would have been Guo Media.
Q. And what did you understand that to mean, hired to create a
coin?
A. Well, it——typically, in the——in the crypto industry, there
are certain things you do to develop and issue a coin.
Q. And what are those things?
A. Well, there's——there's the tech development on the Ethereum
blockchain was what we were looking at, and then also writing
white papers and raising awareness.
Q. And what's a white paper?
A. A white paper is typically a document that you would——that
you would release for a crypto that would talk about its
utility, the team that's building it, and, you know, some
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things you're going to be doing with a roadmap in the future.
Q. You said you were looking at the Ethereum blockchain.
First of all, what's the Ethereum blockchain?
A. Well, the Ethereum blockchain is one of the most used
blockchains. It's something that you can, you know, develop
and create coins on top of.
Q. And what does it mean to create a coin on top of the
Ethereum blockchain?
A. Well, Bitcoin is its own blockchain, and it's a little bit
different. Ethereum allows developers to actually build coins
on top of it through smart contracts.
Q. Bitcoin and Ethereum, are these public launchings?
Actually, withdrawn. Let me step back one step.
When you say blockchain, what do you mean?
A. Well, a blockchain is a publicly distributed ledger that
shows all the transactions for that ledger.
Q. And what do you mean by a public distributed ledger?
A. Well, it's a——it's a ledger where typically there are what
are called nodes in the system, so those are computers that
approve or disapprove transactions.
Q. Are all blockchains public?
A. They are.
Q. Is there such as thing as a private blockchain?
A. There are private blockchains, but the——but the data is
still made public to the members of that consortium.
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Q. You said the exchange when you joined was looking at the
Ethereum blockchain. But what do you mean by they were looking
at it?
A. Well, we were looking at using Quorum for it at that point.
Q. And what's Quorum?
A. Quorum is a JPMorgan product that allows for——for, like I
was talking about, a private consortium to use a blockchain.
Q. And what, if anything, did you understand when you first
started working on this project about whether the coins would
be on a public blockchain or a private blockchain?
A. I understood that they were going to be on a private
blockchain or something like Quorum, where members would be
able to participate in it.
Q. And why did you have that understanding?
A. Well, because that's really how——the only way that crypto
works.
Q. What do you mean it's the only way that crypto works?
A. Well——well, crypto has to be——it's a——it's something that
is a public chain, so——so it's——everything is——is able to be
viewed or seen by——by anyone who has——
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, objection.
A. ——online access.
MR. SCHIRICK: Could we have a brief sidebar on this,
please.
THE COURT: All righty.
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(At the sidebar)
MR. SCHIRICK: So I'm going to raise an objection.
It's the same objection that we raised with respect to
Mr. Roberts's testimony, from a week ago. We're veering into
what is expert testimony here. I understand that Mr. Brown has
held roles in the crypto and blockchain industry, just the same
way Mr. Roberts held roles in the crypto and blockchain
industry. But he's not been noticed as an expert, he's not
been qualified as an expert, and to have him testify on, you
know, general topics which is now I think, if you review the
transcript, veering into opinion testimony as to what his view
is of the way that crypto works and blockchain works. . . Now
the question may have not been put that way. Mr. Horton was
careful not to use the word "view" or "opinion." But the
answer was opinion.
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, this is heartland 701
testimony. He was hired——first of all, the context is, he was
hired by an agent, one of the charged co-conspirators in the
scheme. He was hired by GTV Media in the first instance and
then reported to an agent who is a charged conspirator to carry
out the conspiracy. Was an insider. He's very different from
Mr. Roberts, who is approaching this from the outside and who
had a limited several-month investigation from the outside of
this. Mr. Brown was inside for two and a half years, and he's
being asked questions about, when you were hired by the
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co-conspirators, about people who reported to the defendant.
What did you understand you were being hired to do? When you
say you were hired to do something on the blockchain, what did
that mean to you at the time? That's the only way he can give
the jury context about what he personally observed in realtime
as an insider of the conspiracy.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we can look at the
transcript. I may be wrong, but I believe the witness answered
the question about what he believed he was hired to do, and
then the next question veered into——it may not have been the
questioner's fault, but the answer veered into generally that
area.
THE COURT: Would you read back the last question and
answer.
(Record read)
MR. SCHIRICK: And that's the essence of the generic
question about how the thing works, which is improper.
THE COURT: He's hired to create this crypto exchange,
and so it would be odd not to have him discuss his
understanding of what he had to do.
MR. SCHIRICK: Well, it's one thing, again, if he's
discussing his understanding in the context of what he was
hired to do. I understand that point, your Honor. But I
think, you know, that answer is a more generic answer, a more
sweeping answer. And again, we're just trying to police the
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line here between expert testimony, and we're raising the
objection. It has nothing to do with whether there's a
co-conspirator exception or whether there's a hearsay
objection. So the fact that, you know, he worked for the
Himalaya Exchange, reported to William Je, really is of no
moment. It's just the answer that's been given, or was in the
process of being given, I think veers towards expert testimony.
THE COURT: So just how far do you expect to go?
MR. HORTON: So he was the CEO of the Himalaya
Exchange, cryptocurrency exchange for two and a half years. He
experienced the projects that were being represented to the
world as cryptocurrency projects. His testimony is about what
the projects actually were, from his perspective, in realtime,
as the CEO. And so to the extent that he mentions a term like
blockchain, Quorum, or something that the jury is not going to
know, I think it's fair to ask him, as an insider of the
conspiracy, what did it mean in the conspiracy at the time?
What did you understand it to mean? If there's a discrepancy,
why?
THE COURT: So you expect that he will say that what
was created was inconsistent with what he expected?
MR. HORTON: Yeah.
THE COURT: That's fine.
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(In open court)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, it's 11:30, so we'll
take our half-hour break now.
Remember, do not discuss the case amongst yourselves
or with anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case
in your presence. Don't read, listen to, or watch anything
from any source that touches upon the subject matter of this
case.
And sir, you may step out of the courtroom. Don't
discuss your testimony.
(Jury not present)
(Witness not present)
THE COURT: Is there anything before we return at
noon?
MR. HORTON: Not from the government.
MR. SCHIRICK: Not from the defense, your Honor.
(Recess)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
12:00 p.m.
THE COURT: Please bring the jurors in.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Remember, sir, that you're under oath.
You may continue the inquiry.
MR. HORTON: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Mr. Brown, before the break you were discussing your
understanding of the cryptocurrency and exchange project you
were hired for. What did you understand about whether the
coins you were hired to work on would be on a public blockchain
or a private blockchain?
A. I understood that they would be on a public blockchain.
Q. What, if anything, did you understand the role -- before
the break you mention something called Quorum. Can you remind
the jury what Quorum is?
A. Quorum is a JPMorgan open source blockchain that is an
enterprise chain for ethereum.
Q. Is quorum a public blockchain or a private blockchain?
A. It's a private blockchain.
Q. And when you were hired to work on the cryptocurrency
project for GTV, what understanding, if any, did you have about
the role that the Quorum blockchain would have in this project?
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A. I understood that it would be the chain that the coins
would be distributed on and transferred and traded on.
Q. Now, Mr. Brown, in your two and a half years with the
Himalaya Exchange, when, if ever, could customers buy H Coin on
a blockchain?
A. Never.
Q. And when, if ever, could customers buy H Dollar on a
blockchain?
A. Never.
Q. Was that what you were expecting when you took this job in
2020?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
A. It was not.
Q. What were you expecting about the type of coin you
developed?
A. I was expecting something that would be built on top of the
Quorum chain and something that would be what a typical crypto
would be.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Are you saying what you expected it to be?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. You said you were expecting it to be what a typical crypto
would be, how is what you actually observed at the exchange
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different from what you'd expected typical crypto to be?
A. The exchange used just a database. It wasn't a blockchain.
Q. And what was the database you're talking about? What does
that mean?
A. Well, a database is a typical tech tool where data is
stored and accessed by computers.
Q. And what was the name of the database that the Himalaya
Exchange was using?
A. It was Posgrest I believe.
Q. Can you spell that.
A. P-O-S-G-R-E-S-T, I believe.
Q. And this database, how does it compare to a spreadsheet?
A. It's typical to a spreadsheet only it would allow, not only
structured data, but unstructured data.
Q. Was this database on the blockchain?
A. It was not.
Q. Where was it if it wasn't on the blockchain?
A. It was controlled by the Exchange and the technology team
there.
Q. As CEO of the Exchange, did you have access to this
internal database?
A. I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. I wasn't allowed access to any of the technology that they
were building in London.
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Q. What do you mean that you weren't allowed access to any of
the technology that the Exchange was building?
A. There was only a small group of people in London that had
access for security reasons.
Q. Did you ever ask William Je why you didn't have access to
the Exchange's internal database as its CEO?
A. I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. I just felt as though the chief security officer and the
chief operations officer were the ones really managing that.
Q. If customer couldn't buy H Coin on the blockchain, what
could they buy from the Exchange?
A. They could buy credits.
Q. And when you were hired to work on this GTV cryptocurrency
project, were you told about credits then?
A. No, I was not.
Q. What were credits at the Himalaya Exchange?
A. Credits were when people would join the exchange, they
would buy certain credits with U.S. dollar that they had
deposited into their accounts and then they would receive
credits for the crypto.
Q. And what were the name of the credits at the Himalaya
Exchange?
A. The names of the credits, could you repeat that?
Q. Sure. What were the names of the credits that people could
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buy at the Himalaya Exchange, what were they called?
A. Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin.
Q. And were Himalaya Dollar credits and Himalaya Coin credits
the same or different from Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin?
A. They were different.
Q. How were they different?
A. The Himalaya Dollar was a stable coin which was backed.
For every Himalaya Dollar, it was to be backed by a U.S. dollar
in a bank account.
Q. And how was the Himalaya Dollar credit different from the
Himalaya Dollar stable coin?
A. It was not.
Q. It was not the same you said?
A. No, it was the same.
Q. It was the same?
A. Yes.
Q. When somebody bought a Himalaya Dollar credit, were they
actually buying a Himalaya Dollar?
A. They were buying credits to the dollar, not the actual
dollar itself.
Q. And where were these credits, Himalaya Dollar credit,
Himalaya Coin credit, where were they stored?
A. They would have been stored on the database I believe.
Q. Could customers buy Himalaya Coin credits and Himalaya
Dollar credits on the blockchain?
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A. They could not.
Q. In your understanding at the time as the CEO of the
Exchange, were these credits cryptocurrency?
A. No, they were not.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. In your understanding, Mr. Brown, at the time as the CEO of
the Himalaya Exchange, were these credits cryptocurrencies?
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
THE COURT: He answered that question.
MR. HORTON: I'm sorry, your Honor. I wasn't sure if
the jury heard the answer.
A. Could you repeat it.
THE COURT: No. He answered the question. He did.
Q. Who did you first hear about the credits from?
A. I first heard about the credits from William Je in a
meeting, team meeting.
Q. And, Mr. Brown, what did William Je say about the credits
in this meeting?
A. He spoke to them as if they were like an amusement park
credits where you pay for tickets and cash them out when you
left the park.
Q. What did you think when you heard William Je describe the
credits that way?
A. Somewhat amusing.
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Q. What was amusing about it to you?
A. It just kind of flies in the face of a cryptocurrency,
right --
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
Q. Mr. Brown, what do you mean that the credits at the
Himalaya Exchange fly in the face of a cryptocurrency?
A. Well, what cryptocurrency is about, it's about a public
chain where transactions are viewed to for everyone. And
everything that goes on, on that chain people have access to.
This wasn't anything like that.
Q. Why weren't the credits anything like that?
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sir, you're speaking based upon your
personal understanding. Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. Mr. Brown, why as the former CEO of the Himalaya Exchange,
why in your view, why in your understanding, were the credits
at the Exchange nothing like the cryptocurrencies you've just
described?
A. Because the credits were obfuscated. They weren't public
knowledge like a public blockchain were or like a private chain
would be for all the consortium members.
Q. You said earlier that you helped draft white papers at the
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Exchange?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were these white papers published?
A. They were published on the Himalaya Exchange website.
Q. Were they available for the public?
A. They were.
Q. Did these white papers discuss HCN and HDO credits?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did you ask William Je questions about why the exchange was
using credits instead of cryptocurrencies on the blockchain?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you ask him?
A. I asked him why we were using this model as opposed to just
issuing the coins on the chain.
Q. And what did William Je say when you asked him why the
Exchange wasn't issuing credits on the blockchain?
A. At that point we were looking for a place to issue the coin
and the British Virgin Islands was a jurisdiction that they
picked. And that at this point legal counsel in the British
Virgin Islands suggested this.
Q. Mr. Brown, you were at the Exchange for two and a half
years. At any time during your time there were H Coin and H
Dollar able to be bought or sold on the blockchain?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Asked and answered. You don't need to
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answer.
Q. Mr. Brown, if you thought that these credits were not
cryptocurrencies, why didn't you leave your job?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I kept my job for my paycheck.
Q. When you worked at the Exchange at that time, did you
believe it was a legitimate business?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Did you believe you were committing crimes when you worked
there?
A. I didn't, no.
Q. And remind the jury when did you leave the Exchange?
A. January of 2023.
Q. By the way, Mr. Brown, was G/Club a client of the Himalaya
Exchange when you were there?
A. They were.
Q. And what did G/Club use the Exchange for?
A. I believe it was for the money transfer for the purchase of
the G/Club memberships.
Q. And did you understand what that meant at the time?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you ask William Je what it meant?
A. I did not.
Q. In general, Mr. Brown, what was your understanding of how
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William Je treated your views and opinions?
A. You know, I think because I was in Florida, I wasn't able
to get in his ear as much as a lot of the people in London
were, so most of my concepts or strategies or ideas never
really made it to fruition.
Q. And how, if at all, did that effect your experience being
the CEO of the Exchange that William Je -- that your ideas
didn't take fruition?
MR. SCHIRICK: Object to form.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I just felt like I was kind of a strawman, like the face of
the company. I didn't really have any say in anything that
went on.
Q. Why did you feel like a strawman? What do you mean by
that?
MR. SCHIRICK: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: You may explain what strawman means.
A. Strawman is someone who is, they don't really have any say
in the decision making, right. They're just kind of the face
of it but don't really have any input into the decisions.
Q. What understanding, if any, Mr. Brown, did you have about
why the Exchange wanted you to be its face?
A. I think part of it was I was willing to move to the BVI,
and I think part of it too was my experience at DTCC and at
Ford working with blockchain there.
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Q. And did you feel like you were able to bring that
experience to bear when you were working at the Exchange?
A. Not at all.
Q. You said you were willing to move to the BVI, did you
ultimately move there?
A. I never did make it there.
Q. Did you spend time at the BVI for the Exchange?
A. I did.
Q. And what were you doing there for the Exchange?
A. Part of the time was spent seeking out an office space.
Other time was spent talking to telecom providers about a
potential data room, and then other times I was working with a
sandbox application there as well.
Q. And did the Exchange ever get a property in the BVI?
A. We did not.
Q. Did it ever get a data room in the BVI?
A. It did not.
Q. What happened to the sandbox application?
A. Denied.
Q. What is a sandbox application?
A. A sandbox application is an application where you apply for
an exchange license, but you're placed in a sandbox kind of as
a test period to see if everything will be compliant and
everything you do with your company will meet their guidelines.
Q. Was that's the application that was denied?
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A. That was.
Q. How many hours a day were you working on Exchange projects
down in the BVI?
A. Probably about three or four hours.
Q. How did that compare to the amount of day you were spending
on Exchange work back in Florida?
A. It was about the same.
Q. Did you like being in the BVI?
A. I did.
Q. Other than three hours a day working for the Exchange, what
did you do down there?
A. I surfed.
Q. What was your title when you were hired in 2020, Mr. Brown?
A. Associate blockchain manager I believe.
Q. Did you seek out -- did there come a time that you sought
out the title of CEO?
A. No.
Q. How did you find out you'd been named the CEO?
A. During one of our stakeholder meetings William appointed me
CEO.
Q. Before that happened in the meeting, did you know it was
going to happen?
A. I did not.
Q. Was it on the agenda for that meeting?
A. It was not.
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Q. What was your reaction when you heard William say that you
were their CEO?
A. I was pretty surprised.
Q. Why were you surprised?
A. I don't consider myself CEO material.
Q. Why do you mean by that? Why aren't you CEO material?
A. Well, I'm a terrible public speaker. I don't really
understand all the dynamics that go with being a chief
executive. I'm a tech guy.
Q. Had you ever been a CEO before that?
A. I had not.
Q. Did you ever lead an organization?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything, about the work you were doing
change after you were named CEO?
A. I guess I was involved more in the marketing side.
Q. What did that entail being involved in more of the
Exchange's marketing side?
A. It meant doing some video sessions and doing some
interviews that were given to me by the marketing team.
Q. What do you mean that interviews were given to you by the
marketing team?
A. They would decide who I would talk to and when. They would
set the agendas.
Q. And what kinds of things would you talk about in these
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interviews?
A. Talk about the Exchange, the coin, technologies that were
used.
Q. Did you have an understanding of why the Exchange wanted
you to do public interviews?
A. No. Like I said, I'm terrible at them.
Q. Did you ever ask William Je why you're asking me to do
this?
A. No, I just considered it something that I had to do.
Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything happened with the Exchange in
November 2021?
A. That's when we had the official launch.
Q. What do you mean by the official launch?
A. The Exchange -- prior to the launch, there was a private
sale for the HCN coins or for the H Dollar coins. People were
topped up to buy H Dollar. And then when the Exchange launched
would be the first time people could buy these coins.
Q. The private sale you referred to, were people buying H
Coins or H Coin credits?
A. They were buying H Coin credits.
Q. Were they buying H Dollars or H Dollar credits?
A. They were buying H Dollar credits.
Q. When you say building up to the launch, what do you mean
building up to the launch?
A. There was a presale where a $100 million was raised before
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the launch of the Exchange?
Q. What was the date of the launch?
A. November 1, 2021.
Q. What's your understanding of why that date was chosen for
the launch?
A. My understanding was, it was a drop dead day issued by
Miles Guo.
Q. How do you have that understanding?
A. Well, we had really struggled to launch the Exchange. It
was scheduled to launch several times previously in the
previous months, and every time we failed, and there was a time
where that was it. We had to launch the exchange on November 1
come hell or high water.
Q. Did Miles Guo have a title at the Exchange?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Did he participate in those daily video meetings with
William Je?
A. No.
Q. What is your understanding of how that drop dead launch
date came from Miles Guo?
A. It was from some conversation that I had after with some
team members and then also --
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to the hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
Q. Mr. Brown, the question was how do you have the
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understanding that Miles Guo gave you instruction for the
Exchange to launch on November of 2021?
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, can we have a brief sidebar
on this, please.
THE COURT: All right.
(Continued on next page)
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(At the sidebar)
THE COURT: Mr. Horton, do you expect that he is going
to say that the people he was speaking with were part of the
alleged conspiracy?
MR. HORTON: Yes. What he's going to say is that what
the people working with William Je at the Himalaya Exchange
telling him what the Exchange is doing for Miles Guo.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, the question is, how far
does this co-conspirator exception goes, and to what extent
does the government have to build up. As we understood the
Court's opinion to require specific statements from specific
people that can be relaid as hearsay under the exception.
Right now, we don't even know who he's talking about. He's
just talking about people at the Exchange, right. So is every
person -- we understood the Court's ruling pretrial to be that
there was no blanket exception under which hearsay would be
permitted. Just because someone used, of the various entities
here, had conversation with witnesses. And right now that's
where we're at.
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, there is now in evidence
minutes if not hours of the defendant talking about G Dollar,
G Coin, H Dollar, H Coin, the Exchange, video of him saying
that. William Je's testimony. William Je was running that
project. He's charged as a co-conspirator. The information
Mr. Brown was getting was from people who worked directly for
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William Je at the Himalaya Exchange which is instrumentality in
this Rico conspiracy telling him what was going on.
MR. SCHIRICK: There's a difference, your Honor,
between saying that William Je said something that this witness
will identify and saying unidentified views of people who
worked for Mr. Je.
MR. HORTON: There's a co-conspirator exception.
There's also an agent exception. They worked together. He's
the principal and he's speaking on behalf of a co-conspirator.
That comes in.
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to let it in. I've
ruled.
(Continued on next page)
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(In open court; jury present)
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Mr. Brown, the question was how did you understand that it
was Miles Guo who gave the instruction for the Exchange to
launch on November 1, 2021?
A. After having some conversations with some colleagues after
the launch and then also during the launch, GTV had a big
presentation going on at the time.
Q. And what role, if any, did you have in GTV's presentation
on the launch day of the Himalaya Exchange?
A. I was to speak live as soon as the launch, as soon as the
Exchange was launched.
Q. And where did you get that assignment from?
A. I got that assignment from William Je.
Q. We'll come back to that in a second.
Were you CEO on the day of the launch?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you CEO in the days running up to the launch?
A. Yes.
Q. In your view was the Exchange ready to launch?
A. It was not.
Q. Why was it not ready to launch?
A. We had struggled so long with the technology. I had a lot
of talks with the technology leaders and they felt the same
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way.
Q. And you said struggle with the technology, what does that
mean?
A. It means we weren't able to deliver on time. At the time
there was the pandemic. It was hard to get really talented
blockchain developers, and we just really didn't have the skill
set or the means to deliver on time.
Q. What time on November 1, 2021, was the Exchange suppose to
launch?
A. I believe it was nine or ten in the morning.
Q. And what time did it launch?
A. Eleven at night.
Q. And why is that?
A. Because it wasn't ready. And from my understanding from
conversations, one developer kind of put together the Exchange
quickly in that time to launch.
Q. How did that happen?
How did it happen that one developer put the Exchange
together quickly?
A. He was just kind of like the top superman developer I guess
that was there and he took matters into his own hands.
Q. Mr. Brown, after the Exchange launched that day, at this
point were customers able to buy H Coin on the blockchain?
A. No.
Q. Were customers able after the launch to buy H Dollar on the
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blockchain?
A. No.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
A. No.
Q. You said that there was a long broadcast on GTV on launch
day, did you participate in it?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you film your interview from?
A. My office in Florida.
Q. The people interviewing you on GTV, do you know where they
were broadcasting from?
A. I do not.
Q. What were you -- can you sort of walk the jury through that
day, what was it like for you?
A. Well, it was stressful. I was supposed to talk at ten.
I'm not great at public speaking, so I was a little nervous. I
didn't think the tech would be ready, and then it just dragged
on for hours and hours and hours which led to more anxiety.
Q. And what specifically were you asked to do on GTV that day,
launch day?
A. I believe just to be interviewed.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can you please pull up what's been marked as
GX3401, just for the witness, please. Then with the sound off,
Ms. Loftus, if you could please scroll through it for the
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witness, please. Mr. Brown, what is this?
A. This would be my interview during the launch day.
MR. HORTON: Government offers GX-3401.
MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 3401 received in evidence)
Q. Can you please publish this, Ms. Loftus, and if you could
take it to the one minute and 45 second mark and play that with
sound for the room.
(Media played)
Q. Mr. Brown, you said we suffered some delays, but we wanted
to make sure we did it right, and I think we have.
Do you think the Exchange had gotten it right that
day?
A. No.
Q. Why did you say that on GTV?
A. For fear of disrupting the whole launch.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can we go to the 2:45 mark, please.
(Media played)
Q. Mr. Brown, the question you were asked was what are the
advantages of H Coin compared to other crypto like Bitcoin.
When you were asked that question on GTV, was H Coin a
cryptocurrency like Bitcoin?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
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A. It was not.
Q. Why not?
A. It wasn't on the blockchain.
Q. In your answer on the video, you said we have this
permissioned chain that we use, what were you referring to by
permissioned chain?
A. Quorum.
Q. And were customers able to buy H Coin or H Dollar using
Quorum on the date of this interview?
A. They were not.
Q. Were your answers in this interview truthful, Mr. Brown?
A. They were not.
Q. Why did you lie in these interviews?
A. Again, I was fearful of causing a major selloff during the
launch of the coin, and I was kind of toeing the company line
on what to say during these events.
Q. And what do you mean by the company line?
A. Well, there were certain talk points that, you know, we
were to discuss at all times, and one of those was the Quorum
chain.
Q. And where did you get your understanding of what the
talking points were to be?
A. That would have been from the legal team and from the
marketing team as well.
Q. And legal and marketing at the Exchange, who did they
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report to?
A. William Je.
Q. Mr. Brown, was this November 2021 GTV interview the only
time you gave an interview in public on behalf of the Exchange?
A. It was not.
Q. In those other interviews, did you say things about the
Exchange and its coins that were not true?
A. I did.
Q. And what are the things that you lied about in these other
interviews?
A. Really constantly talking about the coin being on the
blockchain and us using Quorum.
Q. You said a moment ago that you were fearful of causing a
selloff?
A. Yes.
Q. What is a selloff?
A. Well, a selloff is when there's fear in the marketplace and
people rush to sell their currencies.
Q. And what effect, if any, would a selloff have on the price
of H Coin?
A. It would drop the price.
Q. What happened to H Coin's price on the day of the launch?
A. It popped.
Q. What does that mean that it popped?
A. It went from 10 cents to a dollar while I was interviewing,
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and it later went to $20 dollars in 14 days.
Q. And as the CEO of the Exchange at the time, what was your
understanding of -- well, let me ask you this.
What was your reaction of seeing that price hike?
A. Kind of amazed.
Q. And why is that?
A. It was kind of a giant leap for a coin that was really only
on a small exchange. It wasn't on any big exchanges.
Q. And what do you mean that the coin wasn't on any big
exchanges?
A. Well, typically when you launch a coin, two exchanges will
pick you up. And when that happens and the coin is kind of
broadcast on a lot of sites that rank coins and show prices
like the NASDAQ does. So, we weren't anything like that. So
the awareness for our coin globally didn't exist.
Q. When the H Coin price was rising the way you explain,
Mr. Brown, at this time were customers able to hold an H Coin
or were they able to hold an H Coin credit?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
MR. SCHIRICK: Over and over.
A. Credits.
Q. Did you ever ask William Je if there's an explanation for
the price hike?
A. No.
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Q. Was H-Coin ever listed on other exchanges other than the
Himalaya Exchange?
A. It was not.
Q. What about H Dollar?
A. No.
Q. And as the CEO at the time, what was your understanding of
why H Coin and H Dollar weren't listed anywhere except the
Himalaya Exchange?
A. There was quite a bit of fear among the stakeholders that
if it was listed on other exchanges, the price would drop.
Q. And who were the stakeholders who had this fear about a
price drop?
A. Pretty much all of them, but the chief security officer,
the legal team and the chief operations officer.
Q. What was your understanding of why listing H Coin and
H Dollar on other exchanges could cause a price drop?
A. Well, because it would allow a free market to participate
in a much broader scale, so more people could come in and it
would give the people who owned the coin more liquidity to
sell.
Q. And why didn't the exchange want that?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: By the word "exchange," why didn't the
exchange want that? Who are you referring to?
Q. Mr. Brown, you were the CEO at the time?
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A. Yes.
Q. What was your understanding why stakeholders at the
Exchange didn't want the coins or the dollar to be listed on
another exchange?
A. For fear that the price would drop.
Q. What is humming bot. Do you know what that is?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you spell it, please?
A. H-U-M-M-I-N-G, B-O-T.
Q. What is humming bot?
A. It's a software that trades takes both sides of a trade.
It will buy and sell autonomously.
Q. Was humming bot used at the Himalaya Exchange?
A. It was.
Q. And how did you know that?
A. It was spoken about in several meetings.
Q. And who told you that humming bot was being used at the
Exchange?
A. That would be David Fallon.
Q. Who is David Fallon?
A. He was the fund manager for Hamilton Fund.
Q. Who did David Fallon work for?
A. William Je.
Q. What's your understanding as the CEO of the Exchange why
humming bot was being used on the Exchange?
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A. There were primarily two purposes. One was to -- a bot is
typically used in a low volume scenario where there aren't a
lot of traders. That does not bode well for other investors
because they don't want to see a ghost town, so these bots
automatically trade to give the impression of activity.
Q. Why are they called bots?
A. Because they're automated. There's no human behind them.
It's just software.
Q. You said a low volume scenario?
A. Yes.
Q. What does that mean?
A. A low volume scenario means there's not a lot of trades.
Typically an Exchange will trade in the millions everyday.
Q. At the time did you observe a low volume scenario at the
Himalaya Exchange?
A. Yes. It got gradually worse after the launch.
Q. And as the volume got gradually worse, what, if anything,
was happening to the price?
A. The price remained stable for the most part.
Q. What was your understanding of how that was?
A. My understanding was that the bot was driving a lot of the
trades and propping the price.
Q. Did you ever ask William Je about the humming bot?
A. I did not.
Q. Why not?
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A. That was a David Fallon fund task.
Q. Mr. Brown, did there come a time you learned anything about
GTV and the SEC?
A. There did.
Q. And were you CEO at the time you learned this information?
A. I was.
Q. What did you learn?
First of all, what's the SEC?
A. The Securities Exchange Commission.
Q. And what did you learn when you were CEO of the Himalaya
Exchange about GTV and the SEC?
A. I learned that they entered into a settlement with the SEC,
and part of the SEC stated that Miles Guo was not to
participate in any crypto or security issuances directly or
indirectly.
Q. As CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, why did you learn that
information?
A. I typically read some of the SEC filings because at that
point there was a lot going on with FTX and their collapse, and
basically to understand compliance moving forward because
compliance is a very difficult thing in this field, so you kind
of have to get a feel for the industry.
Q. What, if anything, did you do when you learned that there
was a GTV settlement with the SEC about cryptocurrency?
A. I raised it in one of the meetings.
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Q. Mr. Brown, was this a Himalaya Exchange meeting?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Why did you raise GTV's settlement with the SEC in a
Himalaya Exchange meeting?
A. Because there was a lot of marketing being done by Miles
Guo at that time around the Exchange, and I felt that that was
indirectly being involved.
Q. What do you mean marketing being done by Miles Guo around
the Exchange?
A. He spoke about the Exchange a lot on his platforms. He
created an I-tunes song about HCN to the moon.
Q. Did you hear that song?
A. I did.
Q. Before the Himalaya Exchange, had you worked in black
chain?
A. I had.
Q. What, if anything, did the title HCN to the Moon mean to
you?
A. Well, to the moon is a crypto saying that everyone wants to
invest in a coin and then it skyrockets in price to the moon.
Q. Mr. Brown, what was your understanding about why Miles Guo
was making a song called H Coin to the Moon?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I don't know if I had an understanding of why.
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Q. You said that you raised the GTV settlement in a meeting at
the Himalaya Exchange, who was in this meeting?
A. The stakeholders that I mention before, as well as William
Je and head of legal.
Q. And who was the head of legal?
A. Priya Patel I believe is the name.
Q. What did you say about this GTV cryptocurrency settlement
in this meeting?
A. Well, I raised the issue because I felt that, you know, by
promoting the coin and by talking about the coin that was being
indirectly involved in it.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, can we have a brief sidebar
here again?
THE COURT: Yes, you may step up.
(Continued on next page)
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(At the sidebar)
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I let two questions go
there where the subject of the question was a meeting at the
Exchange that involved the stakeholders of the Exchange
including the general counsel of the Exchange. Now we're
clearly getting into -- I think the witness was just asked
about what counsel said. In any event, we're clearly in the
context of what would be a privileged discussion and it's
inappropriate for the government to elicit testimony.
THE COURT: One moment. I just want to hear the
question.
(Record was read)
THE COURT: So what is it that you expect might be
elicited that you object to?
MR. SCHIRICK: I think eliciting any testimony about
this conversation where the witness, according to his own
words, raising a legal question, a legal issue, concern. And I
expect that the next question or two or five is going to get
further into that. In fact -- well, I'll leave it at that.
THE COURT: I think Mr. Horton is going to tell us
about an exception. Go ahead.
MR. HORTON: It's the crime fraud exception is
relevant here. First of all, if there was a privilege to
assert Himalaya Exchange, the lawyers in this meeting aren't
able to assert that privilege. They don't represent the
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Himalaya Exchange. I don't believe they're asserting that
Priya Patel was representing Miles Guo. They'll free to assert
that, that would be relevant to the case. There's a privilege
to assert. It's not their privilege to assert. To be really
clear, Priya Patel is a co-conspirator. If she speaks on
behalf of the instrumentality of a Rico conspiracy, it's not
privilege. When she lies to Mr. Brown, it's not privileged.
MR. SCHIRICK: May I just respond to that, your Honor.
So again we have the agent and co-conspirator exceptions here
swallowing the rule. All the government appears to need to say
is that someone is an agent of one of the many entities or just
assert that a person is a co-conspirator without so much of
proving either of those things out. And then not only do we
have testimony coming into evidence for its truth, we also have
privilege conversations coming in. Now we're happy to take a
break and see if we can raise someone at the Exchange to see if
they'd like to assert privilege. The government has not -- we
had no notice that this was going to happen, right. You didn't
tell us beforehand that you were going to go through it. We
didn't have an opportunity ahead of time to get ahead of this.
We're dealing with it in realtime. We can't very well say that
no one from the Exchange is here to assert privilege. That is
the ultimate argument.
MR. HORTON: Just two brief things on that, your
Honor. Ms. Patel all over Mr. Brown's 3500 because this was
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important for him as the CEO of the Exchange. Second thing,
there was extensive testimony from Sam Roberts from Bitgo about
communications he had with Priya Patel where she was not only a
spokesperson for the Himalaya Exchange, she spoke extensively
about Miles Guo and his relationship to the Exchange.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm not sure what that has to do with
anything. Those were third-party conversations. We're talking
about privileged conversations.
THE COURT: So the government is alleging that she was
part of the conspiracy?
MR. SCHIRICK: I understand that, your Honor. We
understand the Court's pretrial ruling to require that there be
some proof of that before the testimony comes in. That only
takes care of one issue. We're still on the privilege issue.
THE COURT: I think the foundation has been laid to
establish the rule.
MR. SCHIRICK: In a conspiracy?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm not sure I'm aware of what that
evidence is, but I think it's a separate question whether crime
fraud applies. Obviously I think, my understanding at least,
is that it would require the Court to make a finding that at
the advice of counsel was used in connection with a crime, was
used to facilitate a crime. And just a conversation that's
happening around a round table about developments with an SEC
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settlement is far from proving that the lawyer's advice was
used in connection with committing a crime.
MR. HORTON: Your Honor doesn't need to go there. The
question can be about what happened when Mr. Brown raised the
issue of the GTV settlement in this meeting. What happened is
not Ms. Patel gave legal advice. She did not give legal
advice. For one thing she said, he believes is a lie. Another
thing, there's no world in which her response was legal advice.
MS. SHROFF: He literally said he raised a legal
concern and he raised it with a lawyer in the meeting in her
capacity as a lawyer. She's certainly not there in any other
capacity.
MR. HORTON: I expect Mr. Brown will testify that
after he raised this issue, Priya Patel looked to William Je
and said, that's the first I'm hearing of that. And he will
say that struck him as not credible even what he understood.
MR. SCHIRICK: That doesn't make it not true.
MR. HORTON: That's not legal advice, this is the
first I heard of it.
THE COURT: Considering all the testimony concerning
Ms. Patel, I think that an accurate foundation has been laid,
so I'm going to permit the testimony. I just wanted to make
clear that under Guiney I'm making a conditional finding of I'm
expecting the prosecution to be making a motion at the end of
their case.
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(In open court; jury present)
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Mr. Brown, who were the stakeholders in the Himalaya
Exchange meeting when you raised the GTV settlement about
cryptocurrency?
A. That would have been the chief security officer, the chief
operations officer, the chief financial officer, the chief
marketing officer, William Je, legal and internal audit.
Q. And, sorry, you mentioned Priya Patel before the sidebar?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is that?
A. She was the head of legal.
Q. And as you observed it, what was her role at the Exchange?
What did she do?
A. She basically made all the decisions at the end, all the
commercial decisions.
Q. And who did Ms. Patel report to?
A. William Je.
Q. What happened when you raised the SEC settlement with GTV
about cryptocurrency in this meeting with the Exchange?
A. There was somewhat of an awkward silence. I observed Priya
looking at William and then she basically turned to me and
stated that was the first she had heard of it.
Q. Had you previously heard Ms. Patel talk about Miles Guo?
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A. I don't recall.
Q. How did it strike you when Ms. Patel said that was the
first she heard of it?
A. Between the awkwardness, the sheepness, I found it somewhat
untruthful.
Q. Why did you find it some what untruthful when Ms. Patel
said she hadn't heard about this SEC settlement before?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to relevance, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I just felt that she was a competent lawyer. She would
have done due diligence and understood it.
Q. Mr. Brown, why would someone from the Himalaya Exchange
know about the SEC settlement with GTV from the cryptocurrency?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, hypothetical.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Mr. Brown, was it your expectation that Ms. Patel would
know what you were talking about?
A. It was.
Q. Why did you expect that the head of legal at the Himalaya
Exchange would know about the SEC settlement with GTV on
cryptocurrency?
A. Because she spoke to William all the time and understood
all of the dynamics of the relationship between William and
Miles.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to testifying about what
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Ms. Patel understood.
THE COURT: He cannot speak to what was on her mind.
So that portion about what she understood is stricken.
Q. Mr. Brown, why did you expect -- withdrawn.
Did you ask William any questions about the
settlement?
A. I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. We quickly moved on after that with our regular agenda.
Q. Mr. Brown, you said earlier that Miles Guo promoted H Coin
on social media, did you personally observe any of that?
A. I heard the I-tune song.
Q. I'm going to show you a document that's in evidence as
GXC-405. Ms. Loftus, can you please put that up. If you could
scroll to the top.
Mr. Brown, what is this?
A. It looks like an article from G News.
Q. And what was G News?
A. I believe it was one of the entities in Guo Media.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if you could scroll down.
Mr. Brown, what you do understand this document shows?
A. There was a live broadcast and it's reporting highlights
from September 29.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can you please scroll down about just under
halfway down the page. There's a paragraph caption, What's the
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Best Way to keep the Chinese People's Money Safe. When you get
there, can you enlarge that paragraph.
Mr. Brown, do you see this paragraph, it's entitled
What's the Best Way to Keep the chinese People's Money Safe
Without Devaluation?
A. I do.
Q. Ms. Loftus, in the middle of this paragraph there's a
sentence that starts, the Safest Virtual Coin. If you could
highlight that, please.
Mr. Brown, could you read this statement?
A. Yes. The safest virtual coin at the moment is Himalaya
Coin because 20 percent of the value is anchored in gold.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can you go to the top and show the date of this
interview.
Were you the CEO of the Himalaya Exchange on September
29, 2021?
A. I was.
Q. Was it true, Mr. Brown, that 20 percent of the value of
H Coin was anchored to gold?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. How much of the value of H Coin was anchored to gold?
A. None to my knowledge.
Q. How much of the Himalaya Dollar Reserve was in gold?
A. Zero.
Q. As CEO of the Exchange, did you have any role on what Miles
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Guo said?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you ever tell Miles Guo not to make statements like
this?
A. I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. I never spoke to Miles Guo.
Q. And as CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, were you
told to sign documents?
A. Yes.
Q. Who told you to sign documents?
A. I was requested to sign documents often by the chief
financial officer and also the compliance officer at the time.
Q. And what kinds of documents would these executives at the
Exchange tell you to sign?
A. Mostly they were bank applications because getting banking
was very difficult for crypto companies at this time, and then
also I would sign other things around audits and other things
representing the Exchange.
Q. What was your understanding of why you were being asked to
sign documents that were going to banks and auditors?
A. Could you repeat that.
Q. What was your understanding, Mr. Brown, of why you were
being told to sign documents that were going to banks and
auditors?
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A. Cause I was the CEO.
Q. Did you read these documents when you were asked to sign
them?
A. Yes.
Q. How carefully did you read them?
A. Not that carefully.
Q. Why is that?
A. I'm a quick scan reader.
Q. When, if ever, did you ask a document to be changed before
you signed it?
A. I don't recall ever asking.
Q. And why is that?
A. They were just typical CEO things I thought needed to be
signed and pushed through.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can you please pull up what's in evidence as
GXBR-208-A. It's the first page. Can you show the second
page, Ms. Loftus. You can zoom in on the text above Jesse
Brown's CEO signature line to the top of the page, please.
Did you sign this document, Mr. Brown?
A. Yes.
Q. It says U.S. dollars held in Himalaya own bank accounts.
How much money does it report were being held in the Himalaya
own bank accounts?
A. That would be almost over a little over $401 million.
Q. When you signed this as CEO, did you know if this was true?
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A. I did not.
Q. What did you know at that time about how much money the
Exchange had?
A. I had no knowledge on any money that the Exchange had.
Q. Before you signed this, did you ask anyone to verify if it
was true?
A. I don't recall.
Q. The lines below this refer to collateralized HDO credits on
Himalaya ecosystem platforms and collateralized HDO tokens on
the ethereum blockchain.
What's the number on the line item for collateralize
HDO tokens on the blockchain?
A. That would be zero.
Q. Where it says collateralized HDO credits on Himalaya
ecosystem platform, what does Himalaya ecosystem platforms
refer to?
A. That would be all the entities on the platform.
Q. And what is the purpose, as you understood it of this
document that refers to collateralize HDO credits, what did
collateralize mean in this context?
A. I believe the coin would be collateralized against that
amount.
Q. How, if at all, does this document relate to the HDO
reserve?
A. As I stated before in my testimony, with a stable coin each
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coin has to be backed by a dollar, and that's what this would
have represented.
Q. What, if anything, does this document say about how much
gold was used to collateralize H Dollar?
A. There's no gold mentioned in this document.
Q. When you worked at the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, did
there come a time you learned about a seizure of funds?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the seizure you learned about?
A. We had funds in I believe it was a bank in Puerto Rico that
were frozen by the U.S. government.
Q. How did you find out that the government had frozen the
Himalaya Exchange funds?
A. I heard about it in an emergency meeting.
Q. And what did you hear in that emergency meeting at the
Exchange after the seizure?
A. I heard that the funds were frozen, and we were going to be
unable to provide redemptions.
Q. What were redemptions?
A. Redemptions are when Himalaya Exchange users would cash in
their credits and receive fiat for that amount.
THE COURT: What do you mean by fiat?
THE WITNESS: U.S. dollar.
Q. What would it mean for a customer to not be able to make a
redemption at the Himalaya Exchange?
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A. It would mean that their money was trapped in the Exchange
and they couldn't take it out and deposit it into their own
accounts.
Q. And were you CEO at the time you learned about the
seizures?
A. I was.
Q. What was your understanding of why the Exchange stopped
redemptions at that time?
A. Because we were unable to provide any fiat or any U.S.
dollar to satisfy the redemption.
Q. Mr. Brown, what effect, if any, was there on the money in
the H Dollar reserve after the seizures?
A. There was no reserve to my knowledge.
Q. What, if anything, would that mean about the status of
H Dollar?
A. It would mean it's no longer backed and worthless.
Q. What did the Exchange tell its customers about this?
A. There was a big customer service push to mention that we
were having problems with banking at the time and that we were
hoping to resolve them in the immediate future and to please be
patient.
Q. Did the Exchange say that H Dollar was no longer a stable
coin?
A. They did not.
Q. Was it a stable coin at this point?
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A. No.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Were you the CEO at the time, Mr. Brown?
A. I was.
Q. After the H Dollar reserve the funds were gone, was your
understanding that H Dollar was a stable coin?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, misstates the record.
THE COURT: Was it your understanding -- I didn't hear
the last part.
Q. The question was as CEO at the time, after the seizure of
funds, was it Mr. Brown's understanding that H Dollar was still
a stable coin at this point?
THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection.
Q. Was there any cash left at the Exchange at this point as
far as you knew, Mr. Brown?
A. As far as I knew we were cash strapped.
Q. Was that disclose to customers?
A. It was not.
Q. As the CEO of the Exchange at the time, did you have an
expectation about how these seizures would affect the price of
H Coin?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your expectation?
A. Well, at this point there was a lot of fear in the
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marketplace after what had happened to FTX and some other big
Exchanges. So there would have been a big run, what's called a
run where everyone tries to sell at once.
Q. Just to be clear, what was your expectation about what
would happen if anything to the price of the Himalaya
Exchanges's coins?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: What did you fear, is that the question?
MR. HORTON: Yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A. A big price drop because that's what happens during these
times.
Q. And what did happen to H Coin's price?
A. Very little.
Q. Were you able to account for that, Mr. Brown?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, calls for speculation.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I was not.
Q. Did you ask William Je about why the H Coin price didn't
drop after the seizure?
A. I did not.
Q. As a CEO at the Exchange at the time, Mr. Brown, what, if
anything, did you know about the Exchange making a $37 million
loan?
A. I recall there was a meeting about that during one of
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our -- during a meeting we had. We had meetings around -- I
can't remember the specific term, but it was based on -- there
were five or six of us in a board and things came up, and we
determined we were going to do them collectively as a team or
not. I can't remember the exact name of what that group was,
but there was a group that collectively made decisions that
William Je led.
Q. And as the CEO of the Exchange at the time, did you know
what that $37 million expense was for?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it for?
A. It was stated that it was for a loan.
Q. Did you know what the purpose of that loan was as the CEO?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, foundation.
THE COURT: You may answer if you know.
A. Yes, I believe it was for a yacht.
Q. Were you asked to approve that, Mr. Brown?
A. I was.
Q. What, if anything, did you do to look into the
circumstances around the Exchange making a $37 million loan for
a yacht?
A. It was discussed. It was discussed internally. There were
some objections made, but ultimately it was voted to go ahead
and make the loan.
Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have at the time as
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CEO about why the Himalaya Exchange was loaning $37 million for
a yacht?
A. It seemed like a personal loan to me.
Q. Did you take any steps to stop it from going through?
A. Marios and myself objected and talked through it and then
begrudgingly agreed to it.
Q. Who is Marios?
A. Marios was the COO.
Q. When you say it seem like a personal loan, personal loan
for who?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to seem like. It's
speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Why did it appear to you to be a personal loan?
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Why was your understanding that it was a personal loan?
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. I'll move on. In your two and a half years at the Exchange
before that, had the Exchange made a loan for a yacht?
A. No.
Q. Who was this loan for if you knew?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer that, yeah.
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A. William stated it was for Miles Guo's daughter.
Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have about why the
Himalaya Exchange was making a loan for Miles Guo's daughter?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, relevance.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I didn't really have an understanding why.
Q. What happened with this $37 million loan for Miles Guo's
daughter after you and the COO objected?
A. It ultimately passed.
Q. Mr. Brown, did there come a time that your title changed
again from CEO to something else?
A. It did.
Q. What did it change to?
A. I was promoted to president.
Q. And how, if at all, did your job change when you became
president of the Exchange?
A. It didn't really change at all.
Q. How did you find out that you were becoming president of
the Exchange?
A. I believe it was in another meeting, a group meeting.
Q. And who told you that you were no longer the CEO?
A. Well, I had gotten a few messages from colleagues who asked
me if I was fired originally.
Q. Before you got those messages asking you if you were fired,
what, if anything, did you know about your job title at the
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Exchange?
A. I didn't know it had changed.
Q. Who replaced you if anybody as CEO?
A. There was a gentleman. His name was Kevin and he replaced
me.
Q. And as far as you understood who picked Kevin to replace
you as the Himalaya Exchange CEO?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. It was well-known that he was placed there. Miles Guo
placed him there.
Q. How did you learn that Miles Guo had placed Kevin at the
Exchange?
A. Kevin told me.
MR. HORTON: If I could have just a moment, your
Honor.
Q. Going back to a minute for your interview with Yvette Wang,
were you asked by Ms. Wang about your views of the Chinese
Communist Party?
A. I was not.
Q. Do you have a view of the Chinese Communist Party?
A. I do not.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. In your two and a half years at the Himalaya Exchange,
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Mr. Brown, did you understand it to be a political
organization?
A. I did not.
MR. HORTON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross examination.
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. I'd like to take us back to the beginning here if it's okay
with you and just talk about how you got your start in crypto.
You first started working in the blockchain in crypto
industry in 2016 or thereabout?
A. Yes, late 2016.
Q. And do you sort of consider yourself self-taught?
A. That's a fair statement.
Q. And we'll get to your work at the Himalaya Exchange in a
moment. You had a number of other positions in the industry
before the Himalaya Exchange, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So let's just walk through them briefly. The first was at
Ford; is that correct?
A. Yes, I was --
Q. I'll follow-up. Thank you. That's the car company, right?
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A. Yes.
Q. And you were a consultant for four to five months there?
A. A little bit shorter.
Q. And now you can explain if you would what you did there?
A. I was Ford's first blockchain consultant.
Q. And the next role you had was working with electronic
health records, but it was crypto-related; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the concept was that you would own your own health
records, but be able to send them securely over the blockchain?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that was in 2017?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were there for less than a year or so?
