Original Court Transcript(原始庭审记录)
4065
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
v. 23 Cr. 118 (AT)
MILES GUO,
Defendant. Trial
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New York, N.Y.
June 25, 2024
9:00 a.m.
Before:
HON. ANALISA TORRES,
District Judge
-and a Jury-
APPEARANCES
DAMIAN WILLIAMS
United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
BY: MICAH F. FERGENSON
RYAN B. FINKEL
JUSTIN HORTON
JULIANA N. MURRAY
Assistant United States Attorneys
SABRINA P. SHROFF
Attorney for Defendant
PRYOR CASHMAN LLP
Attorneys for Defendant
BY: SIDHARDHA KAMARAJU
MATTHEW BARKAN
ALSTON & BIRD LLP
Attorneys for Defendant
BY: E. SCOTT SCHIRICK
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ALSO PRESENT:
Isabel Loftus, Paralegal Specialist, USAO
Robert Stout, Special Agent, FBI
Jorge Salazar, Defense Paralegal
Tuo Huang, Interpreter (Mandarin)
Shi Feng, Interpreter (Mandarin)
Yu Mark Tang, Interpreter (Mandarin)
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(Trial resumed; jury not present)
THE COURT: Good morning. Please make your
appearances.
MR. FERGENSON: Micah Fergenson, Ryan Finkel, Julie
Murray and Justin Horton for the United States.
MS. SHROFF: Good morning, your Honor. On behalf of
Mr. Guo, Sabrina Shroff. Mr. Guo is standing to my left.
THE COURT: Please be seated. Is there anything that
either side would like to bring up.
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, first one minor scheduling
issue. The witness, in consultation with the defense last
night, we're reordering the witnesses. The witness who is
going to go on after the current witness has an immovable
appointment at 11:45. We think he's a very short witness. To
the extent that he can't -- he's a United States attorney
office paralegal, so he's accessible. To the extent we can't
get him finish with cross at 11:45, we'd ask that he sort of
stop and we call the next witness and then we can bring him
back either later today or tomorrow when he returns. I hope
that's not an issue for the Court.
THE COURT: No problem.
MR. FINKEL: There's a second issue, and I was
wondering if we could discuss that one at sidebar.
THE COURT: Okay. We're going to go into the robing
room because they're going to have to deal with the AV over
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here.
(Pages 4069-4072 Sealed)
(Continued on next page)
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(In the robing room)
THE COURT: Anything else?
MS. SHROFF: As I was walking to court this morning as
I normally do pass the passageway, I was on a phone call with a
pretrial services officer on an unrelated matter. I heard
somebody say hello. I turned around. It was a juror. The
juror immediately recognized that they shouldn't have said
hello. They looked embarrassed. I didn't respond, and
everybody went on their own merry way. I literally was on a
phone call. I just wanted to let the Court know.
MR. FINKEL: Which juror?
MS. SHROFF: There were two of them together. One was
a man. One was a woman, but it was literally moments. When I
look at them, I could tell you. I was just walking to court.
I think they were behind me. I can't remember.
THE COURT: So what it suffice for me to just remind
the jurors that they'll not to have contact with the lawyers.
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, it would think look like I
sort of ratted them out. It was so inconsequential that I
really thought I shouldn't mention it, but I did so as an
abundance of caution. Literally, the juror looked abashed that
they'd done that. They made a gesture, like, why did I do
that. The two were talking to each other. It was the tall
man, the female. I think she's in the second row or maybe the
first row. It was so inconsequential, literally nothing.
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MR. FINKEL: The government has no issue with
proceeding however the Court sees fit. This seems like no
issue. I would just ask that Ms. Shroff inform the government
which juror numbers it is just so we're aware. Other than
that, I don't think there's anything that unnecessarily needs
to be done. Of course, the government has no objection to your
Honor reminding the jury of their obligations and requirements
as jurors.
THE COURT: If Ms. Shroff is asking that I not do
that, then I won't do it.
MS. SHROFF: It really was nothing. It was so
inconsequential. I even thought I shouldn't bring it up, but
just to be careful.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, given the nature of what was
discussed in the first part of this conference in the robing
room regarding the victim, the government would request that
that portion of this conference be sealed.