A. Yes.
Q. And why was it only a year or so that you were there?
A. I was fired.
Q. And then the next venture you went to was something called
Data Blockchain, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you worked there for a couple of years?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did Data Blockchain do?
A. It made it easier for small companies to purchase records
to market to people for specific industries. So a mom and pop
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shop would have the same advantages of someone buying, you
know, a $100,000.
Q. It was like an advertisement related?
A. Yeah, that's fair.
Q. And then a time came when you left there, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And why was that?
A. The job ended then. They no longer wanted to pursue
issuing a coin.
Q. And then at some point you also -- withdrawn.
Following the Data Blockchain job, at some point you
began talking to, if I have it correct, the Government of Nevis
about a potential crypto project; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And Nevis the Caribbean Island?
A. That's correct.
Q. And why don't you tell us about that?
A. I was going to raise a token to enable the country to
launch a geothermal plant and build data centers there.
Q. And what happened with that?
A. Kind of ran out of steam with the government. There was
some back and forth, but never got the financing.
Q. And how long did that last?
A. It was ongoing back and forth for a couple of years, but it
was just something that, you know, these types of things have
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to pass through multi-layers of government.
Q. Just didn't get traction?
A. Yeah.
Q. And your next position was at the DTCC, right?
A. Yeah, that's right.
Q. And the DTCC is a clearing house; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And it's a clearing house for, among other things, stock
transactions, transaction in equity, right?
A. Yes.
(Continued on next page)
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BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Okay. And am I right that the DTCC is, well, probably the
largest clearing entity, at least in the United States?
A. Yes, in the world. They settle all over a trillion dollars
a day in stock transactions.
Q. It's a massive operation.
A. Yes.
Q. And you were there for approximately four months, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then why did you leave that job?
A. That was a consultant role, and it ended.
Q. Okay. And now these roles that we just went through, you
were not a coder or a programmer in these positions, right?
A. No.
Q. No. And you weren't a software engineer, right?
A. No.
Q. Because you have no formal training in computer science,
right?
A. No. I studied computer science in college.
Q. Did you graduate with a degree in computer science?
A. I did not.
Q. Okay. And even today, you don't really do coding on crypto
projects, right? Your role is a little different.
A. I——I do——I don't code in Solidity, but I——I can architect,
I read it, I understand it.
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Q. Sure.
A. But yeah, I don't——I don't create production code.
Q. Okay. So code not really your thing, right? Not your
strength.
A. No, not my strength.
Q. As you said before, you're more of a designer or sort of
architect for——
A. Architect, yeah.
Q. ——crypto projects. Okay. And fair enough.
So let's just talk——I mean, for some of us who are not
as initiated in crypto and blockchain as you are, if we can,
for a second, about some of the jargon in——
A. Okay.
Q. ——crypto and blockchain, all right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now so just, what is a blockchain?
A. It's a public ledger. It's called a distributed ledger
technology.
Q. Okay. And it allows you to record transactions that occur
on that chain, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And on a public blockchain, those transactions are
visible.
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. But there are also transactions that can occur
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on a public blockchain but that are off-chain, right?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. So just to be clear, is it possible to have transactions in
cryptocurrency that occur——
MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation. He
asked if it's possible.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we had extensive testimony
about this on direct.
THE COURT: You may answer.
Q. So it's true, isn't it, that you can have transactions that
occur in cryptocurrency that are off blockchain, right?
A. No, that's incorrect.
Q. Okay. Now if you have——well, let's put it this way: Is
there such thing as a private blockchain?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you testified about that, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And for example, you worked with a blockchain project that
was in the health care industry?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that an example of one where it would be a private
blockchain?
A. It would be.
Q. Okay. So it's not open to the public; it can't be seen by
anyone; you have to be invited to enter as a participant on the
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blockchain in order to see what's happening.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And are you familiar with JPM Coin?
A. Is that JPMorgan you're referring to?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And is that another example of a private blockchain, or
token that trades on a private blockchain?
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay. Now these private blockchains, the transactions
still occur on the chain even though not everybody can see them
from outside, right?
A. Correct. There's privacy involved.
Q. Okay. And those tokens that trade are still
cryptocurrencies, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now do you know what I mean if I say a centralized
cryptocurrency exchange?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And what is that? Just explain that.
A. A centralized cryptocurrency exchange is where the exchange
holds the users' keys, and a key is to a wallet, so essentially
they hold the crypto for them.
Q. Okay. So all of the exchange's——withdrawn.
All of the customers' crypto is held in the exchange's
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wallets, right?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. Okay. And now is it typical for centralized exchanges to
have off-chain transactions?
A. No.
Q. So let's talk about——are you familiar with Coinbase?
A. I am.
Q. Okay. So when Coinbase facilitates a trade between two
customers, are all of those transactions recorded on a
blockchain, as you understand it?
A. Yes, they would be.
Q. All of the transactions recorded on the blockchain?
A. Yes.
MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.
Q. So to your understanding, centralized exchanges don't use
internal mechanisms to match orders, correct?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: That's a different question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Now are there reasons why an exchange and users may
want transactions to happen off a chain?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation. Your
Honor——
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. Could you repeat, counsel.
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Q. Sure. Are there reasons why users may want transactions in
cryptocurrency to happen off-chain?
A. I couldn't——I couldn't think of any.
Q. Okay. Maybe I'll suggest some to you and you can let me
know if they make sense.
Do off-chain transactions settle more quickly than
on-chain transactions, typically?
A. Depends on the network congestion at the time.
Q. Sure. But with Ethereum, for example. Ethereum can be
slipped sometimes, right? That's just a——
A. Well, the most recent upgrade has eliminated most of that.
Q. Let me just——
MR. HORTON: Objection. He's got to let the witness
answer the question.
MR. SCHIRICK: I hadn't finished my question.
THE COURT: You have to let him answer before the next
question.
MR. SCHIRICK: I believe the witness started talking
before I ended my question; that's all. But it's fine. We can
move on.
Mr. Brown, we just have to wait for each other to
finish.
THE WITNESS: Sorry, counsel.
MR. SCHIRICK: No problem. I apologize too.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
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Q. So my question again was: Is one reason that off-chain
transactions might be preferable is because they settle more
quickly?
A. I guess you could make that case.
THE COURT: So I don't want you to guess. If you
know, you can say yes or no or you can say "I don't know" or "I
don't remember," something like that.
THE WITNESS: All right.
Q. It's a possibility, right?
THE COURT: No, I'm not asking him to speculate.
Don't speculate.
A. Can you repeat the question again, please.
Q. Sure. Is one reason that participants in a transaction may
want to settle off-chain, they want to conduct transactions off
a chain in crypto because it settles faster?
MR. HORTON: Object to the form of the question, your
Honor.
THE COURT: I'll allow the question.
A. I don't agree with that. Even——even something, what you're
referring——
Q. Okay.
A. Okay. I don't agree. I don't agree.
Q. Are you familiar with something called gas?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is gas the fee that one has to pay in order to
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use a public blockchain?
A. No. Gas is the fee for the Ethereum public blockchain.
Q. Okay. Fine. So is one reason that people may want to have
off-chain transactions because they are less expensive to
settle because you don't have to pay gas?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation.
MR. SCHIRICK: It's his understanding, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll allow the question.
A. That's true.
Q. Okay. Now in fact, a significant amount of cryptocurrency
transactions today happen on centralized exchanges, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And viewed from the outside, is it your
understanding that centralized exchanges have a number of
wallets in which they hold customers' crypto?
A. Yes.
Q. And that they don't necessarily have a separate wallet for
every customer, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. The customer may have their——I see your hesitation
so let's get there. So the customer may have his or her, its
own wallet, right?
A. Yes.
Q. But the exchange itself has its wallets, and for tokens
that it custodies, the exchange custodies, they hold them in
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those wallets, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection to the testifying, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll allow the question.
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And so when there is a transaction, say, between two
users on Coinbase, it's true, isn't it, that those tokens that
the users want to exchange may reside in the same exchange
wallet?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. In that scenario, were those two customers to engage
in a transaction, you could not see that transaction happen
from the outside, right?
A. That is not true.
Q. You could see into the exchange's wallet, is your
testimony?
THE COURT: Sustained. Asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay, your Honor.
Q. Can you tell me how one can see inside Coinbase's wallets.
A. Any transaction made on Ethereum blockchain, whether it's
what you're referring to, Coinbase or any level two, is still
broadcast on the public blockchain.
Q. Now remember, I just want to make sure that we're clear.
The question that I asked you before was whether, if two users
whose tokens are held in a single wallet, single exchange
wallet, want to engage in a transaction. That's what I'm
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talking about. Does that make sense?
A. Can you repeat it again.
Q. Yes, sir. So if you have two users on an exchange, on a
centralized exchange, and the exchange's wallet holds both
users' tokens, and those users engage in a transaction——are you
with me so far? Does that make sense?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You cannot see into that wallet when that
transaction happens, right? You cannot see into the exchange's
wallet.
MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: He asked me to clarify, your Honor.
I'm just trying to clarify.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. It sounds true.
Q. Right. So if you have transactions that are happening on a
centralized exchange, it is the case that sometimes you can't
see those transactions because they happen inside a wallet, not
across the blockchain.
A. Fair enough.
Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.
Now let's just go back to your work history here for a
second and talk about the Himalaya Exchange.
So I believe you testified on direct that you started
work in June 2020; is that right?
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A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And this was during the pandemic, as everybody
knows. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were at home, stuck at home like the rest of us?
A. I was.
Q. Okay. And now at that time the crypto and blockchain
sectors were pretty hot, is that fair to say? Popular?
A. Yeah, that's fair to say.
Q. Enjoying some media and press, fair to say?
A. Yeah, at that point.
Q. Yeah. Okay. And is it also fair to say that you felt like
you had a lot of potential job opportunities around that time?
A. Yeah, that's a fair point.
Q. Right. And I mean, do you recall telling the government
when you met with them that your phone was ringing off the hook
around this point in time?
A. My phone rings off the hook.
Q. At this point in time. I have no doubt.
A. All the time.
Q. But at this point in time. At this point in time, just to
be clear.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then you had, you testified on direct, a first
interview with someone named Yvette Wang, right?
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A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And fair to say this was sort of an initial
interview with Ms. Wang?
A. It was.
Q. And did you get the sense that Ms. Wang knew anything about
blockchain or crypto?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
MR. SCHIRICK: Asking his impression.
THE COURT: You can answer that question, yeah.
A. I didn't get the impression she knew a lot about blockchain
or crypto.
Q. Okay. It was just sort of a general interview, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was relatively short?
A. It was probably half an hour. There was another gentleman
involved in that interview too.
Q. Sure. And was that one call that you had with Ms. Wang and
the other gentleman or were there two?
A. They were both on the same call.
Q. And it was a single call.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for that.
And the person who was on that call was the chief
technology officer of GTV?
A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. And did that person ask you some questions about
blockchain?
A. He did.
Q. Okay. Now following that call you had, I believe you
testified on direct, an interview with Mr. Je, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And now there were two interviews with Mr. Je,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes, I believe.
Q. Right. And the first interview happened fairly shortly
after the first interview with Ms. Wang, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you took those interviews via video call, I
believe you testified.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And the scope of the job, as you understood it, was
that you were interviewing for blockchain architect?
A. Yes.
Q. And the role wasn't for a CEO role.
A. It was not.
Q. Right. Okay. And now can you just tell us a little bit
about what you discussed with Mr. Je during that first call.
A. I went over my job history and kind of dug into the
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DTT——DTCC component of it.
Q. Okay. And did he seem particularly interested in your work
at the DTCC?
A. He did.
Q. Okay. And you spoke in depth with him about blockchain and
finance?
A. Yes. I crushed the interview.
Q. As history shows.
And you had the impression that William Je had a lot
of experience in finance, right?
A. Tremendous amount.
Q. Right. And you found him pretty impressive, I think you
said, right?
A. Very impressive.
Q. And knowledgeable, right?
A. Very knowledgeable.
Q. Okay. Now you didn't talk to William Je during the first
interview about GTV, did you?
A. I did not.
Q. Right. That didn't come up, right?
A. I don't recall it coming up.
Q. Yeah. You were talking about the idea of an exchange.
A. I was pitching the chain.
Q. Sure. A crypto chain?
A. Yeah.
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Q. And the tokens, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And one of the tokens that you talked about was I
think what we've been referring to here today as a stablecoin,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And that's basically sort of like a crypto
dollar; is that a fair——
A. That's a good analogy.
Q. ——analogy? Okay. And the idea was for that crypto dollar
to be backed by cash, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And eventually——and we'll get to this later,
but——eventually that becomes HDO, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then the second token that you talked to him
about was what people referred to as a trading coin.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And that is what eventually becomes HCN, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And did you talk to Mr. Je about a longer-term
vision for the exchange too during these interviews?
A. I didn't.
Q. Yeah. And what was his longer-term vision, to your
understanding?
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A. His envision was to be the biggest exchange in the world.
Q. Okay. And was he also trying to, as you understood it,
create an ecosystem, so to speak?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And to recruit merchants who would accept these
coins for payment for various goods and services, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. And did that strike you as a pretty grand vision at
the time?
A. Yeah, I thought it was cool.
Q. Okay. Now is it fair to say these two interviews with
Mr. Je had a lot more substance to them than the initial
interview with Ms. Wang?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you felt like the interviews with Mr. Je were
sort of the ones that counted, right?
A. I felt they all counted.
Q. Okay. Did you feel like you had to impress Mr. Je?
A. Yeah, you have to impress anyone when you're trying to get
a job.
Q. And you said before you crushed it, right?
A. Killed it.
Q. Yeah, killed it. Killed it. So you felt like you were out
to impress him; fair to say?
A. Just——
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MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
A. Just doing what I do.
Q. We get it. We get it.
Now did you have the impression that Mr. Je was the
decision-maker as to who to hire?
A. I did.
Q. Yeah. And do you know if he was interviewing any other
candidates?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
MR. SCHIRICK: To his knowledge.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. None that I was aware of.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. So if we could just briefly
please pull up the government exhibit that's in evidence, 3419.
Q. And you see this document, Mr. Brown?
A. I do, counsel.
Q. And you were shown this on direct, right?
A. Could you repeat that.
Q. You were shown this document on your direct testimony——
A. Yes, yes.
Q. ——right? Okay. And this was the offer letter that came
from GTV, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now before you accepted the job, did you look up
Mr. Guo?
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A. I don't believe I did.
Q. Okay. So at the time you had no idea what Guo Media was,
right?
A. Well, can I retract that. I did do a little bit of
research, yeah, typical quick scan.
Q. Okay. And you believed that these companies——that GTV was
associated with Mr. Guo, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now I believe you testified that you saw your job as
part of the same job——withdrawn.
——that you saw your job at the Himalaya Exchange as
part of the same job as the GTV job, right?
A. Well, I was hired by GTV.
Q. Right. Did you ever talk to Yvette Wang again?
A. I did one other time.
Q. And what was the purpose of that?
A. She was calling to push along our development. They were
getting very frustrated that we weren't delivering on time, as
I stated previously in my testimony.
Q. Okay. So that call had nothing to do with GTV, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. What is Guo Media? I'm sorry. Let me take that
back.
At this point in time, in June of 2020, what's your
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understanding of what Guo Media is?
A. Just a large group of——of social media companies and of
publications, a lot of it politically driven.
Q. You understood that in June of 2020?
A. Yeah, I think so.
Q. And then how was Guo Media different from GTV, again, as
you understood it in June of 2020?
A. I didn't know. I don't know that.
Q. You don't know.
A. No.
Q. Can you name an employee of Guo Media?
A. The first interviewer that I had, yeah.
Q. Besides——do you know that she was employed by Guo Media?
A. Or the——the technology——the head of tech, yeah.
Q. Okay. So besides the two people that you spoke to, can you
name another employee of Guo Media?
A. I cannot.
Q. Can you name another employee of GTV?
A. I can't name them, but I've——I've been on a couple of video
calls with them later on.
Q. Okay. So just to be clear, your service for the Himalaya
Exchange was different than, and separate from, Guo News and
Guo Media, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection. It's a compound question.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'll take it piece by piece.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: Okay.
Q. So just to be clear, your work for the Himalaya Exchange
was separate from GTV, right?
A. I wouldn't say that. At the beginning, I was employed by
GTV. I talked to their——to their PR person——I mean, their
human resource person.
Q. Mr. ——
A. Quite a bit.
Q. I just want you to listen to my question, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Apart from interviewing with people who you believed to
work at GTV, okay, did you ever work with anyone else at GTV?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I did. I worked with human resource.
Q. In connection with your——
A. With GTV.
Q. Let me finish. This is the part where we have to let each
other finish, okay?
A. Sorry, counsel.
Q. So you worked with human resources to get set up to be paid
by GTV?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Other than that, did you work with GTV at all?
A. No.
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Q. Okay. Same question for Guo Media. Other than initial
administrative setup stuff, did you do any work with Guo Media?
A. I did not.
Q. Okay. So now we get to the question. Your work at the
Himalaya Exchange was separate from GTV, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And it was separate from Guo Media, whatever that is,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now you testified on direct, I believe, that you
never met your——met in person, I should say——your work
colleagues from Himalaya; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now isn't it true that at the time Himalaya was a
startup company?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And it had employees at that point in time——again,
we're just focusing on, you know, June 2020——it had employees
who were all over the world, right?
A. Well, in June of 2020, there were only three of us, but
yes, they were all scattered over the world.
Q. Scattered over the world, right? And as we covered before,
this was during COVID, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And the folks who were scattered over the world,
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just to cover off the geography, some were in the UK, right?
A. Right.
Q. Some were in Australia?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that fair?
A. Fair.
Q. You were in the U.S.?
A. Yes.
Q. And some were other places, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So for the period when COVID was still with us,
people didn't travel all that much, right?
A. No.
Q. Right. And, you know, you didn't think that these people
that you worked with for two and a half years were, like, not
real people, right?
A. No, they were real people.
Q. They were real people, right? Doing real work.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So just to be clear, just because you didn't meet
them in person, that didn't mean that they weren't real people
doing real work, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now you also testified that GTV paid your salary, I
believe from June to December of 2020, right?
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And then shortly after that you started to be paid
by Himalaya, right?
A. After I was kicked to the curb by GTV.
Q. Well, we'll get to that. And let's just keep it to the
facts, right?
The question was: After you left GTV, you were being
paid by Himalaya, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And do you know whether Hamilton or Himalaya
reimbursed GTV for its payment of your salary?
A. I do not know that, counsel.
Q. Okay. Now when you started at Himalaya——just to reset now
and go back to that——when you started at Himalaya, again, in
June of 2020, you knew to report to Mr. Je, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. That was, like, clear to you off the bat.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And because you had initial calls with him, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And you had some Skype messages with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And at that time, as I think you alluded to before,
the Himalaya also hired some other people, right?
A. That's——that's correct.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. And some other senior people, like you, right?
A. Yes, but they weren't Himalaya employees.
Q. Okay.
A. Per se.
Q. We'll get to that.
Now at the time that you started working for the
exchange, it wasn't called the Himalaya Exchange yet, right?
A. I'm not sure that's true. I believe it was called the
Himalaya Exchange by the time I had——I had left GTV and gone
and worked there.
Q. Okay. Do you recall telling the government in your
meetings with them that you had some input into naming Himalaya
Exchange?
A. I did not have input into naming Himalaya Exchange, but the
coins I did.
Q. How about——fair enough.
And who is Marios Mamzeris?
A. He was the chief operating officer.
Q. Okay. And was Marios also someone who was hired around the
same time that you were?
A. Yeah. I was the assistant——yes.
Q. Yes is fine.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And he was a blockchain consultant, right?
A. He was.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. And he eventually became, as we just covered, the chief
operating officer.
A. That's correct.
Q. And he was based in Greece, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And you all worked remotely together.
A. That's true.
Q. Okay. And then there was also someone——and you may need to
help me with this——named Di, D-I?
A. Yes. Di, Di.
Q. I'm sorry. Di. And was that Di first or last name?
A. That was his first name.
Q. And what was his last name?
A. I can't recall.
Q. Okay.
A. Unfortunately.
Q. And how long did you work with Di?
A. The whole duration.
Q. For two and a half years.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And he was the head of IT?
A. He was.
Q. Okay. And again, he was also hired around the same time.
A. I'm not sure that's true. I believe he had been working
for William long before that.
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Q. He was brought into the project around the same time,
right?
A. He was before me, a little before me.
Q. Okay. But——
A. Yes.
Q. Within a couple months of you joining, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then was there a compliance person who also
joined around the same time?
A. The compliance person would have been a month or two later.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, within a couple of months I
would consider around the same time, if that makes sense to
you.
A. Fair.
Q. Okay. Now when you came on to join the exchange project,
was it your understanding that the project already had obtained
a license, in Australia?
A. I'm not sure if it had already obtained it, but it was
obtained, you know, right away.
Q. Sure. So it was either obtained or in the process of
obtaining it.
A. Correct.
Q. And ultimately it did get the license in Australia.
A. That's right.
Q. And what was the license for?
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A. The license was for——for the exchange to conduct business
as an exchange in Australia.
Q. Okay. And as I think we covered before, there was also a
compliance person who was based in Australia, right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. But ultimately the exchange decided to move
away from the idea of operating out of Australia because of tax
implications; is that your understanding?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now let's talk about Hamilton briefly.
Now you became familiar with Hamilton after starting
your job in June of 2020, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you understood that Hamilton was an investment
firm; is that fair?
A. Yes, that's fair.
Q. And it had a consulting wing, as people say, to it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And that both of those were started by Mr. Je,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. And he was the owner of both of those.
A. The UBO, yes.
Q. UBO. Okay. I wasn't going to use it, but you used it, so
we'll go with it. So he was the UBO.
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Now Hamilton had, in your understanding, at this time,
a pretty big office in the UK, right?
A. They eventually got an office, yes.
Q. Okay. And as Hamilton grew, they started to put more
people in place, right?
A. Right.
Q. And more people in place who were working on the exchange
project, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I believe you testified earlier that it was hard for
Hamilton and Mr. Je to get people to come into the office
during the pandemic, right?
A. To get talented people.
Q. Right. And Mr. Je wanted people in the office, right?
A. Yes, that was a mandate.
Q. Okay. And as you said, as a result, in your view, you felt
like perhaps the exchange project didn't get some of the best
people they could have gotten because of that, you know,
requirement that people come into the office.
A. True.
Q. Okay. Now again, even at this stage, in the second half of
2020 now, just to put down a time marker, still fair to say
that the exchange project is in startup mode, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And there was a lot of excitement in startup mode;
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folks were excited about trying to build this product, right;
fair to say?
A. That's fair.
Q. Right? A lot of passion?
A. A lot of passion.
Q. Right. And a lot to do.
A. Could you repeat that.
Q. And a lot to do.
A. Yes.
Q. Right. But especially given the big goals that we talked
about before that Mr. Je had, right?
A. Right.
Q. And it sort of felt overwhelming sometimes, fair to say?
A. I wasn't overwhelmed.
Q. Okay. Now you said that you never met Mr. Je in person on
direct, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And again, this is during the time of COVID. That
covers a fair part of the period that you worked there, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now when you joined the exchange——and again, I'm
focusing on let's say the sort of back half of 2020 into maybe
early 2021——is it fair to say that your impression was that
there was a lot of money being spent to stand up this project?
A. Yes.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. And can you just give us some examples of that.
A. Our——well, we had a huge payroll, we had huge tech bills
and huge cloud bills, and we were developing data centers.
Q. Okay. And you had outside vendors for various things as
well?
A. Yes, quite a few.
Q. Okay. And I believe you told the government that you
thought the IT spending was in the millions of dollars, just to
get things stood up, right?
A. It was.
Q. Okay. And at this point you understood that the money for
these startup costs was coming from Mr. Je, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And in early——I'm sorry. Withdrawn.
In 2020 and early 2021, the exchange hadn't sold any
tokens to anybody, right, prior to April of 2021?
A. Correct.
Q. The exchange hadn't raised any money, as far as you knew,
right?
A. As far as I knew.
Q. Right. And they didn't sell any HCN during that period?
A. No.
Q. They didn't sell any HDO during that period?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So pretty clear to you that during this time the
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money that was spent to build the exchange was not money from
investors.
A. Yes.
Q. And not money from token purchasers.
A. Yes.
Q. Or anyone else, as far as you knew.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And I believe you told the government——am I
correct——that it was something of——
THE COURT: You had testified that there were no token
purchases; is that correct?
MR. SCHIRICK: At that point in time, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: At that point in time.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
Q. And it was something of a——withdrawn.
You and your colleagues would talk about how much
money was being spent on the exchange, right, to stand it up?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Hearsay.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. Yeah, yeah, a few of us——a few of us talked about
exorbitant expenses, yes.
Q. Yeah. Okay. So let's just briefly talk about the
exchange's leadership team.
So you have Mr. Je, right, who's the UBO?
A. Yes.
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Q. And sort of, you know, at this point de facto head of the
operation, right? Sort of like, titles aside, he's calling the
shots, right?
A. Head honcho.
Q. Yeah, sure. Okay. And then you have David Fallon, who is
the CEO at Hamilton, right? Is that your understanding?
A. Not sure about I knew CEO. I knew he was a fund manager.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. But he's a senior figure at Hamilton——
A. Yes.
Q. ——fair? And maybe one manager under him.
A. Yes.
Q. And Tim Clark; who was Tim Clark?
A. Yes, he was the——he was the first CTO.
Q. Okay. You weren't a fan of his, right?
A. Not of his skill set. I liked him as a person though.
Q. Sure. Okay. But at some point——well, withdrawn.
At this point, at this point in time——again, focusing
on late 2020, early 2021——Tim is the chief technology officer,
right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And later he gets replaced by somebody else, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And then Tom O'Leary; who is Tom O'Leary?
A. He was the chief marketing officer that was hired during
that time.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. And then we talked about Marios Mamzeris. And he was the
COO, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then how about Azeem Bashir?
A. He was the chief security officer.
Q. Okay. So chief information officer, chief security
officer?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And who's Joe Wang?
A. Joe Wang. I'm not sure I recall that name.
Q. Okay. How about Hesop (ph) Chin?
A. He was the compliance officer from Australia.
Q. So that's the person we referred to before.
A. Yes.
Q. And Hesop was the chief compliance officer for the
exchange, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then how about Ehsan Haque?
A. He was the lead counsel at that time.
Q. Okay. And now I think we just listed roughly eight or nine
fairly senior people who were working at the exchange during
this period of time; fair to say?
A. Well, they were working for Hamilton consulting.
Q. Right. They were spending a lot of their time working on
the exchange, right, because those were the people you were
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working with?
A. That's true.
Q. Right. So fair to say that there were eight or nine senior
people who were working at the exchange during that period of
time? On the exchange? Forgive me.
A. In the spring. There weren't that many in the fall.
Q. Are we talking, I'm sorry, 2020——
A. Yeah, during the first——it took a little while to onboard
all that, all those executives, so it was probably January of
2021 before everyone was in place there.
Q. Okay. Fair. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification.
So in the fall and sort of winter of 2020, there's
still this gearing up that's happening with the exchange.
A. Yes.
Q. The exchange is still hiring talent and hiring senior
people, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And in your recollection, that kind of comes
together in roughly January of 2021.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then at its peak, how many people did Hamilton
have working on the exchange, approximately?
A. Well, there were 200 employees——
Q. Okay.
A. ——in London at one point.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. Right. So isn't it true that the exchange——withdrawn.
Understanding that the consulting wing of Hamilton was
the former employer of some of these people, okay? We accept
that. But those people were working on the exchange project;
is that fair?
A. That is fair, counsel.
Q. A fair description? Okay. So understanding that, is it
fair to say that the exchange employed multiple people in
finance who were working on the exchange?
A. That's fair.
Q. And multiple people in IT who were working on the exchange?
A. Multiple, multiple.
Q. Yes, correct. And multiple, multiple developers, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And now the exchange also had a 24/7 customer
service line, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. And when does that come in?
A. That was early on too, you know, probably about that same
period. Maybe lagged a couple weeks to get everyone in place.
Q. Okay. Fair. The exchange didn't really have any
customers, which we'll get to in a second, until kind of later
in 2021, right?
A. Yeah, it was a training and onboarding period.
Q. So the exchange was getting ready and getting prepared to
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have a customer service function when it anticipated having
customers.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And that was, again, a 24/7 operation, right?
A. It was.
Q. And it wasn't even outsourced, right?
A. No.
Q. And they were employed directly by the exchange, or
Hamilton, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the customer service folks spoke both Mandarin and
English, right?
A. The majority, right.
Q. And fair to say you found that pretty impressive?
A. I did.
Q. Yeah.
Okay. Now let's just talk a little bit about the
day-to-day work. And you touched on this I believe on direct a
little bit, but you had daily conference calls; is that fair?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And those conference calls started pretty early for
you, right?
A. 7 a.m.
Q. Yeah. 7 a.m., 'cause a lot of other folks were across the
pond and a few hours ahead.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Time zonewise.
A. Right.
Q. And sometimes you had one-on-one meetings with different of
your senior colleagues?
A. I did.
Q. Okay. And sometimes did you have one-on-one meetings with
William?
A. Not really.
Q. Okay. Well, did you have meetings with William where there
were like one or two other people there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. He wasn't alone often in meetings; he had people who
came with him, right?
A. Right, right.
Q. But understanding that, you did have lots of interaction
with William during this period, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that your weekly schedule was
made up of a Monday call that was a sort of all employees
meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And either William or Azeem would sort of run that meeting?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then on Tuesdays, Tuesdays were for tech meetings,
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right?
A. As I recall, yes.
Q. Okay. And that was run by the chief technology officer,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would have, you know, depending on the time,
anywhere from between sort of 20 to 30 people on those calls,
right, Tuesday calls?
A. No. Probably closer to 10 or 15.
Q. Okay. 10 or 15 people on the Tuesday calls.
And then on Wednesdays, you would have operations
meetings, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And those were run by the COO of the exchange, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And about how many people attended those, on
average?
A. That's about the same as tech.
Q. Okay. And then Thursdays you had finance meetings, right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And then on Fridays you had stakeholder
meetings, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And that was the phrase that was used to describe the sort
of more senior group of executives, including you.
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A. That's true, but most of the——most of the stakeholders were
involved in all the meetings.
Q. Yeah, fair enough, but you had kind of a separate call——
A. Yes.
Q. ——to a smaller, more senior group.
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Now that's an awful lot of people working on this
project, isn't it?
A. It is.
Q. All right. And do you recall——and I believe you, again,
may have touched on this on direct, that you filled out what
I'll just call time sheets? I don't know if that's the right
word. But do you know what I'm referring to?
A. I do. I do.
Q. Okay. And you sort of, in a chart format, you know, listed
kind of what you had done for the weeks of the month, for the
entire month, right?
A. That's right.
Q. In summary.
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And that was kind of the way that you billed the
exchange so that you could be paid for your work.
A. That's right. That's right.
Q. All right. And what was your salary during this period of
time?
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A. I believe I started at 180,000.
Q. Okay. Now let's just talk a little bit about the sort of
evolution of the exchange from a regulatory perspective.
We talked before about the exchange initially thinking
that it might operate with an Australia license, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. But that was abandoned, as we discussed before,
right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And then there was a pivot to potentially operating
out of the British Virgin Islands, right?
A. That's right.
Q. We're going to get to the surfing. I promise.
A. Okay.
Q. I want to hear more about that.
Now that decision to pivot to the BVI, do you have an
understanding of why that was?
A. I believe it was a jurisdiction where we could issue the
coin without having a license at the time.
Q. Okay. So it was favorable, from a regulatory point of
view.
A. It was.
Q. Just more relaxed from a regulatory point of view.
A. At the time, yes.
Q. At the time, right. And so you actually were asked to
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travel to the BVI.
A. I was.
Q. Okay. And to explore establishing an entity there, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And you actually hired lawyers down there, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you made a recommendation as to who to hire,
right?
A. No, I did not make the recommendation.
Q. Did you meet with the lawyers?
A. I did.
Q. Okay. And then there was this BVI sandbox application,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. That you testified about on direct, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And when was this, approximately, that you go down
BVI to explore the BVI sandbox?
A. I believe it would have been in the late spring or summer
of 2021, but I don't recall exactly.
Q. Okay. All right. Fair enough.
But definitely 2021; it wasn't 2020.
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.
Now I believe you also testified on direct that you
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kind of did some prospecting for potential office space down in
the BVI——
A. Yes.
Q. ——right? And you also looked for some telecom providers?
A. Yeah, that's——yes, yes, I did.
Q. Like data, internet service providers?
A. Yes.
Q. Which one needs to run a crypto exchange, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you also spoke to people in the BVI FSC, right?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And is that the Financial Services——
A. Committee.
Q. ——Committee?
A. Or Commission. Yeah, one of those two.
Q. Whatever; it's a regulator down on BVI.
A. Right. It's a regulating body there.
Q. Understood. Regulating body.
And you spoke to them about that sandbox application,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And about how long were you down in the BVI?
A. I would only go down for a couple weeks at a time, but I
went back and forth a couple, few times.
Q. Okay. Two times, more than two times?
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A. I think it——I think it was three total.
Q. Three. Okay. And this sandbox application, that was
because the BVI was sort of looking to attract innovative
technologies and businesses in the islands——
MR. HORTON: Objection.
Q. ——to your understanding?
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And it was called a sandbox——again, asking for your
understanding——sandbox is sort of a metaphor, right, for being
able to play?
A. Yeah.
Q. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you can play because the rules are a little bit more
relaxed, as you described before.
A. They are.
Q. Right. Okay. And you discovered that in order to succeed
on a BVI sandbox application, you had to have I think it was
50 percent or so of your employees based on the islands?
A. That's correct.
Q. Right. And fair to say that that became something that was
a little difficult to work with given where most of the folks
for the exchange were located throughout the world?
A. I'm not sure that's fair.
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Q. Well, in any event, it was something that you all found
difficult to work with as a condition, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHIRICK: Did I ask that question? Okay.
Q. In any event, you ended up and the exchange ended up
abandoning the BVI effort, right?
A. Yes.
Q. But it got, fair so say, to at least sort of——withdrawn.
Would you say that it got to a mature stage as a
possibility of where to run operations out of?
A. That's a——
MR. HORTON: Object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: You can answer.
A. That's a fair statement.
Q. Okay. And there was significant resources invested in that
effort, right?
A. No. That's incorrect.
Q. There weren't significant resources invested in it?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Did the exchange have to hire lawyers to work on the
sandbox application?
A. Yeah, they hired lawyers.
Q. Okay. And they were paying you, right?
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A. They were paying me.
Q. Okay. You don't consider that a significant investment, I
guess?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I don't, because they weren't willing to pay the rent.
Q. And by rent, you mean literally the——
A. Yeah, they weren't willing to put a deposit down on the
office.
Q. Okay. All right. Fine. So they didn't want to put down
the money for the office.
So whatever the reason was, that didn't end up panning
out, right?
A. Yes.
Q. It would have been nice if it had.
A. Much to my chagrin.
Q. Yes. It would have been nice if it had.
Now while you were down there, I think you said you
worked on some other sort of side projects?
A. I said that?
Q. Let's try it this way. Did you work on any other side
projects that were not exchange related when you were down in
the BVI?
A. Yeah, I did have a side project by that point.
Q. Okay. And I believe you testified on direct that you were
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really only working three or four hours a day for the exchange?
A. That's fair.
Q. Right. And you were spending the rest of the time, fair to
say, either surfing or working on your side project, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Now after the exchange gives up——well, withdrawn.
Can you kind of give us your best estimate as to when
the decision is made to, you know, not do the BVI anymore.
A. It was——I believe it was right after we got denied the
sandbox application.
Q. Right. Okay. And then there was another pivot, and this
was to potentially move the exchange operations to Abu Dhabi,
right?
A. That's right, counsel.
Q. Okay. And then the exchange started working on trying to
get licensed in Abu Dhabi, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And this——withdrawn.
Did Mr. Je ask you at any point whether you would be
willing to move to the BVI if the exchange had successfully
been able to locate in the BVI?
A. He did.
Q. He did. And you told him you were willing to do that,
right?
A. More than willing.
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Q. Sounds like it.
And did Mr. Je also ask you at other times whether you
would be willing to relocate for this job to other locations?
A. He did.
Q. Okay. And did he ask you if you'd be willing to relocate
within the United States?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he ask you whether you'd be willing to locate to
Europe?
A. No.
Q. To the UK?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And at some point did he ask you whether you'd be
willing to relocate to Abu Dhabi?
A. He did.
Q. Okay. And that's one you weren't willing to do, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Now what——
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry. If I could just have one
moment, your Honor.
Q. Okay. Now when it comes to Abu Dhabi, you had the
impression that Mr. Je sort of felt comfortable there, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
Q. Like he knew the landscape?
THE COURT: You may answer that, whether he felt
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comfortable; whether, by observing him, you got the impression
that he felt comfortable.
A. I did.
Q. Yeah. Like he sort of knew the landscape there?
A. Knew the landscape and connected.
Q. Right. Okay. And at this point in time——and we're talking
about Abu Dhabi——it's sort of early fall 2021; is that fair?
A. Early fall 2021. No, I——I believe that would have been a
2022 thing.
Q. Okay.
A. I'm not sure of the dates though.
Q. All right. Fair enough. It was sort of in the later
stages of your time there; fair to say?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now I just want to talk a little bit about this
credit system that was much discussed on direct.
A. Okay.
Q. Okay? Can you just tell me how the credit system worked.
A. Sure. So a user would be onboarded onto the exchange, they
would go through a compliance checklist, they would be accepted
by the exchange, and then they would be asked to top up their
account with——with dollar, and then they would purchase these
credits with those.
Q. Okay.
A. And the credits would show in their account on their
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dashboard.
Q. Okay. Got it. Sorry. And I think you used the phrase
"top up" there.
A. Yes.
Q. Now was there a reason that that phrase was used in
particular?
A. Yeah, it's an——it's a London term.
Q. Sure. And was part of the reason that it was used, to your
understanding, because the word "deposit" would connote a
banking transaction, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Right. And so "top up" was a better way to put it, right?
A. There was some discussion back and forth. We ended up with
"top up."
Q. Okay. And so once the ex——once the——let's just call them
dollars. Is that fair to say, they were almost always U.S.
dollars that were used to top up accounts?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. So once the dollars were put into an account, as I
understand it——and you'll confirm this for me——the customer
would receive a credit on Himalaya's internal records for an
equivalent in the relevant——
MR. HORTON: Objection to counsel testifying about his
understanding.
MR. SCHIRICK: I can rephrase. I'm happy to rephrase.
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That's fine.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. Is it fair to say that the way that it worked was that a
customer would top up an account with dollars and then the
exchange would issue the customer a credit on its internal
books, internal ledger, for the relevant cryptocurrency?
MR. HORTON: Object to form.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. That's a fair statement, yes, that's true.
Q. Okay. And when the customer wanted to make a trade, the
exchange would, on its internal ledger, move those credits as
appropriate on its internal ledger, right?
A. That's how I understood it, yes.
Q. Okay. And if a user——
THE COURT: Are you testifying as to what you
understood was the system or what actually happened?
THE WITNESS: What I understood was the system.
THE COURT: In other words, that was what you
understood to be the plan?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. And when a user wanted to, for example, purchase HCN, the
trading coin, with HDO that the user held, that transaction
would be effected on the exchange's internal ledger, correct?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. So you could use HDO credits to buy HCN, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then the HCN credit was tradeable with others
who had HCN or HDO, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the HDO Credits were redeemable for cash, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. All right. Now is it fair to say that that credit
system that we just talked about wasn't meant to last forever
at the exchange?
A. I believe that's fair.
Q. Right. You had plans to further develop the system, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And move away from the credit system, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And the plan ultimately was for the exchange to
operate on-chain, right?
A. That was the plan.
Q. And to do away with the credit system, right?
A. Eventually, yes.
Q. Right. And the plan was for the exchange to become a
regular crypto exchange that would allow trading in other
cryptocurrencies besides HCN and HDO, right?
A. That was a goal, yes.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. Right. And no different than other crypto exchanges,
right, in the sense that you could trade other
cryptocurrencies.
A. Yes, it would have been more like a typical exchange at
that point.
Q. Okay. And those goals were ones that the Himalaya team
that we talked about earlier was working towards, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And in fact, the plan, as we talked about earlier,
was for the exchange to eventually become a full-blown
ecosystem.
A. The ambitious plan, yes.
Q. Yeah, fair. We covered that before. Very ambitious, but
that was the plan.
And in fact, that's what people were working towards,
right?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: The ecosystem is different, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Now as part of the ecosystem, there was a plan at
the exchange to build what was called a merchant portal, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what was that?
A. It was a portal that would consist of retail clients who
would be able to accept HCN or HDO as payment and ship
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products.
Q. Okay. Right. And merchants in this context means like
businesses, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And so the idea was that the exchange was building
something that would allow businesses to accept the tokens that
were traded on the exchange.
A. That's right.
Q. Right. And so the idea was so that people could transact
in those tokens.
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And are you aware of something called H Pay?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. And is it true that Hamilton and the folks at the
exchange were working on an H Pay app?
A. That is true.
Q. Okay. And true that people at Hamilton complained that the
merchant portal was not being built as quickly as they wanted
it to be, right?
A. Not people at Hamilton complained.
Q. Didn't——
A. Could you rephrase that.
Q. Sure. Was Mr. Je at points frustrated that the merchant
portal wasn't coming along as quickly as he wanted?
A. He was.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
Q. Right. And he was a little frustrated that the ecosystem
wasn't coming along as quickly as he wanted?
A. To a lesser extent.
Q. Okay. And how about same question with respect to H Pay.
A. H Pay was started much later so there wasn't big
frustration level there, but probably a minor frustration
level.
Q. But it was started; there was actual work done on H Pay,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was actual work done on the merchant portal,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And you didn't see anything the whole time you were
there to suggest that people weren't working towards these
things, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now do you recall telling the government that it was
your impression that Mr. Je was out hustling to get merchants
onto the platform?
A. Could you rephrase that one more time. Could you say that
again.
Q. Sure. I'll try it again. Do you recall telling the
government, in your meetings with them, that it was your
impression that Mr. Je was out hustling to get merchants onto
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the platform?
A. I don't recall stating that, no.
Q. Okay. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.
MR. SCHIRICK: Can we pull up for just the parties and
the witness, Jorge, please, 3506, at 13.
If I may just have one moment, your Honor.
Q. So Mr. Brown, do you see the excerpt of the document that's
appeared on your screen?
A. I do.
Q. And do you see the highlighted portion of that document?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. Does that refresh your recollection of having said——
A. It does.
Q. ——that to the government?
A. It does. Thank you.
Q. So you did tell the government in your meetings with them
that in fact Mr. Je was out hustling to get merchants onto the
platform, right?
A. Yes.
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: Well, we're just clarifying.
THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained.
Q. All right. So again, in your experience, at your time at
the exchange, you didn't see anything to suggest that people
weren't working hard to try to bring merchants onto the
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platform, right?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now they didn't always succeed, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And you believed that the team was spread a bit too
thin; is that fair to say?
A. The team was spread too thin?
Q. Yes.
A. I'm not sure that——that's not——I'm not sure that was
something that I would have said. I thought there was too many
people.
Q. Okay. Well, let's see if we can refresh your recollection.
A. Okay.
MR. SCHIRICK: Bring up that same document.
Just give me one moment.
THE COURT: The question is not whether the document
says that; the question is whether the document refreshes your
recollection that you said that.
THE WITNESS: Understood, your Honor.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you. So can we please
publish only for the parties, the Court, and the witness, the
document.
And if we could blow it up and just highlight the
relevant portion, please.
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Do you see that, Mr. Brown?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Now I'm going to show you another excerpt here.
Just give us one second.
Okay. Thanks for your patience. I think we have it
now.
Mr. Brown, this is the same document but a different
entry, just for your context?
MR. HORTON: Sorry. Is there a question pending?
THE COURT: The document is up. I think the question
is whether this refreshes his recollection.
MR. SCHIRICK: Yes.
A. It does refresh it, but it's——it's in the context of the
techs team, of the tech team.
Q. Fair enough. I mean, I hadn't asked that question, but
yes, I understand.
The point was, as you told the government, they
were——you believed that the tech team was spread too thin,
right?
A. Early on, yes.
THE COURT: You said in the context of the tech team
as opposed to what?
THE WITNESS: The overall——the overall staff was
bloated. So the marketing staff, other departments were top
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
heavy.
Q. Okay. And the tech team was spread too thin, and they were
biting off more than you thought they could chew by trying to
build a whole ecosystem, right?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Okay. Now again, you didn't see anything in your time at
the exchange to suggest that that tech team wasn't working in
good faith to build out that ecosystem.
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered, your Honor.
MR. SCHIRICK: Well, we're on the tech team now, your
Honor. I think it's a different question.
THE COURT: You can answer as to the tech team.
A. Could you repeat that one more time.
Q. Sure. So you didn't see anything at your time at the
exchange that suggested that the tech team wasn't working as
hard as it could to build out the ecosystem, right?
A. That's correct. That's correct.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, if it makes sense to the
Court, I think before I move on to another topic, it might be a
good time.
THE COURT: All righty. It's 2:29. We'll take our
break now and return at 3:00.
Remember, don't discuss the case amongst yourselves or
with anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case in
your presence. Don't read, watch, or listen to anything from
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O6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross
any source that touches on the subject matter of this case.
Sir, you may step out of the courtroom. Don't discuss
your testimony.
(Jury not present)
(Witness not present)
THE COURT: Is there anything before we have our
break?
MR. HORTON: Just a brief housekeeping issue, your
Honor. It would be helpful to know, for witness scheduling
purposes, if the defense has an estimate for how long the rest
of the cross is going to last.
THE COURT: How long the cross will last?
MR. HORTON: That's right.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, my best estimate at this
point is maybe another 45 minutes.
THE COURT: All righty. See you later.
(Recess)
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: Please have the jurors brought in.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Please be seated. Remember that you're
still under oath. You may continue the cross-examination.
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Mr. Brown, you testified on direct about white papers. Do
you recall that?
A. I do.
Q. And I believe you testified, and you'll correct me if I'm
wrong, that white papers are sort of an industry custom thing
to issue before you issue tokens, right?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you worked on the white paper for HCN?
A. Yes.
Q. And for HDO?
A. That's true.
Q. And if we could just please pull up the April 2021 white
paper for HDO. I believe it's GXBR-190.
Just to remind the jury, HDO is the cash back token
that we talked about earlier, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the process of writing these white papers was quite a
process, right?
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A. It was.
Q. It took about 10 or 11 months; is that fair to say?
A. Very arduous, yes.
Q. And you had a significant hand in drafting this, right?
A. Yes.
Q. You worked with others, but you had a significant part?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's just take a look if we could at, it's the page with
the Bates stamp ending in 9898.
While we pull that up, Mr. Brown, this is dated April
2021, right?
A. Yes.
Q. It's dated April 2021. And this is around the time of the
very first sort of private token offering, right; is that fair
to say?
A. That's fair to say.
Q. Cause there was, before November 2021, which we'll come to
in a second, there was just a private sale to kind of friends
and family, right, fair to say?
A. Yes.
Q. So this paper is issued in connection with that private
sale, fair, or at least around the same time?
A. Around the same time.
Q. There's going to be a sale, so you put out information
about what's being sold?
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A. That's true.
Q. Now we're at this page here, and if you could see at the
top it says the Himalaya Dollar solution. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And has this been published to the jury? Yes. All right.
I'm going to read a short passage, and you let me know
if I get it right. Third paragraph down beginning with the
word Members.
Members of the Himalaya Exchange will be able to
participate in an issuance of the Himalaya Dollar through the
purchase of HDO credits through the Himalaya Exchange. Do you
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then moving down two paragraphs to the sentence
beginning in the middle if the market. You see here it says,
If the market for HDO credits experiences significant liquidity
shortfall, the issuer will have the ability to use the funds in
the reserve to provide liquidity support. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then moving down another two paragraphs to the sentence
that begins, In addition. In addition to the trading solution
benefits, HDO credits are also designed for use through the
"Himalaya pay app." The Himalaya pay app, which will be
launched during phase three, will allow members to use HDO
credits to offer domestic and cross-broader payments to
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merchants who accept payment for good and services through
Himalaya pay within the Himalaya ecosystem. It defines
Himalaya Ecosystem. Members will also be able to make
transfers of HDO credits from their Himalaya pay account to the
Himalaya pay accounts of other members. did I read that
correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is it fair to say that this describes the HDO credit
system that you and I discussed earlier today?
A. That's fair.
Q. And is it also fair to say that what we just read describes
the anticipated launch of the H Pay app?
A. Yes.
Q. If we could just move to the next page, please.
At the top it says Roll Out. You see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And this just generally speaking, this slide or page from
the white paper shows the sort of phased roll out of the
ecosystem; is that fair?
A. Yes, that's fair.
Q. In fact it says right there on the top of the left what the
anticipated schedule for the phase roll out is, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's read one there. It says, Himalaya Exchange prelaunch
and launch of HDO, private placement participants. Just to
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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pause there, do you understand that to mean the private sale
that you and I were just talking about a second ago?
A. I understand, yes.
Q. It says, Private placement participants may apply to open a
Himalaya Exchange account and complete KYC procedures following
opening of an account, private placement participants may top
up their account by purchasing Himalaya dollar credits with USD
on a 1:1 ratio.
If we zoom out just go to two, please, under Himalaya
Coin launch. Do you understand that Himalaya Coin is HCN?
A. Yes.
Q. And there it says that registration period for private
placement participants expires. Private placement participants
may purchase HCN credits up to their allocated amount?
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, may we have a second to
confer with defense counsel.
THE COURT: Yes.
(Counsel conferred)
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.
Q. And then if we go to arrow three it says, Full Himalaya
Exchange and Himalaya Pay app launch. Under that it says,
Members make commence trading HDO, HCN and other crypto asset
credits through their account on the Himalaya Exchange. The
Himalaya Exchange is open to the public for registration and
trading. The Himalaya pay app will enable members to start
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sending and receiving payments globally. And again, that
describes the anticipated roll out of H pay app?
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, may we approach? There's an
observation.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
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(At the sidebar)
MR. HORTON: Your Honor will recall that during
Mr. Robert's testimony a week ago had an objection to the
purposes of for which the defense was offering this white
paper, and there was a ruling from the Court that they couldn't
come in for its truth. They could use the white paper to ask,
we could go to Mr. Robert's the same as Mr. Brown, non-hearsay
questions about the document, but not use it to sort of assert
to the jury that so and so is true. I spoke to Mr. Schirick to
say that we anticipated in his questions rather than the use of
the document because it's mostly reading the document as
opposed to questions, we're veering into the territory that we
understood was set aside with the Court's ruling last week. We
think that reading the document over and over again with this
witness crosses that line that the Court set.
THE COURT: So are you asking for a limiting
instruction?
MR. HORTON: Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: We're offering this for a non-hearsay
purpose. We're just offering it for the fact that it was said.
It's relevant to -- directly relevant to materiality because we
will argue that this was a disclosure of the way that the
system actually worked. The government will argue that by
saying these tokens were crypto that that was somehow
misleading, and we're entitled to be able to put this in.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Again, for non-hearsay purpose of showing that this was in fact
said and a disclosure was made.
THE COURT: Are you saying that the document does not
describe the asset as crypto?
MR. SCHIRICK: That is a true statement. It's not
only that, though, your Honor, yes.
THE COURT: But you're not seeking to offer it for its
truth?
MR. SCHIRICK: I don't think we need to offer it for
its truth. The statements that are statements of anticipated
events, of upcoming events are also being offered simply for
the fact that they were disclosed.
MS. SHROFF: Or made.
MR. SCHIRICK: It's also relevant because they're
obviously going to argue that Mr. Guo through some series of
other people intended to mislead folks by saying it's crypto
when it wasn't, so we're entitled to bring this in to show that
there wasn't any intent to deceive.
MR. HORTON: There wasn't a question about, Mr. Brown,
were these things actually said. Mr. Brown, what was the
effect on you of these things non-hearsay purpose. This
document is in evidence. It came in last week, and it came a
week ago, a lot has happened at trial with a limiting
instruction. We think it would be appropriate given the amount
of time being spent on the same document with a similar witness
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to again remind the jury that that's how this document should
be viewed.
THE COURT: That's what I'll do.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, just for purposes of
efficiency, I'm going to go through subsequent white papers,
hopefully very quickly, but there are three more and I will try
to cover them quickly.
THE COURT: Quickly.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
(In open court; jury present)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, I want you to
understand that this document is not being offered for its
truth. It's only being offered for the fact that it exists and
those statements were made.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. I've forgotten where we were. I think we were on phase two
describing Himalaya pay out.
My question, Mr. Brown, is that did I accurately read
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were the author of this, in part, of this document,
right?
A. In part.
Q. If we can move to page 9901. And if I can just focus your
attention on the last paragraph of this page beginning, In
addition.
It says, In addition following the launch of the
Himalaya pay app, members will be able to use HDO credits to
offer payment to merchants who can accept payment for goods and
services through the Himalaya pay app to make transfers of HDO
credits from their Himalaya pay account to the Himalaya pay
accounts of other members. When the planned infrastructure
upgrade to a hybrid Ethereum and Quorum blockchain platform is
completed, we believe that the Himalaya pay out will provide
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
significant benefits against pure offerings and represent a
highly scalable solution.
Did I read that correctly?
A. You did.
Q. Let's go to page 9903, please.
At the top first paragraph reads: Following
commencement of phase three roll out, members will be able to
make a request to exchange credits to their Himalaya Exchange
account for the corresponding crypto assets which if approved
by the Himalaya Exchange would then be transferred to a
member's external wallet address.
Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, as a co-author of this April 2021 HDO white paper, did
you believe those statements were true when they were made?
Anything incorrect in that?
A. No.
Q. Let's move to --
THE COURT: There were two questions there. The first
was, did you consider that statement to be true, and so he
needs to answer both questions.
MR. SCHIRICK: I believe he answered the second
question, your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't know that he answered both
questions, and I'd like him to answer both questions.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
MR. SCHIRICK: I jumped the gun.
Q. The question is, did you believe that what we just read to
be true at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. And nothing incorrect in there, right?
A. Nothing incorrect.
Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if we could please pull up what's
been marked as GXAS-13. This is just for the witness, the
Court and the parties, please.
Mr. Brown, do you recognize this document?
A. I do.
Q. Is this a copy of the Himalaya Coin HCN white paper for
April of 2021?
A. It appears so, yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we move this document or
offer this document into evidence consistent with the Court's
prior instruction.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
MR. HORTON: No objection provided there's a similar
instruction given to the nature of the document.
THE COURT: So how many of these similar documents do
you have?
MR. SCHIRICK: Three more including this one.
THE COURT: So the instruction that I just gave you
that these documents are not being offered for their truth, but
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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merely for the fact that they existed. We'll leave it at that.
That applies to a total of four documents.
MR. SCHIRICK: And we're on the second here. Now can
we please publish to the jury, your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead. It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit AS-13 received in evidence)
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Now, Mr. Brown, you had a hand in co-authoring this paper
as well, right?
A. Yes.
Q. If we can please go to page seven. Just to draw your
attention to the second paragraph beginning participation. It
says, Participation in the issuance of the Himalaya Coins will
only be available to certain members of the Himalaya Exchange a
new digital asset exchange which is at the heart of our mission
to create a new digital financial system. The operation of the
Himalaya Exchange and associated application and infrastructure
will be facilitated through the use of "credits." Credits
within the system will correspond to a particular type of
crypto asset.
Did I read that correctly?
A. You did.
Q. Now, if we go down to the second to last paragraph on the
same page beginning the Himalaya Ecosystem.
It reads, A Himalaya Ecosystem is being developed
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
through partnerships with businesses who it is anticipated will
provide access to their products and services. The creation
and development of the Himalaya Ecosystem is intended to
support the commercial value proposition of HCN and HCN credits
incentivizing adoption and use.
Did I read that correctly?
A. You did.
Q. Let's go to page nine, please. You can see here this is
substantially similar to the chart we just looked at, the
previous document?
A. Right.
Q. If we can agree on that, we can spare everybody having to
read it. If you go to page 11 and focusing on that last
paragraph and just the last sentence of that last paragraph
beginning, When the planned infrastructure upgrade to a hybrid
ethereum and Quorum blockchain platform is completed, we
believe the Himalaya pay app will provide significant benefits
against peer offerings and represent a highly scalable
solution. Is that the same HDO April 2021 white paper?
A. Seems similar.
Q. Now, same question, Mr. Brown, when you helped to co-author
this document, you believed everything that was stated in this
document was accurate; is that right?
A. I'm not sure that is right, no.
Q. What in this document is different from the earlier
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
document you looked at?
A. So the question was, Is this document the same as the one
we just looked at?
Q. No. The question was whether this document, you believe
this document to be accurate at the time you co-authored it?
A. All of this verbiage is not anything that I wrote.
Q. My question is different. At the time you co-authored
this, did you believe that the statements in this document were
accurate?
MR. HORTON: Objection, mischaracterizes his
testimony.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm not sure I characterized his
testimony.
MR. HORTON: The statement about co-authorship.
THE COURT: You threw in at the time he co-authored.
He said he did not, so the question needs to be limited to, At
the time, did you believe what was written in this document to
be true.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, respectfully, I believe he
did testify that he co-authored this.
THE COURT: But this section I thought he said this
was not correct.
MR. SCHIRICK: He said some verbiage.
THE COURT: Did you write a portion of the sentence
that we're looking at right now?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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THE WITNESS: I did not.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, may we have a brief
sidebar.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
(At the sidebar)
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, candidly, your Honor, I was
trying to be more efficient to find a way to get this to show
it to the witness and ask if certain statements are accurate at
the time. And if I can't do it this way, I may have to do it
the slow way, which I preferred not to do obviously for
everyone's sake.
MR. FINKEL: Is that a threat?
MR. SCHIRICK: No, I just want to be candid. I can
move quickly through the part that I want to highlight. I
don't need him to affirm everything. I just need him to affirm
certain questions.
THE COURT: There's a question out there, did he
believe those statements in that section to be true at the
time.
MR. SCHIRICK: I think I asked him, I may be wrong, I
thought I asked him about the entire document. And I think
this is where we're running into -- he's going to say, he
wasn't responsible for the entire document, so I'm going to
have to go piece by piece then. I'm open to suggestion. I'm
not sure --
THE COURT: You use those words, "entire document?"
MR. SCHIRICK: I said what's in this document, do you
believe what's in this document to be accurate. Do you believe
this document to be co-authored by --
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: He said yes?
MR. SCHIRICK: He said he wasn't responsible for
portions of it.
MR. HORTON: It's a fact. It is true. That's what
he's saying. He didn't write certain pieces that are being
shown to him.
MR. SCHIRICK: Be careful. He didn't say pieces that
were shown to him. I asked him about the entire document.
MR. HORTON: I think you showed him an excerpt and he
said I did not. He said I did not.
MR. SCHIRICK: We can have the record read back.
(Record was read)
THE COURT: Back on the record. He is disavowing at
least a portion of it, and it's not proper to characterize it
in another way.
MR. SCHIRICK: I can take it piece by piece and ask
him statement by statement which is really what I want to do.
Again, your Honor, I was looking to save time.
MR. FINKEL: I think what going to come up, the
document that he authored, he doesn't believe he authored all
of it. If he wants to ask, do you believe everything in this
document is accurate, I suppose he could ask that question. I
don't know. Mr. Brown would need to review it. We can't, for
efficiency, decide that the witness should just adopt something
that the defense wants him to adopt. I don't think that's
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appropriate.
MR. SCHIRICK: Nobody is implying that. I'm saying I
would reluctantly go back and do it in pieces because I think
in pieces comes out differently. He's saying he didn't do the
whole document.
THE COURT: I don't know any other way of doing it.
(Continued on next page)
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
(In open court; jury present)
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. If we could please go back to page nine. Actually, I'm
sorry. Let's make it page ten.
Now, Mr. Brown, if I could focus you on the third
paragraph down from the top beginning credits. You see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It says, Credit can only be used on the Himalaya Exchange
within the Himalaya Ecosystem representing a right to
participate in trading on the Himalaya Exchange and do not
carry any right to require their exchange for fiat currency on
crypto assets. A member may make a request to the Himalaya
Exchange to exchange credits on their account and receive a
transfer of corresponding crypto assets to their external
wallet addresses.
Did I read that accurately?
A. I believe you did.
Q. And if we can now go to page seven, second paragraph. We
read this earlier. Participation in the issuance of the
Himalaya Coins will only be available to certain members of the
Himalaya Exchange, a new digital asset exchange which is at the
heart of our mission to create a new digital financial system,
the Himalaya Exchange, the operation of the Himalaya Exchange
and associated applications and infrastructure will be
facilitated through the use of credits. Credits within the
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system will correspond to a particular type of crypto asset.
Did I read that correctly?
A. You did.
Q. At the time this was written in April of 2021, did you
believe that to be an accurate statement about the functioning
of the credit system?
A. Yes.
Q. If we could go down in the same document to the second to
last paragraph, please, beginning the Himalaya Ecosystem. It
says here, the Himalaya Ecosystem is being developed through
partnerships with businesses who it is anticipated will provide
access to the products and services. The creation and
development of the Himalaya Ecosystem is intended to support
the commercial value proposition of HCN and HCN credits
incentivizing adoption and use.
Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. And understanding that this is a statement of future
intention, at the time this was made in April of 2021, did you
believe --
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, objection to the testimony
including legal conclusions.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm happy to do it in pieces.
MR. HORTON: It's not the size of the testimony. It's
the fact that it's testimony.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: Don't ask him for legal conclusions. He's
not a lawyer.
MR. HORTON: The objection is that counsel is stating
legal conclusions and testifying about them not even asking a
question.
THE COURT: And, Mr. Schirick, you're not to state
legal conclusion.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. The question is, what do you understand hereby the
ecosystem is being developed?
A. I understand that the ecosystem is being built out.
Q. Right. And it's in process, right?
A. According to that wording, yes.
Q. As you and I talked about earlier before the lunch break,
it was in fact being worked on, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So is that an accurate statement of what was being worked
on at the time in April of 2021?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if we could please go to Government Exhibit AS-12.
Mr. Brown, do you recognize this document?
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's the white paper for the Himalaya Coin.
Q. And what's the date on this document?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
A. That would be January 2022.
Q. And were you a co-author of this white paper?
A. I would say at this point I pretty much given up the pen to
the attorneys.
Q. So did you participate in drafting this in any way?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: That's a different question.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
A. I would have to see the whole document to comment on that.
Q. Sure. We're happy to just flip through it briefly. I'm
happy to focus you on a particular page if that would be
helpful?
A. If there's any page about the Quorum and ethereum ecosystem
that would have been the only thing that I wrote.
Q. Let's focus on page eight if you don't mind. It's halfway
down on this page, the sentence beginning, The Himalaya
Exchange is intended.
It says, The Himalaya Exchange is intended to provide
high levels of liquidity and credits traded on the platform and
other crypto assets. Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. And this document still describes in January of 2022 the
system at the exchange as being one based on credits, right?
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, I don't believe this document
is in evidence. I don't believe it's been offered.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: So it needs to have a foundation first.
Q. Do you recognize this document?
MR. HORTON: To be clear, we have no objection subject
to the same instruction given that it's a similar document.
THE COURT: So have you offered it to be admitted?
MR. SCHIRICK: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: So it's admitted.
(Government's Exhibit AS-12 received in evidence)
THE COURT: Is there an objection to this item?
MR. HORTON: No objection, asking for an instruction
given the substantially similar nature of this document.
THE COURT: You may go ahead.
MR. SCHIRICK: If this isn't published to the jury,
can we publish to the jury.
Q. My question is that at this point in time January of 2022,
the white paper still describes the system that the exchange is
operating on as a credit system, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Hopefully lastly if we can turn to, again just for Court,
the witness and the parties Government Exhibit AS-18.
Mr. Brown, do you recognize this document?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize it as the January 2022 white paper for the
Himalaya Dollar HDO?
A. I do.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
MR. SCHIRICK: We offer this document AS-18 into
evidence.
MR. HORTON: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
MR. HORTON: Excuse me. No objection subject to the
same limitation.
THE COURT: Understood.
(Government's Exhibit AS-18 received in evidence)
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. If we could quickly go to page eight in the third paragraph
from the top beginning, Members of the Himalaya Exchange will
be able to participate in the issuance of Himalaya Dollar
through the purchase of the HDO credits through the Himalaya
Exchange. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it true at this point in time January of 2022 when this
document is put on -- withdrawn.
You testified earlier that the white papers were put
on the Himalaya Exchange website, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that applies to all of the white papers that we looked
at here in the last few minutes, right?
A. I'm not sure about that.
Q. But it was the practice to put the final white papers on
the Himalaya Exchange website, right?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
A. It was the practice.
Q. And you don't have any reason to believe that these weren't
posted to the website consistent with that practice, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection, asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Would you consider posting something to -- withdrawn.
Is it fair to say that January of 2022 the white paper
that we just reviewed that is in evidence as GXAS-18 continues
to describe the Himalaya Exchange system as one that's based on
credits?
A. That's fair, counsel.
Q. If we can just go to page 11, the final paragraph there,
just to blow that up.
And I believe, Mr. Brown, you testified before that
you recall that your role in drafting the white papers at this
point in time would have been focused on descriptions of
Quorum; is that fair?
A. Yes, that's fair.
Q. So I'm going to read this paragraph. It says, In addition,
following the launch of the Himalaya pay app, members will be
able to use HDO credits to offer payments to merchants who
accept payment for goods and services through the Himalaya pay
app or make transfers of HDO credits from their Himalaya pay
account to the Himalaya pay accounts of other members. When
the planned infrastructure upgrade to a hybrid ethereum and
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Quorum blockchain platform is completed, we believe that the
Himalaya pay app will provide significant benefits against peer
offerings and represent a highly scalable solution.
Did I read that right?
A. You read that right.
Q. Do you recognize this as, a portion of this document, to
which you contributed as an author?
A. No, that is not true.
Q. Is there some other portion that relates to Quorum that you
believe you contributed to?
A. I believe in previous white papers there was a whole
section devoted to Quorum.
Q. And you were working on Quorum, right?
A. Well, I was working on the white paper around Quorum, yes.
Q. The Exchange was working on Quorum, right, during your time
there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it fair to say that the paragraph that we just read here
at the bottom of page 11 of this document that's in evidence is
an accurate statement of what was happening at the Exchange at
the time this was published?
A. It is fair, yes.
Q. Thank you. I believe you testified that on direct that
there was no difference between G Coin and H Coin. Do you
recall that?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
A. I do.
Q. Did you ever write a white paper for G Coin?
A. I may have contributed to one, yes.
Q. Was one ever finalized?
A. Not to my knowledge or my recollection.
Q. Did G Coin ever exist?
A. It did not.
Q. Was G Coin ever anything more than a concept?
A. Yeah, it was a concept of H Coin.
Q. Try to answer my question. Was G Coin ever anything more
than a concept?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHIRICK: Move to strike, your Honor.
THE COURT: It was already asked and answered.
MR. SCHIRICK: Move to strike as non-responsive. The
prior answer was non-responsive.
MR. HORTON: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. When you say there's no difference between G Coin and
H Coin, do you mean that the G Coin concept became the H Coin
later?
A. I'm not sure that's entirely true either.
Q. So G Coin was never created, right?
A. No, it was never created.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Q. Right. And H Coin was the thing you worked on, right?
A. Could you repeat that.
Q. H Coin was the thing that you worked on, right?
A. It was, yes.
Q. Not G Coin, just to draw a distinction between the two?
A. For the first month or so, we were calling H Coin G Coin.
Q. So it was renamed?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. But G Coin never became a reality,
right?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now, you testified that on direct that your work at the
Exchange was not what you expected at the time that you joined,
right?
A. That's right.
Q. But you understood that the long-term goal of what the
Exchange was trying to build was consistent with what you
expected, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection, we've been through this, your
Honor.
MR. SCHIRICK: This is as to his expectation.
THE COURT: You're asking whether the long-term goal
was consistent with what, his expectation?
MR. SCHIRICK: Correct, of what the Exchange was going
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
to build.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I didn't expect it to build to be credits.
Q. In the long-term as we've discussed, it wasn't going to be
credits, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
MR. SCHIRICK: I have to be able to ask the question.
THE COURT: You can answer that question.
A. That's right.
Q. So you didn't expect it to be a credit system, but you also
understood that eventually it was going to move to a real
crypto system that was not based on credits in your view,
right?
A. That's right.
Q. So that would have been consistent with your expectation,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So therefore the question is, the long-term plan of what
Himalaya Exchange was building was consistent with your
expectations?
It was just the short-term plan that was inconsistent,
right?
MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: So there's a lot of questions in there.
Q. Isn't it true that the long-term plan of what the Himalaya
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Exchange was building was consistent with your expectation of
what they were going to build when you joined?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now, you were frustrated that it was taking longer than you
wanted to bring about the developments in the Himalaya
Exchange; is that fair?
A. That is fair.
Q. And you testified I believe on direct that you weren't
allowed access to some of the trading data from the Exchange;
is that right?
A. I wasn't allowed access to any data.
Q. Can you answer my question.
A. Yes.
Q. The trading data?
A. The trading data.
Q. You never asked William Je for access to that trading data,
right, as you testified to on direct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And Mr. Je wasn't really running that as you said, right?
A. Could you ask that question again.
Q. Sure. I believe you testified on direct that Mr. Je wasn't
really running the trading data. He wasn't really the owner of
the trading data, right?
A. That's fair. That was the CISO.
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3800
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Q. Right.
A. Azeem.
Q. Who was in charge of information and security?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he was in your view sort of hyper-security conscious,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't think that Mr. Je was keeping anything from you,
right, in terms of the trading data because Mr. Azeem was
hyper-security conscious?
A. I found it odd that I couldn't have a peak at what was
going on.
Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Je say that you, Mr. Brown, couldn't
have a peak?
MR. HORTON: Objection, calls for hearsay.
Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Je ever told Mr. Azeem
not to show you the data?
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. Could you repeat that one more time.
Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Je ever told Azeem not to
show you the data?
He never told Mr. Azeem not to show you the data,
correct?
MR. HORTON: Objection, two questions.
THE COURT: If you'll just ask the main question.
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3801
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Q. To your knowledge Mr. Je never told Mr. Azeem not to show
you the data, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you testified earlier a point came when you were
promoted to CEO?
A. That's right.
Q. And this was roughly in the spring of 2021?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was at a stakeholders meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And were all of the heads of the departments for the
Exchange there?
A. They were.
Q. The folks that we talked about before as being kind of the
senior group, right?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. And you had the impression that there were some other folks
in that senior group who wanted that CEO job, right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And you had the impression that they were maybe bugging
Mr. Je to get that CEO job, right?
A. I'm not so sure "bugging" is the correct word. They were
overzealous maybe.
Q. Fair enough. And prior to that there was no CEO role,
right, it was just Mr. Je effectively in control?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
A. That's correct, counsel.
Q. And you believe that you made CEO because you were fluent
in the language of blockchain, right?
A. No. No.
Q. Do you recall telling the government that you believed that
you were made CEO because in part you were fluent in the area
of blockchain?
A. No. I recall saying that Mr. Je was impressed with some of
the things I had done here in the states and that was one of
the reasons.
Q. And you also understood that in your view one of the
reasons he promoted you to CEO was because of your willingness
to relocate if necessary?
A. That's fair.
Q. Within limits. We understand there are some things were
out of bounds.
A. Fair.
Q. There were real reasons for you to be made CEO, right?
Those are two reasons, right?
A. Those are two.
Q. And now you testified you don't really feel like you're CEO
material?
A. That's true.
Q. Currently you have your own company, right?
A. Yes, consulting company.
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3803
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
Q. You're the CEO of that company?
A. It's a one man company, so I'm not really sure. A lot of
people like to say they're CEO of a one man company. I don't
really make that boast.
Q. There's nobody else in charge?
A. Well, there's no one to run anything.
Q. During the time that, the entire time you were at the
Himalaya Exchange, is it true you never had any substantive
interactions with Mr. Guo?
A. That's true.
Q. And the only time you interacted with him was when he
toasted you on a live stream, right?
A. That's true.
Q. You never spoke to Mr. Guo ever aside from that?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q. And he never gave you any management direction whatsoever,
right.
A. No.
Q. Now, did a time come when the smart contracts for HCN and
HDO were created?
A. There were.
Q. And those were published to the blockchain, right?
A. Yes, they would have been.
Q. And they were publicly available for review as a result of
being published to the blockchain, right?
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3804
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
A. Could you repeat that.
Q. Were the smart contracts for HCN and HDO publicly available
for review because they were on the blockchain?
A. I'm not sure that's accurate. I believe the smart contract
work was testing at the time.
Q. I didn't give you a time. My question is --
A. Well, at any time in my tenure there.
Q. Are you familiar with Ether scan?
A. Yes.
Q. And you can use Ether scan to check to see if a smart
contract is on the blockchain?
A. You can.
Q. Have you ever used Ether scan to check if the smart
contract for HCN or HDO were on a blockchain?
A. I did not.
Q. Now, Himalaya had these smart contracts audited by a
software code expert, right?
A. Yes, if you call Certek an expert.
Q. Are they not -- are Certek not a recognized expert in
software security?
A. No longer.
Q. At the time?
A. At the time it was suspect too because of the FTX crash.
Q. Did in fact Himalaya hire Certek to audit the smart
contracts for HCN and HDO?
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3805
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
A. They did.
Q. In fact Certek made recommended changes to the smart
contracts of HCN and HDO, right?
A. I believe so. I wasn't privy to it.
Q. Do you understand that those smart contracts for HCN and
HDO are upgradeable?
A. I had no knowledge of that, but the potential to be
upgradeable through solidity is there.
Q. Right, as a matter --
A. It's inherently.
Q. They're inherently upgradeable?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I just want to talk briefly about the KYC process at
the exchange.
What does KYC stand for?
A. Know Your Customer.
Q. And in your view the on-boarding of an Exchange customer
was a pretty time intensive thing?
A. It's very arduous.
Q. Very arduous. And I think there was something like 16
questions that customers had to go through in order to sign up?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you recall telling the government in your view most
people had trouble filling out more than four fields of the 16?
A. Yeah, that's an industry understanding that after four
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross
fields, you begin to get a dropoff in people signing up.
Q. And even if someone did manage to fill out all of the
fields, they still had to go through Bitgo's onboard process,
right?
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, we object to the line of
questioning beyond the scope of direct of KYC and on-boarding.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm happy to --
THE COURT: I don't remember anything about customers
signing up, so this is beyond the scope.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm happy to call him as my
own witness if we need to. This goes to the general operations
of the Exchange which I think is well inbounds given
Mr. Brown's direct testimony.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. So the question is, even if someone did fill out all
fields, all 16 fields, they still had to get through Bitgo's
onboard process, right?
A. I don't recall if Bitgo was part of that 16 or not, but
Bitgo was involved in that, yes.
Q. Okay. So whether they were part of the 16 or followed the
16, they were involved in the process somehow.
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And do you recall that the Bitgo onboarding process
required customers to take a picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And it turned out that a lot of people had trouble
taking pictures of their IDs when they were foreign IDs, right?
A. That's right.
Q. By foreign, I mean non-U.S. IDs, right?
A. That's accurate.
Q. And that gave the technology fits, right?
A. It did.
Q. Okay. And because the technology wasn't good at handling
Mandarin characters in particular, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And also because the software was designed for
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
like a first name-last name, and in China, at least, that is
typically switched.
A. Exactly.
Q. And as a result of the arduous——to borrow your
phrase——onboarding process, it took customers sometimes a month
or more just to complete the paperwork, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. And you thought it should have taken something more
like 24 to 48 hours, right?
A. 20 minutes.
Q. Fair enough. Even shorter.
And you were concerned that people were getting
frustrated with it, right?
A. It was obvious.
Q. Okay. And there were calls to the 24/7 Mandarin-English
hotline about that, right?
A. Flooded the hotline.
Q. Okay. And one of the reasons that there were all of these
checks was because the exchange restricted users by geography,
right?
A. Can you repeat that.
Q. Yeah. I mean, sure. One of the reasons that there was all
of this process that we just talked about was because the
exchange restricted onboarding users from certain geographies.
A. Yeah, that's true.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. Okay. And the U.S. was one of those geographies, right?
A. It was.
Q. And Canada was too, right?
A. As well, yes.
Q. All right. And do you recall telling the government that
you believed that the exchange spent more money on these
compliance procedures than anything other than IT?
A. I don't recall saying that, no.
Q. Okay. Maybe we can refresh your recollection real quick.
Actually, withdrawn. Do you remember telling the
government during one of your meetings with them that you
thought the people at the exchange were overly compliant?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And your view was there was too much compliance,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. It was excessive.
A. Yes.
Q. And you recall telling the government that you thought the
exchange could have taken more customers.
A. I think that's true.
Q. Okay. Now let's just talk about marketing briefly.
The exchange——withdrawn.
In your view, the exchange was too conservative when
it came to its own marketing about its services and products,
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you felt the lawyers were making the decisions about
marketing, right?
A. I did.
MR. HORTON: Objection.
Q. Right. And they could have been doing much more marketing
but didn't, right?
A. They could have done some marketing, but didn't.
Q. Right. You felt like they did virtually none.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And the exchange was particularly diligent about not
letting——withdrawn. Sorry.
During your Wednesday meetings, which I believe were
the compliance meetings, there were discussions about customer
onboarding, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the committee——I'm sorry. Withdrawn.
At those meetings, the compliance folks would assess
the risk of onboarding particular customers, right?
A. I'm not sure if that's accurate.
Q. Okay. Well, what did the committee do with respect to
onboarding or what——withdrawn.
What did the committee do with respect to assessing
the risk of particular customers?
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3811
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. There's a process called regulatory mapping.
Q. Mm-hmm.
A. That's what we did.
Q. Okay. And you would assign customers who you were doing a
regulatory mapping for a risk score?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And in your view, this process was a good way of being able
to monitor who was buying and selling?
A. Can you repeat that again.
Q. And in your view, this risk scoring and regulatory mapping
process was a good way of having the exchange track who was
buying and selling.
A. No, no. I don't see the correlation there.
Q. Well, if only approved——withdrawn.
Only approved customers can buy and sell on the
exchange, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So in order to get onto the exchange, this
regulatory mapping process was designed to allow only trusted
customers onto the exchange, right?
A. Yes, if you're referring to the risk scoring, yes. There
were certain——yes.
Q. Yeah. And again, that was another part, I think——you
correct me if I'm wrong——in your view that was a bit overly
restrictive, right?
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3812
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. It was. It had flaws.
Q. Okay. Now in the summer and fall of 2022, do you recall
that new registrations for the exchange started to decline?
A. I do recall that.
Q. Okay. And in your view this was due in part to the lack of
any marketing, right?
A. That's fair.
Q. And the problems with onboarding people, right?
A. The problems had been solved with onboarding at that point.
Q. But the excessive compliance, right?
A. No. That had kind of been filtered down too to where it
was——it was acceptable by me.
Q. Okay. So in your view it really came down to no marketing
that was being done by the exchange; that was responsible for
the decline.
A. No, that's not entirely true either.
Q. Was it partially true?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Was another part of it that the crypto market was
experiencing a contraction, so to speak?
A. That was a small part of it, yes.
Q. Okay. Now you testified on direct about the HCN launch in
November of 2021, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And your role in that, right; your role in the launch?
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3813
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. That's the video that we looked at, right?
A. Yeah, yeah.
Q. And you testified that you didn't like public speaking,
right?
A. Terrified.
Q. Right. You're doing great so far today.
But would you agree that we all have some aspects of
our job that we don't like; fair to say?
A. No. I think there's a few who love their job.
Q. Okay. Most have aspects of their job that they don't like,
right?
MR. HORTON: Objection to relevance, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now you remember telling the government that you were
pretty upset that the launch of HCN took as long as it did?
A. I'm not sure I used the word "upset," but if I did, yes.
Q. Okay. Well, I mean, you weren't particularly happy about
how long it took, right?
A. No. I thought——I thought that we could have come to market
much quicker.
Q. Okay. And actually, Mr. Je was unhappy too, right?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Yeah. About the pace, right?
A. Oh, my, he was.
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3814
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. Okay. Yeah. I get it.
And you understood that Mr. Je's focus was to get the
exchange up and running on the credit system and then continue
to develop it, right?
A. That's fair.
Q. That's——I'm sorry?
A. That's fair.
Q. That's fair, right? Okay. And you were continuing to
develop it, and in particular, working on the Quorum private
blockchain, right?
A. Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Now if we could just please pull
up GX 3401.
And we don't need to play the video; just the still,
please.
This was I believe admitted on direct.
Q. While we're waiting for that, I believe you testified on
direct that you thought the exchange wasn't quite ready to
launch, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And did you tell Mr. Je that you advised
against launching?
A. I did not.
Q. Okay. And isn't it true that sometimes businesses launch
and experience difficulty in their first weeks or months?
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3815
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
MR. HORTON: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Is it your experience that businesses, particularly
startups, when they first launch, experience difficulties in
the first weeks and months?
MR. HORTON: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Now you remember——
MR. SCHIRICK: Let's just leave that up. Sorry. Just
the still.
Q. Now you recall testifying that you believe you made false
statements in this video, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Because you said that Himalaya Exchange——withdrawn.
You said in this video that the trading happened on
the blockchain, and you believe that was misleading, right?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. Now you testified that you said that because you
didn't want to disrupt the launch of HCN, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you testified that you were just toeing the line, the
company line, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now no one in marketing told you to say that the
blockchain was going to be used for trading, right?
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3816
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. No one told me——could you repeat that again.
Q. Yeah. No one——I believe you testified that you got some
guidance from marketing before this video?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So my question is: No one in marketing told you to
say that the blockchain would be used for trading, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Right. And in fact, we just looked at all these white
papers that say that it's a credit system, right?
A. Right.
Q. Right. So people who had access to the internet could find
that out, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE COURT: You can answer.
A. Could you repeat that one more time.
Q. Sure. If you had access to the internet and those white
papers, you would know that the exchange used a credit system,
not the blockchain, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection as to what somebody else would
know.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Isn't it true that the white papers disclosed that the
exchange ran on a credit system, as we talked about earlier?
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, as the question indicated, we
have been through this. We've talked about it.
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3817
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
THE COURT: So you may ask him whether the document or
documents say that. You can ask him whether he believed those
words to be true.
Q. You testified earlier that the white papers we looked at
contained accurate statements about the exchange's use of a
credit system, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Cumulativeness, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Are you speaking about
portions of the white papers?
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, the portions I'm referring
to just relate to the HDO Credits, which is what I was focused
on. Just asking about the HDO credit system.
THE COURT: Well, then you would need to frame the
question that way.
MR. SCHIRICK: Sure.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. So the white papers that we reviewed earlier accurately
disclosed that the exchange used an HDO credit system, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Mischaracterizes his
testimony.
THE COURT: So——
MR. SCHIRICK: I didn't characterize his testimony. I
just asked him if it accurately——
THE COURT: You're asking for a legal conclusion. You
can ask him whether they stated those things; you can ask him
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3818
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
whether they believed those things to be true.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Did the white papers state that the exchange used an H——a
credit system?
A. They did.
Q. Okay. And to be clear, no one told you that you couldn't
say on the launch video that the exchange used a credit system,
right?
MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I believe I asked the other
question.
THE COURT: All right. So then you can answer. Go
ahead.
A. Could you repeat it one more time, please.
MR. SCHIRICK: Could the court reporter please read
that back.
THE COURT: Please.
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.
(Record read)
A. That's true.
Q. Right. So you said that, right? What you said wasn't
directed by anyone else at the exchange, right?
A. That's right.
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3819
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. Okay. Now we talked before about how users in the U.S.
were restricted from using the exchange, right?
A. Yes.
Q. They were prohibited, actually, from using the exchange,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you were not so happy about that, right?
A. That's true. It's fair.
Q. And you wanted to be able to participate in, again, to
borrow your phrase, the fruits of your labor, right, by
purchasing some HCN?
A. No. I felt that a typical startup, the founders receive
HCN without buying it.
Q. Okay. So, forget the use of the word "purchase." You
expected to be granted some tokens for your work at the
exchange, right?
A. Yeah, that's fair.
Q. Right. And you were frustrated that you didn't get any,
right?
A. Yeah, that's fair too.
Q. Okay. And you were frustrated because others did get some,
right, and you didn't?
A. Accurate.
Q. Okay. And isn't it true that you actually tried to get
your father-in-law signed up to be able to purchase some
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3820
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
tokens?
A. Yes, yes, we did try that.
Q. Okay. And it's because your father-in-law had a Venezuelan
ID, right?
A. He had a——he had a expired Venezuelan ID. That's why he
was unable to purchase it.
Q. Sure. And that's what happened, right? So you tried to
have him register with the exchange using that expired ID,
right?
A. Right.
Q. And in fact, you encountered issues, right?
A. Yes.
Q. You encountered issues because of that KYC process we
talked about before, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And then you actually had him call the 24/7 hotline that we
talked about, right?
A. The customer service line.
Q. Customer service line. Thank you. You had him call the
customer service line?
A. Yes.
Q. And tried to work these issues out so that he could
register to buy HCN, right?
A. I did.
Q. And ultimately it turned out, as you said, that the ID was
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3821
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
no longer valid, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And he couldn't; he couldn't purchase them, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. So you wanted to purchase them and you wanted to——
A. No. I didn't want to purchase them.
Q. Fair. You wanted to be granted them, right?
A. Can you——
Q. You testified before you expected a grant of HCN, right?
A. A grant?
Q. A grant, that you were given HCN.
A. Oh, yes, yes.
Q. Right. So you expected a grant of HCN, and when that
didn't work, you tried to go through your father-in-law to
purchase HCN.
A. No, that's not——that's not true. My father-in-law wanted
to purchase HCN.
Q. Oh, okay. Your father-in-law wanted to purchase HCN.
A. Yeah. It was $20 at that point. I wanted no part of it.
Q. Okay. Now at the point in time where you expected to have
these tokens and were upset you didn't get them, you couldn't
have thought the tokens were all that bad, right?
A. At $20, they were.
Q. Well, that's relative, right? You didn't want to pay $20
for it.
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3822
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. They were drastically overpriced.
Q. When they were first launched, you wanted them, at that
price, fair?
A. That's fair.
Q. Okay. How bad could they have been then? Couldn't have
been that bad, right?
A. No, no.
Q. Right. Wasn't that bad of a product, right?
A. No, it wasn't a bad product.
Q. Okay. Now let's talk about——
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry, your Honor. If I may just
have a moment.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you.
Q. Now, Mr. Brown, you recall testifying on direct about
something called Hummingbot?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And I think you testified that you were told by
David Fallon about Hummingbot, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And David Fallon was a senior person at Hamilton.
A. He was.
Q. Okay. And you testified that the bot is used in low-volume
situations, right?
A. That's one of its use cases.
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3823
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. Right. There's other use cases, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And Hummingbot is what, is referred to as an
automated matching engine, right?
A. Yes.
Q. It's an algorithmic trading tool, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And was everything that you knew about Hummingbot at this
point in time based on what Mr. Fallon told you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And Hummingbot really just matches buyers and
sellers, right; that's what it does?
A. I'm not——I'm not sure that——
Q. So you're not sure what Hummingbot does.
A. Well, I'm not sure that accurately describes it.
Q. You're not sure if its only use case is in low-volume
situations, right?
A. No, I'm not sure if it matches buyers and sellers.
Q. Okay. Now I'm going to ask a different question. You're
not sure that Hummingbot's only use case is in low-volume
situations, right?
A. Right.
Q. Right. It could have other use cases.
A. It could.
Q. Right. And so it's possible that Hummingbot was used for
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3824
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
something else other than related to a low-volume situation at
the exchange, right?
THE COURT: Don't ask him hypotheticals.
Q. Are you aware that Hummingbot is what's called open-source
software?
A. I am.
Q. All right. Now you also testified on direct about an SEC
settlement. Do you remember that?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And the fact that you raised the GTV settlement in a
meeting at the exchange, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. At this point the SEC settlement was public, right?
A. It was.
Q. Okay. And you testified about certain people's reactions
when you raised this issue in the meeting, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And you testified in particular about the head of
legal's reaction, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Now to be clear, you're just speculating about what
she knew or didn't know, right? You don't know for sure.
A. Could you repeat that?
Q. When you testified about what you read into her reaction,
you were speculating, right?
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3825
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. Yeah, right.
Q. Yeah. You were speculating, right? I mean, you can't know
what's in her head. That's how at least telepathy works these
days, in that it doesn't work.
MR. HORTON: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. Yeah, yeah, I can't read minds.
Q. Right. Okay. And you testified that you didn't ask
William Je about it, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. You were also shown a document that was marked
GX C405.
MR. SCHIRICK: Can we please pull that up and——
Q. Okay. And you testified that you saw this video at some
point, right? I'm sorry. Withdrawn. That you testified that
you saw this article at some point, right?
A. No.
MR. HORTON: Objection. Yeah, misstates the
testimony.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Did you see this live broadcast at some point?
A. I've never seen a live broadcast, no.
Q. You read an article summarizing it, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now when you read that article, you didn't raise
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3826
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
this issue with Mr. Je, right?
A. I hadn't seen this article until recently.
Q. Ah. So you hadn't seen this article at the time, right?
A. That's right.
Q. You hadn't even seen this article while you were still
working at the exchange, right?
A. That's right.
Q. You saw this article in preparation for your testimony?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. So there was no way you could have raised whatever
Mr. Guo was saying in this article with folks at the exchange,
right?
A. Not this article.
Q. Right. Okay. Now I'd just like to talk briefly about
Armanino. Do you recognize the name of that company?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And who were they?
A. They're a Silicon Valley auditing group.
Q. Okay. And were you involved in the decision to hire them?
A. I was not.
Q. Okay. And what was their role?
A. I believe it was to audit the coins.
Q. Okay. And they conducted in particular an audit of the HDO
reserves, right?
A. They did.
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3827
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. And if we can just bring up
GX BR208, please. 208A.
And just go to the next page.
Q. Now you recall being asked some questions about this on
direct?
A. I do, counsel.
Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that HDO——withdrawn.
Is it your understanding that this report that we're
looking at here relates to just HDO?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Doesn't relate to HCN, right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And this is an audit of the cash reserves backing
the HDO Credits, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And would you agree with me that this document
shows——this document, which is in evidence, shows that the
dollar reserves exceed the total amount of HDO Credits in
circulation; that is, the top number is bigger than the bottom,
than the number on the second line?
A. I agree with that.
Q. Okay. Now you were asked questions about whether this
document reflected any holdings of gold. Do you recall that?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. There's no reason that this document would show any
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3828
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
holdings in gold, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
Q. Well, we just established that it's an audit of the cash
reserves, so the question is: There's no reason that gold
would be reflected here.
THE COURT: You prepared this document.
MR. SCHIRICK: No. This is an auditor's report, your
Honor.
THE COURT: This is an auditor's report.
MR. SCHIRICK: Yes.
THE COURT: You're asking him whether an auditor
should include gold on the document?
MR. SCHIRICK: No. We established with the previous
questions, your Honor, that this report reflects cash reserves.
So my question is, he wouldn't expect to see gold on here
because it's cash only.
MR. HORTON: Objection. That misstates the testimony.
MR. SCHIRICK: I didn't ask him about his testimony.
MR. HORTON: Mr. Schirick stated that something was
established. That misstates the testimony.
THE COURT: You can ask him what he expected in the
auditor's report.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. I'll move on. That's fine, your
Honor.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
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3829
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. Do you know in fact whether HCN was backed by any gold?
A. I'm not privy to any——any gold being held at any time.
Q. Okay. You just don't know. You wouldn't have had access
to that, right?
A. I probably would have known that if we ever had gold, yes.
Q. You testified before that you were denied access to all
kinds of information, right?
A. Yes, but early on, there was discussions about gold——
Q. Right.
A. ——and the——what was going to happen then is the gold is
going to be kept in a third-party custodian and it was going to
have a live feed to it——
Q. Okay.
A. ——that was a public feed, so I would have had to have
private access.
Q. Let's talk about the gold for a second.
MR. HORTON: Objection. Excuse me. Objection to
cutting off the witness's answer to counsel's question.
THE COURT: Don't cut off the witness.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry. I didn't realize.
Apologies.
MR. HORTON: Can the witness finish the answer.
THE COURT: Would you read back the portion of the
answer that he gave, and then you can add if you were indeed
cut off.
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3830
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
(Record read)
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, that's accurate.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Okay. So let's just talk about the gold for a second.
Was it your understanding that the original intention
was to have HCN's——withdrawn.
Was it your understanding that the original intention
was to have 10 percent of the original value of HCN in gold
reserves?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. It didn't have anything to do with HDO, right?
A. Right.
Q. Right. Just HCN.
A. Correct.
Q. And just HCN's value at launch, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And just 10 percent, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now have you ever heard of something called Sharps
Pixley?
A. I don't believe I have.
Q. Okay. You also testified on direct about some seizures
that took place, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were asked whether you knew if the exchange
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
informed its customers about the seizure, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you aware that the exchange challenged the
seizure?
A. I was aware of that.
Q. That it hired lawyers to litigate the seizure?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And the fact of the seizure was public knowledge,
to your understanding, right?
A. I'm not sure I understood it was public knowledge.
Q. Did you ever take the time to Google it?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever look it up on a court docket?
A. I did not.
Q. Okay. Now you also testified about a loan and a yacht,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you were asked some questions about that, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now Mr. Je was the ultimate beneficial owner of
Himalaya, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And as the ultimate beneficial owner of Himalaya, if
he wanted to make a loan, he simply needed to follow the right
procedures to be able to make a loan, right?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And he followed the right procedures, to your
understanding, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. He brought it up for a vote to the board, right?
A. That's——I'm not sure. I believe it was a committee. I'm
not sure it was a board.
Q. Okay. So a committee, he brought it up for a vote to the
committee.
A. Yeah.
Q. And the committee deliberated, right?
A. That's right.
Q. And then the committee approved it, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Now sitting here today, you don't understand what
exactly that loan was for, do you?
A. I do. I do. I do understand what that loan was for.
Q. Do you understand that the loan was not to purchase a
yacht? Do you understand that?
A. I do not understand that, no.
Q. Okay. Now you also testified on direct about the Chinese
Communist Party. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And I believe you testified——and you'll correct me
if I'm wrong——that you didn't think that the Himalaya Exchange
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
had anything to do with being anti-CCP, right?
A. The exchange, no.
Q. Okay. And do you recall telling the government during your
interviews with them that you understood that the CCP
whistleblower movement was the basis for everything? Do you
recall that?
A. I do not recall that.
Q. Okay. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.
MR. SCHIRICK: If we could please bring up 3506, at
11. And again, just for the witness and the parties and the
Court.
Q. Okay. Is that displayed on your screen, Mr. Brown?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And we'll highlight it, and then just please read it
to yourself, not aloud.
MR. SCHIRICK: And you can keep going, Jorge.
Q. Okay. Now does that refresh your recollection that you
told the government that the whole CCP whistleblower thing was
the basis for everything?
A. It does.
Q. Okay. And in fact, William Je would talk about the
anti-CCP whistleblower movement at Hamilton, right?
A. Yes, he would.
Q. Right. And he told you about it, right?
A. He did.
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3834
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. Right. So you understood in fact that about 2/3 of the
exchange's customers were based in China, right, based on
information that was made available to you?
A. They were.
Q. Right? And that was the market, right, the main market?
A. 2/3 of the market.
Q. Right. So your testimony earlier today wasn't correct,
right?
A. I'm——I'm——I'm not sure, I'm not sure what——
Q. You testified earlier today that the anti-CCP movement had
nothing to do with the exchange, and then we just read, and you
just testified, that the anti-CCP movement was the basis of the
whole thing.
MR. HORTON: Objection. That's not a question.
Q. Right?
THE COURT: So I haven't——oh, okay.
MR. SCHIRICK: There we go.
THE COURT: That was the question, comma, right?
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, it's an argument from
counsel.
MR. SCHIRICK: It's two sets of testimony, your Honor.
I'm asking——
THE COURT: You can ask the question, and you can
answer.
MR. SCHIRICK: Could the court reporter please read
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3835
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
back the question.
(Record read)
A. Yes, but there's a distinction there. Himalaya Exchange
and everything that Miles Guo was saying on social media.
Q. Okay. So just to be clear, your testimony here is that the
anti-CCP movement and the whistleblower movement had nothing to
do with the exchange; you're sticking with that.
A. I'm sticking with the exchange was nonpolitical, yes.
Q. Okay. Now are you aware of something called a DDoS attack?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What's that?
A. That's when the servers for your web entities are attacked
to try to knock you off line.
Q. Right. Okay. Now did the exchange experience DDoS
attacks?
A. Yes.
Q. Yeah. How many would you say, if you can count?
A. I'm not sure of the real numbers. I'm not sure of the——of
the hard numbers.
Q. Okay. But it was an issue for the exchange, right?
A. It wasn't an issue because we had protections in place.
Q. Right. Well, Azeem, the security guy, was pretty focused
on the potential for DDoS attacks, right?
A. He was.
Q. Or other bad-party or bad-actor attacks, right?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. Did you understand that that had anything to do with the
anti-CCP whistleblower movement, based on your time at the
exchange?
A. It was talked about.
Q. Right. It was talked about as perhaps being why the
exchange was targeted, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Yeah. Right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And did you hire vendors to analyze the DDoS
attacks? When I say you, I mean the exchange.
A. Yes.
Q. And did one of these DDoS attacks happen in June of 2022,
if you recall?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Now you left the exchange in January of 2023, right?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. And after you left the Himalaya Exchange, did you
solicit Mr. Je for an investment in a new project you were
working on?
A. I did.
Q. Okay. And did you send him an agreement asking him for an
investment?
A. I did.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
Q. And how much money were you looking for?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Was it more or less than a hundred thousand dollars?
A. I'm going to say more.
Q. Was it more or less than a half a million dollars?
A. Probably right around there.
Q. Okay. And you discussed this investment with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Potential investment with him?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Yeah. But he never ended up getting back to you, right?
A. He didn't.
Q. Okay. All right. Now is it fair to say that in the two
months before you resigned from the exchange, you continued to
work on the long-term goals of the exchange?
A. I don't think so. I kind of checked out by then.
Q. So you were just collecting a paycheck?
A. Pretty much.
Q. Okay. So you don't recall whether, in December 2022 and
January 2023, you were continuing to work on things like the
merchant portal?
A. I don't recall the merchant portal.
Q. Okay. Or any self-custody options that may have been——
A. Yeah, self-custody options.
Q. Okay. All right. And what about HEU? Do you know what
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
that is?
A. Please——please state that again?
Q. Sure. What about HEU?
A. HEU. HEU. Oh, that——I believe that would have been
Himalaya Euro.
Q. Right. So it was another stablecoin that the exchange
planned to offer, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. Another token that it was going to add to the
tokens available for trading on the exchange.
A. Yes.
Q. Right. And even though you may have stopped working on the
exchange's long-term goals, is it your understanding that other
people at the exchange continued to work on those long-term
goals?
MR. HORTON: Objection.
MR. SCHIRICK: During his time.
THE COURT: You can say what you observed.
MR. HORTON: Objection. The question was about after
he had departed.
THE COURT: I did not hear you.
MR. HORTON: I said the question was about after he
departed, so——
MR. SCHIRICK: No. The question was——and I'm happy to
rephrase.
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3839
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. The question was: During the end of your tenure, while you
were still there, even if you were checked out and just
collecting a paycheck, as you testified, were other people at
the exchange still working on the long-term goals of the
exchange?
A. That's fair.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, you met with the government lawyers
on a number of occasions before your testimony here today?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many times, if you recall?
A. I believe it was four; four or five times.
Q. And would you be surprised to learn that in fact it was
nine times——including this morning, a total of ten?
A. No, not surprised.
Q. Okay. Sounds about right, right?
A. It sounds——it sounds like more, but——
Q. I'm sorry?
A. It sounds like more, but——
Q. Yeah, okay. Now in addition to the times that you met with
the government lawyers, your lawyer also had separate
conversations with them, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And your lawyer would——withdrawn.
I'm going to just caution you to be careful. I don't
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3840
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
want you to tell me about any communications that you had with
your lawyer, okay? I don't want you to recount those
conversations, okay? Does that make sense?
A. It does.
Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that your lawyer would report back
to you on his conversations with the government?
A. Yeah, that's fair to say.
Q. Okay. Now did a time come when you reached an agreement
with the government concerning its nonprosecution of you?
A. Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. If I may just have a moment,
your Honor.
Okay. Could we please show the witness what's been
marked as DX 60657.
Not the jury, just the witness.
MR. HORTON: Your Honor, we have no objection to its
admission.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. We move its admission, your
Honor.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit 60657 received in evidence)
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, do you recognize this as the
nonprosecution agreement that you reached with the government
here?
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3841
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
A. I do.
Q. Okay. Now I believe you testified at the beginning of your
direct that you believed this agreement covered you for your
involvement with Guo Media. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does Guo Media appear anywhere in this first paragraph?
A. It does not.
Q. Okay. So Guo Media was not included in this agreement,
right? You were just mistaken about that?
A. I was mistaken.
Q. Okay. Now this agreement covers you for your time working
at GTV Media and the Himalaya Exchange, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. For the period June 2020 to January 2023.
A. That's correct.
Q. Right. And do you believe that you committed any crimes
during that time?
A. I do.
Q. And is the crime that you're referring to the false
statements that you made in the video?
A. Yes.
Q. And those crimes were your crimes, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Because, as we covered before, no one told you to say what
you said on those videos; no one from the Himalaya Exchange
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross
told you to say what you said in those videos, right?
A. No one told me what to say on the videos, no.
Q. Right. Those words were your own; they weren't the
Himalaya Exchange's words, they weren't——right? No one at the
Himalaya Exchange——withdrawn.
Those words were your words, right?
A. They were.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Now if we can please flip to the
second page.
Q. Now who do you understand——withdrawn.
You understand, I believe you testified on direct,
that as long as you tell the truth today, you will get the
benefit of this nonprosecution agreement, right?
A. Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. And if we just blow up the
second to last paragraph there on the first sentence.
Q. And it reads, "It is understood that if the government has
determined that Brown has committed any crime after signing
this agreement. . ." Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. Now who gets to determine whether you tell the truth
here today?
A. I determine if I'm telling the truth.
Q. Who gets to determine whether this agreement remains in
force?
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3843
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
A. The government.
Q. Right. And if the government determines that you've lied,
then they can rip it up, right?
A. That's true.
Q. Right. So it's the government that determines whether you
told the truth here today, right?
MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. The facts determine if I tell the truth.
Q. At the end of the day, some human being is going to judge
those facts, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And who are the human beings who get to judge those facts?
The folks sitting right here, right?
A. No, that's——
MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All righty. Sustained.
MR. SCHIRICK: If I can have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. No further questions at this
time.
THE COURT: Redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. Mr. Brown, you testified earlier that when you spoke in
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
public on behalf of the exchange, you were toeing the company
line. Do you remember that?
A. I do.
Q. Where did you get the company line?
A. Well, the company line was spoken about in meetings and,
you know, what was proper to say and what wasn't.
Q. And the things you said in the interviews in public, was
that consistent with the company line?
A. It was.
Q. Who arranged those interviews for you?
A. Marketing did.
Q. And who did marketing report to?
A. William Je.
Q. You were asked some questions on cross about other people
at the Himalaya Exchange getting access to H Coin. Do you
remember that?
A. I do.
Q. Did those people get access to H Coin before the launch or
after it?
I'll withdraw that.
When was the private placement?
A. It was before the launch.
Q. And did anybody at the Himalaya Exchange get access to H
Coin in the private placement?
A. Everyone had an opportunity to get the coin in the private
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3845
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
placement.
Q. Did you?
A. No.
Q. And what price did people at the exchange, other than you,
get access to H Coin at the private placement?
A. 10 cents.
Q. Was that before the launch or after the launch?
A. Before the launch.
Q. Was there anyone outside the exchange who had access to H
Coin at 10 cents at that time?
A. People involved in the private placement.
Q. And was anybody involved——let me ask this: Were there
people involved in the private placement who didn't work at the
exchange?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, foundation.
THE COURT: You can answer.
A. Yes.
Q. And who were those people?
A. Those were individual investors.
Q. And how did they get that access?
A. It was granted to them by William.
Q. And what happened to the 10-cent price of H Coin after the
people you are talking about got access?
A. After the launch?
Q. That's right.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
A. Yes, after the launch the price spiked.
Q. From 10 cents to what?
A. It went to 1 dollar immediately when I was doing the
interview, and it went to $20 in two weeks, and it eventually
got up to close to 60-something dollars, I believe.
Q. And what, if anything, did that mean for the value of H
Coin that was given to the insiders you mentioned?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, form.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. What, if anything, did that mean, Mr. Brown, for the value
of the H Coin that was given to certain people at 10 cents?
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
THE COURT: Are you asking him an arithmetical
question?
MR. HORTON: I'm asking him what the later price spike
meant for the value of the coins that were granted earlier on;
what his understanding was of what that meant.
I can move on, your Honor.
BY MR. HORTON:
Q. You were asked some questions on cross about the Himalaya
Exchange's statements that it made about credits and crypto.
You remember that?
A. I do.
Q. Were H Coin credits crypto?
A. They were not.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
Q. Why not?
A. Because they weren't on the blockchain.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor. It goes back to
the sidebar earlier.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. Were H Dollar credits crypto?
A. They were not.
Q. Why not?
A. They weren't on the blockchain.
Q. And when, if ever, could Himalaya Exchange customers buy H
dollars on the blockchain?
A. Never during my tenure.
Q. And when, if ever, could Himalaya customers buy H Coin on
the blockchain?
A. Never during my tenure, counsel.
Q. You were asked a series of questions about what it's like
for customers at other cryptocurrency exchanges. Do you
remember that?
A. I do.
Q. When, if ever, was H Coin listed at another cryptocurrency
exchange?
A. It——it never was.
Q. And when, if ever, was H Dollar listed on another
cryptocurrency exchange?
THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, slow down.
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3848
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
MR. HORTON: Fair enough.
Q. Mr. Brown, when, if ever, were customers able to buy H
Dollar at another cryptocurrency exchange?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. During his time at the
exchange?
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. Never.
Q. You were asked some questions on cross about the
distribution of the white papers. Do you remember that?
A. I do.
Q. Did Long Island David give out the white paper?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. The question was: Did Long Island David give out the
Himalaya Exchange white paper?
A. I'm not sure who Long Island David is.
Q. Did David Dai in the UK give out the white paper?
A. David Fallon?
Q. Oh, no. Did David Dai, in the UK, did he give out the
white paper?
A. No.
Q. Did the Phoenix Farm give out the white paper?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor. Assumes facts
not in evidence.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
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3849
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
A. No.
Q. Did Minran Wu get a copy of the white paper?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Foundation. There's no way
he can know that.
THE COURT: You may answer if you know.
A. I'm not sure who that is or if they got a copy of it.
Q. Did the Mountain of Spices Farm distribute the white paper?
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. Not that I know of.
Q. What about the UK Farm, did they distribute the white
paper?
A. Not that I know of.
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.
Q. Did the G Translators translate the white paper?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: If you know, you may answer.
A. I'm not sure who translated the white paper. I think it
was our customer service team.
Q. Did the Iron Blood Group distribute the white paper?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You can answer if you know.
A. Well, I don't know.
Q. Do you know if Miles Guo distributed these white papers to
his followers?
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O6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect
A. I don't know that.
MR. HORTON: Could I have a moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. You were asked questions on cross about a second
conversation you had with Yvette Wang. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. What was she calling you about?
A. She was calling me to try to push the development team to
connect the ecosystem of Miles Guo's entities.
Q. Who did Yvette Wang work for?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer if you know.
A. I believe it was GTV or G Groups.
Q. And who controlled GTV?
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: You can answer if you know.
A. Miles Guo did.
MR. HORTON: Just one moment, your Honor.
Q. Mr. Brown, in your two and a half years at the Himalaya
Exchange, did it hold gold?
A. Not to my——
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. In your time at the Himalaya Exchange, was H Coin backed by
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O6L1GUO6 Brown - Recross
gold?
A. It was not; not to my knowledge.
Q. The live feed of gold that you mentioned in response to
Mr. Schirick's questions, did that ever happen?
A. Never saw it.
MR. HORTON: No further questions.
THE COURT: Recross?
MR. SCHIRICK: Very briefly, your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Mr. Horton just listed a whole bunch of peoples and
entities, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right? Do you have any idea who those people are?
A. I hadn't heard of them, no.
Q. Yeah. Do you have any idea whether they received a copy of
the white paper or not?
A. I don't.
Q. Yeah. But it's true that the white papers, in your
understanding, were posted to the internet, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you know if any of those people he listed have
access to the internet?
A. Could you repeat that?
Q. Do you know if any of the people that he listed have access
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to the internet?
A. I do not know that.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. No further questions.
MR. HORTON: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may step out.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, it's now 4:59. So we
have finished our work for the week. You'll be coming back on
Monday, and we will revert to our prior schedule where you'll
be able to leave at 2:45. So I want you to be ready to come in
on Monday into the courtroom at 9:30.
I also want to remind you about our schedule going
forward. During the week of June 24th, next week, we have no
court on Friday. So it's just four days. And the following
week, we only are in on Tuesday and Wednesday, the 2nd and the
3rd of July.
So I wish you a good weekend. Remember that you're
not allowed to discuss the case amongst yourselves or with
anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case in your
presence. Don't read, listen to, or watch anything from any
source that touches on the subject matter of this case.
Have a good weekend.
(Jury not present)
THE COURT: You may be seated.
Is there anything before we break for the weekend?
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O6L1GUO6
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, I just want to temper now
what I said this morning, in light of this afternoon's pacing.
We had anticipated in our projection to accomplish another
three witnesses today, two of which are short, one of which is,
I would say, a medium-length witness, probably along the lines
of the Mahwah special agent. Not short but not really long
either. The cross today was very long——much longer than the
direct. We would ask the Court to consider sitting a full day
on Tuesday to ensure that the government——what the government
hopes to do is rest on Tuesday. We think that will help pick
up the time. There are a number of witnesses that are left,
many of which we think are short, but we don't know how long
the crosses are going to be. And our projection of the cross
for this particular witness was clearly wrong. I think
Mr. Schirick said he had 45 minutes left at the lunch break.
That didn't prove to be the case either. That happens; we
understand. But to stick to the Tuesday, we might need more
time.
I just want to keep the Court informed of where we are
in terms of progress. That's all.
THE COURT: So I'm not opposed to asking the jurors if
they can stay until 5 on Tuesday. So why don't we see where we
are on Monday.
MR. FINKEL: That makes sense to the government, your
Honor. Just so your Honor understands, from the government's
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O6L1GUO6
perspective, it's not just about when the government rests.
The defense has a case, as they are entitled, and we're trying
to predict the length of their case, also the possibility that
the defendant chooses to testify, and sort of where that puts
us with the date that the Court told the jury of July 12th, I
think, if I have that right, plus the days off. So that's the
government's thinking, and we appreciate the Court's indulgence
on that and wish your Honor a good weekend.
THE COURT: Anything from the defense?
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, I believe that Mr. Kamaraju
has communicated that the defense case is not long, and we're
kind of confused as to why the government keeps thinking that
we are going to exceed our time slot. We fully anticipate
being on track with the trial end date that the Court has told
the jurors. I do not believe we need to change the schedule.
But I think that there is no concern from the defense side of
the case, and I'm trying to assuage that for the Court. We do
not believe it will be a long case. We've said this several
times before, and we reiterate it here. And should that
change, we will let the Court know immediately as well.
Thank you, your Honor.
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, I have talked with defense
counsel about the case, and their estimate is that it ends on
July 3rd, without the defendant testifying, right? If the
defendant testifies, that's going to change things, obviously.
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But we also have their witness list, and it doesn't look like a
four-day defense case. If there are witnesses that the defense
has scratched off the list, some they told us about, some we
agreed to scratch off as part of stipulation negotiations, but
there are a lot who are still pending, and if they already know
that they're not calling them, we'd ask that they tell us today
who they're not going to call.
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, to the extent that we have
any additional information, I'm sure we will be able to
communicate that to them. But again, the defense does not
anticipate this trial going beyond the time told to the jurors.
I just reiterate that. It's been a long week, your Honor, and
if we have any updated information, we're happy to pass it
along.
THE COURT: All right then.
MS. SHROFF: Thank you.
THE COURT: On Monday, at 11:30, I will revisit this
issue.
MR. FINKEL: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Have a good weekend.
ALL COUNSEL: You too.
(Adjourned to June 24, 2024, at 9:00 a.m.)
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INDEX OF EXAMINATION
Examination of
:
Pag
e
GABRIELLA LUCIANO
3580Direct By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . . .
3610Cross By Ms. Shroff . . . . . . . . . . . . .
3630Redirect By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . .
3632Recross By Ms. Shroff . . . . . . . . . . . .
JESSE BROWN
3633Direct By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . . .
3706Cross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . . .
3843Redirect By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . .
3851Recross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . .
GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No. Received
AS-12 3792 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AS-13 3781 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AS-18 3793 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
NJ-358 3595 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
3401 3677 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
3419 3639 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
DEFENDANT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No. Received
60657 3840 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Translated Text(简体中文翻译)
【中文翻译 仅供参考】
O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 1 / 217页
-------------------------------------------------------x
美国政府
控方 23 Cr. 118 (AT)
郭文贵
辩方
-------------------------------------------------------x
纽约州纽约市，
2024年 6月 21日
上午 9:00
庭前:
尊敬的阿娜丽莎-托雷斯法官大人
地区法官
-陪审团-
出庭律师:
达米安-威廉姆斯
纽约南区美国联邦检察官
代表：迈卡·F·费根森
瑞安·B·芬克
贾斯廷·霍顿
朱莉安娜·N·莫里
助理美国检察官
萨布丽娜·P·施洛夫
被告律师
PRYOR CASHMAN LLP
被告律师
代表：西德哈达·卡马拉珠
马修·巴尔坎
ALSTON & BIRD LLP
被告律师
代表：E·斯科特·舒里克
出席人员：
伊莎贝尔·洛夫特斯，法律助理，美国检察官办公室
鲁本·蒙蒂利亚，辩方律师助理
黄拓，普通话翻译
石峰，普通话翻译
唐玉马克，普通话翻译
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 2 / 217页 （审判继续；陪审团未到场） 法官说：早上好。请出庭。 莫里律师说：朱莉安娜·穆雷，瑞安·芬克尔，米卡·费尔根森和贾斯汀·霍顿代表美国出 庭。 卡马拉珠律师说：早上好，法官大人。西德·卡马拉珠代表郭先生出庭。郭先生在辩护席 上，我们还有乔治·萨拉查陪同。 法官说：请坐。在继续证词之前，有什么问题需要讨论吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：辩护方没有问题，法官大人。 芬克律师说：没有问题，法官大人，但有一个更新。在感谢法庭允许我们全天开庭之 余，政府在本周的证据展示上取得了真正的进展。根据我们目前的预测，我们认为我们将在周二 完成。但不能保证，引文我们不能控制辩方交叉询问的时间。我们在周三，即两天前，告诉了辩 方，并与他们进行了良好的讨论，了解了他们案件的范围和所需时间。政府不知道辩方的证人具 体是谁。我们有他们的证人名单，但据我们沟通的时候了解到，这是他们的一部分证人名单，所 以我猜我们会继续讨论加以确定。 我们要求辩护方在明天，即星期六，提供任何额外已生成的 26.2 材料，并在今后持续提供。就像 政府提供了 3500 材料一样，辩护方应该在有新材料的前提下每日提供 26.2 材料。我们还要求辩 护方在星期天早上尽早告诉我们，他们预计谁将在星期二晚些时候或星期三早些时候作证，以便 我们能够适当准备并向陪审团提供高效的证据展示。 法庭知道在周三的时候我们告诉了辩护方我们下周的证人名单。今晚我们将确定下来。我们可能 会增加一两名证人，比如一个保管证人，可能是剑桥的一名警官，但剩下的证人差不多都已经为 辩方所知。所以这是一个进度更新，仅供法庭知晓。 法官说：你给我带来了好消息。 芬克律师说：很高兴带来这些消息。 法官说：卡马拉珠先生，关于你的材料呢？ 卡马拉珠律师说：好的，法官大人。我们很乐意遵守并会继续按发展情况提供任何证人 声明。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 3 / 217页 法官说：好的。是否可以请你的证人在 9:29上台作证。 芬克律师说：我们肯定会这样做。我想补充的一点是——辩护律师可以更多地谈谈这一 点，仅供法庭知晓。根据他们目前的预测，他们认为他们将在 7 月 2 日或左右休庭。这不包括被 告作证的情况。这显然是郭先生的决定，他会做出决定。但如果他作证，这显然会增加审判时 间。因此，我们将看看进展如何。如果合适，政府可能会要求额外的全天开庭。我不确定这个表 情是什么意思。 法官说：这意味着我认为我们都会有动力帮助审判顺利进行。 芬克律师说：是的，这肯定是政府的观点。我也很欣赏法庭的观点。如果辩护方能向法 庭提供更多关于他们计划的信息，他们可以这样做。我只是想给法庭更新政府目前的所知情况。 卡马拉珠律师说：正如芬克先生所提到的，我们正在整理我们的证人名单，法官大人。 我们与政府讨论了如何避免需要某些证人，所以我们希望——再次说明，没有考虑郭先生是否作 证，但我们希望在 7 月 4 日休庭前能够完成。唯一要说的是——我们可以随时讨论——鉴于我们 接近政府案件和辩护案件的尾声，我们可能需要更多时间准备郭先生作证的可能性。假设他决定 作证的话，我们会请求在那些时候按之前的安排给我们一些下午的时间，以便我们能与他会面。 我们可以根据进展来讨论这些事情，这只是给法庭一个预览。 法官说：所以我要过一下我们放假的日子，需要和我的法庭书记员确认一下。好的。所 以我们不会在 6月 28日星期五开庭，也不会在 7 月 1 日星期一开庭。我们在 7 月 4 日星期四和 7 月 5 日星期五休庭，所以请记住这一点。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的，谢谢，法官大人。 法官说：好的，谢谢。 （休息） 法官说：现在我们有了好消息，我想知道各方能否在周一之前向我提交他们对陪审团指 控的意见？ 芬克律师说：好消息总是伴随着坏消息。政府—— 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，证人在台上。我只是通知法庭以防万一。 法官说：我认为这与此问题无关。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 4 / 217页 芬克律师说：政府当然可以这样做。我想我们请求是否可以到星期二。 法官说：星期二。辩护方可以在星期二完成吗？ 施洛夫律师说：在团队里只有一个人，我想可以的，法官大人。如果他们不同意我，我 会很快通知法庭。 法官说：谢谢。好的。让陪审员们进来。 法庭书记员说：陪审团入庭。 （陪审团到场） 法官说：请坐。早上好，陪审员们。我们将继续对证人的直接问询。请记住你们仍在宣 誓下。可以提问了。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 加布里拉·卢西亚诺，继续出庭作证。 继续直接问询 由检方律师莫里女士进行： 问：早上好，卢西亚诺特别探员。 答：早上好。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以请您公布政府证据 NJ-808并转到第二页。放大下部分。卢西 亚诺特别探员，我们昨天离开时在看这个。请您读出左边列出的服务提供商是什么？ 答：服务提供商是 Acass Canada, LTD。 问：右边的客户是什么？ 答：客户是Whitecroft Shore Limited。 问：下面有一个签名，然后是打印的名字，打印的名字是什么？ 答：郭美。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 5 / 217页 问：郭美的头衔是什么？ 答：唯一董事。 问：哪个公司的？ 答：Whitecroft Shore有限公司。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小然后转到下一页，请。让我们关注上部到第二个决议的部分。 这份文件的标题是什么？ 答：这是未经会议同意的唯一成员同意书。 问：上面的那行是什么？ 答：Hudson Diamond Holding有限责任公司。 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，你知道 Hudson Diamond Holding有限责任公司是什么吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 问：现在看第二个决议，你能读一下那里的文本吗？ 答：决议任命王雁平为公司的签署官，特此任命。 问：请缩小这个，洛夫特斯女士，然后转到下一页，请，放大这里的内容。看一下官员的选举， 卢西亚诺特别探员，那里列出的是谁，他们的职位是什么？ 答：王雁平，总裁，Max Krasner，副总裁。 问：然后在底部，这份文件的日期是什么？ 答：2019年 7 月 17日。 问：签名行下面的名字是什么？ 答：郭美。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 6 / 217页 问：我们可以拿下这个。我们可以展示新泽西或 NJ-209。卢西亚诺特别探员，这是什么类型的房 间？ 答：这是一个浴室。 问：让我们看一下 NJ-2010。这个房间在Mahwah 住所的哪个楼层？ 答：这是在其中一个上层楼。 问：我们可以调出 NJ-335 和 NJ-336 吗？我们现在看的是哪种类型的房间？ 答：这个房间被用作衣橱。 问：你在 2023年 3月 15 日的搜索中看到了这个房间吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：你对这个房间有什么观察？ 答：房间里装满了奢侈品设计师服装。主要是女装。房间里有一个干洗站和一个非常大的爱马仕 手提包。 问：我们可以拿下这个并展示 NJ-338。我们现在看的是哪种类型的房间？ 答：这看起来像是一个办公室或媒体室，但较小。 问：在这张照片的左侧有一些设备，那是什么？ 答：摄影设备。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以放大右边墙上的那张图片，请。我们可以拿下这个并展示 NJ- 259。 施洛夫律师说：对不起，有问题吗？ 莫里律师说：我只是强调一下证人刚才作证的图片，法官大人。 法官说：好的。继续。 问：NJ-259。卢西亚诺特别探员，这是什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 7 / 217页 答：这是一个物品，写着“个人衬衫，郭文贵，寄往意大利”。 问：让我们展示 NJ-229。这张照片里显示的是什么？ 答：个人照片。 问：我们可以拿下这个。卢西亚诺特别探员，你熟悉 FBI的搜查令程序吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：该程序是否包括标识或标记要搜查的房间？ 答：是的，女士。 问：昨天你提到或我们看到了其中一个房间的标记，你记得吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：在执行搜查令时，FBI会准备什么类型的文件或草图？ 答：有多种文件。会有对现场的搜查。会有搜查的草图。所以在这个案例中会按楼层分解，有时 会更具体到按翼分解。会有所有人员的签到和签出日志。会有收集证据物品的日志。每个物品会 标明发现的房间、发现者、发现地点的描述、日期和地点。还会有一份 FD-597，这是留下的概 括性收据，以便在搜索期间无人在家的情况下，他们可以大致了解被带走的物品，但这不是具体 清单。 问：关于搜索期间拍摄的照片，有什么类型的日志？ 答：还有所有拍摄照片的日志。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以仅向证人展示政府证物 NJ-358，并翻阅页面。卢西亚诺特别探 员，这是什么？ 答：这是搜查的草图。 问：搜查什么地点的日期？ 答：这是 2023年 3月 15 日，地点是新泽西州Mahwah的 Ramapo Valley Road 675号。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交政府证物 NJ-358。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 8 / 217页 施洛夫律师说：反对，法官大人。法官大人，有一堆反对，所以。 法官说：我们会进行边栏讨论。 （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 施洛夫律师说：谢谢你，法官大人。这些文件都是书面传闻。它们不属于任何例外，因 此辩护方反对将它们作为证据提交。有些文件我今天早上才收到通知的，所以之前无法提出反 对。 法官说：它们都是图画吗？ 施洛夫律师说：不是。有些——我很高兴递交给法庭，这些是刚刚递交给我的。 莫里律师说：为了记录清晰，今天只有一份文件递交给辩护方。其他的已经在我们打算 通过卢西亚诺提交的证物列表中标识了。今天早上递交给辩护方的文件很早就在规则 16 的发现 中提供过。我也只是为了记录指出，辩护方今天早上向我们递交了一些文件，标记为辩护证物， 这些文件之前从未向我们提供过。 施洛夫律师说：我并不是指出你们做错了什么。我只是解释为什么我之前没有提出。 法官说：让我们谈谈第一项。那看起来像是房产布局的手绘图。对吗？ 莫里律师说：对，法官大人。卢西亚诺特别探员刚才作证，她熟悉 FBI 执行搜查令的程 序。它们包括制作手绘草图。它们包括创建收集物品的证据日志，这是我们希望通过她提交的项 目之一。它们还包括照片日志，标识拍摄不同照片的地点，以便我们能将展示给她的照片链接到 搜索财产的具体位置。 法官说：从图画开始。她是否能说出她认出这是财产的准确图画？ 莫里律师说：是的，法官大人。 法官说：让我们继续其他文件。这些日志，它们的提交理由是？ 莫里律师说：它们提交是因为它们与她当天自己看到的物品有关。所以通过她能认证的 草图，然后是我们有的照片日志，这些日志分别针对房产的不同楼层，它们将帮助她说并确认， 是的，这是我从草图中识别的房间。这些日志由 FBI在他们进行的所有场所搜查中正常维护。 法官说：日志中是否有她没有涉及的内容？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 9 / 217页 莫里律师说：为了澄清，日志中确实有一些与她可能没有进入的房间照片有关的内容。 所以是的，它涉及更广泛的搜查，但每个日志都有与她当天看到的事物、她标记为证据的事物、 她作为搜查人员当天在工作过程中做的事情相关的信息。 法官说：这些是你希望为这位证人突出的项目吗？ 莫里律师说：对。 法官说：如果有不相关的项目，你不会关心是吗？ 莫里律师说：不会，法官大人，因为所有的日志都维护了根据搜查令扣押的物品的信 息，作为主题犯罪的工具或证据。 法官说：她能作为业务记录认证它们吗？ 莫里律师说：这些文件可以。正如我刚才询问的，我可以再问一些问题，但她说这是 FBI为所有搜查维护这些不同文件的过程。 法官说：卡马拉珠先生。 卡马拉珠律师说：我认为问题不是认证问题。我认为是传闻问题。通常适用于 FBI记录 的传闻例外是 803(a)，如果公共机构的记录或陈述列出官员的活动、在法律义务时观察到的事 项，但不包括在刑事案件中由执法人员观察到的事项。FBI记录不是业务记录。如果是的话，法 官大人，那么辩护方将能够引入 302，例如。这些不是——这些并不是--事实上，这是联邦调查 局在其他搜查中的做法，并不意味着搜查Mahwah等地是定期进行的活动。因此，我认为政府不 能依赖于商业规则的例外情况，因为有一个更为具体的传闻证据例外情况，专门针对什么是业务 记录。也许政府有相关的权威，但我实际上从未见过一个案例，其中 FBI记录被作为业务记录承 认的。 法官说：我不明白的是，什么才是合适的基础？ 卡马拉珠律师说：好吧，我认为至少对于日志，我认为日志包含的信息是，照片 17是这 个的图片，对吧。它在“X”地点发现。所以如果他们想展示一张照片，那就是它。但是要在日志中 说，这是一个物品的照片。那个物品在那里被发现的。这是传闻。 法官说：那她当天没有涉及的物品呢？她特别标明了她见过照片并说这是 X的照片，这 仅仅是在日志上做一下记录吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 10 / 217页 卡马拉珠律师说：那么，我有两点意见。首先，我不确定它在日志上有什么相关性；其 次，我会说日志是她证词的重复，她说过，我见过照片。事实就是如此。 法官说：假设我拒绝重复的论点呢？ 卡马拉珠律师说：嗯，这对辩方有利。 法官说：我猜她在财产和法庭上标识的物品不被视为传闻，对吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：我认为它们仍然会是，法官大人。这仍然是为了证明真实性而被承认 的庭外陈述。 法官说：换句话说，这仅仅是她创建的记录。 卡马拉珠律师说：所有 FBI 报告都只是记录，对吧。它们是 FBI特别探员观察到的事项 的记录，就像 302报告一样，就像证据日志一样。它们都是执法人员观察到的事项的记录，这是 传闻规则下的特例。无论她是否亲自观察到。无论她个人知不知道，反对的问题不是认证或缺乏 个人知识。这是特别的传闻，这位证人的知识与传闻例外无关。 法官说：我必须说我不熟悉这个规则。你呢？ 莫里律师说：我对这个规则不是很深知，法官大人。 卡马拉珠律师说：我这里有。 施洛夫律师说：我想引用美国诉舒尔特案。在那个案件中，我试图引入 FBI 302报告。 卡马拉珠先生是代表我的助理美国检察官，我输了。这些 302报告被尊敬的 CROTTY法官认为 不可接受。因为，第一，FBI不是一个商业机构；第二，那个例外适用，这就是卡马拉珠先生非 常熟悉的原因。 芬克律师说：另一种方案，法官大人，是莫里女士可以向特别探员询问每个文件，你在 哪里找到的。她可能会说她记得或不记得，我们可以用照片日志来刷新她的记忆。这可能会刷新 她的记忆。我们可以对每一个进行这种操作。然后，如果有额外的东西，假设法庭支持对这一点 的反对，如果有额外的东西，我们可能需要召集额外的 FBI证人来说明这些特定物品是在哪里找 到的。这将是如果法庭支持反对意见而不承认记录的替代方法。 法官说：这是威胁吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 11 / 217页 芬克律师说：这不是威胁。当然不是。我只是告诉法庭政府的想法，也让辩方了解。 法官说：你的意思是——我必须支持反对意见，因为我现在受到了教育，但你会考虑是 否有必要传唤其他额外的证人。 芬克律师说：我们肯定会考虑。也让法庭知道正如我们今天早上告诉法庭的那样，我们 的案件已经简化了很多，所以我们确实在考虑这些事情。 法官说：好的。 （回到公开法庭上；陪审团在场） 法官说：反对成立。 检方律师由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以展示给证人政府证物 358，NJ-358。实际上，我们可以拿下这个。 让我们向陪审团展示作为证据的证物 NJ-40，41 和 42。我们可以一次展示一个。先展示 40，可 以吗？我们可以放大上部部分吗？卢西亚诺特别探员，这份文件右上角的日期是什么？ 答：2022年 2月 11 日。 问：这份文件顶部的全大写名字是什么？ 答：Cedric DuPont Antiques。 问：看左侧，你能读一下“售予”下的公司名称和地址吗？ 答：售予 Taurus Fund 有限责任公司，Sky Pointe Drive，Suite 129-1071，拉斯维加斯，内华达 州 89141。 问：再看一下“寄送至”一行，你能读一下“寄送至”的相同信息吗？ 答：寄送至 Taurus Fund 有限责任公司，675 Ramapo Valley Road，Mahwah，新泽西州 07430。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小放大。现在请转到 NJ-41。我们可以放大上半部分吗？卢西亚 诺特别探员，你在这里的前两个物品上看到手写字迹了吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 12 / 217页 答：看到了，女士。 问：你能读一下第一个物品上的手写字迹吗？ 答：花卉画，位置：女士的床南门右侧。 问：该物品的价格和金额是多少？ 答：价格是 26,500 美元。金额是 19,610 美元。 问：第二个物品，同样问题，请你读一下手写字迹？ 答：一楼走廊女士的客厅北靠近钟门或壁橱门。 问：该物品的价格和金额是多少？ 答：价格是 43,500 美元，金额是 32,190 美元。 问：洛夫特斯女士，请缩小这个，然后放大剩下的物品。看一下物品 8588，卢西亚诺特别探员， 该物品的描述是什么？ 答：一对感官且非常罕见的意大利十九世纪中叶巴洛克风格双框镀金木镜子。 问：该物品的价格和金额是多少？ 答：价格是 165,000 美元，金额是 12,100 美元。 问：现在看下一个物品 CDM，该物品上的手写字迹是什么？ 答：郭美的卧室，床左上至天花板。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以拿下这个并请展示 NJ-42。我们可以放大顶部的第一个物品吗？卢 西亚诺特别探员，你在这份文件顶部看到字迹了吗？ 答：看到了，女士。 问：那上面写的是什么？ 答：看起来像是写的“私人入口”。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 13 / 217页 问：我们可以拿下这个。洛夫特斯女士，我们可以仅向证人展示证物 NJ-358并翻阅页面。卢西 亚诺特别探员，你认出 NJ-358中展示的是什么吗？ 答：认出来了，女士。 问：你认出这是Mahwah 住所吗？ 答：是的，女士。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交 NJ-358。 施洛夫律师说：无异议。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 NJ-358 被接受到证据集） 由检方律师由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，请你向陪审团解释一下我们看到的第一页是什么吗？ 答：这是草图绘制的财产概览。 问：请转到下一页。我们在第二页看到的是什么？ 答：这是地下室，所以是住所的下层楼层的草图。 问：你能在这个草图上为陪审团标识出我们昨天看到的照片中的游泳池区域在哪里吗？ 答：有一部分写着热水浴缸。 问：那是在这个草图的顶部中间吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：请转到下一页。卢西亚诺特别探员，这页展示了什么？ 答：这是住所的主层楼。 问：再看下一页。这是哪一层？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 14 / 217页 答：这是住所的第二层。 问：你能在这个草图上标识出我们昨天看到的照片中的保险箱位置吗？ 答：是的，女士。它在通向一楼部分的开口左侧，标有 YY的衣橱房间里。 问：下面标有 VV的房间是哪个房间？ 答：那是一个宽敞的房间，被用作储存床单的衣橱。是我们昨天通过门框看到的第二个房间。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以在左边同时展示政府证物 NJ-204。我认为是在左侧的页面。 所以，卢西亚诺特别探员，你能向陪审团解释一下我们在右边看到的照片如何与左边的二楼草图 相关？ 答：当然。这是 VV房间。只是旋转了一下。 问：在右边的照片中，保险箱所在的 YY房间在什么位置？ 答：在右侧墙壁上白色关着门的那一边，开着的衣架旁边。 问：洛夫特斯女士，请保持左边的 358 页面，在右边可以展示证物 NJ-201。 卢西亚诺特别探员，我想再看一下 NJ-201。这是我们昨天讨论过的房间之一，然后看左边的下一 页。 在左边的草图中，展示 NJ-201 的房间在哪里？ 答：我们是否可以放大一些以便我能看清数字，它在左侧。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小然后再放大左栏的草图吗？ 答：卧室是 SS房间。 问：在 NJ-201 的照片中，我们看到的梳妆台在左侧 SS房间的草图中在哪里显示？ 答：它是 SS房间右侧的长方形物体。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 15 / 217页 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们现在可以在右侧调出 NJ-250。我们可以在左侧保持这个。请在右侧调出 NJ-250。 卢西亚诺特别探员，左侧草图中的哪个位置显示了 NJ-250中的物品？ 答：它位于SS房间的草图中的长方形物体上。 问：我们可以拿下这些。请洛夫特斯女士调出作为证据的证物 NJ-607。 卢西亚诺特别探员，我们是否可以集中在上部第三层。实际上，上面的顶部，上面列出的单词是 什么？ 答：Crocker。 问：你认为这指的是什么？ 答：我无法确定。 问：看一下第三层，如果你可以只读房间的描述，页面上显示的房间描述是什么？ 答：郭美的衣橱，郭美的衣橱天花板，郭美的卧室天花板，郭美的卧室凹处，郭美的浴室凹处， 俱乐部房间酒吧，俱乐部房间照片，韦恩的卧室，浴室梳妆台，韦恩的办公室，浴室；韦恩的卧 室壁灯，韦恩的客厅壁灯。 问：你知道韦恩是谁吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 问：你知道郭美是谁吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 问：看一下第二层，同样地，如果你可以只读房间的名字？ 答：老板的主浴室淋浴间，老板的主浴室厕所，老板的主浴室中央吊灯，老板的主浴室，老板的 主浴室，老板的壁灯走廊入口，老板的壁灯客厅入口，老板的浴室入口，女士的二号浴室天花板 灯，女士的二号浴室淋浴灯，女士的二号浴室梳妆灯。 问：我们可以缩小这个然后转到下一页，洛夫特斯女士。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 16 / 217页 卢西亚诺特别探员，你知道老板是谁吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 问：你知道女士指的是谁吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 问：让我们拿下这个然后展示证物 NJ-608。 看这里如果你可以只读粗体和下划线的单词？ 答：女士主厅，老板衣橱，老板大浴室，老板床，老板客厅。 问：请保持在第一页，洛夫特斯女士。 根据这份文件，这些房间与哪一层有关？ 答：第二层。 问：请向下滚动。这页底部写的是什么？ 答：儿子的走廊，儿子的衣橱，儿子的浴室，走廊俱乐部房间，郭美的床，郭美的客厅，郭美的 衣橱。 问：你知道儿子指的是谁吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 问：看一下屏幕顶部这里第一页底部，这些房间与哪一层有关？ 答：第三层。 问：洛夫特斯女士，让我们拿下这个然后调出 NJ-155 和 NJ-156。 先看左边的，卢西亚诺特别探员，这张照片中间显示的是什么设备？ 答：制作设备。 问：看右边的照片，那是同一个房间的不同视角吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 17 / 217页 答：是的，女士。 问：洛夫特斯女士，请拿下这个只展示 156 并放大墙上的书架。 卢西亚诺特别探员，你看到书架中间的那个物品了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：那是什么？ 答：一个雕像。 问：洛夫特斯女士，请拿下这个，我们是否可以调出政府证物 GXZ-9的第 189 页，并放大上部 部分。 卢西亚诺特别探员，左栏的日期是什么？ 答：2023年 2月 8日。 问：看这份证物顶部的照片，你在 2023年 3月 15 日Mahwah的搜查中认出什么吗？ 答：书架。 问：那是我们刚才在政府证物 NJ-156中看到的同一个书架吗？ 答：看起来是的。 问：你看到在 Z-9 第 189 页照片中，个体头上方的一部分物品吗？ 答：看到了，女士。 问：在你 2023年 3月 15 日Mahwah的搜查中，这看起来是否熟悉？ 答：看起来是同一个雕像。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以拿下这个然后调出政府证物 C-461。实际上，让我们拿下这个然后 回到政府证物 Z-9的第 197 页。我们可以放大底部条目。 卢西亚诺特别探员，左栏的日期是什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 18 / 217页 答：日期是 2023年 2月 19日。 由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：看右边照片框中的文字，黑色文字写的是什么？ 答：“2023年 2月 19日，郭文贵在直播中透露了这个突发新闻。” 问：看上面的照片，在你 2023年 3月 15 日Mahwah的搜查中，你在这张照片中认出了什么？ 答：书架。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们现在可以调出政府证物W5-V。 我们可以从 1:50标记播放到 2:05标记。 问：卢西亚诺特别探员—— 莫里律师说：在我们开始之前，我们是否可以回到——对不起，洛夫特斯女士——回到 开头。 问：看这个图像，你在 2023年 3月 15 日Mahwah的搜查中认出什么？ 答：书架和雕像。 问：雕像在这个图像中的什么位置？ 答：在郭先生头左侧的书架上。 莫里律师说：好的。让我们从 1:50 开始播放到 2:05。 （播放视频） 莫里律师说：我们是否可以再播放几秒钟。 （继续播放视频） 由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，你以前看过这个视频吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 19 / 217页 答：没有，女士。 问：屏幕左上角有一个椭圆形的标志。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了，女士。 问：上面写的是什么？ 答：中国新联邦国。 问：下面呢？ 答：中共不等于中国。 问：你知道中国新联邦国是什么吗？ 答：不知道，女士。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，让我们拿下这个然后展示政府证物 NJ-256。 我想放大底部条目。 我们是否可以缩小看到完整的文件然后放大那里。 问：看底部条目，卢西亚诺特别探员，那个物品的描述是什么？ 答：谢谢。鳄鱼皮连帽皮夹克-50。 问：该物品的价格是多少？ 答：129,600 美元。 莫里律师说：好的。洛夫特斯女士，让我们现在转到政府证物 Z9的第 206页。 问：看这里的底部条目，卢西亚诺特别探员，左栏的日期是什么？ 答：2023年 3月 8日。 问：看右边，有一个括号然后一些文字。你能读一下这些文字吗？ 答：“2023年 3月 7日。郭文贵的 GETTR视频全文。”
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 20 / 217页 莫里律师说：请向下滚动，洛夫特斯女士。 实际上，请稍等。我们可以拿下这个然后——法官大人，我可以有片刻时间吗？ 法官说：可以。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以调出政府证物W183。这是我们刚才看的条目右 侧引用的内容。 由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，你看到了这份文件的标题吗？ 答：看到了，女士。 问：这是你刚才在政府证物 Z9 第 206页上读到的相同标题吗？ 答：是的，女士。 莫里律师说：我们是否可以向下滚动一点到照片处，洛夫特斯女士。暂停在那里。 问：你看到了这张照片中展示的衣物吗？在这个人身上？ 答：是的，女士。 莫里律师说：我们是否可以放大，洛夫特斯女士。 问：这看起来是什么？ 答：这是一个带有 G Fashion 标签的黑色鳄鱼夹克。 问：这是什么类型的夹克？ 答：鳄鱼皮，或者皮革。 问：这件夹克有任何类型的领子或其他识别特征吗？ 答：是连帽衫。 莫里律师说：好的。我们可以恢复正常大小并向下滚动一点。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 21 / 217页 问：实际上，左侧的黄色字母是什么？ 答：NFSC。 问：你知道 NFSC是什么吗？ 答：下面写着中国新联邦国。 莫里律师说：好的。洛夫特斯女士，继续向下滚动。 继续一点。 好的，请暂停。 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，在这页中间，从“看看这个”开始，你能读一下这一段和接下来的两段 吗？ 答：“看看我穿的这件皮革连帽衫。看看皮革的质地；它像流水一样柔软。我的一个朋友在法国和 另一个家族在日本有同样款式的连帽衫；它在每个人身上看起来都很棒。 “如果你正确穿着这种风格的衣服，你会看起来潇洒和迷人，对吧？你也可以戴上帽子，让你看起 来更加潇洒……对吧？你觉得怎么样？看起来好吗？ “穿着这件皮革连帽衫，无论是与伴侣在海滩上散步还是登上游艇，都会是多么浪漫，对吧？它看 起来也很可爱，不是吗？” 问：现在，卢西亚诺特别探员，你刚才读的文字中，有提到中共吗？ 答：没有，女士。 莫里律师说：我们可以拿下这个。 请展示政府证物 NJ807。 先放大上部部分，洛夫特斯女士。 问：这份文件的标题是什么？ 答：住宅租赁协议。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 22 / 217页 问：作为房东列出的是谁？ 答：Taurus Fund SP。 问：Taurus Fund SP的地址在哪个国家？ 答：开曼群岛。 问：作为租户列出的是谁？ 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，我有异议。这不是一个概述证人。这是一个关于特定主题作 证的证人。她不是概述证人。 法官说：这是一份已经作为证据的文件吗？ 莫里律师说：是的，法官大人，它是在卢西亚诺特别探员进行的搜查中被查获的。 法官说：好的。你可以继续。 由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：你能读一下租户一栏吗？ 答：岳庆芝 （Naok Hing Chi）。 问：地址是什么？ 答：康涅狄格州格林威治 Taconic Road 373号，06831。 莫里律师说：请缩小这个，洛夫特斯女士。 然后集中在财产、期限和租金这三项上。 问：这份住宅租赁协议涉及的财产是什么？ 答：新泽西州MahwahRamapo Valley Road 675号。 问：上面一行，你能只读第一行，括号内的部分。 答：“租户同意从房东处租赁，房东同意租赁给租户。”
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 23 / 217页 问：括号中的描述是什么？ 答：单户住宅。 问：在第 2项中，有一个租赁期限。看第一句话，这份住宅租赁协议的租赁期限是什么？ 答：租期为两年，从 2022年 6月 1 日开始，至 2024年 5月 31 日结束。 问：第 3项，租金，这份两年租赁期限的租金是多少？ 答：租赁期限的租金为 2,400,000 美元，支付方式如下：每月 100,000 美元，需在每月的第一天 支付。 问：租金支付给哪个实体或个人？ 答：Taurus Fund SP。 莫里律师说：缩小这个，转到下一页。 问：在这页底部，卢西亚诺特别探员，你看到的是什么似乎是签名？ 答：是的，女士。 问：谁在这份合同上签名了？ 答：租户。 莫里律师说：缩小这个。转到下一页。 暂停片刻。 我们可以集中在第 31 和第 32项。 问：第 31项，这份住宅租赁协议的这一部分标题是什么？ 答：铅基油漆文件确认。 问：第 32项，这份住宅租赁协议的这一部分标题是什么？ 答：窗户护栏通知。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 24 / 217页 问：你能读一下第 32项的第一句吗？ 答：“房东（房东）依法有责任在公寓内安装并维护窗户护栏，如果有 10岁或以下的儿 童将会或已经住在公寓里，或者如果租户书面请求安装窗户护栏。” 莫里律师说：我们可以缩小这个。 转到下一页。 停在那里。我们是否可以集中在手写的部分。 问：左侧的日期是什么？ 答：2022年 5月 29日。 问：右侧的签名，签名下的打印名字是什么？ 答：岳庆芝 （Naok Hing Chi）。 莫里律师说：缩小，洛夫特斯女士。 转到下一页。 再转到下一页。 再转到下一页。 问：再问一次，卢西亚诺特别探员，在这些页的底部，有一个签名空间。谁在这些页上签了名？ 答：租户。 莫里律师说：我们可以拿下这个。 法官大人，我可以有片刻时间吗？ 法官说：可以。 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，你参与了对郭文贵的调查，除了执行 2023年 3月 15 日的搜查令外，还 参与了其他部分吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 25 / 217页 答：没有，女士。 问：我们在你作证期间看到的照片和文件，都是在 2023年 3月 15 日拍摄的吗？ 答：不是，女士。 问：你选择了我们在作证期间讨论的照片和文件吗？ 答：没有，女士。 问：谁选择的？ 答：政府。 莫里律师说：没有其他问题了，法官大人。谢谢。 法官说：交叉询问。 交叉询问 施洛夫女士继续问： 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，你自 2017年以来就在 FBI 工作，对吗？ 答：不是。 问：那么你是哪一年开始在 FBI 工作的？ 答：2019年。 问：2019年。在 2019年之前你为谁工作？ 答：我为皮尔逊工作。 问：皮尔逊是什么？ 答：一家教育出版公司。 问：自 2019年以来到现在，你一直在同一个小组工作吗？ 答：没有，女士。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 26 / 217页 问：在这个小组之前，你在哪些小组工作过？ 答：我在 HIDTA小组工作过，这是一个打击毒品贩运的小组；我在白领犯罪小组工作过；我还在 一个监视小组工作过。 问：好的。作为你在 FBI的职责的一部分，你拍摄了这个叫做Crocker Mansion的地方的照片， 对吗？ 答：没有，女士。 问：好的。你没有拍摄你今天看到的任何照片，对吗？ 答：没有，女士。 问：不，你没有拍摄它们？我只是想确认一下你的回答。 答：我没有拍摄任何照片。 施洛夫律师说：我以为我听到了一只狗。抱歉。 法官说：这里有婴儿或小动物吗？ 法庭不是宠物的地方。 哦，是打喷嚏。好吧，那么祝福你。 好的。继续。 施洛夫女士继续问： 问：顺便问一下，你知道 FBI有多少特别探员吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：十万？ 答：我不能说。 问：好的。你告诉我你没有拍摄我们昨天和今天在法庭上看到的任何照片，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 27 / 217页 莫里律师说：反对。已经问过并回答过。 法官说：反对成立。 施洛夫律师说：我只是想回到基础上，法官大人；就是这样。 法官说：好的。所以不要—— 施洛夫律师说：我会继续。 施洛夫女士继续问： 问：你和莫里女士见面准备你的证词，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：你和她一起查看了这些照片，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：当你与她一起查看这些照片时，你们是否像在审判中那样并排放置这些照片，还是这是你第 一次在法庭上看到这些照片并排放置？ 答：你能重复一下问题吗。我不明白。 问：当然。你知道有时候莫里女士将两张照片并排放置并问你问题吗？你记得吗？ 答：记得，女士。 问：那么她在准备时这样做了吗，还是你第一次在法庭上看到这些照片并排放置？ 答：我们在准备时没有这样做。 问：好的。那么当她将两张照片并排放置时，这是你第一次看到这些照片并排放置吗？ 莫里律师说：反对。已经问过并回答过。 法官说：反对成立。所以不要重复问题。 问：让我回到最后一个文件，807，好吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 28 / 217页 你刚才作证提到这份文件，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。这是一份租赁协议，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：它告诉你房东是谁，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。房东是 Taurus Fund SP，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：然后有一个租户，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：租户是 Naok Hina Chi，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：看起来像是一份标准的住宅租赁协议，对吗？ 答：我不能说。 问：好的。它有段落，对吗，财产、期限、租金、初始押金，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：租户在左侧签名了，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 施洛夫律师说：好的。如果我们能看看最后一页。 然后再往回一页。 好的。这里。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 29 / 217页 问：你看到的只是——它看起来像是一份标准的租赁协议吗？ 莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过。 法官说：反对成立。 问：文件上的日期是什么？ 答：我看不到你提到的日期。 问：好的。这是你与莫里女士一起查看的文件之一吗？ 答：我相信是的，女士。 问：那时你查看了文件是否有日期吗？ 答：我记不清了。 问：你查看了文件上是否有房东的签名吗？ 答：我记不清了。 问：你记得她是否问过你是否找到了已执行的副本？ 答：我不相信。 问：好的。你不相信她问过你吗？ 莫里律师说：反对。已经问过并回答过。 法官说：反对成立。 好的。所以施洛夫女士，问一次问题，不要重复。 问：她指引你查看这份文件的第 32段，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：那段关于窗户护栏的内容，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 30 / 217页 问：对吗？你在搜索时是否查看了是否有跟进安装窗户护栏？ 答：没有。 问：好的。那么当你阅读这些段落时，你只是阅读莫里女士让你读的内容，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。第 32段对你来说没有什么特别的，对吗？ 答：我不能说。 问：好的。谢谢。 施洛夫律师说：你可以拿下这个，乔治。非常感谢。 现在让我们看看——我想是 NJ256。 如果我可以让它为陪审员和证人亮一些。 问：你被问到这个特定发票的问题，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。重点似乎在这件鳄鱼皮连帽皮夹克上，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。那羊绒高领毛衣呢？ 法官说：你在问问题吗？ 施洛夫律师说：是的，女士。 问：它的价格是 2,635 美元，对吗？ 答：这是列出的价格，是的，女士。 问：对。而且不知为何，有一件是蓝色的，还有一件是红色的，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 31 / 217页 问：好的。然后还有另一件，红色和蓝色的，对吗？ 法官说：请稍等。 你可以继续。 施洛夫律师说：谢谢。 问：在顶部有一件佩普伦机车夹克，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 施洛夫律师说：好, 现在把 Z9调出来，我想这是政府向你展示过的视频，对吗？你还记 不记得？ 答：这是那个视频吗？ 问：我想她已经向你展示过那个视频了，还记得吗？ 答：是有展示过一个视频，没错。 问：对，展示重点好像是郭先生头后面的一个雕像，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：那是佛像，对吗？ 答：我说不上来。 施洛夫律师说：好，能不能展示一下 Z9.197， 往上拉，再往上一点。 问：好的。莫里女士问到了 2023年 2月 17日这个视频，对吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。这不是我问她的问题。 法官说：反对有效。 问：她问的是这个文件，是吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人，我问的也不是这个。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 32 / 217页 施洛夫律师说：那她可以回答不是，法官大人。这只是一个问题而已。 法官说：好，你可以回答。 答：我想不起来是不是这个文件，或者问过什么具体的问题了 施洛夫律师说：好，请继续向下拉。 问：我们看看那个照片，是这张吗？她问了你新中国联邦国是什么之类的问题，对吗？ 答：我不知道她问的是不是这个问题。 问：好，我们再来看看左上角的小图标，在郭先生头部的左侧，也是我的左边。 答：好的。 问：她问你是知不知道新中国联邦国是什么，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：那下面那行写的是什么？ 答：中共不等于中国人。 问：好的。也就��说虽然郭先生在那个视频当中没有提到中共，但是在这个文件或这个视频中你 看到了关于中共的标语，对吗？ 答：是的，我看到了。 施洛夫律师说：好，缩小图片，然后展示一下 W183。 问：你记不记得有被问到这份文件？ 答：是的，我记得念过这份文件的标题。 问：那好，我们从“中共通过”开始念，你可以从那里念起吗？ 答：“中共通过清理党内成员、逮捕那些不愿成为‘党奴’和不愿服从命令的人来加强统治。上天保 佑新中国联邦；我们被世界的黑暗势力所包围，处境艰难，但我们期度过了难关，并取得了重大 进展。”
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 33 / 217页 施洛夫律师说：可以撤下了，换 156， 不是第 156页，是物证 NJ156。 问：你有被问到这个书架，对吗？ 答：是的。 施洛夫律师说：好的。现在我们能不能把那个雕像放大一些。 问：按你的说法，这个书架出现在郭文贵的几个视频里，对吗？ 答：没错，出现在视频的背景当中。 问：好，可不可以缩小看看整个房间——还能看到相机和其他录音设备，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：还有一张桌子。直播的人会坐在那里，对吗？ 答：是的，有张桌子。 施洛夫律师说：好，不可以放大一下那个房间，就是照片上的房间 。 问：关注那个房间里是不是还进行过更多的直播并不是你的工作范围，对吗？ 答：你能重新表述一下吗？ 问：当然可以，今天坐在这里，你不知道那个房间里进行过多少次直播，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你也不清楚是不是还有其他人在那个房间里做过直播，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你不知道这个房间是不是还有别的用途，是吗？ 答：是的。 问：检方律师向你展示过Crocker Mansion 的各个角落的照片，对吗？ 答：你能重复一下吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 34 / 217页 问：当然。检方律师向你展示了这个 Crocker Mansion 几个颇有年份的地方，对吗？ 答：对。 问：他向你你展示了你画的一个比例图，一个你绘制的图，对吗？ 答：我没有画这个图，不，女士。 问：那这是谁画的？ 答：FBI 搜查组的另一名成员。 施洛夫律师说：好，可以给证人看一下这个图吗？ 问：你来为这张草图 NJ358 作证，请问第一次看到这张图是什么时候？ 答：这个图吗？今天。 问：所以在今天之前，你从未见过？ 答：没见过。 问：和莫里女士做准备工作的时候也没有见过吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，问过答过。 法官说：反对有效。 问：好吧，当你在这张草图作证时——请看左边，那里写着 Ramapo Valley Road，看到 l了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：下面一行写的是什么？ 答：屏幕上没显示—— 问：写的是什么？ 答：屏幕上还是没有显示出来，女士。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 35 / 217页 问：我的屏幕上有。 施洛夫律师说：陪审员的屏幕上有吗？ 陪审员们：有。 答：我的屏幕上没有显示。 问：现在呢？ 答：现在能看到了。 问：好的。 答：它写着由 Laura Rodia 准备。 问：不，不，我指的是左侧，最左边，Ramapo Valley Road。它的下面一行写的是什么？ 答：警卫室，停车场，建筑物，网球场。 问：好，警卫室是什么？ 答：就是警卫室。 问：里面有警卫吗？在你搜查的时候，有警卫在那里吗？ 答：我说不好。 问：好吧，这座房子有很多安保措施，是吗？ 答：你能重复一下问题吗？ 问：可以。Crocker Mansion有很多安保措施，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：对。到处都有摄像头，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：房间里也有摄像头，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 36 / 217页 答：我想不起来了。 问：地下室里有摄像头，对吗？ 答：我想不起来了。 问：你不是在那里执行搜查吗？ 答：是的。 问：了解你要搜查的地方的所有细节是 FBI 工作流程的一环，不是吗？ 答：你能重新表述一下吗？ 问：行，FBI的工作流程当中应该有一个搜查计划的，对吗？ 答：是的，有一个计划。 问：对。ERT有一个计划，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：计划包括让你清楚知道准备搜查的地方，是吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：你要知道房子里是不是有摄像头，对吗？ 答：我们对所有区域都按有摄像头处理，女士。 问：我没听清。你能再说一遍吗？ 答：最佳做法是总是就当它有摄像头，女士。 问：我没在问这个，不过没关系。我的问题是：FBI 工作流程的一环是要让你清楚知道准备搜查 的地方，摄像头都安在哪里了，是吗？ 答：是的。 问：你得清楚知道要搜查的地方没有小动物，对吗，别有狗突然扑向你？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 37 / 217页 答：是的。 问：好，你还需要清楚知道要搜查的地方是不是有人，都是谁，对吗？ 答：对。 问：当你搜查这个房产的时候，有前纽约警察局的人在那里作保安吗？ 答：我说不上来。 问：你遇到过负责保安的 Scott Barnet t吗？ 答：没有。 问：你知道你的小组中是否有人在 Crocker Mansion遇到过在那里工作的前纽约警察局官员 Scott Barnett 吗？ 答：我不清楚。 问：你是否记录了当天有多少人参与这项工作？ 答：没有。 问：你是否记录了当天在那座豪宅里有谁？ 答：没有。 问：今天坐在这里，你知不知道当天在那所房子里是否有人被逮捕？ 答：我不知道。 问：执行搜查令之前，你清不清楚 -—你是给 FBI 干活儿的？ 答：清楚。 问：——有无人机在房子周围盘旋吗？ 答：我说不好。 问：这么说吧，有没有任何类型的 FBI的导航能飞的东西在侦察当天房子里都有谁？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 38 / 217页 答：我说不上来。 问：郭先生那天并不在那里，对吗？ 答：我不清楚。 问：你刚才——我就不重复了。你在先前的直接询问和现在的交叉询问中作证提到的其他人，你 还记得当天他们当中有谁在那所房子里吗？ 答：我说不上来他们是不是在那里。 问：你花了多长时间进行搜查？ 答：整整一天，直到傍晚。 问：好，开始搜查之前，你参加了一个搜查策略划会议，对吗？ 答：是的，有这么个会。 问：你参加了吗？ 答：没有。 问：好，那你参加了哪个会议？ 答：搜查会议。 问：好，你们开了个搜查团队会议来组织搜查，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：结束一天的搜查时，你们开了总结会议吗？ 答：我没有参加。 问：所以你那天只参加了一个会议。 答：是的，女士。我需要早点走。 施洛夫律师说：好的，这个可以撤走。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 39 / 217页 问：现在能不能回想一下莫里女士问你的关于这件鳄鱼皮连帽夹克的问题。你记得为这件夹克作 过证吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。她向你展示了这件连帽夹克，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：然后她向你展示了 Gettr上郭先生穿着那件夹克的照片，对吗？ 施洛夫律师说：我回头说。可不可以先展示一下这个。谢谢。 问：不知道该这算不算个文件，就这个她问了你一些问题，对吗？ 答：对。 施洛夫律师说：好的，请缩小。 问：她让你读了文件的一部分，对吗？ 答：是的。 施洛夫律师说：好，请向下拉，可不可以 —— 问：好了，你看到上面写着 2023年 3月 7日吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：下面一行写的是什么？ 答：第 51 期。 问：好，照片中郭先生穿的是 G Fashion，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这是你作证过的夹克，价格和鳄鱼皮连帽，对吗？ 答：可能是。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 40 / 217页 问：告诉我是还是不是？你在直接询问中作证过，我就想确认一下你的证词。 答：我仔细看过。我们没说这是同一件夹克。 问：好的。那么今天坐在这里，你不知道这是不是同一件夹克。 答：我说不上来。 问：那好，但上面写着 G Fashion，对吗？ 答：是的，女士。 问：好的。作为今天作证的探员，你知不知道郭先生与 G Fashion 签订了合同？ 答：我说不上来。 问：你知不知道他是 G Fashion的推广人？ 答：我没听清你的问题。 问：你知不知道他是 G Fashion的推广人？ 答：我说不上来。 问：你知不知道他是不是因为做推广才得了百分之百的折扣吗？ 答：我说不上来。 施洛夫律师说：好，接着向下拉， 到下一页。 问：你读了所有的内容还是只读了莫里女士挑选的部分？ 答：我只读了她要求读的部分。 施洛夫律师说：好，下一页。哦，实际上是这一页，往回翻。 问：这是你读过的部分，“看看我穿的这件皮革连帽衫”，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好，她让你读了这一部分，没错；很好看，对吧？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 41 / 217页 莫里律师说：问过答过。 法官说：反对有效。 施洛夫律师说：我们看下一段。我可以让她读下一段吗？ 答：哪一段？ 问：“我们要珍惜”。 答：“我们要珍惜所拥有的。兄弟姐妹们，我们太有理由感到快乐和自豪了。” 问：继续。 答：我得找找读到哪里了。抱歉。 问：没关系。 答：“还有谁能与我们相比？但我们也必须爱我们的战友，因为这是我们的义务。” 问：好的。你有没碰巧知道这份文件是翻译成英文的还是用英文写的呢？ 答：我说不好 施洛夫律师说：好，可以撤了。 问：好，卢西亚诺特别探员，你做过证的照片，前后加起来有 120张吧？ 答：我估计不出来。 问：那你知道拍了多少张照片吗？ 答：不知道。 问：今天坐在这里，你还记得你搜查了多少个房间吗？ 答：不知道。 问：，自那次搜查以来已经过了一年多了，这么说还合理吧？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 42 / 217页 问：与莫里女士见面时，她帮你回忆起了不少事儿，这么也还合理吧？ 答：不是特别合理。 问：在她向你展示照片之前和之后，你的的记忆仍然是一样吗？ 答：我想是的。 施洛夫律师说：好的。非常感谢，没有其他问题了。 法官说：要再次直接询问吗？ 莫里律师说：谢谢。 二次直接询问 由检方律师莫里女士询问： 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，交叉询问的时候辩方问到了关于 FBI的搜查工作流程 的问题，记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：在执行搜查之前，Mahwah豪宅是否已经清查过？ 答：是的，查过。 问：你能向陪审团解释一下对一个地点进行清查是怎么回事吗？ 答：当然，就是另外一个叫搜查策略小组的会过一遍整片物业，包括地面，任何附属建筑物和整 个住宅，确保没有任何东西会伤及进入搜查的人。此外还会寻找搜查对象以及在豪宅物业附近的 人可能使用的随身武器，还有就是动物。 问：在 2023年 3月 15 日对Mahwah豪宅进行搜查之前，你们有走过这个过程序吗？ 答：有。 问：你还被问到关于Mahwah物业草图，记得吗？ 答：记得。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 43 / 217页 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，能调出 NJ353 吗？哦，抱歉，是 NJ358。可不可以放大左 上角，展示给陪审团和旁听席。 问：卢西亚诺特别探员，记得施洛夫女士问过你在 Ramapo Valley Road下方的那位置吗，对 吗？ 答：记得，女士。 问：草图里从Ramapo Valley Road出来的街道叫什么名字？ 答：Emma Court。 莫里律师说：可以撤了 问：然后你还在交叉询问中被问到 NFSC，记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：还有 G Fashion的？ 答：记得。 问：2023年 3月 15 日搜查Mahwah豪宅的那天，你在那栋住宅内的任何门上看到过任何 NFSC 标识或牌子吗？ 答：我想不起来了。 问：那天你在Mahwah 住宅的任何房间门口看到过提到 NFSC或 G Fashion的标识或牌子吗？ 答：我想不起来了。 莫里律师说：没有问题了，法官大人。 法官说：要再次交叉询问？ 二次交叉询问 施洛夫女士继续问： 问：她刚刚问你 Emma Court，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 44 / 217页 答：是的。 问：Emma Court是什么？ 答：我说不上来。 施洛夫律师说：好的。非常感谢。祝你有愉快的一天。 法官说：好了。你可以离开法庭了。 证人说：谢谢。 （证人离场） 法官说：检方可以传唤下一个证人了。 霍顿律师说：政府传唤杰西·布朗。 （证人宣誓） 法官说：请说出你的名字并拼写一下。你可以坐下。 证人说：杰西·布朗。J-E-S-S-E，B-R-O-W-N。 法官说：请稍等。你可以提问了。 霍顿律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 杰西·布朗， 作为政府证人，宣誓作证如下： 直接询问 霍顿先生继续问： 问：早上好，布朗先生。 答：早上好。 问：你现在做什么工作？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 45 / 217页 答：我目前正在进行一个新项目，使用 Solidity和以太坊将我们的现实资产代币化。 问：你在这个新项目中有雇员吗？ 答：目前没有。 问：你在哪里进行工作？ 答：在我佛罗里达州 Flagler Beach的家里。 问：你是否曾被任命为喜马拉雅交易所的首席执行官？ 答：是的。 问：那是在什么时候？ 答：应该是 2022年春天。 问：你担任交易所的首席执行官有多长时间？ 答：抱歉，应该是在 2021年春天。 问：布朗先生，你担任交易所的首席执行官有多长时间？ 答：直到我 2023年 1月辞职。 霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，可以展示证据 GX 113 了。 问：布朗先生，照片中的那个人是谁？ 答：那是我。 问：拍摄这张照片拍摄时你是交易所的首席执行官吗？ 答：是的。 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的首席执行官，布朗先生，有多少人向你汇报工作？ 答：一个也没有。 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的首席执行官，你都管着什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 46 / 217页 答：我什么也没管。 问：谁任命你为喜马拉雅交易所的首席执行官？ 答：应该是余建明。 霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，你可以调出展示一下证据 GX 103 了。 问：布朗先生，这是谁？ 答：那是余建明。 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的首席执行官，布朗先生，你的上司是谁？ 答：应该是余建明。 霍顿律师说：可以撤了，洛夫特斯女士。 问：布朗先生，2023年 3月 15 日发生了什么事？ 答：3月 15 日，我的房子被包围了，FBI 从我家拿走了我的个人设备、工作设备和一些文件。 法官说：先生，请对着麦克风说，大家才能听见。可以把麦克风拉近一些，对着话筒 说。 证人说：好的。 问：布朗先生，FBI来你家那天是否持有搜查令？ 答：有。 问：你被逮捕了吗？ 答：没有。 问：之后你请了律师吗？ 答：是的。 问：请了律师之后，你与政府会过面吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 47 / 217页 答：是的。 问：你与政府会面了多少次？ 答：大概四，五次。 问：布朗先生，你今天是不是按一份协议的要求来作证的？ 答：是的。 问：按你的理解， 这份协议是什么意思？ 答：协议意味着我不会因我在郭媒体、GTV、喜马拉雅交易所或我申请的抵押贷款中的任何行为 而被起诉。 问：你说的抵押贷款申请，那次抵押贷款申请是什么情况？ 答：那是 2007年的一份收入陈述申请。 问：为什么那份抵押贷款申请是你与政府协议的一部分？ 答：因为我——我虚假陈报了我的收入。 问：根据这份协议，布朗先生，你的义务是什么？ 答：我的义务是始终说实话，在需要时提供文件，需要我出庭时得配合政府。 问：布朗先生，按你的理解，对于与喜马拉雅交易所或刚提到的 2007年抵押贷款申请无关的其 它行为，这份不起诉协议能不能保护你免于起诉？ 答：不能。 问：按你的理解，对于伪证罪、妨碍司法或作虚假陈述的起诉有什么理解，也就是说如果你今天 在作证时撒谎， 这份不起诉协议能不能保护你免受 答：不能，不行。如果发生这种事情，协议就会失效。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 48 / 217页 问：如果你在这里撒谎，政府可不可以撕毁这份不起诉协议？ 答：他们可以。 问：然后你会因为过去的行为被起诉吗？ 答：可能会。 问：你在与政府会面时所做的陈述可以用来对付你吗？ 答：可以。 舒里克律师说：反对。这是他的理解吗？ 法官说：关于你对协议的理解，以继续。 问：好，布朗先生。你是否理解如果撒谎，你之前向政府做的陈述可以用来对付你？ 答：我理解。 问：除了这份不起诉协议，布朗先生，政府还向你做出过其他承诺吗？ 答：没有。 问：现在把注意力转到喜马拉雅交易所上头来。你是哪年哪月面试这份工作的？ 答：应该是 2020年 6月。 问：你进行了几次面试？ 答：两次。 问：第一次是谁面试你的？ 答：第一次是王雁平和一位叫约翰的先生。 问：当你被王雁平和约翰面试时，你清不清楚是在和哪家公司面试？ 答：GTV和郭媒体。 问：你是在哪里进行这次面试的？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 49 / 217页 答：我是在我佛罗里达州的家里。 问：王雁平呢？ 答：纽约市。 问：在第一次面试的时候你对郭媒体或 GTV都有多少了解？ 答：第那个时我不太了解。 问：王雁平之后是谁面试你的？ 答：应该是余建明。 问：你在哪里进行与余建明的面试？ 答：在我已故母亲的家中通过视频会议进行的面试。 问：在你与余建明面试之后，你得到了那份工作吗，布朗先生？ 答：是的。 问：我将向你展示 政府物证。布朗先生，这个文件是什么？ 答：这是我的聘书。 霍顿律师说：政府提交 GX 。 舒里克律师说：无异议。 法官说：采纳。 （政府证物 纳为证据） 霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请展示一下。 由检方律师霍顿律师继续提问： 问：布朗先生，你的聘书是来自哪家公司？ 答：郭媒体
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 50 / 217页 问：你对 GTV中的 G 代表什么是怎么理解的？ 答：我的理解是—— 舒里克律师说：反对。是问当时的理解吗？ 法官说：是的，当时的理解。 答：我的理解是指郭文贵。 问：按你的理解，是谁控制 GTV？ 答：郭文贵。 问：这聘书的日期是什么时候，布朗先生？ 答：2020年 6月 17日。 问：你什么时候开始在 GTV工作？ 答：应该是同一周。 问：收到 GTV的聘书时，布朗先生，你对喜马拉雅交易所有多少了解？ 答：了解不多。 问：按你的理解, 2020年 6月接受这份工作时，布朗先生，你是雇来做什么的？ 答：来帮助推出和创建加密货币以及建立或开发一个交易所。 问：按你的理解, 被 GTV聘用时，你要帮助推出的加密货币叫什么名字？ 答：那个时候的品牌是 G币 和 G 美元。 问：按你的理解, 为什么称之为 G币 和 G 美元？ 答：我相信是为了郭文贵。 问：按你的理解, 布朗先生，GTV的加密货币项目和郭文贵其他的公司有什么关系吗？ 答：有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 51 / 217页 问：那是什么关系？ 答：GTV的加密货币项目是与郭文贵的生态系统中的一些实体合作的。 问：你说到了生态系统，你指的是什么？ 答：我指的是会接受或划转这些加密货币的实体。 问：除了郭文贵的公司，还有哪些公司是喜马拉雅交易所生态系统的一部分？ 答：没有其他公司。 霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，可不可以放大这份文件的第 1段，职位和开始日期。 问：布朗先生，这份文件上写着你将向约翰·王，首席技术官，以及在纽约办公室的王雁平主任汇 报工作。任职后，你向王雁平汇报工作了吗？ 答：没有。 问：你有向郭文贵汇报过工作吗？ 答：没有。 问：你有向约翰·王汇报过工作吗？ 答：没有。 问：那你向谁汇报工作？ 答：余建明。 霍顿律师说：洛夫特斯女士，可以撤了。 问：布朗先生，你认为余建明和郭文贵之间是什么关系？ 答：我并不真正了解他们的关系，但我知道他们经常交流。 问：你怎么知道的？ 答：从——从我们与公司的会议中，余建明说过。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 52 / 217页 问：当你说“我们与公司的会议”时，你从这些会议中都了解到了什么？ 舒里克律师说：反对，传闻，法官大人。 法官说：反对无效，可以回答。 问：说到公司的会议，你能从这些会议中了解到了余建明和郭文贵之间是什么关系吗？ 答：有几次提到他的名字，谈到他的实体—- 还有我们与他的公司的某些—某些—某些计划。 问：当你说“我们与他的公司的计划”时，“我们”指的是谁？ 答：喜马拉雅交易所。 问：喜马拉雅交易所与郭文贵的公司有哪些计划？ 答：就是与 G Fashion、G|Clubs和其他实体合作使用加密货币。 问：按你的理解，受雇 GTV之后，你为什么要向余建明汇报工作？ 答：因为余建明正在推出这些币。他参与了这些币的发行和推出。 问：你受雇 GTV之后。向余建明汇报是一份不同的工作还是同一个工作的一部分？ 答：我认为是同一个工作的一部分。 问：布朗先生，汉密尔顿投资管理是什么？ 答：那也是余建明管的，是在伦敦的一支基金。 问：当你面试 GTV的加密货币工作时，关于汉密尔顿基金，他们都告诉过你什么？ 答：面试时他们什么也没说过。 问：那你是什么时候听说汉密尔顿的？ 答：是受聘之后后。 问：你从哪里听说汉密尔顿的？ 答：从余建明那里。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 53 / 217页 问：按你的理解， 汉密尔顿是干嘛的？ 答：汉密尔顿是一支投资基金。 问：你在为余建明和 GTV的加密货币项目工作，为什么他们要告诉你这个？ 答：这支基金也会成为生态系统的一部分，也会与交易所合作。 问：说到汉密尔顿基金将与喜马拉雅交易所合作，这是什么意思？ 答：嗯，他们做的事情就是让基金中的人可以交易这些币。 问：布朗先生，回到之前的话题，当你为喜马拉雅交易所工作时，他们是怎么付给你薪酬的？ 舒里克律师说：反对，没有时间范围。 法官说：你能不能给个时间范围。 霍顿律师说：好的。 问：布朗先生，你在喜马拉雅交易所工作了多长时间？ 答：大约两年半。 问：在这两年半期间，你的薪酬是如何支付的？ 舒里克律师说：反对。时间范围。 答：第一个—— 法官说：从什么时候到什么时候？ 问：好吧，你的薪酬支付有过不同的方式吗，布朗先生？ 答：有。 问：你能解释一下这些支付方式吗？ 法官说：是指工作一开始的时候吗？ 霍顿律师说：好的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 54 / 217页 问：从你加入时开始—— 法官说：那是哪年？ 证人说：是 2020年。 问：一开始的时候，你的薪酬是如何支付的？ 答：一开始是郭媒体和 GTV支付的。 问：支付形式是什么？ 答：是两周付一次。 问：你说过有不止一种支付方式。后来呢？郭媒体之后是如何支付的？ 答：那年末我就被郭媒体解雇了，然后我进入了伦敦的汉密尔顿工作。 问：你伦敦的汉密尔顿是如何支付薪酬的？ 答：薪酬汇到了我的商业账户上。 问：你说被解雇了。除了报酬��式，还有什么其他变化吗？ 答：我的医疗保险没了。 问：当汉密尔顿而不是郭媒体给你开工资时，除了支付人和医疗保险外，工作上还有什么别的变 化吗？ 答：没有。 问：你在喜马拉雅交易所是有同事吗，布朗先生？ 答：有。 问：你的同事都是谁雇来的？ 答：汉密尔顿集团。 问：你向余建明汇报工作的时期，他是在哪里工作的？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 55 / 217页 答：伦敦。 问：当那个时期，你在哪里工作，？ 答：佛罗里达。 问：佛罗里达的哪里？ 答：弗拉格勒海滩。 问：你在什么样的办公室工作？ 答：我的家庭办公室。 问：你在喜马拉雅交易所向余建明汇报了多长时间 – 我撤回这个问题。 在喜交所工作时你和余建 明的上下级关系持续了多长时间？ 答：直到我在 2023年 1月辞职。 问：那是多长时间，布朗先生？ 答：大约两年半。 问：在这两年半的上下级关系，你什么时候见过余建明？ 答：我没有见过。 舒里克律师说：反对。我们能定义一下“见”吗？这是指亲自见面？ 法官说：你是在说亲自见面吗？ 霍顿律师说：我可以问几个其他的问题，法官大人。 法官说：好的。 由检方律师霍顿律师继续提问： 问：布朗先生，在你向余建明汇报的两年半时间里，你有面对面见过他吗？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 56 / 217页 问：你在佛罗里达的家里如何与交易所的人员进行沟通呢？ 答：我们每天早上都有会议。 问：余建明经常来开会吗？ 答：几乎每天都来。 问：你是说每天都举行会议。这些会议都以什么形式进行？ 答：我和另一位在澳大利亚的员工在线上视频，但是 在伦敦的人都面对面亲自参加。 问：在佛罗里达还有其他喜马拉雅交易所的员工吗，布朗先生？ 答：没有。 问：这些你参与的视频会议是谁主持的？ 答：是余建明。 问：他在这些会议中坐在哪里？ 答：他坐在长桌的尽头。有两个屏幕，我在一个屏幕上，澳大利亚的合规经理在另一个屏幕上， 然后利益相关者都挨着坐一起，余建明在桌子的尽头。 问：请保靠近麦克风说话。 答：哦。 问：请把话筒拉近一点，就不用身体向前倾。你说利益相关者在会议中。 答：是的。 问：都有谁？ 答：有首席网络安全官、首席财务官、首席营销官和内部审计。 问：你刚才提到的这些高管，他们为谁工作？ 答：为汉密尔顿。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 57 / 217页 问：他们在哪里工作？ 答：伦敦。 问：你曾经亲自见过他们吗？ 答：没有。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所，布朗先生，什么是国家推广负责人？ 答：国家负责人是帮助推广这个币的人。 问：谁选择国家负责人？ 答：我不确定。 问：你是如何知道谁是国家推广负责人的？ 答：这些会议中会提到他们。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所的会议中谁提到国家负责人？ 答：是余建明。 问：你说国家负责人是推广交易所的。这是什么意思？ 答：国家负责人会出去寻找参与私售的人。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所谁指挥国家负责人？ 答：是余建明。 问：布朗先生，农场是什么？ 答：我不太确定那是什么。 问：那喜马拉雅农场联盟是什么？ 答：我不知道那是什么。 问：你第一次听说喜币和喜美元是什么时候？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 58 / 217页 答：从我第一天开始。 问：除了名字，布朗先生，G 美元和 G币与喜美元和喜币之间有什么区别？ 答：没有区别。 问：现在说说你被聘用的 2020年中期，按你的理解，你是雇来干嘛的？ 答：来帮助创建这些币。 问：你为谁做这些工作？你为谁创建这些币？ 答：是为郭媒体。 问：按你的理解，雇来创建这些币是什么意思？ 答：通常在加密货币行业中，为了开发和发行一个，有一些事情得去做。 问：那都是些什么事情？ 答：当时我们想在以太坊区块链上的技术开发，还有撰写白皮书和宣传活动等等。 问：什么是白皮书？ 答：白皮书通常是为一个加密货币发布的一份文件，文件里会谈论币的用途、开发团队以及未来 发展计划中要做的事情。 问：你说你们在考虑太坊区块链。首先以太坊区块链是什么？ 答：以太坊区块链是最常用的区块链之一。基于这个技术，你可以开发和创建币。 问：在以太坊区块链上创建一个币是什么意思？ 答：比特币有它自己的区块链，情况有些不同。以太坊允许开发者通过智能合约在上头创建币。 问：比特币和以太坊是公开发行的吗？嗯，我撤回这个问题。我们退一步看。当你说区块链时， 你是什么意思？ 答：区块链是一个公开分布的账本，上显示账本上头的所有交易。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 59 / 217页 问：你说的公开分布的账本是什么意思？ 答：嗯，就是账本系统，里头有节点，这些节点就是批准或拒绝交易的计算机。 问：所有的区块链都是公开的吗？ 答：是的。 问：有没有私人区块链？ 答：有私人区块链，但数据仍然公开给所有成员的。 问：你加入时，交易所在考虑太坊区块链。你说的考虑是什么意思？ 答：我们当时在考虑使用 Quorum。 问：Quorum是什么？ 答：Quorum是摩根大通的产品，允许私人团体使用区块链。 问：按你的理解，当你开始着手这个项目时，这个币会在公开链还是私链上？ 答：我的理解是它们会在私链上，或类似 Quorum的地方，成员可以参与其中。 问：你为什么这么理解呢？ 答：因为这是加密货币唯一的运作方式。 问：你说这是加密货币唯一的运作方式是什么意思？ 答：加密货币必须是公链的，所有信息都可以让所有人查看或看到—— 舒里克律师说：法官大人，反对。 答：——在线访问。 舒里克律师说：可以边栏讨论一下吗？ 法官说：好的。 （边栏讨论）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 60 / 217页 舒里克律师说：我反对。这和我们一周前反对罗伯茨先生证词是一样的。我们正在偏离 方向变成专家证词了。我理解布朗先生在加密货币和区块链行业中担任过职务，就像罗伯茨先生 在加密货币和区块链行业中担任过职务一样。但他收到的通知上并没有邀请他来做专家证人，所 以他没有被资格像专家证人一样作证，我认为现在他只能就一般的话题作证，如果你去看庭审的 笔录，这已经是就加密货币和区块链的运作方式表达他的观点了……虽然现在问题还没那么提 问。霍顿先生小心翼翼，避开了“观点”或“意见” 之类的用词。回答已经是在表达观点了。 霍顿律师说：法官大人，这是联邦证据规则第 701条的核心所在。首先，大背景是他受 雇于一个被控犯有欺诈共谋罪的人。他一开始受 GTV Media雇用，然后向一个被控犯有欺诈共 谋罪的人汇报工作。他是内部知情者，与罗伯茨先生非常地不同，罗伯茨先生是从外部着手，只 进行了几个月有限的调查。布朗先生在内部工作了两年半，我方问题都与他受雇于共谋者时，那 些向被告汇报工作的人相关。 你的理解是你被雇来做什么的？当你说你被雇来做区块链上的事情时，那在当时对你意味着什 么？这是他唯一能向陪审团解释作为共谋内部人员在实时观察到的上下文的方式。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们可以看看记录。我可能错了，但我相信证人已经回答了 关于他认为自己被雇来做什么的问题，然后下一个问题偏离了——这可能不是提问者的错，但答 案偏离了那个领域。 法官说：你能读一下最后一个问题和答案吗？ （重读记录） 舒里克律师说：这正是关于这个东西如何运作的通用问题的本质，这是不合适的。 法官说：他被雇来创建这个加密货币交易所，所以不让他讨论他认为自己必须做什么是 很奇怪的。 舒里克律师说：好吧，这是一件事，再说一次，是否他讨论的是他在被雇做某事背景下 的理解，我理解这一点，法官大人。但我认为，答案是一个更普遍的答案，一个更广泛的答案。 我们只是试图划清专家证词的界限，并提出了反对。这与是否有共谋者例外或是否有传闻反对无 关。所以，他为喜马拉雅交易所工作，向余建明汇报，实际上并没有什么关系。问题是答案正在 偏向专家证词。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 61 / 217页 法官说：你预计他会说创建的东西与他预期的不一致吗？ 霍顿律师说：是的。 法官说：那没事。 （回到公开法庭上） 法官说：陪审团成员，现在是 11:30，我们现在休息半小时。记住，不要在你们之间或 与任何其他人讨论案件。不要让任何人在你们面前讨论案件。不要阅读、听取或观看任何与本案 有关的来源。先生，你可以离开法庭。不要讨论你的证词。 （陪审团不在场） （证人不在场） 法官说：在我们中午回来之前还有什么事吗？ 霍顿律师说：政府没有其他事。 舒里克律师说：辩方没有其他事，法官大人。 （休息） 下午会议开始，时间 12:00 法官说：请带陪审员进来。 法庭书记员说：陪审团进入。 （陪审团在场） 法官说：先生，记住你仍然在宣誓下。 你可以继续询问。 霍顿律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 由检方律师霍顿律师继续提问：
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 62 / 217页 问：布朗先生，在休息前你在讨论你对你被雇来进行的加密货币和交易所项目的理解。你对你被 雇来工作的这个币会在公共区块链还是私人区块链上有什么理解？ 答：我理解它们会在公共区块链上。 问：在休息前你提到了 Quorum。你能再提醒陪审团 Quorum是什么吗？ 答：Quorum是摩根大通的一个开源区块链，它是一个企业链，以太坊的企业链。 问：Quorum是公共区块链还是私人区块链？ 答：它是私人区块链。 问：当你被雇来为 GTV的加密货币项目工作时，你对 Quorum区块链在这个项目中的角色有什 么理解？ 答：我的理解是它是用来分发币、转移币和交易币的链。 问：布朗先生，在你在喜马拉雅交易所的两年半时间里，客户什么时候可以在区块链上购买喜 币？ 答：从未。 问：客户什么时候可以在区块链上购买喜美元？ 答：从未。 问：这是否是你在 2020年接受这份工作时的预期？ 舒里克律师说：反对，已经问过并回答过。 法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 答：不是。 问：你对你开发的币有何预期？ 答：我预期它会建立在 Quorum链上，并且会是一个典型的加密货币。 舒里克律师说：反对。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 63 / 217页 法官说：你是在说你对它的预期吗？ 证人说：是的。 法官说：继续。 问：你说你预期它会是一个典型的加密货币，实际上在交易所你观察到的与预期的典型加密货币 有何不同？ 答：交易所只是使用了一个数据库。它不是一个区块链。 问：你说的数据库是什么？这意味着什么？ 答：数据库是一个典型的工具用来进行数据存储并通过计算机进行访问。 问：喜马拉雅交易所使用的数据库叫什么名字？ 答：我相信是 Posgrest。 问：你能拼一下吗？ 答：P-O-S-G-R-E-S-T，我相信是这样。 问：这个数据库与电子表格相比如何？ 答：它类似于电子表格，但不仅仅允许结构化数据，还允许非结构化的数据。 问：这个数据库在区块链上吗？ 答：不是。 问：如果不在区块链上，它在哪里呢？ 答：它由交易所和那里的技术团队控制。 问：作为交易所的 CEO，你是否有访问这个内部数据库的权限？ 答：没有。 问：为什么没有？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 64 / 217页 答：我不被允许访问他们在伦敦构建的任何技术。 问：你说你不被允许访问交易所构建的任何技术是什么意思？ 答：只有在伦敦的一小部分人出于安全原因可以访问。 问：你是否曾问过余建明，为什么作为 CEO你没有访问交易所内部数据库的权限？ 答：没有。 问：为什么没有？ 答：我只是觉得首席安全官和首席运营官才是真正管理那部分人。 问���如果客户不能在区块链上购买喜币，他们能从交易所购买什么？ 答：他们可以购买积分。 问：当你被雇来为这个 GTV加密货币项目工作时，有人告诉你关于积分的事吗？ 答：没有。 问：喜马拉雅交易所的积分是什么？ 答：人们加入交易所时，他们会用存入账户的美元购买某些积分，然后他们会收到用于加密货币 的积分。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所，积分叫什么名字？ 答：喜马拉雅美元和喜马拉雅币。 问：喜马拉雅美元积分和喜马拉雅币积分与喜马拉雅美元和喜马拉雅币是一样的吗？ 答：它们是不同的。 问：它们有什么不同？ 答：喜马拉雅美元是一个稳定币，它有背书。每一个喜马拉雅美元都有一个银行账户中的美元作 为支持。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 65 / 217页 问：喜马拉雅美元积分与喜马拉雅美元稳定币有何不同？ 答：没有不同。 问：你是说它们是一样的吗？ 答：是的。 问：当有人购买喜马拉雅美元积分时，他们实际上是在购买喜马拉雅美元吗？ 答：他们在购买与美元对应的积分，而不是实际的美元。 问：这些积分，喜马拉雅美元积分和喜马拉雅币积分，存储在哪里？ 答：它们应该存储在数据库中。 问：客户能在区块链上购买喜马拉雅币积分和喜马拉雅美元积分吗？ 答：他们不能。 问：根据你作为交易所 CEO 的理解，这些积分是加密货币吗？ 答：不，他们不是。 舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：反对无效。 问：根据你作为喜马拉雅交易所 CEO 的理解，这些积分是加密货币吗？ 舒里克律师说：相同的反对。 法官说：他已经回答了这个问题。 霍顿律师说：抱歉，法官大人。我不确定陪审团是否听到了答案。 答：你能重复一下吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 66 / 217页 法官说：不，他已经回答了问题。 问：你第一次从谁那里听说这些积分的？ 答：我第一次是在一次团队会议上听余建明说的。 问：布朗先生，在这次会议上余建明说了些什么？ 答：他说这些积分就像游乐园的积分，你买票，然后在离开游乐园时兑换。 问：你听到余建明这样描述这些积分时，你有什么想法？ 答：有些好笑。 问：你觉得好笑的是什么？ 答：这有点违背加密货币的本质，对吧—— 舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 问：布朗先生，你说这些积分在喜马拉雅交易所违背了加密货币的本质是什么意思？ 答：加密货币的本质在于它是一个公共链，所有人都能查看交易的情况。所有发生的事情，所有 人都可以访问。这与那完全不同。 问：为什么这些积分与加密货币完全不同？ 舒里克律师说：相同的反对。 法官说：先生，你是根据你的个人理解在说话，对吗？ 证人说：是的。 法官说：继续。 问：布朗先生，作为前喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO，根据你的理解，为什么这些积分与刚才描述的加 密货币完全不同？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 67 / 217页 答：因为这些积分是模糊不清的。它们不像公共区块链那样公开，也不像私人链那样对所有财团 法人成员公开。 问：你之前说过你帮助撰写了交易所的白皮书？ 答：是的。 问：这些白皮书在哪里发布？ 答：它们发布在喜马拉雅交易所的网站上。 问：它们对公众开放吗？ 答：是的。 问：这些白皮书是否讨论了喜币和喜美元积分？ 答：是的。 问：你有没有问过余建明为什么交易所使用积分而不是区块链上的加密货币？ 答：问过。 问：你问了他什么？ 答：我问他为什么我们使用这种模式，而不是直接在链上发行币。 问：当你问余建明为什么交易所没有在区块链上发行积分时，他怎么说？ 答：当时我们正在寻找一个地方发行币，英属维京群岛是他们选择的司法管辖区。英属维京群岛 的法律顾问建议这样做。 问：布朗先生，在你在交易所的两年半时间里，喜币和喜美元是否在区块链上可以买卖？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：已经问过并回答过了。你不需要回答。 问：布朗先生，如果你认为这些积分不是加密货币，为什么你没有离职？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 68 / 217页 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我为了工资而保留了我的工作。 问：当你在交易所工作时，你认为它是一个合法的企业吗？ 答：是的，是的。 问：你认为你在工作期间犯罪了吗？ 答：不，我不认为。 问：提醒一下陪审团你是什么时候离开交易所的？ 答：2023年 1月。 问：顺便问一下，布朗先生，你在那里时，G|Clubs是喜马拉雅交易所的客户吗？ 答：是的。 问：G|Clubs用交易所做什么呢？ 答：我相信是用于购买 G|Clubs会员资格的资金转移。 问：当时你明白这意味着什么吗？ 答：不明白。 问：你有没有问过余建明这是什么意思？ 答：没有。 问：总的来说，布朗先生，你认为余建明是如何对待你的观点和意见的？ 答：你知道，我觉得因为我在佛罗里达，我无法像在伦敦的人那样和他沟通，所以我的大多数概 念、策略或想法从未真正实过。 问：余建明——你的想法没有实现，对你作为交易所 CEO 的经历有什么影响？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 69 / 217页 舒里克律师说：反对，形式问题。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我只是觉得自己像个稻草人，公司的门面。我没有真正参与任何决策。 问：你说你觉得自己像个稻草人，什么意思？ 舒里克律师说：已经问过并回答过。 法官说：你可以解释稻草人是什么意思。 答：稻草人是指一个没有真正参与决策的人。他们只是公司的门面，但不真正参与决策。 问：布朗先生，你对交易所希望你成为门面的理解是什么？ 答：我认为部分原因是我愿意搬到英属维京群岛，部分原因是我在 DTCC和福特别探员作时的区 块链经验。 问：你觉得你能够在工作中运用这些经验吗？ 答：完全没有。 问：你说你愿意搬到英属维京群岛，你最终搬到那里了吗？ 答：没有。 问：你在交易所工作期间有没有在英属维京群岛待过？ 答：有。 问：你在那里为交易所做了什么？ 答：部分时间用来寻找办公室空间。其他时间用来与电信提供商谈论潜在的数据室，还有一些时 间用来处理Sandbox申请。 问：交易所最终在英属维京群岛找到房产了吗？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 70 / 217页 问：它有没有在 BVI得到数据库？ 答：没有。 问：Sandbox申请怎么样了？ 答：被拒绝了。 问：什么是 Sandbox申请？ 答：Sandbox申请是一个申请交易所牌照的过程，你被放在一个 Sandbox里，作为一个测试 期，看看所有操作是否合规，是否符合他们的指南。 问：那个申请被拒绝了吗？ 答：是的。 问：你每天花多少时间在英属维京群岛处理交易所的项目？ 答：大约三到四个小时。 问：这与在佛罗里达处理交易所工作相比如何？ 答：差不多一样。 问：你喜欢在英属维京群岛吗？ 答：喜欢。 问：除了每天三个小时的交易所工作，你在那里做什么？ 答：冲浪。 问：2020年你被聘用时的职位是什么，布朗先生？ 答：我相信是区块链副经理。 问：你有没有寻求 CEO 的职位？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 71 / 217页 问：你是怎么知道自己被任命为 CEO 的？ 答：在一次利益相关者会议上，余建明任命我为 CEO。 问：在那次会议之前，你知道这会发生吗？ 答：不知道。 问：这在会议议程上吗？ 答：不在。 问：你听到余建明说你是 CEO 时有什么反应？ 答：非常惊讶。 问：为什么惊讶？ 答：我不认为自己有当CEO 的资格。 问：你为什么这么说？为什么你不认为自己有当CEO 的资格？ 答：嗯，我是个糟糕的公众演讲者。我不真正理解作为首席执行官的所有动态。我是个技术人 员。 问：你之前当过CEO 吗？ 答：没有。 问：你曾经领导过一个组织吗？ 答：没有。 问：布朗先生，在你被任命为 CEO 之后，你的工作发生了什么变化？ 答：我参与了更多的市场营销方面的工作。 问：参与更多的市场营销方面的工作意味着什么？ 答：意味着做一些视频会议和接受市场团队安排的采访。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 72 / 217页 问：你说市场团队安排的采访是什么意思？ 答：他们会决定我和谁谈话以及何时谈话。他们会设置议程。 问：在这些采访中你谈论了什么样的事情？ 答：谈论交易所、加密货币、使用的技术。 问：你明白交易所为什么让你做公开采访吗？ 答：不明白。就像我说的，我不擅长这些。 问：你有没有问过余建明为什么让我做这些？ 答：没有，我只是认为这是我必须做的事情。 问：布朗先生，交易所在 2021年 11月发生了什么？ 答：那是我们正式启动的时候。 问：你说的正式启动是什么意思？ 答：交易所——在启动之前，有一个喜币币或喜美元币的私人预售。人们被鼓励购买喜美元。然 后当交易所启动时，这是人们第一次可以购买这些币的机会。 问：你提到的私人预售，人们是购买喜币还是喜币积分？ 答：他们购买的是喜币积分。 问：他们是购买喜美元还是喜美元积分？ 答：他们购买的是喜美元积分。 问：当你说启动之前的准备，你指的是什么？ 答：有一个预售，在启动之前筹集了 1亿美元。 问：启动日期是什么时候？ 答：2021年 11月 1 日。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 73 / 217页 问：你对选择这个日期启动的理解是什么？ 答：我的理解是，这是郭文贵定下的最后期限。 问：你怎么得出这个理解的？ 答：嗯，我们确实很努力地在启动交易所。它原计划在前几个月启动过几次，每次都失败了，最 后有一次我们必须在 11月 1 日启动交易所，不管付出什么代价。 问：郭文贵在交易所里有职位吗？ 答：据我所知，没有。 问：他有参与那些与余建明的每日视频会议吗？ 答：没有。 问：你理解的郭文贵定下这个最后启动日期是怎么来的？ 答：这是我与一些团队成员在启动后的对话中得出的，然后还有—— 舒里克律师说：反对，传闻。 法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 问：布朗先生，问题是你如何理解这是郭文贵指示在 2021年 11月启动交易所的？ 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们能在这上面稍作边栏沟通吗？ 法官说：好的。 （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 法官说：霍顿先生，你预计他会说他与之交谈的人是被指控的共谋者的一部分吗？ 霍顿律师说：是的。他会说他与余建明在喜马拉雅交易所工作的人的对话，他们告诉他 交易所正在为郭文贵做什么。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 74 / 217页 舒里克律师说：法官大人，问题是，这个共谋者例外的范围有多广，以及政府必须建立 多少证据。我们理解法庭的裁决要求具体的人具体的话可以作为传闻例外被传递。目前我们甚至 不知道他在说谁。他只是说交易所的人，对吗？所以是每个人——我们理解法庭的裁决是，没有 一个覆盖所有传闻都被允许的例外。只是因为某人在众多实体中与证人对话。目前我们就是这个 情况。 霍顿律师说：法官大人，现在已经有数小时的证据表明被告在谈论 G 美元、G币、喜美 元、喜币、交易所，还有他的视频证词。余建明的证词。余建明在主持这个项目。他被指控为共 谋者。布朗先生得到的信息来自直接为余建明工作的人，他们告诉他发生了什么。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，这与说余建明说了什么是不同的，这个证人将确认并说不明 身份的人的观点。 霍顿律师说：有一个共谋者例外。还有一个代理例外。他们一起工作。他是负责人，代 表共谋者说话。这是允许的。 法官说：好的。我会允许。这是我的裁决。 （公开法庭；陪审团在场） 法官���：反对无效。你可以继续。 由检方律师霍顿律师继续提问： 问：布朗先生，问题是你如何理解这是郭文贵指示在 2021年 11月 1 日启动交易所的？ 答：在启动后的与一些同事的对话中，然后在启动期间，GTV有一个大型演讲。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所启动当天，你在 GTV的演讲中扮演了什么角色？ 答：我被要求在交易所启动后立即直播讲话。 问：这个任务是谁给你的？ 答：是余建明给我的。 问：我们稍后会回到这个问题。 问：你在启动当天是 CEO 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 75 / 217页 答：是的。 问：在启动前的日子里你是 CEO 吗？ 答：是的。 问：在你看来，交易所准备好启动了吗？ 答：没有。 问：为什么没有准备好？ 答：我们在技术上挣扎了很久。我与技术负责人进行了很多对话，他们也有同样的感觉。 问：你说在技术上挣扎，是什么意思？ 答：这意味着我们无法按时交付。当时正值疫情，很难找到真正有才能的区块链开发者，我们真 的没有技能或手段按时交付。 问：2021年 11月 1 日交易所应该在什么时间启动？ 答：我相信是上午九点或十点。 问：它实际启动时间是什么时候？ 答：晚上十一点。 问：为什么？ 答：因为它还没有准备好。据我了解，根据对话，一名开发人员在那段时间迅速组建了交易所平 台。 问：这怎么发生的？ 答：他就像是顶级的超级开发人员，我猜他把事情掌握在自己手中。 问：布朗先生，交易所启动后，那时候客户能在区块链上购买喜币吗？ 答：不能。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 76 / 217页 问：客户在启动后能在区块链上购买喜美元吗？ 答：不能。 舒里克律师说：反对，已问过并回答过。 法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 答：不能。 问：你说在启动当天 GTV有一个长时间的直播，你参与了吗？ 答：参与了。 问：你从哪里录制的采访？ 答：在我佛罗里达的办公室。 问：在 GTV上采访你的人，他们从哪里直播的你知道吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你能向陪审团描述一下那天的情况吗，那天对你来说是怎样的？ 答：嗯，很有压力。我应该在十点讲话。我不擅长公共演讲，所以有点紧张。我认为技术不会准 备好，然后它拖了几个小时，导致更多的焦虑。 问：在 GTV的启动当天，你具体被要求做什么？ 答：我相信只是接受采访。 问：洛夫特斯女士，请展示标记为 GX的内容，仅供证人观看。然后关闭声音，洛夫特斯女士， 请滚动播放一下。 请证人确认。这是什么，布朗先生？ 答：这是我在启动日的采访。 霍顿律师说：政府提供证据 GX-。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 77 / 217页 舒里克律师说：没有异议。 法官说：证据接纳。 （政府证物被接纳为证据） 问：洛夫特斯女士，请播放这个视频，时间点为 1 分 45秒，并播放音频。 （播放视频） 问：布朗先生，你说我们遭遇了一些延迟，但我们希望做对，我认为我们做到了。你认为交易所 在那天做对了吗？ 答：没有。 问：为什么你在 GTV上这么说？ 答：我害怕会破坏整个启动。 问：洛夫特斯女士，可以播放到 2 分 45秒吗？ （播放视频） 问：布朗先生，你被问到喜币与其他加密货币如比特币相比有什么优势。当你在 GTV上被问到 这个问题时，喜币是一种像比特币一样的加密货币吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对，已问过并回答过。 法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 答：不是。 问：为什么不是？ 答：它不在区块链上。 问：在视频中你提到我们使用的是许可链，你指的是什么？ 答：Quorum。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 78 / 217页 问：在这次采访时，客户能使用 Quorum购买喜币或喜美元吗？ 答：不能。 问：布朗先生，你在这次采访中的回答是真实的吗？ 答：不是。 问：为什么你在这些采访中撒谎？ 答：再次强调，我害怕在启动期间引发大规模抛售，我只是遵循公司的谈话要点。 问：你所说的公司谈话要点是什么意思？ 答：有些要点是我们在所有时候都要讨论的，其中之一是 Quorum链。 问：你对谈话要点的理解来自哪里？ 答：来自法律团队和市场营销团队。 问：交易所的法律和市场营销团队向谁汇报？ 答：余建明。 问：布朗先生，2021年 11月在 GTV上的采访是你唯一一次公开代表交易所接受采访吗？ 答：不是。 问：在其他采访中，你是否说了关于交易所和其币的虚假信息？ 答：是的。 问：在这些其他采访中，你撒谎的内容是什么？ 答：主要是不断谈论币在区块链上以及我们使用 Quorum。 问：你刚才提到你害怕引发抛售？ 答：是的。 问：什么是抛售？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 79 / 217页 答：抛售是当市场中存在恐慌时，人们争相出售他们的货币。 问：抛售对喜币的价格有什么影响？ 答：它会降低价格。 问：在启动当天喜币的价格发生了什么？ 答：它暴涨了。 问：暴涨是什么意思？ 答：在我接受采访时，它从 10 美分涨到 1 美元，后来在 14 天内涨到 20 美元。 问：作为当时的交易所 CEO，你对看到这个价格上涨有什么反应？ 答：有点惊讶。 问：为什么？ 答：对于一个只在一个小交易所上的币来说，这是一个巨大的飞跃。它没有在任何大交易所上 市。 问：你说这个币没有在任何大交易所上市是什么意思？ 答：通常当你发行一个币时，两家交易所会接纳你。当那发生时，这个币会在很多网站上被展 示，这些网站像纳斯达克那样排名和显示价格。而我们并没有那样的曝光度，所以全球对我们币 的认知并不存在。 问：当喜币的价格像你描述的那样上涨时，布朗先生，客户能持有喜币还是只能持有喜币积分？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：积分。 问：你有没有问过余建明关于价格上涨的解释？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 80 / 217页 问：H-Coin曾在喜马拉雅交易所以外的其他交易所上市吗？ 答：没有。 问：喜美元呢？ 答：没有。 问：作为当时的 CEO，你对为什么喜币和喜美元没有在喜马拉雅交易所以外的其他交易所上市有 什么理解？ 答：利益相关者对价格下跌非常担忧，如果在其他交易所上市，价格可能会下跌。 问：担心价格下跌的利益相关者是谁？ 答：几乎所有人，但特别是首席安全官、法律团队和首席运营官。 问：你对为什么在其他交易所上市会导致价格下跌有什么理解？ 答：因为这会允许更广泛的自由市场参与，更多的人可以进入，并且那些拥有币的人会有更多的 流动性来出售。 问：交易所为什么不希望这样？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：当你说“交易所”时，为什么交易所 不希望那样？你指的是谁？ 问：布朗先生，当时你是 CEO，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你对为什么交易所的利益相关者不希望喜币或喜美元在其他交易所上市有什么理解？ 答：因为担心价格会下跌。 问：什么是 humming bot，你知道那是什么吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 81 / 217页 答：知道。 问：你能拼一下吗？ 答：H-U-M-M-I-N-G，B-O-T。 问：什么是 humming bot？ 答：它是一种软件，可以自动进行买卖交易。 问：humming bot是否在喜马拉雅交易所使用过？ 答：是的。 问：你怎么知道的？ 答：在几次会议中提到过。 问：谁告诉你交易所正在使用 humming bot？ 答：David Fallon。 问：David Fallon是谁？ 答：他是汉密尔顿基金的基金经理。 问：David Fallon为谁工作？ 答：为余建明工作。 问：作为交易所的 CEO，你对为什么在交易所使用 humming bot有什么理解？ 答：主要有两个目的。一个是——机器人通常用于低交易量的场景，没有很多交易者。这对其他 投资者来说不好，因为他们不想看到一个鬼城，所以这些机器人自动交易以给人一种活动的假 象。 问：为什么叫机器人？ 答：因为它们是自动化的。没有人类在背后操控，只是软件。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 82 / 217页 问：你提到低交易量的场景？ 答：是的。 问：那是什么意思？ 答：低交易量的场景意味着没有很多交易。通常一个交易所每天会有数百万次交易。 问：你在喜马拉雅交易所观察到低交易量的场景了吗？ 答：是的。启动后情况逐渐恶化。 问：随着交易量逐渐变差，如果任何，价格发生了什么变化？ 答：价格基本保持稳定。 问：你对这是什么原因有什么理解？ 答：我的理解是机器人在驱动大量交易并支撑价格。 问：你曾经问过余建明关于 humming bot的事情吗？ 答：没有。 问：为什么没有？ 答：那是 David Fallon基金的工作。 问：布朗先生，你是否曾了解到 GTV和 SEC的任何信息？ 答：有。 问：当你了解到这些信息时，你是交易所的 CEO 吗？ 答：是的。 问：你学到了什么？首先，什么是 SEC？ 答：证券交易委员会。 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO，你了解 GTV和 SEC的什么信息？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 83 / 217页 答：我了解到他们与 SEC达成了和解，SEC的一部分规定郭文贵不得直接或间接参与任何加密 货币或证券发行。 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO，你为什么会了解这些信息？ 答：我通常会阅读一些 SEC的文件，因为当时 FTX崩溃了，了解未来的合规情况非常重要，因 为这个领域的合规非常困难，所以你必须了解行业情况。 问：当你了解到 GTV与 SEC关于加密货币的和解时，你做了什么？ 答：我在一次会议中提出了这个问题。 问：布朗先生，这是一次喜马拉雅交易所的会议吗？ 答：是的，没错。 问：你为什么在喜马拉雅交易所的会议上提到 GTV与 SEC的和解协议？ 答：因为当时郭文贵在围绕交易所做了很多市场推广，我觉得这间接参与其中。 问：你说的郭文贵在交易所周围做市场推广是什么意思？ 答：他经常在他的平台上谈论交易所。他还创作了一首关于喜币 上月球的 iTunes歌曲。 问：你听过那首歌吗？ 答：听过。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所之前，你有在区块链领域工作过吗？ 答：有的。 问：喜币上月球这个标题对你意味着什么？ 答：嗯，“上月球”是一个加密货币的说法，意思是每个人都想投资某个币，然后它的价格飞涨到 月球。 问：布朗先生，你对郭文贵创作一首叫喜币上月球的歌有什么理解吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 84 / 217页 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我不知道我是否有任何理解。 问：你说你在喜马拉雅交易所的会议上提到过 GTV和解协议，当时会议上都有谁？ 答：之前我提到的利益相关者，以及余建明和法律部门负责人。 问：法律部门负责人是谁？ 答：我相信是普里亚·帕特尔。 问：你在会议上提到这个 GTV加密货币和解协议时说了什么？ 答：嗯，我提出来是因为我觉得，通过推广这个币并谈论这个币，间接参与其中。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们能再次进行简短的边栏讨论吗？ 法官说：可以，你们可以上来。 (继续在下一页) （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我刚才让两个问题通过了，问题的主题是涉及到交易所利益 相关者的会议，包括交易所的总法律顾问。现在我们显然进入了——我认为证人刚被问到关于法 律顾问所说的话。无论如何，我们显然是在讨论可能是特权讨论的上下文中，政府不应该引出这 样的证词。 法官说：稍等。我只是想听一下问题。 （记录被宣读） 法官说：那么你预期可能引出的内容是什么，你反对什么？ 舒里克律师说：我认为引出关于这次对话的任何证词都不合适，根据证人自己的话，提 出了一个法律问题，一个法律问题的担忧。我预期接下来的一个或两个甚至五个问题会进一步深 入。实际上——好吧，我就说��这里。 法官说：我认为霍顿先生会告诉我们一个例外。继续。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 85 / 217页 霍顿律师说：这里相关的是犯罪欺诈例外。首先，如果有一个特权要主张，喜马拉雅交 易所的律师们不能主张这个特权。他们不代表喜马拉雅交易所。我不相信他们会主张普里亚·帕特 尔代表了郭文贵。他们可以自由地主张，那与本案相关。有一个特权要主张。这不是他们的特 权。要明确的是，普里亚·帕特尔是一个共同阴谋者。如果她代表 Rico阴谋的工具说话，这就不 是特权。当她对布朗先生撒谎时，这不是特权。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我可以回应一下吗。再一次，我们这里有代理和共同阴谋者 的例外吞没了规则。政府似乎只需要说某人是许多实体之一的代理人或仅仅主张某人是共同阴谋 者，而不需要证明这些事情。然后不仅有证词进入证据，我们还拥有特权对话进入。现在我们很 乐意休息一下，看看我们能否联系上交易所的人，看看他们是否想主张特权。政府没有——我们 没有事先通知这是要发生的事情，对吧。你们没有提前告诉我们你们要这么做。我们没有机会提 前处理这个问题。我们在实时处理中。我们不能很好地说没有人从交易所来主张特权。这是最终 的论点。 霍顿律师说：法官大人，关于这个我只有两个简短的意见。帕特尔女士在布朗先生的文 件中，因为这对他作为交易所的 CEO非常重要。第二件事，Bitgo的山姆·罗伯茨提供了大量证 词，关于他与普里亚·帕特尔的通信，她不仅是喜马拉雅交易所的发言人，她还广泛谈论了郭文贵 及其与交易所的关系。 舒里克律师说：我不确定这与什么有关。那些是第三方的对话。我们在谈论特权对话。 法官说：所以政府是指控她是阴谋的一部分？ 舒里克律师说：我明白，法官大人。我们理解法庭的审前裁定要求在证词进入之前要有 一些证明。这只解决了一个问题。我们仍然在讨论特权问题。 法官说：我认为已经建立了适当的基础来确立规则。 舒里克律师说：在一个阴谋中？ 法官说：是的。 舒里克律师说：我不确定我知道那些证据是什么，但我认为这是一个单独的问题，即犯 罪欺诈是否适用。显然，我认为，至少根据我的理解，法庭需要做出认定，即律师的建议是用于 与犯罪有关的，是用来促进犯罪的。而仅仅是在圆桌会议上关于SEC和解进展的对话，远未证 明律师的建议是用来促进犯罪的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 86 / 217页 霍顿律师说：法官大人，不需要涉及这个问题。问题可以是关于布朗先生在会议上提出 GTV和解问题时发生了什么。发生的事情不是帕特尔女士给出了法律建议。她没有给出法律建 议。首先她所说的，布朗先生认为是谎言。其次，在任何情况下，她的回应都不是法律建议。 施洛夫律师说：他字面上说他提出了一个法律问题，并在会议上以律师身份向她提出。 她肯定不是以任何其他身份出席。 霍顿律师说：我预期布朗先生会证实，在他提出这个问题后，帕特尔女士看向余建明并 说，这是她第一次听到这个。布朗先生会说，这让他感到不可信，即便是根据他的理解。 舒里克律师说：这不意味着这不是真的。 霍顿律师说：这不是法律建议，这是我第一次听到这个。 法官说：考虑到所有关于帕特尔女士的证词，我认为已经建立了一个准确的基础，所以 我将允许证词。我只是想明确一点，根据 Guiney的规定，我做出一个有条件的裁定，我期待检 方在案件结束时提出动议。 （回到公开法庭上；陪审团在场） 法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 霍顿先生继续问： 问：布朗先生，当你在会议上提出 GTV关于加密货币的和解问题时，喜马拉雅交易所会议的利 益相关者是谁？ 答：那应该是首席安全官、首席运营官、首席财务官、首席营销官、余建明、法律部门和内部审 计。 问：对不起，你在旁听讨论前提到了普里亚·帕特尔？ 答：是的。 问：那是谁？ 答：她是法律部门负责人。 问：根据你的观察，她在交易所的角色是什么？她做什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 87 / 217页 答：她基本上做所有的最终决定，所有的商业决定。 问：帕特尔女士向谁汇报工作？ 答：余建明。 问：当你在会议上提出 GTV关于加密货币的和解问题时，发生了什么？ 答：有点尴尬的沉默。我看到 Priya 看着余建明，然后她基本上转向我说这是她第一次听到这 个。 问：你之前听帕特尔女士谈论过郭文贵吗？ 答：我不记得了。 问：当帕特尔女士说这是她第一次听到这个时，你有什么感觉？ 答：在尴尬和羞愧之间，我觉得有点不真实。 问：为什么你觉得帕特尔女士说她之前没听说过这个 SEC和解问题有点不真实？ 舒里克律师说：反对，相关性。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我只是觉得她是一个有能力的律师。她应该做过尽职调查并理解它。 问：布朗先生，为什么喜马拉雅交易所的人会知道 GTV关于加密货币的 SEC和解问题？ 舒里克律师说：反对，假设性问题。 法官说：反对有效。 问：布朗先生，你是否预期帕特尔女士会知道你在说什么？ 答：是的。 问：为什么你预期喜马拉雅交易所的法律部门负责人会知道 GTV关于加密货币的 SEC和解问 题？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 88 / 217页 答：因为她经常和余建明交流，并了解余建明和郭文贵之间关系的所有动态。 舒里克律师说：反对，证人作证内容。 法官说：他不能说她的想法。因此关于她理解的那部分被删除。 问：布朗先生，你有问过余建明关于和解的问题吗？ 答：没有。 问：为什么没有？ 答：在那之后我们很快就进入了常规议程。 问：布朗先生，你早些时候说郭文贵在社交媒体上推广喜币，你亲自观察到这些吗？ 答：我听过那首 iTunes歌曲。 问：我将向你展示一份作为证据的文件 GXC-405。洛夫特斯女士，请你放出来。你可不可以滚动 到顶部。 布朗先生，这是什么？ 答：看起来像是一篇来自 G News的文章。 问：G News是什么？ 答：我相信它是郭媒体的实体之一。 问：洛夫特斯女士，你可不可以往下滚动。 布朗先生，你理解这份文件显示了什么？ 答：有一个现场直播，并报告了 9 月 29日的亮点。 问：洛夫特斯女士，请你滚动到页面中间以下的位置。有一个标题为“中国人民的钱最安全的方式 是什么？”的段落。当你到那里时，请放大这个段落。 布朗先生，你看到这个段落了吗，它的标题是“如何在不贬值的情况下保证中国人民的钱安全？”
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 89 / 217页 答：看到了。 问：洛夫特斯女士，在这个段落的中间有一句话以“目前最安全的虚拟币”开始。你可不可以突出 显示那句。 布朗先生，你能读一下这句话吗？ 答：可以。目前最安全的虚拟币是喜马拉雅币，因为其价值的 20%被黄金锚定。 问：洛夫特斯女士，你能展示这次采访的日期吗？ 在 2021年 9 月 29日你是喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO 吗？ 答：是的。 问：布朗先生，喜币价值的 20%锚定在黄金上，这是真的吗？ 答：不，不是真的。 问：喜币的价值有多少锚定在黄金上？ 答：据我所知没有。 问：喜马拉雅 Dollar储备中有多少是黄金？ 答：零。 问：作为交易所的 CEO，你对郭文贵说过什么吗？ 答：没有。 问：你有没有告诉郭文贵不要发表这样的言论？ 答：没有。 问：为什么没有？ 答：我从未和郭文贵说过话。 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO，布朗先生，有人让你签署文件吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 90 / 217页 答：是的。 问：是谁让你签文件？ 答：当时的首席财务官和合规官员经常要求我签署文件。 问：这些高管让你签署的是什么类型的文件？ 答：主要是银行申请，因为当时加密货币公司很难获得银行业务，然后我还会签署一些审计和代 表交易所的其他文件。 问：你理解为什么让你签署要交给银行和审计员的文件吗？ 答：你能再说一遍吗？ 问：布朗先生，你理解为什么让你签署要交给银行和审计员的文件吗？ 答：因为我是 CEO。 问：在你被要求签署这些文件时，你有阅读这些文件吗？ 答：有。 问：你多仔细地读了这些文件？ 答：没有很仔细。 问：为什么？ 答：我是一个快速浏览的阅读者。 问：你曾经要求修改文件然后再签署吗？ 答：我不记得曾经要求过。 问：为什么那样？ 答：我认为这些都是需要签署和推进的典型 CEO 的事情。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 91 / 217页 问：洛夫特斯女士，请你调出作为证据的 GXBR-208-A。第一页。洛夫特斯女士，请你展示第二 页。你可以放大杰西·布朗 CEO签名行上方的文本。 布朗先生，你签了这份文件吗？ 答：是的。 问：它说喜马拉雅自己银行账户中持有的美元金额是多少？ 答：那将是略多于 4.01亿美元。 问：作为 CEO签署这份文件时，你知道这是否属实吗？ 答：不知道。 问：当时你知道交易所拥有多少钱吗？ 答：我不知道交易所有多少钱。 问：在你签署这份文件之前，你有要求任何人核实这是否属实吗？ 答：我不记得。 问：以下行中提到的是在喜马拉雅生态系统平台上抵押的喜美元信用和在以太坊区块链上抵押的 喜美元代币。 在区块链上抵押的喜美元代币这一项的金额是多少？ 答：那将是零。 问：在喜马拉雅生态系统平台上抵押的喜美元信用，这里的喜马拉雅生态系统平台指的是什么？ 答：那将是平台上的所有实体。 问：在你理解的范围内，这份文件中提到的抵押喜美元信用的目的是什么，抵押在这个上下文中 是什么意思？ 答：我相信这个代币将会抵押这笔金额。 问：这份文件与喜美元储备有何关系，如果有的话？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 92 / 217页 答：正如我在证词中所说的，稳定币每一个都必须由一美元支持，这就是它代表的意义。 问：这份文件中关于用于抵押喜美元的黄金有多少？ 答：这份文件中没有提到黄金。 问：布朗先生，你在喜马拉雅交易所工作时，是否有一次你得知资金被查封？ 答：是的。 问：你了解到的查封是什么？ 答：我们的资金在我相信是波多黎各的一家银行被冻结了，由美国政府冻结的。 问：你是如何得知政府冻结了喜马拉雅交易所的资金？ 答：我在一次紧急会议上听说的。 问：在查封之后你在交易所的紧急会议上听到了什么？ 答：我听说资金被冻结了，我们将无法提供兑换服务。 问：什么是兑换服务？ 答：兑换是指喜马拉雅交易所用户将他们的信用兑换成法定货币的过程。 法官说：你说的法定货币是什么意思？ 证人说：美元。 问：对客户来说，无法在喜马拉雅交易所进行兑换意味着什么？ 答：这意味着他们的钱被困在交易所里，无法取出并存入他们自己的账户。 问：当你得知这些查封时你是 CEO 吗？ 答：是的。 问：你对交易所当时停止兑换的理解是什么？ 答：因为我们无法提供任何法定货币或美元来满足兑换需求。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 93 / 217页 问：布朗先生，在查封之后，喜美元储备中的资金有什么影响？ 答：据我所知没有储备。 问：这意味着喜美元的状态是什么？ 答：这意味着它不再有支持且没有价值。 问：交易所对客户说了什么？ 答：有一个大的客户服务推动，提到我们当时在银行方面有问题，我们希望在不久的将来解决， 请耐心等待。 问：交易所是否说喜美元不再是稳定币？ 答：没有。 问：在这个时候它还是稳定币吗？ 答：不是。 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：布朗先生，你当时是 CEO 吗？ 答：是的。 问：在喜美元储备资金消失后，你是否认为喜美元仍然是稳定币？ 舒里克律师说：反对，记录错误。 法官说：你的理解是什么——我没听清最后一部分。 问：问题是，当时作为 CEO，在资金被查封之后，布朗先生是否认为喜美元仍然是稳定币？ 法官说：我将支持反对。 问：在那个时候交易所里还剩下现金吗，据你所知，布朗先生？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 94 / 217页 答：据我所知，我们资金紧张。 问：这是否告知了客户？ 答：没有。 问：作为当时交易所的 CEO，你对这些查封如何影响喜币的价格有何预期？ 答：是的。 问：你的预期是什么？ 答：嗯，在这个时候有很多恐惧在市场上...... 市场在 FTX和其他大交易所发生的事情之后，会有一次大的抛售，所谓的抛售是指每个人都试图 同时出售。 问：明确一下，你预期喜马拉雅交易所的币价会发生什么变化？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：你担心什么，这是问题吗？ 霍顿律师说：是的。 法官说：继续。 答：大幅降价，因为在这种情况下总是会发生这种情况。 问：喜币的价格发生了什么？ 答：几乎没有变化。 问：布朗先生，你能解释为什么喜币的价格在查封后没有下降吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对，猜测。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我不能。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 95 / 217页 问：你有没有问过余建明为什么喜币在查封后没有降价？ 答：没有。 问：作为当时交易所的 CEO，布朗先生，你知道交易所提供了一笔万美元的贷款吗？ 答：我记得在我们的一次会议上讨论过这个问题。我们有五到六个人组成的董事会，事情出现 后，我们决定是否要集体进行。我不记得具体的名称，但有一个小组是由余建明领导的，集体做 决定。 问：作为当时的 CEO，你知道那笔万美元的费用是用来做什么的吗？ 答：是的。 问：是用来做什么的？ 答：据说是贷款。 问：作为 CEO，你知道那笔贷款的目的吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对，基础不充分。 法官说：如果你知道，你可以回答。 答：是的，我相信是用于购买游艇。 问：布朗先生，你被要求批准这个吗？ 答：是的。 问：你做了什么来调查交易所提供万美元贷款购买游艇的情况？ 答：进行了讨论。内部讨论过，有一些反对意见，但最终投票决定继续贷款。 问：作为当时的 CEO，你对为什么喜马拉雅交易所要为购买游艇提供万美元贷款有何理解？ 答：看起来像是个人贷款。 问：你有没有采取任何措施阻止它？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 96 / 217页 答：我和Marios反对并进行了讨论，然后勉强同意了。 问：谁是Marios？ 答：Marios是首席运营官。 问：当你说看起来像是个人贷款时，是为谁的个人贷款？ 舒里克律师说：反对，猜测。 法官说：反对有效。 问：为什么你觉得这是个人贷款？ 舒里克律师说：相同的反对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：为什么你的理解是个人贷款？ 舒里克律师说：相同的反对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：我继续问。你在交易所工作的两年半时间里，交易所曾为游艇提供过贷款吗？ 答：没有。 问：你知道这笔贷款是给谁的吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：余建明说是给郭文贵的女儿的。 问：你对为什么喜马拉雅交易所要为郭文贵的女儿提供贷款有何理解？ 舒里克律师说：反对，相关性。 法官说：你可以回答。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 97 / 217页 答：我其实不太明白为什么。 问：在你和首席运营官反对之后，这笔万美元的贷款发生了什么？ 答：最终通过了。 问：布朗先生，你的头衔是否再次从 CEO变成了其他职位？ 答：是的。 问：变成了什么？ 答：我被提升为总裁。 问：当你成为交易所总裁时，你的工作有发生什么变化吗？ 答：实际上没有什么变化。 问：你是怎么知道自己成为交易所总裁的？ 答：我相信是在另一个会议上，一个小组会议。 问：谁告诉你你不再是 CEO？ 答：我收到了一些同事的信息，他们问我是否被解雇了。 问：在你收到这些问你是否被解雇的信息之前，你对你在交易所的职位有何了解？ 答：我不知道职位变了。 问：如果有的话，谁取代你成为 CEO？ 答：有一个名叫 Kevin的先生，他取代了我。 问：据你所知，谁选了 Kevin 来取代你成为喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：众所周知是郭文贵安排的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 98 / 217页 问：你怎么知道是郭文贵安排 Kevin到交易所的？ 答：Kevin告诉我的。 霍顿律师说：法官大人，我需要一点时间。 问：回到你和王雁平的面试，你被王女士问到你对中国共产党的看法了吗？ 答：没有。 问：你对中国共产党有看法吗？ 答：没有。 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：在你在喜马拉雅交易所的两年半时间里，你认为它是一个政治组织吗？ 答：没有。 霍顿律师说：没有更多问题了，法官大人。 法官说：交叉询问。 舒里克律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 交叉询问 舒里克先生问： 问：下午好，布朗先生。 答：下午好。 问：如果可以，我想回到开始，谈谈你是如何开始涉足加密货币的。 你第一次在区块链和加密货币行业工作是在 2016年左右吗？ 答：是的，2016年末。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 99 / 217页 问：你认为自己是自学成才的吗？ 答：可以这么说。 问：我们稍后会谈到你在喜马拉雅交易所的工作。在喜马拉雅交易所之前，你在这个行业有过很 多其他职位，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：让我们简要回顾一下。你第一个职位是在福特，对吗？ 答：是的，我是—— 问：我继续问，谢谢。那是汽车公司，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在那里做了四到五个月的顾问？ 答：稍微短一些。 问：你能解释一下你在那里做了什么吗？ 答：我是福特的第一个区块链顾问。 问：你下一个职位是与电子健康记录相关的，但也是与加密货币相关的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：概念是你拥有自己的健康记录，但能够通过区块链安全地传送它们？ 答：是的。 问：那是在 2017年吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在那里工作了不到一年？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 100 / 217页 问：为什么只工作了一年？ 答：我被解雇了。 问：然后你去了一个叫 Data Blockchain的公司，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在那里工作了几年？ 答：是的。 问：Data Blockchain 做什么？ 答：这使得小公司更容易购买记录，以便针对特定行业的人群进行营销。因此，一家小型店铺可 以享有与购买价值 10万美元的公司相同的优势。 问：它与广告相关吗？ 答：是的，可以这么说。 问：然后你离开了那里，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：为什么离开？ 答：工作结束了。他们不再想发行代币。 问：然后在某个时候你开始与尼维斯政府谈论一个潜在的加密项目，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：尼维斯是加勒比海的一个岛屿？ 答：是的。 问：你能和我们讲讲那件事吗？ 答：我打算筹集一个代币，使该国能够启动地热发电厂并在那建造数据中心。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 101 / 217页 问：那件事怎么样了？ 答：与政府的沟通有些中断，但从未获得资金。 问：那持续了多久？ 答：这件事反反复复进行了好几年，但你知道，这类事情必须经过多层政府的批准。 问：没有获得进展？ 答：是的。 问：你的下一个职位是在 DTCC，对吗？ 答：是的，没错。 问：DTCC是一个清算所，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：除其他事项外，它还是股票交易、股权交易的结算中心，对吧 答：是的。 由舒里克律师： 问：好的。DTCC是美国最大的清算机构，对吗？ 答：是的，甚至在全球。它每天清算超过一万亿美元的股票交易。 问：这是一个规模很大的操作。 答：是的。 问：你在那里工作了大约四个月，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你为什么离开那份工作？ 答：那是一个顾问角色，结束了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 102 / 217页 问：好的。你在这些职位中都不是编码员或程序员，对吗？ 答：不是。 问：你也不是软件工程师，对吗？ 答：不是。 问：因为你没有正式的计算机科学培训，对吗？ 答：没有。我在大学学过计算机科学。 问：你有获得计算机科学学位吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。即使到今天，你实际上也不在加密项目中编写代码，对吗？你的角色有点不同。 答：我不会用 Solidity编写代码，但我能架构设计，我能阅读和理解。 问：好的 答：但确实，我不——我不创作用在生产环境的代码。 问：好的。所以编写代码不是真正你的强项，对吗？ 答：是的，不是我的强项。 问：正如你之前所说，你更像是一个设计师或架构师—— 答：是的，架构师。 问：——指的是加密项目。好的，很到位。 我们来谈谈——对于我们这些不太熟悉加密和区块链的人来说，如果可以的话，解释一些术语— — 答：好的。 问：——加密和区块链术语，好吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 103 / 217页 答：是的。 问：什么是区块链？ 答：它是一个公共账本，称为分布式账本技术。 问：好的。它允许你记录在链上发生的交易，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。在公共区块链上，这些交易是可见的。 答：是的。 问：但也有可能在公共区块链上进行链下交易，对吗？ 答：据我所知没有。 问：为了明确，有可能在加密货币中进行链下交易，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。猜测。他问的是可能性。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们在直接询问时对此进行了广泛的证词。 法官说：你可以回答。 问：所以，你认为在加密货币中进行链下交易是不可能的，对吗？ 答：不，这是不正确的。 问：好的。那么有私有区块链这种东西吗？ 答：有的。 问：你对此有证词，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：例如，你曾与一个区块链项目合作，这个项目涉及医疗保健行业，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 104 / 217页 问：这是一个私有区块链的例子吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。它不是公开的，任何人都看不到；你必须被邀请成为区块链上的参与者才能看到发生 了什么。 答：是的。 问：你熟悉 JPM Coin吗？ 答：你是指摩根大通吗？ 问：是的。 答：是的。 问：这是另一个私有区块链上交易的代币的例子吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：好的。这些私有区块链上的交易仍然在链上发生，尽管外部的人看不到，对吗？ 答：是的。有隐私保护。 问：好的。那些交易的代币仍然是加密货币，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道我说的中心化加密货币交易所是什么意思吗？ 答：知道。 问：好的。那是什么？解释一下。 答：中心化加密货币交易所是指交易所持有用户的密钥，而密钥是钱包的密钥，所以本质上他们 为用户持有加密货币。 问：好的。所以所有交易所的——撤回。所以所有客户的加密货币都存放在交易所的钱包里，对 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 105 / 217页 答：是的，没错。 问：现在中心化交易所通常会有链下交易吗？ 答：没有。 问：你熟悉 Coinbase吗？ 答：熟悉。 问：好的。所以当Coinbase在两个客户之间促成交易时，所有这些交易都记录在区块链上，对 吗？ 答：是的，会的。 问：所有交易都记录在区块链上？ 答：是的。 霍顿律师说：反对。问过并回答过。 问：所以据你所知，中心化交易所不使用内部机制来匹配订单，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。问过并回答过。 舒里克律师说：那是不同的问题。 法官说：反对有效。 问：现在是否有原因使交易所和用户希望交易发生在链下？ 霍顿律师说：反对。猜测。法官大人—— 法官说：你可以回答。 答：你能再重复一遍吗，律师。 问：当然。用户希望加密货币交易在链下进行的原因是什么？ 答：我想不出有什么原因。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 106 / 217页 问：好的。也许我会给你一些建议，你可以告诉我是否有道理。 链下交易比链上交易结算得更快，对吗？ 答：这取决于当时的网络拥堵情况。 问：当然。但以太坊为例。以太坊有时会很慢，对吗？这是一个—— 答：最近的升级已经消除了大部分问题。 问：让我—— 霍顿律师说：反对。他必须让证人回答问题。 舒里克律师说：我还没结束我的问题。 法官说：你必须让他回答完再问下一个问题。 舒里克律师说：我相信证人在我结束问题前就开始说了。但没关系。我们可以继续。 布朗先生，我们必须等对方说完。 证人说：抱歉，律师。 舒里克律师说：没问题。我也道歉。 舒里克先生问： 问：我的问题是：链下交易可能更快的原因之一是因为它们结算得更快？ 答：我猜你可以这么说。 法官说：我不希望你猜。如果你知道，可以说是或不是，或者你可以说“不知道”或“不记 得”。 证人说：好的。 问：这是一个可能性，对吗？ 法官说：不，我不要求他猜测。不要猜测。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 107 / 217页 答：你能再重复一遍问题吗？ 问：当然。参与者希望链下结算交易的原因之一是它们结算得更快，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，问题的形式，法官大人。 法官说：我允许这个问题。 答：我不同意。即使是——你所指的—— 问：好的。 答：我不同意。我不同意。 问：你熟悉 gas这个词吗？ 答：熟悉。 问：好的。gas是使用公共区块链进行交易时必须支付的费用吗？ 答：是的。 问：你使用公共区块链吗？ 答：不，Gas是以太坊公共区块链的费用。 问：好的。所以，有人可能想进行链下交易的原因之一是因为它们的结算成本较低，因为你不需 要支付 Gas费，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。要求推测。 舒里克律师说：这是他的理解，法官大人。 法官说：我允许提问。 答：没错。 问：好的。实际上，今天有大量的加密货币交易发生在集中交易所，对吗？ 答：对。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 108 / 217页 问：好的。从外部看，你的理解是集中交易所有许多钱包来保存客户的加密货币吗？ 答：是的。 问：并且他们不一定为每个客户都有一个单独的钱包，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。客户可能有他或她，或它自己的钱包，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：但交易所本身有它的钱包，对于它托管的代币，交易所托管的代币，它们存放在这些钱包 里，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对这种作证，法官大人。 法官说：我允许提问。 答：正确。 问：好的。所以当两个用户在 Coinbase上进行交易时，是否这些用户想要交换的代币可能存放 在同一个交易所钱包里？ 答：是的。 问：好的。在这种情况下，如果这两个客户进行交易，你无法从外部看到这笔交易，对吗？ 答：那不是真的。 问：你能看到交易所的钱包，是你的证词吗？ 法官说：维持。问题已问答。 舒里克律师说：好的，法官大人。 问：你能告诉我如何看到 Coinbase的钱包。 答：任何在以太坊区块链上进行的交易，无论是你提到的 Coinbase还是任何二级，都仍然会在 公共区块链上广播。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 109 / 217页 问：现在记住，我只是想确保我们清楚。我之前问你的问题是，如果两个用户的代币保存在同一 个钱包里，一个交易所钱包里，想进行交易。你理解了吗？我说明白了吗？ 答：你能再重复一遍吗。 问：是的，先生。所以如果你在一个交易所上有两个用户，在一个集中交易所，交易所的钱包里 有这两个用户的代币，这些用户进行交易——你跟上我了吗？这有意义吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。当那笔交易发生时，你无法看到那个钱包里面发生的事，对吗？你无法看到交易所的 钱包里面发生的事。 霍顿律师说：反对。问题已问答。 舒里克律师说：他让我澄清，法官大人。我只是想澄清。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：听起来是对的。 问：对。所以如果你有发生在集中交易所的交易，有时你看不到这些交易，因为它们发生在一个 钱包里，而不是在区块链上。 答：说的对。 问：好的。谢谢。 现在让我们回到你的工作经历，谈谈喜马拉雅交易所。 我相信你在直接询问中证实你是在 2020年 6月开始工作的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那是疫情期间，众所周知。对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你和我们一样被困在家里吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 110 / 217页 答：是的。 问：好的。当时加密货币和区块链行业非常热，对吗？很受欢迎？ 答：是的，可以这么说。 问：享受了一些媒体和新闻报道，这么说合理吗？ 答：是的，在那时。 问：好的。你是否也觉得当时你有很多潜在的工作机会？ 答：是的，可以这么说。 问：对。我是说，你记得告诉政府当你与他们会面时你的电话在那段时间里一直响个不停吗？ 答：我的电话一直响个不停。 问：在那段时间。我毫无疑问。 答：一直如此。 问：但在那段时间。只是为了明确。 答：是的。 问：好的。然后你在直接询问中证实，第一次面试是和一位名叫王雁平的人，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。合理的说这是和王女士的初步面试吗？ 答：是的。 问：你是否觉得王女士了解区块链或加密货币？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 舒里克律师说：询问他的印象。 法官说：你可以回答这个问题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 111 / 217页 答：我没有感觉她对区块链或加密货币有很多了解。 问：好的。那只是一个一般性的面试，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：而且相对简短？ 答：大概半小时。还有另一位先生也参与了那次面试。 问：当然。那是一次你和王女士及另一位先生的通话，还是两次？ 答：他们都在同一个电话上。 问：那是一次通话。 答：是的。 问：好的。谢谢你。 那次通话中的那个人是 GTV的首席技术官吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那个人问了你一些关于区块链的问题吗？ 答：问了。 问：好的。接下来你在直接询问中提到的，你和余先生的面试，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。现在和余先生有两次面试，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。 答：是的，我相信。 问：对。第一次面试是在与王女士的第一次面试后不久发生的，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 112 / 217页 答：是的。 问：好的。你在视频通话中进行了这些面试，我相信你证实了。 答：是的。 问：好的。根据你的理解，这个职位的范围是你在面试区块链架构师的职位？ 答：是的。 问：这个职位不是 CEO职位。 答：不是。 问：对。好的。你能告诉我们你在第一次通话中与余先生讨论了什么吗？ 答：我谈到了我的工作经历，并深入讨论了 DTT——DTCC的部分。 问：好的。他对你在 DTCC的工作特别感兴趣吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你深入讨论了区块链和金融？ 答：是的。我完全掌握了这次面试。 问：记录也证明了这一点。 你觉得余建明在金融方面有很多经验，对吗？ 答：非常多。 问：对。你觉得他非常令人印象深刻，对吗？ 答：非常令人印象深刻。 问：知识渊博，对吗？ 答：非常知识渊博。 问：好的。你在第一次面试中没有与余建明讨论 GTV，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 113 / 217页 答：没有。 问：对。那没有提到，对吗？ 答：我不记得提到过。 问：是的。你在谈论一个交易所的概念。 答：我在推销链。 问：当然。加密链？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你谈到的代币之一我认为我们今天提到的是稳定币，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。这基本上就像一种加密美元；这么说合理吗—— 答：这是一个很好的比喻。 问：——比喻？好的。这个想法是加密美元由现金支持，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。最终——我们稍后会谈到这一点，但——最终它成为喜美元，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。然后你谈到的第二个代币是人们称之为交易代币的东西。 答：是的。 问：好的。那最终成为喜币，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：好的。你在这些面试中也与余先生谈到了交易所的长期愿景吗？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 114 / 217页 问：是的。他的长期愿景是什么，据你了解？ 问：他设想的是成为世界上最大的交易所吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。根据你的理解，他是否也试图创建一个生态系统，可以这样说吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。并招募商家接受这些代币支付各种商品和服务，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：好的。那在当时你觉得这是一项非常宏大的愿景吗？ 答：是的，我觉得很酷。 问：好的。现在可以说你与余先生的两次面试比与王女士的初步面试更有实质内容，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你觉得与余先生的面试是更重要的，对吗？ 答：我觉得它们都很重要。 问：好的。你觉得你必须给余先生留下深刻印象吗？ 答：是的，当你试图得到一份工作时，你必须给任何人留下深刻印象。 问：你之前说你完全搞定了，对吗？ 答：是的，拿捏了。 问：是的，你拿捏了，拿捏了。所以你觉得你需要给他留下深刻印象；可以这么说吗？ 答：只是—— 霍顿律师说：问题已问答。 答：只是做我该做的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 115 / 217页 问：我们明白了。我们明白了。 现在你是否觉得余先生是决定雇佣谁的决策者？ 答：是的。 问：是的。你知道他是否在面试其他候选人吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 舒里克律师说：根据他的知识。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我不知道有其他人。 舒里克律师说：所以，如果我们能简要的调出证据中的政府证物，。 问：你看到这个文件了吗，布朗先生？ 答：看到了，律师。 问：在直接询问中你被展示了这个文件，对吗？ 答：能再说一遍吗。 问：你在直接询问中被展示了这个文件—— 答：是的，是的。 问：——对吗？好的。这是 GTV发出的聘书，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。在你接受这份工作之前，你查过郭先生吗？ 答：我不认为我查过。 问：好的。那么当时你不知道郭媒体是什么，对吗？ 答：嗯，我可以收回吗。我确实做了一些研究，嗯，常规的快速查询。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 116 / 217页 问：好的。你认为这些公司——GTV是与郭先生有关联的，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。我相信你说过你认为你在喜马拉雅交易所的工作与 GTV的工作是同一个工作，对 吗？ 答：嗯，我是被 GTV雇佣的。 问：对。你再与王女士交谈过吗？ 答：我再与她交谈过一次。 问：那次谈话的目的是什么？ 答：她打电话来推动我们的开发工作。他们对我们没有按时交付非常失望，正如我之前在证词中 所说的。 问：好的。那次通话与 GTV无关，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 法官说：维持。 问：好的。什么是郭媒体？对不起，让我收回这句话。 在 2020年 6月的这个时间点，你对郭媒体的理解是什么？ 答：只是一个由很多社交媒体公司和出版物组成的大集团，很多是政治驱动的。 问：你在 2020年 6月了解这一点吗？ 答：是的，我想是的。 问：那么，郭媒体与 GTV有什么不同，根据你在 2020年 6月的理解？ 答：我不知道。我不知道。 问：你能说出一个郭媒体的员工名字吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 117 / 217页 答：我第一次面试的那个人，是的。 问：除了——你知道她是郭媒体的员工吗？ 答：或者是——技术主管，是的。 问：好的。除了你交谈过的两个人之外，你能再说出一个郭媒体的员工名字吗？ 答：我不能。 问：你能说出另一个 GTV的员工名字吗？ 答：我不能说出名字，但我后来与他们进行过几次视频通话。 问：好的。为了明确，你在喜马拉雅交易所的服务与 Guo News和郭媒体是不同的，分开的，对 吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。这是一个复合问题。 舒里克律师说：我会逐个来问。 法官说：好的。 问：为了明确，你在喜马拉雅交易所的工作是与 GTV分开的，对吗？ 答：我不会这么说。一开始，我是被 GTV雇佣的。我与他们的公关人员——我的意思是，与他 们的人力资源人员交谈。 问：哪位先生 —— 答：相当多。 问：我只是想让你听我的问题，好吗？ 答：好的。 问：除了面试那些你认为在 GTV工作的人之外，你有没有与 GTV的其他人一起工作？ 霍顿律师说：问题已问答。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 118 / 217页 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我有。我与人力资源一起工作。 问：与—— 答：与 GTV。 问：让我说完。这是我们必须互相说完话的部分，好吗？ 答：对不起，律师。 问：所以你与人力资源一起工作以便配置好由 GTV支付给你的工资，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。除此之外，你有没有与 GTV一起工作过？ 答：没有。 问：好的。对郭媒体也是同样的问题。除了最初的行政配置外，你有没有与郭媒体一起工作？ 答：没有。 问：好的。现在我们回到问题。你在喜马拉雅交易所的工作是与 GTV分开的，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：它与郭媒体无论那是什么都是分开的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。我相信你在直接询问中说过，你从未见过你的——应该说——你的喜马拉雅交易所工 作同事，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。那么在那时喜马拉雅是一家初创公司，对吗？ 答：对。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 119 / 217页 问：好的。它在那段时间内有员工——我们现在只关注 2020年 6月——它有员工分布在世界各 地，对吗？ 答：嗯，在 2020年 6月，只有我们三个人，但他们确实分布在世界各地。 问：分布在世界各地，对吗？正如我们之前提到的，这是在 COVID期间，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。那些分布在世界各地的人，地理位置上，有些在英国，对吗？ 答：对。 问：有些在澳大利亚？ 答：是的。 问：这么说合理吗？ 答：合理。 问：你那时候在美国？ 答：是的。 问：还有一些人在其他地方，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。所以在 COVID还在的时候，人们并没有太多旅行，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：对。你知道，你不认为你两年半里工作的那些人不是真实的人，对吗？ 答：不，他们是真实的人。 问：他们是真实的人，对吗？做着真实的工作。 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 120 / 217页 问：好的。为了明确，仅仅因为你没有亲自见过他们，并不意味着他们不是做着真实工作的真实 人，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。我相信你在直接询问中说过，GTV从 2020年 6月到 12月支付你的工资，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：好的。然后不久之后你开始由喜马拉雅支付工资，对吗？ 答：在我被 GTV抛弃后。 问：嗯，我们会谈到这一点。让我们只说事实，好吗？ 问题是：在你离开 GTV之后，你由喜马拉雅支付工资，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你知道汉密尔顿或喜马拉雅是否偿还了 GTV支付给你的工资吗？ 答：我不知道，律师。 问：好的。那么当你开始在喜马拉雅工作时——现在重置并回到那时——当你在 2020年 6月开 始在喜马拉雅工作时，你知道要向余先生报告，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。这一开始对你来说就很清楚。 答：是的。 问：好的。因为你一开始与他有通话，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。你与他有一些 Skype 消息？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 121 / 217页 问：好的。在那时，正如你之前提到的，喜马拉雅还雇佣了其他一些人，对吗？ 答：那是——那是正确的。 问：还有一些像你一样的高级人员，对吗？ 答：是的，但他们不是喜马拉雅的员工。 问：好的。 答：严格来说。 问：我们会谈到这个。 当你开始为交易所工作时，它还没有被称为喜马拉雅交易所，对吗？ 答：我不确定那是否是真的。我相信在我离开 GTV并去那工作时，它已经被称为喜马拉雅交易 所了。 问：好的。你记得告诉政府在你与他们的会面中，你对命名喜马拉雅交易所有一些意见吗？ 答：我对命名喜马拉雅交易所没有意见，但对代币有意见。 问：好吧，合理。 Marios Mamzeris是谁？ 答：他是首席运营官。 问：好的。Marios 也是在你大约同一时间被雇佣的人吗？ 答：是的。我是助理——是的。 问：是就可以了。 答：是的。 问：好的。他是一名区块链顾问，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 122 / 217页 问：他最终成为了我们刚才提到的首席运营官。 答：那是正确的。 问：他在希腊工作，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。你们都远程一起工作。 答：那是真的。 问：好的。还有一个人——你可能需要帮助我——叫 Di，对吗？ 答：是的。Di，Di。 问：对不起。Di。那是他的名字还是姓氏？ 答：那是他的名字。 问：他的姓是什么？ 答：我记不起来了。 问：好的。 答：很遗憾。 问：你和 Di一起工作了多久？ 答：整个期间。 问：两年半？ 答：是的。 问：好的。他是 IT主管吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。他也是在同一时间被雇佣的吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 123 / 217页 答：我不确定那是否是真的。我相信他在那之前就已经为余建明工作了。 问：他是在大约同一时间被引入这个项目的吗？ 答：他在我之前，在我之前一段时间。 问：好的。但—— 答：是的。 问：在你加入后的几个月内，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。然后还有一个合规人员也是在大约同一时间加入的吗？ 答：合规人员是在一两个月后加入的。 问：好的，合理。我认为在几个月内可以算作大约同一时间，如果你觉得这有道理。 答：合理。 问：好的。当你加入交易所项目时，你是否理解这个项目已经在澳大利亚获得了许可证？ 答：我不确定是否已经获得了，但很快就获得了。 问：当然。所以要么已经获得，要么正在获得过程中。 答：正确。 问：最终确实获得了澳大利亚的许可证。 答：对的。 问：这个许可证是干什么用的？ 答：许可证是为了——为了交易所在澳大利亚作为一个交易所开展业务。 问：好的。正如我们之前提到的，还有一个合规人员是在澳大利亚，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 124 / 217页 问：好的。但最终交易所决定放弃在澳大利亚运营的想法，因为税务问题；这是你的理解吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。现在我们简要谈谈汉密尔顿。 你在 2020年 6月开始工作后，熟悉了汉密尔顿，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你理解汉密尔顿是一家投资公司；这样说合理吗？ 答：是的，很合理。 问：它有一个咨询部门，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。两者都是由余先生创办的，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：他是两者的所有者。 答：实际受益人（UBO），是的。 问：UBO。好的。我本不打算用这个词，但你用了，所以我们就用这个词。所以他是 UBO。 问：现在，根据你的理解，汉密尔顿在那时在英国有一个相当大的办公室，对吗？ 答：他们最终有了一个办公室，是的。 问：好的。随着汉密尔顿的发展，他们开始安置更多的人，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：更多的人参与交易所项目的工作，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我相信你之前说过，汉密尔顿和余先生在疫情期间很难找到人来办公室工作，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 125 / 217页 答：找到有才能的人。 问：对。余先生希望人们到办公室工作，对吗？ 答：是的，那是一个要求。 问：好的。正如你所说，因此，在你看来，你觉得由于这个要求，交易所项目可能没有找到一些 他们本可以找到的最好的人才，对吗？ 答：是真的。 问：好的。现在，即使在这个阶段，现在是 2020年下半年，为了标注一个时间点，仍然可以说 交易所项目处于初创阶段，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。初创阶段有很多激动人心的事；人们对建设这个产品感到兴奋，可以这么说吗？ 答：可以这么说。 问：对吧？充满激情？ 答：充满激情。 问：对。还有很多事情要做。 答：你能再重复一遍吗。 问：还有很多事情要做。 答：是的。 问：对。特别是考虑到我们之前提到的余先生的宏大目标，对吗？ 答：对。 问：可以说，有时会感到力不从心？ 答：我没有感到力不从心。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 126 / 217页 问：好的。你在直接询问中说过你从未见过余先生，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。这是在 COVID期间。这覆盖了你工作期间的很大一部分，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。当你加入交易所时——再次说明，我关注的是 2020年下半年到 2021年初——可以说 你觉得为了启动这个项目花了很多钱，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你能给我们举一些例子吗？ 答：我们的——嗯，我们有庞大的薪资，有巨大的技术账单和巨大的云账单，我们在开发数据中 心。 问：好的。你还有各种外部供应商，对吗？ 答：是的，很多。 问：我相信你告诉政府你认为 IT支出达到数百万美元，仅仅是为了启动，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。在这一点上，你理解这些启动成本的钱来自余先生，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：是在初期——抱歉，撤回。在 2020年和 2021年初，交易所在 2021年 4月之前没有向任何 人出售任何代币，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：交易所没有筹集任何资金，据你所知，对吗？ 答：据我所知。 问：对。他们在那段时间没有出售任何喜币？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 127 / 217页 答：没有。 问：他们在那段时间没有出售任何喜美元？ 答：没有。 问：好的。对你来说很清楚，在这段时间内用于建设交易所的钱不是来自投资者。 答：是的。 问：也不是来自代币购买者。 答：是的。 问：或者任何其他人，据你所知。 答：是的。 问：好的。我相信你告诉政府——我是否正确——那是一种—— 法官说：你证实没有代币购买；对吗？ 舒里克律师说：在那个时间点，法官大人。 证人说：在那个时间点。 法官说：好的。继续。 问：那是一种——收回。 你和你的同事会谈论为建立交易所而花费了多少钱，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。传闻。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：是的，是的，我们中的一些人——我们中的一些人谈论过巨大的开支，是的。 问：是的。好的。简要谈谈交易所的领导团队。 你谈到余先生，对吗，他是 UBO？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 128 / 217页 答：是的。 问：在这个时候，他实际上是运营的负责人，对吗？不论头衔，他在掌控一切，对吗？ 答：总负责人。 问：是的，当然。然后你谈到 David Fallon，他是汉密尔顿的 CEO，对吗？这是你的理解吗？ 答：不确定是否知道他是 CEO。我知道他是基金经理。 问：好的，合理。但他是汉密尔顿的高级人物—— 答：是的。 问：——合理吗？也许他下面有一个经理。 答：是的。 问：Tim Clark是谁？ 答：是的，他是——他是第一个 CTO。 问：好的。你不喜欢他，对吗？ 答：不喜欢他的技能。但我喜欢他这个人。 问：当然。好的。但在某个时候——嗯，收回。 在这个时间点——再次强调，关注 2020年底，2021年初——Tim是首席技术官，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的，后来他被其他人取代了，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。然后 Tom O'Leary是谁？ 答：他是那时被雇佣的首席营销官。 问：然后我们谈到Marios Mamzeris。他是 COO，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 129 / 217页 答：是的。 问：好的。Azeem Bashir 呢？ 答：他是首席安全官。 问：好的。所以他是首席信息官，首席安全官？ 答：是的，是的。 问：约翰·王是谁？ 答：约翰·王。我不记得这个名字。 问：好的。Hesop Chin 呢？ 答：他是来自澳大利亚的合规官。 问：所以这是我们之前提到的人。 答：是的。 问：Hesop是交易所的首席合规官，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。Ehsan Haque 呢？ 答：他是当时的首席法律顾问。 问：好的。现在我想我们列出了大约八九个在这段时间里在交易所工作的高级人物；可以这么说 吗？ 答：他们是为汉密尔顿咨询公司工作。 问：对。他们花了很多时间在交易所项目上，对吗？因为那些是你一起工作的人。 答：是这样的。 问：对。所以可以说在那段时间里有八九个高级人员在交易所工作吗？在交易所上？请原谅。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 130 / 217页 答：在春季。秋季没有那么多。 问：我们说的是，对不起，2020年—— 答：是的，在第一——让所有这些高管入职花了一些时间，所以大概在 2021年 1月所有人才到 位。 问：好的。合理。谢谢。谢谢你的澄清。 所以在 2020年秋季和冬季，交易所还在招募人才和高级人员，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你记得，大约在 2021年 1月，这些人基本到位。 答：是的。 问：好的。那么在高峰时期，汉密尔顿有多少人在为交易所工作，大约？ 答：嗯，有 200 名员工—— 问：好的。 答：——在伦敦，在某个时候。 问：对。那么交易所——收回。 理解汉密尔顿的咨询部门是这些人的前雇主，好吗？我们接受这个。但那些人是在为交易所项目 工作；这样说合理吗？ 答：是合理的，律师。 问：合理的描述？好的。那么理解这一点，可以说交易所雇佣了多个在交易所工作的金融人员 吗？ 答：那是合理的。 问：还有多个在交易所工作的 IT人员？ 答：多个，多个。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 131 / 217页 问：是的，正确。还有多个开发人员，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那么交易所还有一个 24/7的客户服务热线，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。那是什么时候开始的？ 答：那也是早期，大约在同一时间。可能晚了几周让所有人到位。 问：好的。合理。交易所在 2021年后期才真正有客户，我们稍后会谈到，对吗？ 答：是的，那是一个培训和入职期。 问：所以交易所在准备和准备好提供客户服务功能时，预计会有客户。 答：是的。 问：好的。那也是一个 24/7的运营，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：而且不是外包的，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：他们是直接由交易所或汉密尔顿雇佣的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：客户服务人员会说普通话和英语，对吗？ 答：大多数，是的。 问：可以说你觉得这很令人印象深刻吗？ 答：是的。 问：好。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 132 / 217页 好的。现在我们谈谈日常工作。我相信你在直接询问中也提到过，你们每天都有电话会议；这样 说合理吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那些电话会议对你来说开始得很早，对吗？ 答：早上 7 点。 问：是的。早上 7 点，因为很多其他人都在大洋彼岸，比你早几个小时。 答：是的。 问：按时区划分。 答：是的。 问：有时你会和不同的高级同事一对一会议？ 答：是的。 问：好的。有时你会和余建明一对一会议吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。那么你有没有和余建明开会，同时还有一两个其他人在场？ 答：有的。 问：好的。他在会议中很少单独出现；他有一些随从，对吗？ 答：对，对。 问：但理解这一点，在这段时间里你和余建明有很多互动，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。可以说你的每周安排包括周一的全员会议吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 133 / 217页 问：会议由余建明或 Azeem主持，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：然后周二是技术会议，对吗？ 答：我记得是的。 问：好的。会议由首席技术官主持，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：根据时间，有时会议上有 20 到 30 个人，对吗，周二的会议？ 答：不。大概 10 到 15 人。 问：好的。周二的会议上有 10 到 15 人。 然后周三有运营会议，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：会议由交易所的 COO主持，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：好的。平均有多少人参加？ 答：与技术会议人数差不多。 问：好的。然后周四有财务会议，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。周五有利益相关者会议，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这是用来描述包括你在内的较高级别团队的说法。 答：那是真的，但大多数利益相关者都参与了所有会议。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 134 / 217页 问：是的，合理，但你们有一个单独的电话会议—— 答：是的。 问：——与一个较小的高级团队。 答：正确。 问：好的。在这个项目上工作的人非常多，是不是？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你记得——我相信你在直接询问中也提到过，你填写了我称之为时间表的东西？我不 知道这是否是正确的词。但你知道我在说什么吗？ 答：知道。知道。 问：好的。你在图表格式中列出了一个月里每周做了什么，对吗？ 答：那是对的。 问：总结来说。 答：正确。 问：好的。这是你向交易所开账单以便获得报酬的方式。 答：对的。对的。 问：好的。那么在这段时间你的薪水是多少？ 答：我相信我起薪 18 万美元。 问：好的。现在我们谈谈交易所从监管角度的演变。 我们之前谈到过，交易所最初认为它可能会使用澳大利亚的许可证运营，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。但那被放弃了，我们之前讨论过，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 135 / 217页 答：对。 问：好的。然后转向可能在英属维京群岛运营，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我们会谈到冲浪。我保证。 答：好的。 问：我想听更多关于那方面的事情。 现在关于转向英属维京群岛的决定，你了解为什么吗？ 答：我相信那是一个可以在当时无需许可证发行代币的司法管辖区。 问：好的。所以从监管角度来看是有利的。 答：是的。 问：从监管角度来看更加宽松。 答：在当时是的。 问：在当时，对。你实际上被要求去英属维京群岛，对吗？ —— 答：是的。 问：好的。去探索在那里建立一个实体，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你实际上在那里雇佣了律师，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你对雇佣谁提出了建议，对吗？ 答：不，我没有提出建议。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 136 / 217页 问：你见过那些律师吗？ 答：见过。 问：好的。然后有一个英属维京群岛沙盒申请，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你在直接询问中提到过这个，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。这大约是什么时候，你去英属维京群岛探索沙盒？ 答：我相信是在 2021年晚春或夏天，但我不记得确切时间。 问：好的。好的，合理。 但肯定是 2021年；不是 2020年。 答：是的。 问：是的。好的，合理。 我相信你在直接询问中还提到过你在英属维京群岛寻找潜在的办公空间—— 答：是的。 问：——对吗？你还寻找了一些电信服务提供商？ 答：是的，是的，我做了。 问：像数据，互联网服务提供商？ 答：是的。 问：一个加密货币交易所需要这些，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你还与英属维京群岛金融服务委员会的人交谈过，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 137 / 217页 答：是的，是的。 问：那是金融服务—— 答：委员会。 问：——委员会？ 答：或者是委员会。是的，其中一个。 问：无论如何；它是英属维京群岛的监管机构。 答：对。它是那里的监管机构。 问：理解。监管机构。 你和他们谈过那个沙盒申请，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在英属维京群岛待了多久？ 答：我每次只去几个星期，但我来回了几次。 问：好的。两次，多于两次？ 答：我想是三次。 问：三次。好的。这个沙盒申请是因为英属维京群岛希望吸引创新技术和商业进入岛屿—— 霍顿律师说：反对。 问：——据你理解？ 法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 答：是的。 问：好的。沙盒这个词是个比喻，对吗，表示可以自由发挥？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 138 / 217页 问：对吗？ 答：是的。 问：因为规则比较宽松，如你之前所述。 答：是的。 问：对。好的。你发现要成功通过英属维京群岛的沙盒申请，你需要有大约 50%的员工在岛上工 作，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：对。可以说这是个困难的条件，因为交易所的大多数员工分布在世界各地，对吗？ 答：我不确定这是否合理。 问：无论如何，这是你们发现的一个困难条件，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。问题已问答。 法官说：反对有效。 舒里克律师说：我问过这个问题吗？好的。 问：无论如何，你们最终放弃了英属维京群岛的努力，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：但可以说，至少达到了一定的成熟阶段，作为一个可能的运营地点，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对问题形式。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：那是一个合理的说法。 问：好的。为此投入了大量资源，对吗？ 答：不，那不正确。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 139 / 217页 问：没有投入大量资源？ 霍顿律师说：反对。问题已问答。 法官说：反对有效。 问：好的。交易所是否雇佣了律师来处理沙盒申请？ 答：是的，他们雇佣了律师。 问：好的。他们也在支付你的工资，对吗？ 答：他们在支付我工资。 问：好的。我猜你不认为那是重大投资？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我不认为，因为他们不愿意支付租金。 问：租金是指—— 答：是的，他们不愿意为办公室支付押金。 问：好的。好的，没问题。所以他们不愿意支付办公室的费用。 无论原因是什么，那最终没有实现，��吗？ 答：是的。 问：如果实现了会很好。 答：非常遗憾。 问：是的。如果实现了会很好。 当你在那里的时候，我想你说过你做了一些其他项目？ 答：我说过吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 140 / 217页 问：我们换种方式问。你在英属维京群岛时是否做了一些与交易所无关的其他项目？ 答：是的，我那时确实有一个其他项目。 问：好的。我相信你在直接询问中说过你每天实际上只为交易所工作三到四小时，对吗？ 答：可以这么说。 问：对。剩下的时间你要么在冲浪，要么在做其他项目，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。那么在交易所放弃——嗯，收回。 你能给我们一个大致的估计，什么时候决定不再做英属维京群岛的事？ 答：我相信是在我们被沙盒申请拒绝之后。 问：对。好的。然后转向了阿布扎比，对吗？ 答：对的，律师。 问：好的。然后交易所开始努力在阿布扎比获得许可证，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：好的。这——收回。 余先生是否曾问过你是否愿意搬到英属维京群岛，如果交易所成功在那里落地？ 答：他问过。 问：他问过。你告诉他你愿意，对吗？ 答：非常愿意。 问：听起来是的。 余先生是否还问过你是否愿意为这份工作搬到其他地方？ 答：他问过。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 141 / 217页 问：好的。他是否问过你是否愿意在美国境内搬迁？ 答：是的。 问：他是否问过你是否愿意搬到欧洲？ 答：没有。 问：搬到英国？ 答：没有。 问：好的。某个时候他是否问过你是否愿意搬到阿布扎比？ 答：他问过。 问：好的。那是你不愿意去的地方，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。那么—— 舒里克律师说：对不起，我可以请示一下法官。 问：好的。谈到阿布扎比，你的印象是余先生在那里感到舒服，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 问：他了解那里的环境？ 法官说：你可以回答，他是否感到—— 法官说：你通过观察他，是否觉得他感到舒适。 答：是的。 问：是的。就像他在那里了解环境？ 答：了解环境并有联系。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 142 / 217页 问：对。好的。在这个时间点——我们谈论的是阿布扎比——大约是 2021年初秋；这样说合理 吗？ 答：2021年初秋。不，我——我相信那应该是 2022年的事情。 问：好的。 答：不过我不确定日期。 问：好的。合理。这是在你在那里工作的后期阶段；可以说吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。现在我想谈谈这个在直接询问中被多次提到的信用系统。 答：好的。 问：可以吗？你能告诉我这个信用系统是如何运作的吗？ 答：当然可以。用户会被加入到交易所，他们会经过一个合规检查清单，交易所接受他们，然后 他们会被要求充值他们的账户，用美元购买这些信用。 问：好的。 答：然后这些信用会显示在他们账户的仪表盘上。 问：好的。明白了。对不起。我听到你用了“充值”这个词。 答：是的。 问：为什么特别使用这个词？ 答：是的，这是一个伦敦用语。 问：当然。根据你的理解，使用这个词的部分原因是因为“存款”这个词会暗示银行交易，对吗？ 答：那是对的。 问：对。所以“充值”是一个更好的表达方式，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 143 / 217页 答：有一些讨论，最终我们选择了“充值”。 问：好的。所以一旦——让我们称之为美元。这样说合理吗，几乎总是使用美元来充值账户？ 答：是的。 问：好的。所以一旦美元被放入账户，据我所知——你可以确认这一点——客户会在喜马拉雅的 内部记录上收到等值的信用，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，律师在阐述他的理解。 舒里克律师说：我可以重新措辞。我愿意重新措辞。 法官说：继续。 问：这样说合理吗，客户会用美元充值账户，然后交易所会在其内部账本上为客户记上一笔相应 的加密货币信用？ 霍顿律师说：反对问题形式。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：那是一个合理的说法，是的，那是真的。 问：好的。当客户想进行交易时，交易所会在其内部账本上相应地移动这些信用，对吗？ 答：这是我的理解，是的。 问：好的。如果一个用户—— 法官说：你在证实你理解的系统还是实际发生的情况？ 证人说：我理解的系统。 法官说：换句话说，那是你理解的计划？ 证人说：是的，是的。 法官说：继续。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 144 / 217页 舒里克律师说： 问：当一个用户想用持有的喜美元购买喜币时，那笔交易会在交易所的内部账本上完成，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：所以你可以用喜美元信用来购买喜币，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。然后喜币信用可以与其他持有喜币或喜美元的人交易，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：喜美元信用可以兑换成现金，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。那么可以说我们刚刚谈到的那个信用系统并不是交易所打算永久使用的，对吗？ 答：我相信可以这么说。 问：对。你们有计划进一步开发系统，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：并逐步摆脱信用系统，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。最终的计划是交易所在链上运营，对吗？ 答：那是计划。 问：并取消信用系统，对吗？ 答：最终是的。 问：对。计划是交易所成为一个常规的加密货币交易所，可以交易喜币和喜美元以外的其他加密 货币，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 145 / 217页 答：那是一个目标，是的。 问：对。与其他加密货币交易所没有什么不同，对吗，可以交易其他加密货币。 答：是的，那时会更像一个典型的交易所。 问：好的。那些目标是我们之前谈到的喜马拉雅团队正在努力实现的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。实际上，正如我们之前谈到的，计划是交易所最终成为一个全面的生态系统。 答：雄心勃勃的计划，是的。 问：是的，合理。我们之前谈到了。非常雄心勃勃，但那是计划。 实际上，人们正在朝这个方向努力，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：问题已问答。 舒里克律师说：生态系统不同，法官大人。 法官说：反对有效。 问：好的。作为生态系统的一部分，交易所计划建立一个叫做商户门户的东西，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那是什么？ 答：那是一个门户，包括零售客户，可以接受喜币或喜美元作为支付并发货。 问：好的。对。在这个上下文中，商户指的是企业，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以这个想法是交易所在建立一个系统，允许企业接受在交易所交易的代币。 答：那是对的。 问：对。所以人们可以用那些代币进行交易。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 146 / 217页 答：是的。 问：对。你知道 H Pay吗？ 答：知道。 问：好的。汉密尔顿和交易所的人在开发一个 H Pay应用程序，对吗？ 答：那是真的。 问：好的。汉密尔顿的人抱怨商户门户没有按他们希望的速度建立起来，对吗？ 答：不是汉密尔顿的人抱怨。 问：没有—— 答：你能重新措辞吗。 问：当然。余先生是否在某些时候对商户门户没有按他希望的速度建立起来感到沮丧？ 答：是的。 问：对。他对生态系统没有按他希望的速度建立起来有点沮丧吗？ 答：在较小的程度上。 问：好的。H Pay也是这样吗？ 答：H Pay开始得更晚，所以没有很大的沮丧，但可能有些小的沮丧。 问：但它开始了；在 H Pay上确实有实际工作，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：商户门户上也有实际工作，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。在你在那里的整个期间，你没有看到任何迹象表明人们没有在努力实现这些目标，对 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 147 / 217页 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。你记得告诉政府你觉得余先生在努力让商户加入平台吗？ 答：你能再说一遍吗。 问：当然。我再试一次。你记得在与政府的会议上告诉他们你觉得余先生在努力让商户加入平台 吗？ 答：我不记得说过。 问：好的。我们看看能不能刷新你的记忆。 舒里克律师说：我们能调出给双方和证人看一下文件的第 13页吗，乔治。 法官大人，请允许我稍作停顿。 问：布朗先生，你看到屏幕上的文件摘录了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你看到文件中的高亮部分了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：好的。这刷新了你的记忆吗—— 答：刷新了。 问：——你告诉政府的吗？ 答：是的。谢谢。 问：所以你确实在与政府的会议上告诉他们余先生在努力让商户加入平台，对吗？ 答：是的。 霍顿律师说：问题已问答。 舒里克律师说：我们只是澄清一下。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 148 / 217页 法官说：问题已问答。反对有效。 问：好的。所以根据你的经验，在你在交易所的期间，你没有看到任何迹象表明人们没有在努力 让商户加入平台，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：对吗？ 霍顿律师说：问题已问答，法官大人。 法官说：反对有效。 问：他们并不总是成功，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。你认为团队有点太分散了；这样说合理吗？ 答：团队太分散了？ 问：是的。 答：我不确定——这不是——我不确定那是我会说的。我觉得人太多了。 问：好的。我们看看能不能让你回忆起来。 答：好的。 舒里克律师说：把同一个文件调出来。 稍等一下。 法官说：问题不在于文件是否这么说；问题在于文件是否让你回忆起来你说过这些话。 证人说：明白了，法官大人。 舒里克律师说：好的，谢谢。那么我们能不能只给双方、法庭和证人看这个文件。 如果我们能放大并只突出相关部分。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 149 / 217页 舒里克律师说： 问：布朗先生，你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：好的。现在我要给你看另一个摘录。 稍等一下。 好的，谢谢你的耐心。我想我们现在有了。 布朗先生，这是同一个文件，但不同的条目，给你提供一些背景？ 霍顿律师说：对不起，现在有问题吗？ 法官说：文件已经显示了。我认为问题是这是否刷新了他的记忆。 舒里克律师说：是的。 答：确实刷新了，但这是——这是在技术团队的背景下。 问：合理。我还没问那个问题，但我明白了。 重点是，你告诉政府，你认为技术团队太分散了，对吗？ 答：早期是的。 法官说：你说的是在技术团队的背景下，而不是在什么背景下？ 证人说：整体——整体员工太臃肿。所以营销团队，其他部门人手过多。 问：好的。技术团队太分散了，他们试图建立一个完整的生态系统，比他们能力所及的要多，对 吗？ 答：是的，是的。 问：好的。再说一遍，在你在交易所的时间里，你没有看到任何迹象表明技术团队没有尽力建设 那个生态系统。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 150 / 217页 霍顿律师说：问题已问答，法官大人。 舒里克律师说：我们现在谈论的是技术团队，法官大人。我认为这是不同的问题。 法官说：你可以回答关于技术团队的问题。 答：你能再重复一遍吗？ 问：当然可以。那么在你在交易所的时间里，你没有看到任何迹象表明技术团队没有尽力建设那 个生态系统，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。那是正确的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，如果法庭觉得合适，在我转到另一个话题之前，这可能是一 个好的时间点。 法官说：好的。现在是 2:29。我们现在休息，3:00回来。 记住，不要在你们之间或与任何人讨论这个案子。不要让任何人在你们面前讨论这个案子。不要 阅读、观看或听任何涉及此案的内容。 先生，你可以离开法庭。不要讨论你的证词。 （陪审团不在场） （证人不在场） 法官说：我们休息之前还有什么要处理的吗？ 霍顿律师说：只是一个简短的内部事务，法官大人。如果辩方能提供一个估计，剩下的 交叉询问还会持续多久，这会对证人安排有帮助。 法官说：交叉询问还会持续多久？ 霍顿律师说：对的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我目前的最好估计是可能还要 45 分钟。 法官说：好的。稍后见。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 151 / 217页 （休庭） 法官说：请把陪审员带进来。 书记员：陪审团进入。 （陪审团在场） 法官说：请坐。记住你们仍在宣誓中。你可以继续交叉询问。 舒里克律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 由舒里克律师： 问：布朗先生，你在直接询问中提到过白皮书。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：我相信你作证说，发布白皮书是一种在发行代币之前的行业惯例，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：事实上，你参与了喜币的白皮书的编写，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：也参与了喜美元的编写？ 答：那是真的。 问：我们能不能调出 2021年 4月的喜美元白皮书。我相信它是 GXBR-190。 提醒陪审团，喜美元是我们之前谈到的现金支持代币，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：编写这些白皮书的过程相当复杂，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：大约花了 10 到 11 个月；这样说合理吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 152 / 217页 答：非常艰难，是的。 问：你在起草过程中起了很大作用，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你和其他人一起工作，但你起了很大的作用？ 答：是的。 问：我们来看一下，页面上有 Bates编号末尾是 9898的部分。 在我们调出这部分时，布朗先生，这个日期是 2021年 4月，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这是 2021年 4月的日期。这大约是第一次私募代币发行的时候，对吗；这样说合理吗？ 答：这样说合理。 问：因为在 2021年 11月之前，我们稍后会谈到，在那之前只是对亲朋好友的私募，对吗，这样 说合理吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以这份文件是与那次私募相关的，合理吗，或者至少是在同一时间左右？ 答：大约在同一时间。 问：将会有一次销售，所以你发布关于正在出售的东西的信息？ 答：那是真的。 问：现在我们在这一页上，你可不可以看到顶部写着喜马拉雅美元解决方案。你看到了吗？ 答：是的。 问：这已经发布给陪审团了吗？是的。好的。 我要读一小段，你告诉我是否正确。第三段开头的“会员”这个词。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 153 / 217页 喜马拉雅交易所的会员将能够通过在喜马拉雅交易所购买喜美元信用来参与发行喜马拉雅美元。 你看到了吗？ 答：是的。 问：然后往下两段，句子开头的“如果市场”。你看到这里写着，如果喜美元信用市场出现显著的 流动性短缺，发行人将有能力使用储备资金提供流动性支持。你看到了吗？ 答：是的。 问：然后再往下两段，句子开头的“此外”。除了交易解决方案的好处，喜美元信用还设计用于通 过“喜马拉雅支付应用”进行使用。喜马拉雅支付应用将在第三阶段启动，将允许会员使用喜美元 信用在喜马拉雅生态系统内向接受喜马拉雅支付的商家进行国内和跨境支付。它定义了喜马拉雅 生态系统。会员还将能够将喜美元信用从他们的喜马拉雅支付账户转移到其他会员的喜马拉雅支 付账户。我读得对吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在，这描述了我们今天早些时候讨论的喜美元信用系统吗？ 答：那是合理的。 问：这也描述了预期推出的 H Pay应用程序，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我们能不能看一下下一页。 顶部写着“推出”。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：一般来说，这张幻灯片或页面展示了生态系统的分阶段推出计划；这样说合理吗？ 答：是的，那是合理的。 问：事实上，左上角写着分阶段推出的预期时间表，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 154 / 217页 问：我们读一下。它写着，喜马拉雅交易所预启动和喜美元的发布，私募参与者。 暂停一下，你理解这是我们刚刚谈到的私募吗？ 答：我理解，是的。 问：它写着，私募参与者可以申请开设一个喜马拉雅交易所账户并完成 KYC程序，开设账户 后，私募参与者可以通过以 1:1 的比例用美元购买喜马拉雅美元信用来充值他们的账户。 如果我们缩小到第二部分，请问，喜马拉雅币发行。你理解喜马拉雅币是喜币吗？ 答：是的。 问：这里写着，私募参与者的注册期限到期。私募参与者可以购买最多相当于其分配数量的喜币 信用？ 霍顿律师说：法官大人，我们可以与辩护律师商量一下吗？ 法官说：可以。 （律师讨论） 舒里克律师说：谢谢你，法官大人。 问：然后如果我们看第三个箭头，它写着，完整的喜马拉雅交易所和喜马拉雅支付应用程序发 布。在此之下写着，会员可以通过其在喜马拉雅交易所的账户开始交易喜美元、喜币和其他加密 资产信用。喜马拉雅交易所向公众开放注册和交易。喜马拉雅支付应用程序将使会员能够开始在 全球范围内发送和接收付款。这再次描述了预期的喜支付应用程序的推出，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：法官大人，我们可以上前吗？有个观察。 法官说：好的。 （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 霍顿律师说：法官大人，你还记得在一周前的 Robert先生的证词中，对于辩护律师提出 的白皮书用途提出了反对意见，法庭裁定他们不能以其真实性来引入白皮书。他们可以使用白皮 书向 Robert先生和布朗先生提出非传闻性问题，但不能用它来向陪审团断言某些内容是真实的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 155 / 217页 我和舒里克律师谈过，我们预计他的问题会超出使用文件的范围，因为他主要是阅读文件，而不 是提问，我们认为这违反了法庭上周的裁决。我们认为反复阅读文件超出了法庭设定的界限。 法官说：那么你是要求一个限制性指示吗？ 霍顿律师说：是的。 舒里克律师说：我们提出这是非传闻性用途。我们只是提供它作为事实，就是它被提到 了。这直接与重要性相关，因为我们会辩称这是系统实际运作方式的披露。政府会辩称称这些代 币为加密货币是误导，我们有权将其引入。 同样，这也是为了非传闻目的，以表明确实说过这样的话，并进行了披露。 法官说：你是说文件没有将资产描述为加密货币吗？ 舒里克律师说：那是事实。但不仅仅是这个，法官大人，是的。 法官说：但你不是为了其真实性而引入的吗？ 舒里克律师说：我认为我们不需要为了其真实性而引入。那些关于预期事件的声明，未 来事件的声明也只是为了显示它们被披露了。 施洛夫律师说：或者说出来了。 舒里克律师说：这也相关，因为他们显然会辩称郭先生通过某些其他人试图误导人们说 这是加密货币而实际上不是，所以我们有权将其引入以证明没有欺骗意图。 霍顿律师说：没有一个问题是问，布朗先生，这些话实际上说过吗？布朗先生，这些事 情对你的影响是什么，非传闻性用途。这份文件作为证据已经引入，上周也引入了，很多事情在 审判中发生了，带有限制性指示。我们认为考虑到花了大量时间在相同文件上的类似证人，提醒 陪审团这是文件应该被如何看待是合适的。 法官说：这是我要做的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，为了效率起见，我将快速浏览后续白皮书，希望非常快速， 但还有三份，我会尽量快速处理。 法官说：快速。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 156 / 217页 （回到公开法庭上；陪审团在场） 法官说：陪审员们，我想让你们明白，这份文件不是为了其真实性而引入的。它只是为 了显示它的存在以及这些声明被说出来了。 由舒里克律师： 问：我忘了我们到哪里了。我想我们在第二阶段描述喜马拉雅支付推出。 我的问题是，布朗先生，我是否准确地读了那段内容？ 答：是的。 问：你是这份文件的部分作者，对吗？ 答：部分是。 问：我们能否移到页面 9901。请注意这一页的最后一段开头的“此外”。 它写着，此外，随着喜马拉雅支付应用程序的推出，会员将能够使用喜美元信用向可以通过喜马 拉雅支付应用程序接受商品和服务付款的商户支付，并将喜美元信用从他们的喜马拉雅支付账户 转移到其他会员的喜马拉雅支付账户。当计划的基础设施升级到混合以太坊和 Quorum区块链平 台完成后，我们相信喜马拉雅支付将提供显著的优势并代表一个高度可扩展的解决方案。 我读得对吗？ 答：对的。 问：我们来看页面 9903。 顶部第一段写着：在第三阶段推出开始后，会员将能够请求将其喜马拉雅交易所账户中的信用兑 换为相应的加密资产，如果得到喜马拉雅交易所的批准，这些资产将被转移到会员的外部钱包地 址。 我读得对吗？ 答：对的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 157 / 217页 问：作为 2021年 4月喜美元白皮书的共同作者，你是否认为那些声明在当时是真实的？里面有 什么不正确的吗？ 答：没有任何错误。 法官说：这里有两个问题。第一个问题是，你是否认为那个声明在当时是真实的，他需 要回答两个问题。 舒里克律师说：我相信他回答了第二个问题，法官大人。 法官说：我不认为他回答了两个问题，我希望他回答两个问题。 舒里克律师说：我抢跑了。 问：问题是，你是否认为我们刚刚读的内容在当时是真实的？ 答：是的。 问：里面没有任何错误，对吗？ 答：没有错误。 问：好的，谢谢。现在，我们能不能调出标记为 GXAS-13 的文件。请只显示给证人、法庭和双 方。 布朗先生，你认得这份文件吗？ 答：认得。 问：这是 2021年 4月的喜马拉雅币喜币白皮书的副本吗？ 答：看起来是的，是的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们根据法庭先前的指示将这份文件作为证据提交。 法官说：有任何反对意见吗？ 霍顿律师说：没有反对，只要有类似的指示说明文件的性质。 法官说：你有多少份类似的文件？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 158 / 217页 舒里克律师说：包括这份在内还有三份。 法官说：所以我刚刚给你的指示是这些文件不是为了它们的真实性而引入的。 这些文件只是为了证明它们的存在。我们就这样。适用于总共四份文件。 舒里克律师说：我们现在是第二份。现在我们可以向陪审团展示吗，法官大人。 法官说：继续。它被接纳了。 （政府证物 AS-13作为证据被接受） 舒里克律师说： 问：布朗先生，你也参与了这份文件的共同编写，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我们能看一下第七页吗。请注意第二段开头的“参与”。它写着，只有某些喜马拉雅交易所的 会员才能参与喜马拉雅币的发行，喜马拉雅交易所是我们创建新数字金融系统的核心。喜马拉雅 交易所的运营及相关应用和基础设施将通过使用“信用”来促进。系统内的信用将对应于特定类型 的加密资产。 我读得对吗？ 答：对的。 问：现在，如果我们下到同一页倒数第二段开头的“喜马拉雅生态系统”。 它写着，喜马拉雅生态系统正在通过与预期将提供产品和服务的企业合作来开发。 创建和发展喜马拉雅生态系统旨在支持喜币和喜币信用的商业价值主张，鼓励采用和使用。 我读得对吗？ 答：对的。 问：我们来看第九页。你可以看到这里的图表与我们刚刚看过的前一份文件中的图表非常相似， 对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 159 / 217页 答：对的。 问：如果我们同意这一点，我们可以避免大家再读一遍。如果你看第十一页，注意最后一段的最 后一句开头的“当计划的基础设施升级到混合以太坊和 Quorum区块链平台完成后，我们相信喜马 拉雅支付应用将提供显著的优势并代表一个高度可扩展的解决方案。”这是同一个 2021年 4月的 喜美元白皮书吗？ 答：看起来类似。 问：同样的问题，布朗先生，当你帮助共同编写这份文件时，你相信这份文件中的所有陈述都是 准确的，对吗？ 答：我不确定那是否正确，不。 问：这份文件与之前你看的文件有什么不同？ 答：所���问题是，这份文件与我们刚刚看的文件是一样的吗？ 问：不。问题是，当你共同编写这份文件时，你是否认为这份文件中的陈述是准确的？ 答：所有这些措辞都不是我写的。 问：我的问题不同。当你共同编写这份文件时，你是否认为这份文件中的陈述是准确的？ 霍顿律师说：反对，歪曲了他的证词。 舒里克律师说：我不确定我是否歪曲了他的证词。 霍顿律师说：关于共同编写的陈述。 法官说：你说他在共同编写时，他说没有，所以问题需要限定为，当时，你是否认为这 份文件中的陈述是真实的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，恕我直言，我认为他确实作证说他共同编写了这份文件。 法官说：但这一部分他说不正确，所以问题需要限定为，当时，你是否认为这份文件中 的陈述是真实的。 舒里克律师说：他说了一些措辞。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 160 / 217页 法官说：你写了我们现在看的这句话的部分吗？ 证人说：没有。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们可以稍作讨论。 法官说：好的。 （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 舒里克律师说：法官大人，坦白说，我是试图更有效率地找到一种方式让证人看到文件 并询问某些陈述是否在当时是准确的。如果我不能这样做，我可能不得不慢慢来，这显然对大家 来说都不是我所希望的。 芬克律师说：这是威胁吗？ 舒里克律师说：不，我只是想坦白。我可以快速浏览我想要突出的部分。我不需要他确 认所有内容。我只需要他确认某些问题。 法官说：刚有个问题，他是否认为那个部分的陈述在当时是真实的。 舒里克律师说：我认为我问过他，可能我错了，我认为我问过他关于整个文件的问题。 我认为这是我们遇到的问题——他会说，他对整个文件不负责任，所以我需要逐个部分来问。我 愿意接受建议。我不确定—— 法官说：你用了“整个文件”这个词吗？ 舒里克律师说：我说这份文件中的内容，你是否认为这份文件中的内容是准确的。你认 为这份文件是你共同编写的吗—— 法官说：他说是吗？ 舒里克律师说：他说他不对部分内容负责。 霍顿律师说：这是事实。确实如此。他说他没有写显示给他的某些部分。 舒里克律师说：小心点。他没有说显示给他的部分。我问他关于整个文件的问题。 霍顿律师说：我认为你给他看了一个摘录，他说我没有。我没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 161 / 217页 舒里克律师说：我们可以让记录读回。 （记录被读回） 法官说：回到记录上。他否认了至少部分内容，并且不适当以其他方式来描述。 舒里克律师说：我可以逐部分来问他，逐句来问，这实际上是我想做的。再次强调，法 官大人，我是为了节省时间。 芬克律师说：我认为即将出现的问题是他没有编写整份文件。如果他想问，你是否认为 这份文件中的所有内容都是准确的，我认为他可以问那个问题。我不知道。布朗先生需要查看 它。我们不能为了效率，决定证人应该只是接受辩护方想让他接受的内容。我认为这不合适。 舒里克律师说：没有人暗示这个。我是说我不情愿地回去逐部分来做，因为我认为逐部 分结果会不同。他说他没有编写整份文件。 法官说：我不知道还有什么其他方法。 （回到公开法庭上；陪审团在场） 舒里克律师说： 问：我们能否回到第九页。实际上，对不起。我们看第十页。 布朗先生，如果我可以让你关注第三段，从顶部数下来开头的“信用”。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：它写着，信用只能在喜马拉雅交易所内的喜马拉雅生态系统内使用，代表在喜马拉雅交易所 进行交易的权利，并不具备要求兑换成法定货币或加密资产的权利。会员可以向喜马拉雅交易所 请求将其账户上的信用兑换为相应的加密资产，并将其转移到外部钱包地址。 我读得准确吗？ 答：我相信你读得准确。 问：现在我们看第七页，第二段。我们之前读过这个。参与喜马拉雅币发行的机会将仅对某些喜 马拉雅交易所的会员开放，喜马拉雅交易所是我们创建新数字金融系统的核心。喜马拉雅交易所
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 162 / 217页 的运营及相关应用和基础设施将通过使用信用来促进。系统内的信用将对应于特定类型的加密资 产。 问：我读得正确吗？ 答：是的。 问：在 2021年 4月写这份文件时，你是否认为这是对信用系统运作的准确描述？ 答：是的。 问：我们能不能在同一份文件中下到倒数第二段，开头的“喜马拉雅生态系统”。这里写着，喜马 拉雅生态系统正在通过与预期将提供产品和服务的企业合作来开发。创建和发展喜马拉雅生态系 统旨在支持喜币和喜币信用的商业价值主张，激励采用和使用。 我读得正确吗？ 答：是的，正确。 问：理解这是对未来意图的陈述，在 2021年 4月作出这一陈述时，你是否认为—— 霍顿律师说：法官大人，反对，这涉及法律结论的证词。 舒里克律师说：我可以逐个问。 霍顿律师说：问题不在于证词的大小，而在于它是证词。 法官说：不要问他法律结论。他不是律师。 霍顿律师说：反对在于律师陈述法律结论并对其进行证词而不是提问。 法官说：舒里克律师，不要陈述法律结论。 舒里克律师说： 问：问题是，你如何理解这里所说的生态系统正在开发？ 答：我理解为生态系统正在建设中。 问：对，它在进行中，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 163 / 217页 答：根据那段话，是的。 问：就像我们在午休前谈到的，它实际上在工作中，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以这是对 2021年 4月当时正在进行的工作的准确陈述，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在我们请看政府证物 AS-12。 布朗先生，你认得这份文件吗？ 答：认得。 问：这是什么？ 答：这是喜马拉雅币的白皮书。 问：这份文上的日期是什么？ 答：那是 2022年 1月。 问：你是这份白皮书的共同作者吗？ 答：我会说在这个时候我基本上把笔交给了律师们。 问：那么你是否以任何方式参与了起草这份文件？ 霍顿律师说：问过并答复了。 舒里克律师说：这是不同的问题。 法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 答：我需要看完整份文件才能评论。 问：当然。我们可以简单浏览一下。如果我关注某一页会有帮助吗？ 答：如果有关于 Quorum和以太坊生态系统的任何页面，那将是我唯一写的部分。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 164 / 217页 问：如果你不介意的话，我们看看第八页。就在这页的中间，句子开头的“喜马拉雅交易所旨 在”。 它写着，喜马拉雅交易所旨在为平台上的信用交易和其他加密资产提供高水平的流动性。你看到 了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：这份文件在 2022年 1月仍然描述了交易所的系统是基于信用的，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：法官大人，我认为这份文件没有作为证据提交。我认为还没有提出。 法官说：所以需要先建立基础。 问：你认得这份文件吗？ 霍顿律师说：澄清一下，我们没有反对，只要有类似的指示说明文件的性质。 法官说：你提出要接纳它了吗？ 舒里克律师说：是的，法官大人。 法官说：那它被接纳为证据。 （政府证物 AS-12作为证据被接受） 法官说：对此项目有任何反对吗？ 霍顿律师说：没有反对，要求有类似的限制性指示。 法官说：你可以继续。 舒里克律师说：如果还没有向陪审团展示，我们可以向陪审团展示吗。 问：我的问题是，在 2022 年 1 月这个时间点上，白皮书仍将交易所运行的系统描述为信用系 统，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：希望最后一个，如果我们看一下，仍然是法庭、证人和双方的政府证物 AS-18。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 165 / 217页 布朗先生，你认得这份文件吗？ 答：认得。 问：你认得这是 2022年 1月的喜马拉雅美元喜美元的白皮书吗？ 答：认得。 舒里克律师说：我们将这份文件 AS-18 作为证据提交。 霍顿律师说：没有反对。 法官说：它被接纳为证据。 霍顿律师说：对不起。没有反对，但有相同的限制。 法官说：明白了。 （政府证物 AS-18 作为证据被接受） 舒里克律师说： 问：如果我们快速看一下第八页，从顶部数第三段开头，喜马拉雅交易所的会员将能够通过喜马 拉雅交易所购买喜美元信用积分来参与喜马拉雅美元的发行。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：在 2022年 1月当时，这份文件被放在——收回。 你早些时候作证说白皮书会被放在喜马拉雅交易所的网站上，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这适用于我们刚才看的所有白皮书，对吗？ 答：我不确定这一点。 问：但通常的做法是将最终的白皮书放在喜马拉雅交易所的网站上，对吗？ 答：那是通常的做法。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 166 / 217页 问：你没有理由认为这些没有按照惯例发布到网站上，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，问过并答复了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你会考虑将某些内容发布到——收回。 是否可以说在 2022年 1月我们刚刚审核的白皮书作为证据显示，喜马拉雅交易所的系统仍然是 基于信用的？ 答：可以这么说，律师。 问：如果我们看看第十一页的最后一段，只放大最后一段。 布朗先生，我相信你之前作证说在这个时候你在起草白皮书中的角色主要是描述 Quorum，对 吗？这样说合理吗？ 答：是的，可以这么说。 问：所以我要读这段话。它写着，此外，随着喜马拉雅支付应用程序的推出，会员将能够使用喜 美元信用向接受商品和服务支付的商户支付，或将喜美元信用从他们的喜马拉雅支付账户转移到 其他会员的喜马拉雅支付账户。当计划的基础设施升级到混合以太坊和 Quorum区块链平台完成 后，我们相信喜马拉雅支付应用将提供显著的优势并代表一个高度可扩展的解决方案。 我读得对吗？ 答：你读得对。 问：你是否认为这部分文件是你作为作者贡献的一部分？ 答：不，那不是真的。 问：是否有其他与你贡献相关的 Quorum部分？ 答：我相信在之前的白皮书中有一个专门关于 Quorum的部分。 问：你在研究和 Quorum有关的部分，对吗？ 答：是的，我在研究白皮书中关于 Quorum的部分。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 167 / 217页 问：交易所正在研究 Quorum，对吧？ 答：是的。 问：是否可以说我们刚刚在这份文件第十一页底部读的那段话是对当时交易所发生情况的准确描 述？ 答：这是合理的，是的。 问：谢谢。我相信你之前作证说 G币和喜币之间没有区别。你还记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：你曾为 G币编写过白皮书吗？ 答：我可能有贡献过，是的。 问：有最终定稿过吗？ 答：据我所知或记忆中没有。 问：G币曾经存在过吗？ 答：没有。 问：G币曾经超越过概念阶段吗？ 答：是的，它是喜币的概念。 问：请回答我的问题。G币曾经超越过概念阶段吗？ 霍顿律师说：问过并答复了。 法官说：反对有效。 舒里克律师说：申请删除，法官大人。 法官说：已经问过并答复了。 舒里克律师说：申请删除非响应性的回答。之前的回答是非响应性的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 168 / 217页 霍顿律师说：反对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：当你说 G币和喜币之间没有区别时，你的意思是 G币的概念后来变成了喜币吗？ 答：我不确定这是否完全正确。 问：所以 G币从未创建过，对吗？ 答：没有，它从未创建过。 问：对吗？喜币是你工作的内容，对吗？ 答：能再说一遍吗？ 问：喜币是你工作的内容，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：不是 G币，只是为了区分两者，对吗？ 答：在最初的一个月左右，我们把喜币称为 G币。 问：所以它被重新命名了？ 答：对的。 问：好吧。合理。G币从未成为现实，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：问过并答复了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你作证说，当你加入交易所时，你的工作并不是你所期望的，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：但是你理解交易所的长期目标与当初你期望的是什么是一致的，���吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，我们已经讨论过这个问题，法官大人。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 169 / 217页 舒里克律师说：这是关于他的期望。 法官说：你在问长期目标是否与他的期望一致？ 舒里克律师说：正确，是交易所要建设的目标。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：我没有预料到它会建立一个信用系统。 问：正如我们讨论过的，长期来看，它不会是一个信用系统，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 舒里克律师说：我必须能够问这个问题。 法官说：你可以回答这个问题。 答：对的。 问：所以你没有预料到它会是一个信用系统，但你也理解到，最终它会转变为一个真正的加密系 统，而不是基于信用的，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：所以这与你的期望是一致的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：因此问题是，喜马拉雅交易所的长期计划与当初你加入时的期望是一致的，对吗？只是短期 计划不一致，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：这里有很多问题。 问：喜马拉雅交易所的长期计划与当初你加入时的期望是一致的，是这样吗？ 霍顿律师说：问过并答复了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 170 / 217页 法官说：反对有效。 问：现在，你感到沮丧的是，喜马拉雅交易所的发展比你预期的要慢，对吗？这样说合理吗？ 答：可以这么说。 问：我相信你在直接询问中作证说，你没有被允许访问交易所的一些交易数据，对吗？ 答：对的，我没有被允许访问任何数据。 问：你能回答我的问题吗？ 答：是的。 问：交易数据？ 答：交易数据。 问：你从未向余建明要求过访问那些交易数据，对吗，正如你在直接询问中所作证的？ 答：对的。 问：余先生并没有真正管理那些数据，对吗？ 答：能再说一遍吗？ 问：当然。我相信你在直接询问中作证说，余先生并没有真正管理那些交易数据。他并不是那些 数据的所有者，对吗？ 答：那是合理的，那是 CISO。 问：好的 答：Azeem。 问：他是信息和安全的负责人？ 答：是的。 问：他在你看来有点过于注重安全，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 171 / 217页 答：是的。 问：你不认为余先生在交易数据方面对你隐瞒了什么，对吗，因为 Azeem过于注重安全？ 答：我觉得奇怪的是我不能看到底在发生什么。 问：你曾经听到余先生说，布朗先生，你不能看吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，涉及传闻。 问：据你了解，余先生曾经告诉 Azeem不要让你看数据吗？ 法官说：你可以回答。 答：能再说一遍吗？ 问：据你了解，余先生曾经告诉 Azeem不要让你看数据吗？ 他从未告诉 Azeem不要让你看数据，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，有两个问题。 法官说：请只问主要问题。 问：据你所知，余先生从未告诉 Azeem不要让你看数据，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你之前作证说你被提升为 CEO，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这是大约在 2021年春季？ 答：是的。 问：这是在一个利益相关者会议上？ 答：是的。 问：交易所的所有部门负责人都在那里吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 172 / 217页 答：是的。 问：我们之前谈到的那些高级团队成员都在，对吗？ 答：是的，正确。 问：你觉得高级团队中的一些人想要那个 CEO职位，对吗？ 答：是的，那是正确的。 问：你觉得他们可能在缠着余先生想要那个 CEO职位，对吗？ 答：我不确定“缠着”是否是正确的词。他们可能过于热情。 问：合理。之前并没有 CEO职位，对吗，只是余先生在有效地掌控？ 答：那是正确的，律师。 问：你认为你成为 CEO 是因为你很熟悉区块链领域，对吗？ 答：不，不是。 问：你记得告诉政府你认为你成为 CEO 的原因之一是因为你很熟悉区块链领域？ 答：不。我记得我说过余先生对我在美国所做的一些事情印象深刻，那是原因之一。 问：你还理解到，余先生提拔你为 CEO 的原因之一是因为你愿意在必要时搬迁，对吗？ 答：可以这么说。 问：在某些限度内。我们明白有些地方是不可接受的。 答：合理。 问：有真实的原因让你成为 CEO，对吗？那是两个原因，对吗？ 答：那是两个。 问：你作证说你不认为自己适合做CEO，对吗？ 答：那是真的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 173 / 217页 问：现在你有自己的公司，对吗？ 答：是的，咨询公司。 问：你是那家公司的 CEO？ 答：那是一人公司，所以我不确定。很多人喜欢说自己是一人公司的 CEO。我不喜欢这样夸口。 问：没有其他人负责？ 答：没有人来管理任何事情。 问：在你在喜马拉雅交易所期间，整个期间，你是否真的与郭先生有任何实质性的互动？ 答：那是真的。 问：唯一一次与你互动是他在直播中向你敬酒，对吗？ 答：那是真的。 问：除了那次，你从未与郭先生交谈过，对吗？ 答：我不记得发生过。 问：他从未给你任何管理指示，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：现在，喜币和喜美元的智能合约有一段时间是存在的吗？ 答：是的，有。 问：那些合约被发布到区块链上，对吗？ 答：是的，他们会被发布。 问：因为它们被发布到区块链上，所以可以公开查看，对吗？ 答：能再说一遍吗？ 问：因为它们被发布到区块链上，所以可以公开查看，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 174 / 217页 答：我不确定那是否准确。我相信智能合约工作在当时还在测试中。 问：我没有给你具体时间限制。我的问题是—— 答：在我任职期间的任何时间。 问：你熟悉 Etherscan吗？ 答：熟悉。 问：你可以用以太扫描检查智能合约是否在区块链上吗？ 答：可以。 问：你曾经用以太扫描检查喜币或喜美元的智能合约是否在区块链上吗？ 答：没有。 问：现在，喜马拉雅雇佣了软件代码专家来审核喜币和喜美元的智能合约，对吗？ 答：是的，如果你称 Certek为专家的话。 问：Certek不是软件安全的公认专家吗？ 答：不再是。 问：在当时呢？ 答：在当时也有疑虑，因为 FTX的崩溃。 问：事实上，喜马拉雅雇佣了 Certek来审核喜币和喜美元的智能合约吗？ 答：他们雇佣了 Certek。 问：事实上，Certek对喜币和喜美元的智能合约提出了修改建议，对吗？ 答：我相信是的，但我没有参与。 问：你了解喜币和喜美元的智能合约是可升级的吗？ 答：我没有这方面的知识，但通过Solidity进行升级的可能性是存在的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 175 / 217页 问：对，本质上来说—— 答：这是固有的。 问：它们是固有的可升级吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在，我只想简短地谈一下交易所的 KYC流程。 KYC代表什么？ 答：了解你的客户。 问：在你看来，交易所客户的注册过程非常耗时，对吗？ 答：非常繁琐。 问：非常繁琐。我认为客户要填写大约 16 个问题才能注册，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你记得告诉政府你认为大多数人填写超过四个字段就会遇到困难吗？ 答：是的，这在行业中是共识，超过四个字段后，注册人数开始下降。 问：即使有人成功填写了所有字段，他们仍然需要通过 Bitgo的注册流程，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：法官大人，我们反对超出直接询问范围的问题，涉及KYC和注册过程。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我愿意—— 法官说：我不记得有关于客户注册的内容，所以这是超出范围的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，如果需要，我愿意以自己的证人身份传唤他。这涉及到交易 所的一般运作，我认为根据布朗先生的直接证词，这是完全合适的。 法官说：好的。 舒里克律师说：谢谢。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 176 / 217页 舒里克律师说： 问：所以问题是，即使有人填写了所有字段，所有 16 个字段，他们仍然需要通过 Bitgo的注册流 程，对吗？ 答：我不记得 Bitgo是否是那 16 个字段的一部分，但 Bitgo确实参与了这个过程，是的。 问：好的。所以无论它们是否是那 16 个字段的一部分还是在 16 个字段之后，他们都参与了这个 过程。 答：对的。 问：你记得 Bitgo的注册流程要求客户拍照吗？ 答：记得。 问：好的。结果是很多人在拍摄外国身份证时遇到了困难，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：外国身份证是指非美国身份证，对吗？ 答：那是准确的。 问：这让技术陷入困境，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。因为技术在处理中文字符时特别不擅长，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。还有因为软件设计用于像名-姓的格式，而在中国，至少，这通常是相反的。 答：完全正确。 问： 借用你的说法，由于注册程序非常繁琐，客户有时需要花费一个月甚至更长时间才能完成文 书工作，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 177 / 217页 问：你认为这个过程应该更短，大约 24 到 48 小时，对吗？ 答：20 分钟。 问：合理。甚至更短。 你担心人们对此感到沮丧，对吗？ 答：显而易见。 问：好的。关于这个问题有很多拨打 24/7普通话-英语热线的电话，对吗？ 答：热线被打爆了。 问：好的。所有这些检查的原因之一是因为交易所限制了按地理位置的用户注册，对吗？ 答：能再说一遍吗？ 问：好的。所有这些流程的原因之一是因为交易所限制了某些地理位置的用户注册。 答：是的，那是真的。 问：美国是其中一个被限制的地理位置，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：加拿大也是，对吗？ 答：也是，是的。 问：好的。你记得告诉政府你认为交易所在这些合规程序上的花费超过了除 IT以外的任何东西 吗？ 答：我不记得说过这个。 问：好的。也许我们可以快速刷新你的记忆。实际上，收回。你记得在与政府的会议上告诉他们 你认为交易所的人过于遵守合规吗？ 答：记得。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 178 / 217页 问：好的。你的看法是合规过多，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：太过了。 答：是的。 问：你记得告诉政府你认为交易所本可以接受更多客户吗？ 答：我认为那是真的。 问：好的。现在让我们简要谈谈营销。 你的看法是，交易所在宣传其服务和产品方面过于保守，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你觉得是律师在做营销决策，对吗？ 答：我确实这样认为。 霍顿律师说：反对。 问：对。他们本可以做更多的营销，但没有，对吗？ 答：他们本可以做一些营销，但没有。 问：对。你觉得他们几乎没有做任何营销。 答：是的。 问：好的。交易所特别小心，不让——收回。对不起。 在你周三的会议上，我相信是合规会议，讨论了客户注册，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：在这些会议上，合规人员会评估注册特定客户的风险，对吗？ 答：我不确定那是否准确。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 179 / 217页 问：好的。那么，委员会在评估客户风险方面做了什么？ 答：有一个叫做监管映射的过程。 问：嗯哼。 答：那是我们做的事情。 问：好的。你会给进行监管映射的客户分配一个风险评分吗？ 答：是的，是的。 问：在你看来，这个过程是监控谁在买卖的好方法吗？ 答：能再说一遍吗？ 问：在你看来，这个风险评分和监管映射过程是让交易所追踪谁在买卖的好方法吗？ 答：不，不。我不明白其中的关联。 问：好吧，如果只有批准的——收回。只有批准的客户可以在交易所买卖，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。所以为了进入交易所，这个监管映射过程是为了让只有可信的客户进入交易所，对 吗？ 答：是的，如果你指的是风险评分，是的���有一定的——是的。 问：是的。再说一次，这也是你认为有点过于严格的部分，对吗？ 答：是的，它有缺陷。 问：好的。你记得在 2022年夏季和秋季，交易所的新注册开始下降吗？ 答：记得。 问：好的。在你看来，这是部分由于缺乏任何营销，对吗？ 答：那是合理的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 180 / 217页 问：还有注册过程中的问题，对吗？ 答：到那时注册问题已经解决了。 问：但是过多的合规，对吗？ 答：不。那也已经减少到我可以接受的程度了。 问：好的。所以在你看来，真正导致下降的原因是交易所没有进行任何营销，对吗？ 答：不，这也不完全正确。 问：部分原因？ 答：是的。 问：好的。另一个原因是加密市场在经历收缩，对吗？ 答：那是其中的小部分原因，是的。 问：好的。你在直接询问中作证了 2021年 11月喜币的发布，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在发布中的角色，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：那是我们刚才看过的视频，对吗？ 答：对，对。 问：你作证说你不喜欢公开演讲，对吗？ 答：很害怕。 问：对的。你今天表现得很好。 但是你同意我们都有一些工作中不喜欢的方面；这样说合理吗？ 答：不。我认为有少数人热爱他们的工作。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 181 / 217页 问：好的。大多数人都有一些不喜欢的工作方面，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，与相关性无关，法官大人。 法官说：反对成立。 问：你记得告诉政府你对喜币的发布耗时过长感到很不满意吗？ 答：我不确定我是否用过“很不满意”这个词，但如果用了，那是对的。 问：好的。你并不特别满意这个耗时，对吗？ 答：不。我认为我们本可以更快地推出市场。 问：好的。实际上，余先生也很不满意，对吗？ 答：哦，是的。 问：对，关于进度，对吗？ 答：哦，他非常不满。 问：好的。我明白了。 你理解余先生的重点是让交易所基于信用系统运行，然后继续开发它，对吗？ 答：这是合理的说法。 问：对不起？ 答：这是合理的说法。 问：这是合理的说法，对吗？好的。你们在继续开发它，特别是在 Quorum私有区块链上，对 吗？ 答：是的。 舒里克律师说：好的。现在如果我们能调出 GX 。 我们不需要播放视频；只要静止画面就好。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 182 / 217页 这是在直接询问时被提到的。 问：在我们等待的时候，我记得你在直接询问时作证说你认为交易所还没有准备好发布，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。你告诉过余先生你建议不要发布吗？ 答：我没有。 问：好的。实际上，有时候企业在刚发布的头几周或几个月内会遇到困难，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 法官说：反对成立。 问：在你的经验中，企业，特别是初创公司，通常在刚发布的头几周或几个月内会遇到困难，对 吗？ 霍顿律师说：同样的反对。 法官说：反对成立。 问：你记得—— 舒里克律师说：我们只留下静止画面。对不起。只要静止画面。 问：你记得作证说你认为你在这个视频中做了虚假陈述，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。因为你说喜马拉雅交易所在区块链上进行交易，你认为这是误导，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你作证说你这样说是因为你不想干扰喜币的发布，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你作证说你只是遵循公司的路线，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 183 / 217页 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。那么，营销部门没有告诉你说区块链会用于交易，对吗？ 答：没有人告诉我——你能再说一遍吗。 问：对。没有人——我相信你作证说你在这个视频之前得到了营销部门的一些指导？ 答：是的。 问：好的。我的问题是：没有人告诉你说区块链会用于交易，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：对。实际上，我们刚才看过的所有白皮书都说这是一个信用系统，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：对。所以有互联网访问权限的人可以发现这一点，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，要求推测。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：你能再说一遍吗。 问：当然。如果你有互联网访问权限和那些白皮书，你会知道交易所使用的是信用系统，而不是 区块链，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，关于他人会知道什么的问题。 法官说：反对成立。 问：是否事实是白皮书披露了交易所运行的是一个信用系统，正如我们之前讨论的那样？ 霍顿律师说：法官大人，这个问题中已经讨论过了。我们已经谈过了。 法官说：你可以问他文件是否说了这些内容；你可以问他是否相信那些话是真的。 问：你之前作证说我们看过的白皮书包含关于交易所使用信用系统的准确陈述，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 184 / 217页 霍顿律师说：反对，重复性，法官大人。 法官说：反对成立。你是在说白皮书的部分内容吗？ 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我指的是之前专注的喜美元信用系统的部分。只是关于喜美 元信用系统的问题。 法官说：那么你需要这样框定问题。 舒里克律师说：好的。 问：我们之前审核的白皮书准确披露了交易所使用喜美元信用系统，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对，歪曲了他的证词。 法官说：那么—— 舒里克律师说：我没有歪曲他的证词。我只是问他是否准确披露了—— 法官说：你在问法律结论。你可以问他文件是否说了这些内容；你可以问他是否相信那 些内容是真的。 舒里克律师说：好的。 由辩方舒里克律师继续询问： 问：白皮书是否说明了交易所使用的是一个信用系统？ 答：说明了。 问：好的。为了明确，没有人告诉你在发布视频中不能说交易所使用的是信用系统，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：问过并答复了。 法官说：反对成立。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我相信我问的是另一个问题。 法官说：好的。你可以回答。请继续。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 185 / 217页 答：你能再说一遍吗？ 舒里克律师说：可以请法庭书记员再读一遍吗？ 法官说：请。 舒里克律师说：谢谢 （记录读取） 答：那是真的。 问：对。所以你说的那些话不是由交易所的其他人指示你说的，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：好的。我们之前谈到过，美国的用户被禁止使用交易所，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：他们实际上被禁止使用交易所，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你对此不太满意，对吗？ 答：那是真的。这是合理的说法。 问：你想参与其中，再次借用你的话，享受你劳动的果实，通过购买一些喜币，对吗？ 答：不。我觉得一个典型的初创公司，创始人会获得喜币而不是购买它。 问：好的。忘记“购买”这个词。你期望因为你在交易所的工作而获得一些代币，对吗？ 答：是的，这是合理的说法。 问：对。你对没有获得代币感到沮丧，对吗？ 答：是的，这也是合理的说法。 问：好的。你感到沮丧是因为其他人得到了，而你没有，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 186 / 217页 答：准确。 问：好的。实际上，你试图让你的岳父注册以便能够购买一些代币，对吗？ 答：是的，是的，我们确实尝试过。 问：好的。因为你的岳父有一个委内瑞拉的身份证，对吗？ 答：他有一个——他有一个过期的委内瑞拉身份证。这就是为什么他无法购买。 问：当然。那就是发生的事情，对吗？所以你试图让他用过期的身份证在交易所注册，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：实际上，你遇到了一些问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你遇到问题是因为我们之前谈到的 KYC过程，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：然后你实际上让他打了我们谈到的 24/7热线，对吗？ 答：客户服务热线。 问：客户服务热线。谢谢。你让他打客户服务热线？ 答：是的。 问：并尝试解决这些问题以便他能注册购买喜币，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：最终结果是，正如你所说，身份证过期了。 答：对的。 问：他不能购买，对吗？ 答：对的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 187 / 217页 问：好的。所以你想购买它们，对吗？ 答：不，我不想购买它们。 问：合理。你希望获得它们，对吗？ 答：你能再说一遍吗？ 问：你之前作证说你期望获得喜币的赠与，对吗？ 答：赠与？ 问：是的，你被赠与喜币。 答：哦，对，对。 问：对。所以你期望获得喜币的赠与，当这不成功时，你尝试通过你岳父购买喜币。 答：不，不是这样的。是我岳父想购买喜币。 问：哦，好的。是你岳父想购买喜币。 答：是的。当时它是 20 美元。我不想参与。 问：好的。那么在你期望获得这些代币并因为没有获得而感到不满的那个时间点，你不可能认为 这些代币很差，对吗？ 答：当它们是 20 美元时，我认为它们是。 问：嗯，这很相对，对吗？你不想支付 20 美元购买它。 答：它们的价格被严重高估了。 问：当它们首次推出时，你想要它们，对吗？ 答：那是对的。 问：好的。那么它们有多差呢？不可能那么差，对吗？ 答：不，不。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 188 / 217页 问：对。不是那么差的产品，对吗？ 答：不，不是坏产品。 问：好的。现在我们谈谈—— 舒里克律师说：对不起，法官大人。我能稍微停一下吗？ 法官说：可以。 舒里克律师说：好的，谢谢。 问：布朗先生，你记得在直接询问中作证关于Hummingbot的事情吗？ 答：记得。 问：好的。我想你作证说你是从 David Fallon 那里听说 Hummingbot的，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：David Fallon是汉密尔顿的高级人员，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你作证说这个机器人在低交易量情况下使用，对吗？ 答：这是它的一个使用场景。 问：对。还有其他使用场景，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。Hummingbot 被称为自动匹配引擎，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：它是一种算法交易工具，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你对Hummingbot的所有了解都来自 Fallon先生吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 189 / 217页 答：是的。 问：好的。Hummingbot实际上只是匹配买家和卖家，对吗？那是它的作用？ 答：我不确定那是否准确描述。 问：你不确定 Hummingbot的唯一用途是否在低交易量情况下，对吗？ 答：对的，我不确定它是否只在低交易量情况下使用。 问：好的。我再问一个不同的问题。你不确定 Hummingbot的唯一用途是否在低交易量情况下， 对吗？ 答：对的。 问：对。它可能还有其他用途。 答：有可能。 问：对。所以 Hummingbot 可能被用于除了低交易量情况以外的其他用途，对吗？ 法官说：不要问他假设性问题。 问：你知道 Hummingbot是所谓的开源软件吗？ 答：知道。 问：好的。你还在直接询问中作证提到过SEC的和解协议。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：好的。你提到你在交易所的一次会议上提出了 GTV的和解协议，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：在那个时候，SEC的和解协议是公开的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你作证说当你在会议上提出这个问题时，某些人的反应，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 190 / 217页 答：对的。 问：好的。你特别作证了法律负责人对这个问题的反应，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。为了明确，你只是猜测她知道还是不知道，对吗？你不确定。 答：你能再说一遍吗？ 问：当你作证关于你对她反应的解读时，你是在猜测，对吗？ 答：是的，对的。 问：是的。你是在猜测，对吗？我的意思是，你不能知道她心里想什么。至少现在的心灵感应是 这样的，它不起作用。 霍顿律师说：反对。 法官说：驳回。 答：是的，是的，我不能读心术。 问：对。好的。你作证说你没有问余建明关于这个问题，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。你还被展示了一份标记为 GX C405 的文件。 舒里克律师说：我们能调出那份文件吗—— 问：好的。你作证说你在某个时候看过这个视频，对吗？对不起。撤回。你作证说你在某个时候 看过这篇文章，对吗？ 答：没有。 霍顿律师说：反对。是的，歪曲了证词。 法官说：维持。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 191 / 217页 问：好的。你在某个时候看过这个直播吗？ 答：我从未看过直播，不。 问：你读过一篇总结它的文章，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那么当你读到那篇文章时，你没有向余先生提出这个问题，对吗？ 答：我最近才看到这篇文章。 问：啊。所以你在那时没有看到这篇文章，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你在工作期间也没有看到这篇文章，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你是在为你的证词做准备时看到这篇文章的吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。所以你不可能在交易所向其他人提出郭先生在这篇文章中说的任何事情，对吗？ 答：不是这篇文章。 问：对。好的。现在我想简要谈谈Armanino。你认得那家公司的名字吗？ 答：认得。 问：好的。他们是谁？ 答：他们是硅谷的一家审计公司。 问：好的。你参与了雇佣他们的决定吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。他们的角色是什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 192 / 217页 答：我相信是审计代币。 问：好的。他们特别对喜美元储备进行了审计，对吗？ 答：是的。 舒里克律师说：好的。如果我们能调出 GX BR208。请调出 208A。然后进入下一页。 问：你记得在直接询问中被问到一些问题吗？ 答：记得，律师。 问：好的。以及这是你对喜币的理解——撤回。根据你的理解，这份报告仅与喜美元有关，对 吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。与喜币无关，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。这是对支持喜美元信用的现金储备的审计，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。你同意这份作为证据的文件显示，美元储备超过了流通中的喜美元信用总量；也就是 说，顶部的数字大于第二行的数字？ 答：我同意。 问：好的。你被问到这个文件是否反映了任何黄金持有量。你记得这个问题吗？ 答：记得。 问：好的。没有理由这份文件会显示任何黄金持有量，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 问：我们已经确定这是对现金储备的审计，所以问题是：没有理由黄金会在这里显示。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 193 / 217页 法官说：你准备这个文件了吗？ 舒里克律师说：没有。这是审计报告，法官大人。 法官说：这是审计报告。 舒里克律师说：是的。 法官说：你在问他审计员是否应该在文件上包含黄金？ 舒里克律师说：不。我们已经通过之前的问题确定这份报告反映的是现金储备。所以我 的问题是，他不会期望在这里看到黄金，因为这是仅关于现金的报告。 霍顿律师说：反对。这歪曲了证词。 舒里克律师说：我没有问他的证词。 霍顿律师说：舒里克先生说已经确定了一些事情。这歪曲了证词。 法官说：你可以问他他期望在审计报告中看到什么。 舒里克律师说：好的。我会继续。没关系，法官大人。 由舒里克律师： 问：你知道喜币是否有任何黄金支持吗？ 答：我不知道任何时候有黄金储备。 问：好的。你只是不知道。你没有访问这些信息的权限，对吗？ 答：如果我们有黄金，我可能会知道的，是的。 问：你之前作证说你被拒绝访问各种信息，对吗？ 答：是的，但早期确实有关于黄金的讨论—— 问：对。 答：——那时计划是黄金将被保存在第三方托管机构，并且会有一个实时的公共访问——
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 194 / 217页 问：好的。 答：——那是一个公开的访问，所以我会必然会有私人访问权限。 问：我们再谈谈黄金。 霍顿律师说：反对。对打断证人回答提出异议。 法官说：不要打断证人的回答。 舒里克律师说：对不起。我没有意识到。抱歉。 霍顿律师说：可以让证人完成回答吗。 法官说：你能读回他已经给出的答案部分，然后如果他确实被打断了可以补充。 （记录读回） 证人说：是的，是的，那是准确的。 舒里克律师说： 问：好的。我们再谈谈黄金。 你理解最初的意图是将喜币的原始价值的 10%存储为黄金储备，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。与喜美元无关，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：对。只是喜币。 答：对。 问：只是喜币在发行时的价值，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：只是 10%，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 195 / 217页 答：是的。 问：好的。你听说过Sharps Pixley吗？ 答：我不认为听说过。 问：好的。你在直接询问中也作证提到了一些扣押事件，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你被问及是否知道交易所通知其客户扣押事件的事，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道交易所挑战了扣押事件吗？ 答：我知道这一点。 问：它雇佣了律师来对扣押事件提起诉讼吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。根据你的理解，扣押事件是公开的，对吗？ 答：我不确定是否知道这是公开的。 问：你曾经花时间在 Google上查过吗？ 答：没有。 问：你曾经在法庭记录上查过吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。你在直接询问中也作证提到了一笔贷款和一艘游艇，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你被问到了一些关于这个问题的问题，对吗？ 答：对的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 196 / 217页 问：好的。余先生是喜马拉雅的最终受益所有人，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：作为喜马拉雅的最终受益所有人，如果他想要贷款，他只需要遵循正确的程序就可以了，对 吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。他按照你的理解，遵循了正确的程序，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：他提交给委员会投票，对吗？ 答：我不确定。我认为是一个委员会。我不确定是否是董事会。 问：好的。那么一个委员会，他提交给委员会投票。 答：是的。 问：委员会进行了讨论，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：然后委员会批准了，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。那么坐在这里今天，你不清楚那笔贷款到底是为了什么，对吗？ 答：我知道。我知道。我知道那笔贷款是为了什么。 问：你明白那笔贷款不是为了购买一艘游艇吗？你明白这一点吗？ 答：我不明白，不。 问：好的。你在直接询问中也作证提到了中国共产党。你记得吗？ 答：记得。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 197 / 217页 问：好的。我相信你作证说——如果我错了请纠正我——你不认为喜马拉雅交易所与反对中共有 任何关系，对吗？ 答：交易所没有。 问：好的。你记得在与你的面谈中告诉政府你理解针对中共的爆料革命是所有事情的基础吗？你 记得吗？ 答：我不记得了。 问：好的。我们看看能否刷新你的记忆。 舒里克律师说：如果我们能调出文件，第 11页。仅供证人、双方和法庭查看。 问：好的。这显示在你的屏幕上了吗，布朗先生？ 答：显示了。 问：好的。我们会将其高亮，请你自己读，不要出声。 舒里克律师说：继续，高亮，乔治。 问：好的。现在这是否刷新了你的记忆，你告诉政府整个针对中共的爆料革命运动是所有事情的 基础？ 答：是的。 问：好的。事实上，余建明会在汉密尔顿谈论反对中共的举报人运动，对吗？ 答：是的，他会。 问：对。他告诉你这些事情，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。所以你实际上理解到大约 2/3 的交易所客户是基于中国的信息，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对？那是主要市场，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 198 / 217页 答：2/3 的市场。 问：对。所以你今天早些时候的证词是不正确的，对吗？ 答：我——我——我不确定，我不确定什么—— 问：你今天早些时候作证说反对中共的运动与交易所无关，然后我们刚刚读了，你也作证说反对 中共的运动是所有事情的基础。 霍顿律师说：反对。这不是一个问题。 问：对吗？ 法官说：我还没有——哦，好的。 舒里克律师说：好了。 法官说：这是一个问题，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：法官大人，这是律师的论点。 舒里克律师说：这是两组证词，法官大人。我在问—— 法官说：你可以问问题，你可以回答。 舒里克律师说：法庭书记员能读回问题吗。 （记录读回） 答：是的，但这里有区别。喜马拉雅交易所和郭文贵在社交媒体上的所有言论。 问：好的。那么为了明确，你在这里的证词是反对中共的运动和举报人运动与交易所无关；你坚 持这个说法。 答：我坚持交易所是非政治的，对的。 问：好的。你知道什么是 DDoS攻击吗？ 答：知道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 199 / 217页 问：好的。那是什么？ 答：那是当你的网络实体的服务器受到攻击以尝试让你下线。 问：对。好的。交易所经历过DDoS攻击吗？ 答：经历过。 问：对。你可不可以数得出来，有多少次？ 答：我不确定具体数字。我不确定——具体数字。 问：好的。但这对交易所来说是个问题，对吗？ 答：这不是一个问题，因为我们有防护措施。 问：对。Azeem，安全负责人，非常关注DDoS攻击的潜在威胁，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：或者其他恶意方或恶意行为者的攻击，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你理解这与反对中共的举报人运动有关系吗，根据你在交易所的时间？ 答：有人谈到过。 问：对。有人提到这可能是交易所被攻击的原因，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。交易所是否雇佣了供应商来分析 DDoS攻击？我说的你，是指交易所。 答：是的。 问：你是否记得 2022年 6月的一次DDoS攻击？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 200 / 217页 答：我不记得。 问：好的。你在 2023年 1月离开了交易所，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：好的。你离开喜马拉雅交易所后，是否向余先生寻求投资你正在进行的新项目？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你是否向他发送了一份协议，要求他投资？ 答：是的。 问：你当时寻求的资金是多少？ 答：我不记得了。 问：是多于还是少于十万美元？ 答：我认为是多于。 问：是多于还是少于五十万美元？ 答：大概就在那个范围。 问：好的。你与他讨论过这笔潜在的投资吗？ 答：是的。 问：但是他最终没有回复你，对吗？ 答：没有回复。 问：好的。那么在你辞职前的两个月，你继续在为交易所的长期目标工作吗？ 答：我不这么认为。我当时已经有些消极怠工了。 问：所以你只是领工资，对吗？ 答：基本上是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 201 / 217页 问：好的。那么你不记得在 2022年 12月和 2023年 1月期间，你是否继续在做例如商户门户的 工作吗？ 答：我不记得商户门户了。 问：好的。那自我保管选项呢？ 答：对，自我保管选项。 问：好的。那么 HEU呢？你知道那是什么吗？ 答：请再说一遍？ 问：当然。HEU呢？ 答：HEU。HEU。哦，我认为那是喜马拉雅欧元。 问：对。这是交易所计划提供的另一个稳定币，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：对。另一个计划在交易所上进行交易的代币。 答：是的。 问：那么即使你可能停止了为交易所的长期目标工作，你理解到交易所的其他人继续在为这些长 期目标工作吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。 舒里克律师说：在他离职期间。 法官说：你可以说说你观察到的。 霍顿律师说：反对。问题是关于他离职后的事情。 法官说：我没听清。 霍顿律师说：我说问题是关于他离职后的事情，所以——
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 202 / 217页 舒里克律师说：不。问题是——我很乐意重新措辞。 由舒里克律师： 问：问题是：在你任期结束时，即使你已经消极怠工并只是领工资，如你所作证的那样，交易所 的其他人是否仍在为交易所的长期目标工作？ 答：可以这么说。 问：好的。那么，布朗先生，你在作证前曾多次与政府律师会面，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：如果你记得的话，多少次？ 答：我相信是四次；四五次。 问：如果实际上是九次——包括今天早上的，总共十次，你会感到惊讶吗？ 答：不会，感到惊讶。 问：好的。听起来差不多，对吗？ 答：听起来——听起来像更多，但—— 问：对不起？ 答：听起来像更多，但—— 问：对，好的。那么除了你与政府律师会面的次数，你的律师也与他们进行了单独的对话，对 吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。我只是提醒你小心。我不想让你告诉我你和你律师之间的任何沟通，好吗？我不想你 复述那些对话，好吗？明白吗？ 答：明白。 问：好的。可以说你的律师会向你报告他与政府的对话，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 203 / 217页 答：是的，这是合理的说法。 问：好的。那你与政府达成了一个不起诉的协议，对吗？ 答：是的。 舒里克律师说：好的。如果可以，我想向证人展示标记为 DX 60657的文件。 不向陪审团展示，只给证人看。 霍顿律师说：法官大人，我们对其接纳没有异议。 舒里克律师说：好的。我们申请其作为证据，法官大人。 法官说：接纳为证据。 （被告证物 60657 作为证据被接纳） 由舒里克律师： 问：好的。布朗先生，你认得这是你与政府达成的不予起诉协议吗？ 答：认得。 问：好的。我相信你在直接询问的开始时作证说你认为这个协议涵盖了你在郭媒体的工作。你记 得吗？ 答：记得。 问：第一段中有提到郭媒体吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。所以郭媒体不在这个协议中，对吗？你只是误会了？ 答：我误会了。 问：好的。那么这个协议涵盖了你在 GTV媒体和喜马拉雅交易所的工作，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 204 / 217页 问：好的。时间范围是 2020年 6月至 2023年 1月。 答：对的。 问：对。那么你认为你在那段时间内犯了任何罪吗？ 答：我认为我犯了。 问：你指的罪行是你在视频中做的虚假陈述吗？ 答：是的。 问：那些罪行是你自己的罪行，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：因为，正如我们之前谈到的，没有人告诉你在那些视频中该说什么；没有人从喜马拉雅交易 所告诉你在那些视频中该说什么，对吗？ 答：没有人告诉我在视频中该说什么，对。 问：对。那些话是你自己的；它们不是喜马拉雅交易所的，对吗？没有人从喜马拉雅交易所—— 撤回。 那些话是你自己的话，对吗？ 答：是的。 舒里克律师说：好的。现在我们是否可以翻到第二页。 问：你理解，我相信你在直接询问中作证说，只要你今天说实话，你就能享受这个不起诉协议的 好处，对吗？ 答：是的。 舒里克律师说：好的。我们是否可以放大倒数第二段的第一句话。 问：上面写着，“如果政府确定布朗在签署此协议后犯了任何罪行……”你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 205 / 217页 问：好的。那么谁来决定你今天是否说实话？ 答：我决定我是否说实话。 问：谁来决定这个协议是否仍然有效？ 答：政府。 问：对。如果政府认为你撒谎了，他们可以撕毁这个协议，对吗？ 答：那是真的。 问：对。那么是政府决定你今天是否说实话，对吗？ 霍顿律师说：反对。问题已问答。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：事实决定我是否说实话。 问：最后，总有一个人来判断这些事实，对吗？ 答：那是正确的。 问：判断这些事实的人是谁？就是坐在这里的这些人，对吗？ 答：不，那—— 霍顿律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：反对有效。 舒里克律师说：如果可以，我想稍作停顿，法官大人？ 法官说：可以。 舒里克律师说：好的。目前没有进一步的问题。 法官说：重新询问？ 重新询问
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 206 / 217页 由霍顿进行: 问：布朗先生，你之前作证说，当你代表交易所公开讲话时，你是在遵循公司的路线。你记得 吗？ 答：记得。 问：你从哪里得到了公司的路线？ 答：公司路线是在会议上讨论的，知道哪些是适合说的，哪些是不适合说的。 问：你在采访中公开说的内容，与公司路线一致吗？ 答：一致的。 问：谁安排了那些采访？ 答：市场部。 问：市场部向谁汇报？ 答：余建明。 问：你在交叉询问中被问到关于其他人获得喜币的问题。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：那些人在发布前还是发布后获得了喜币？ 我撤回。 问：私募是什么时候进行的？ 答：在发布之前。 问：在喜马拉雅交易所，是否有任何人在私募中获得喜币？ 答：每个人都有机会获得喜币。 问：你有参与私募吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 207 / 217页 答：没有。 问：除了你以外，交易所的其他人以什么价格获得了喜币的私募配售？ 答：10 美分。 问：那是在发布前还是发布后？ 答：发布前。 问：在那个时候，是否有任何交易所外部的人以 10 美分的价格获得了喜币？ 答：参与私募的人。 问：参与私募的人中有不在交易所工作的吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对，基础不充分。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：有。 问：那些人是谁？ 答：那些是个人投资者。 问：他们是如何获得这个机会的？ 答：是余建明批准的。 问：在你提到的那些人获得喜币后，10 美分的价格发生了什么变化？ 答：在发布后？ 问：对的。 答：是的，发布后价格猛涨。 问：从 10 美分涨到多少？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 208 / 217页 答：我在采访时，它立即涨到 1 美元，两周内涨到 20 美元，最终涨到接近 60多美元，我相信是 这样。 问：这对你提到的那些以 10 美分获得喜币的内部人士的喜币价值意味着什么？ 舒里克律师说：反对，形式问题。 法官说：反对有效。 问：布朗先生，这对那些以 10 美分获得喜币的人的喜币价值意味着什么？ 舒里克律师说：相同反对。 法官说：你在问他一个算术问题吗？ 霍顿律师说：我在问他后来价格猛涨对早期获得的币的价值意味着什么；他的理解是什 么。 我可以继续，法官大人。 由检方律师霍顿进行提问: 问：你在交叉询问中被问及喜马拉雅交易所关于信用和加密货币的声明。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：喜币信用是加密货币吗？ 答：不是。 问：为什么不是？ 答：因为它们不在区块链上。 舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。这涉及早前的边栏讨论。 法官说：反对驳回。 问：喜美元信用是加密货币吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 209 / 217页 答：不是。 问：为什么不是？ 答：它们不在区块链上。 问：在你任职期间，喜马拉雅交易所的客户何时可以在区块链上购买喜美元？ 答：从来没有。 问：在你任职期间，喜马拉雅客户何时可以在区块链上购买喜币？ 答：在我任期内从来没有。 问：你在交叉询问中被问到其他加密货币交易所的客户情况。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：喜币什么时候在其他加密货币交易所上市过？ 答：从来没有。 问：喜美元什么时候在其他加密货币交易所上市过？ 口译员说：律师，请慢一点。 霍顿律师说：好的 问：好的，布朗先生，客户什么时候可以在其他加密货币交易所购买喜美元？ 舒里克律师说：反对。是在他任职期间吗？ 法官说：你可以回答。 答：从来没有。 问：你在交叉询问中被问及白皮书的分发情况。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：长岛伟哥是否分发了白皮书？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 210 / 217页 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：反对驳回。 问：问题是：长岛伟哥是否分发了喜马拉雅交易所的白皮书？ 答：我不确定长岛伟哥是谁。 问：在英国的戴建峰是否分发了白皮书？ 答：David Fallon吗？ 问：哦，不。戴建峰，在英国的，他是否分发了白皮书？ 答：没有。 问：凤凰农场是否分发了白皮书？ 舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。假设了未证实的事实。 法官说：反对驳回。你可以回答。 答：没有。 问：吴敏然是否获得了白皮书？ 舒里克律师说：反对。基础不足。他不可能知道。 法官说：如果你知道，你可以回答。 答：我不确定那是谁，也不确定他们是否得到了。 问：香草山农场是否分发了白皮书？ 舒里克律师说：相同反对。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：据我所知没有。 问：英国农场呢，他们是否分发了白皮书？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 211 / 217页 答：据我所知没有。 舒里克律师说：相同反对。 问：秘密翻译组是否翻译了白皮书？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：如果你知道，你可以回答。 答：我不确定谁翻译了白皮书。我认为是我们的客户服务团队。 问：铁血团是否分发了白皮书？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：如果你知道，你可以回答。 答：我不知道。 问：你知道郭文贵是否将这些白皮书分发给他的追随者吗？ 答：我不知道。 霍顿律师说：我可以稍作停顿，法官大人？ 法官说：可以。 问：你在交叉询问中被问到你与王雁平的第二次对话。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：她为什么打电话给你？ 答：她打电话来催促开发团队连接郭文贵的实体生态系统。 问：王雁平为谁工作？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：反对驳回。如果你知道，你可以回答。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 212 / 217页 答：我相信是 GTV或 G集团。 问：谁控制 GTV？ 舒里克律师说：反对。 法官说：如果你知道，你可以回答。 答：是郭文贵控制的。 霍顿律师说：稍等，法官大人。 问：布朗先生，在你在喜马拉雅交易所工作的两年半时间里，它持有黄金吗？ 舒里克律师说：反对。已经问过并回答了。 法官说：反对驳回。 答：据我所知没有。 问：在你在喜马拉雅交易所工作的时间里，喜币有黄金支持吗？ 答：没有；据我所知没有。 问：你提到的实时黄金展示是否曾经发生过？ 答：从未见过。 霍顿律师说：没有进一步的问题了。 法官说：重新交叉询问？ 舒里克律师说：非常简短，法官大人。 重新交叉询问 BY MR. 舒里克: 问：霍顿律师刚才列出了一大堆人和实体，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 213 / 217页 问：对吗？你知道那些人是谁吗？ 答：我没有听说过他们，不。 问：对。你知道他们是否收到过白皮书吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：对。但是根据你的理解，白皮书是发布到互联网上的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你知道他刚才列出的那些人是否有访问互联网的权限吗？ 答：你能再说一遍吗？ 问：你知道他刚才列出的那些人是否有访问互联网的权限吗？ 答：我不知道。 舒里克律师说：好的。没有进一步的问题了。 霍顿律师说：没有进一步的问题。谢谢。 法官说：谢谢。你可以离开了。 （证人退场） 法官说：陪审员们，现在是 4点 59分。所以我们这周的工作已经完成。你们将在周一回 来，我们将恢复之前的时间表，你们将在 2点 45 分离开。所以我希望你们周一早上 9 点 30 分准 时到达法庭。 我还要提醒你们我们接下来的时间安排。下周，即 6月 24 日那周，周五我们不上庭。所以只有 四天。接下来的那周，我们只有 7 月 2 日和 3 日两天上庭。 希望你们度过一个愉快的周末。记住，你们不能在自己之间或与任何人讨论这个案子。不要允许 任何人在你们面前讨论这个案子。不要阅读、听取或观看任何涉及此案的任何来源的内容。 祝你们周末愉快。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 214 / 217页 （陪审团不在场） 法官说：你们可以坐下。在我们结束这周的工作前还有什么要处理的吗？ 芬克律师说：法官大人，我想要稍微调整一下我今天早上所说的话，根据今天下午的进 展情况。 我们预计今天能够完成另外三位证人的审讯，其中两位会很短，另一位中等长度，可能 类似于Mahwah 特别探员的情况，不算短但也不算长。今天的交叉询问时间比直接询问时间长得 多，我们希望法庭考虑在周二坐满一天，以确保政府能够在周二完成我们希望完成的工作。这样 可以加快进度。剩下的证人很多，我们认为大多数证人的证词会很短，但我们不知道交叉询问会 花多长时间。我们对今天这个证人的交叉询问时间估计显然是错误的。我记得舒里克律师在午休 时说他还剩 45 分钟，但结果并非如此。这种情况时有发生；我们理解。但为了在周二结束，我 们可能需要更多时间。 我只是想让法庭了解我们的进展情况。就这样。 法官说：我不反对询问陪审员是否能在周二待到五点。所以我们看看周一的情况。 芬克律师说：这对政府来说是合理的，法官大人。只是让您了解政府的观点，不仅仅是 关于政府什么时候结束。辩方也有他们的案子，这是他们的权利，我们试图预测他们的案子会持 续多长时间，还有被告选择作证的可能性，这也会影响到我们 7 月 12 日的预定结束日期，再加 上休庭的日子。所以这是政府的考虑，我们感谢法庭对此的包容，并祝您周末愉快。 法官说：辩方有什么要说的吗？ 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，我相信卡马拉珠先生已经传达了辩方的案子不会很长，我们 有点困惑为什么政府认为我们会超过预定时间。我们完全预计会按法庭告知陪审员的时间表进 行。我不认为我们需要更改时间表。但我认为辩方没有任何担忧，并试图向法庭保证这一点。我 们不认为案子会很长。我们之前多次提到过，现在在这里再次重申。如果情况有变化，我们会立 即通知法庭。谢谢，法官大人。 芬克律师说：法官大人，我已经与辩方律师讨论过这个案子，他们预计在 7 月 3 日结 束，没有被告作证，对吧？如果被告作证，显然情况会有所变化。但我们也有他们的证人名单， 看起来不像是四天的辩护。如果辩方已经将一些证人从名单上划掉，有些是他们告诉我们的，有 些是我们同意划掉的，作为协议谈判的一部分，但还有很多证人仍在等待传唤，如果他们已经知 道他们不会传唤这些证人，我们会要求他们今天告诉我们他们不会传唤谁。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 215 / 217页 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，如果我们有任何额外信息，我们肯定会与他们沟通。但再次 强调，辩方不预计这次审判会超过告知陪审员的时间。再次重申。这是一个漫长的一周，法官大 人，如果我们有任何更新的信息，我们很乐意传达。 法官说：好的。 施洛夫律师说：谢谢。 法官说：周一 11点 30 分，我会再次讨论这个问题。 芬克律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 法官说：周末愉快。 所有律师说：您也是。 （休庭至 2024年 6月 24 日上午 9:00）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 216 / 217页 审讯记录 审讯： 页码 加布里拉·卢西亚诺 直接询问由莫里律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3580 交叉询问由施洛夫律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3610 再次直接询问由莫里律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3630 再次交叉询问由施洛夫律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3632 杰西·布朗 直接询问由霍顿律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3633 交叉询问由舒里克律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3706 再次直接询问由霍顿律师 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3843 再次交叉询问由舒里克律师 . . . . . . . . . . . 3851 政府证物 证物编号 接受 AS-12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3792 AS-13 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3781 AS-18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3793 NJ-358 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3595 3401 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3677 3419 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3639 辩方证物
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6LBGUO1 2024-6-21庭审记录 第 217 / 217页 证物编号 接受 60657 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3840
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