THE COURT: Yes. All righty. Thank you.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
(In open court)
THE COURT: Please have the jurors brought in.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning, Jurors.
I brought you in at 9:34 because we had an audio/visual
failure, and so I needed to have that fixed first. Remember
yesterday I asked whether you would be able to stay until 5:00
on July 2nd and 3rd. Is there anybody who cannot do that?
Very good. I appreciate your cooperating with me in this way.
We're going to now continue with the direct examination of the
witness. Sir, remember that you are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
DOUGLAS SKALKA, resumed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Skalka.
A. Good morning.
Q. Yesterday you explained at a high level the process for
your fees being paid. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you know even just a ballpark estimate of approximately
how much in fees your firm has been paid for the bankruptcy
work?
A. Approximately $2 million.
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Q. And do you have, again ballpark number of how much Paul
Hastings has been paid for its bankruptcy work?
A. Approximately $25 million.
Q. And can you remind us how much in assets have been
recovered to the bankruptcy estate?
A. Over a hundred million dollars.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could go to 1404-B. If we could scroll
down, Ms. Loftus.
Mr. Skalka, do you remember looking at this transcript
when we broke yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the date of this meeting of creditors?
A. April 6, 2020.
Q. How soon after the bankruptcy proceedings were filed just
for context?
A. A month and a half after the filing.
Q. So, Ms. Loftus, maybe we can blow up the bottom half or so
and we'll just scroll through.
Now I'll read the questions, Mr. Skalka, and you can
read Mr. Kwok's answers.
It says, "Does Greenwich Land, LLC -- yes, Greenwich
Land, LLC, own any real estate other than 373 Taconic Road?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Do you know anything about the property located at 3333
Ferncliff in Cos Cob, Connecticut -- if we can just scroll
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
down. Then you can read at line two, Mr. Skalka.
"A. Yes. Now I remember it. It's also owned by my wife's
company.
"Q. That being Greenwich Land?
"A. Maybe.
"Q. Do you know?
"A. I'm not sure.
"Q. Have you ever been to 33 Ferncliff?
"A. Yes.
"Q. How recently?
"A. No not recently.
"Q. Do you know when Greenwich Land purchased 33 Ferncliff?
"A. I don't remember.
"Q. Do you know approximately how much money it cost?
"A. Probably more than $1 million.
"Q. Does 1.37 million sound about right?
"A. I'm not sure.
"Q. Does the approximate purchase date of September 2019 sound
about right to you?
"A. Not sure.
"Q. Turning back to 373 Taconic for a moment, how much was
that property purchased for?
"A. Probably 400 to 500,000.
Q. And then it says the private interpreter, no, no, no, and
then the official interpreter, four to five million. I'm
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
sorry.
The next question, "Approximate time of purchase of
373 Taconic if you know?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Have you ever resided at 33 Ferncliff?
"A. No.
"Q. Do you know whether anyone currently lives there?
"A. Before there is another comrade maybe, you know, for
disjoined Chinese Communist Party, and he was to live there.
"Q. How long ago?
"A. Probably one to two years ago.
"Q. Do you remember that person's name?
"A. Yes.
"Q. What is it?
"A. Wong Din Gon.
"Q. Does anyone currently live there if you know?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Talking about 373 Taconic, where did the money come from
to purchase that property?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Do you know whether the house was purchased with cash or
financing?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Same questions for 33 Ferncliff. Do you know where the
money came from to purchase that house?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
"A. I heard it was purchased by cash.
"Q. From whom did you hear that?
"A. I don't remember.
"Q. Do you know where that money came from?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. If we could scroll down, Ms. Loftus.
Do you know what Saraca Media Group is?
"A. Saraca?
"Q. Saraca.
"A. Saraca Media Group, I do.
"Q. What is Saraca Media Group?
"A. Just Saraca, it's a company.
"Q. What kind of company?
"A. I'm not sure.
"Q. Have you ever had any relations with Saraca personally?
"A. No.
"Q. Do you know anything about the type of business that
Saraca conducts?
"A. I remember they are related to GTV media platform or they
invested on the GTV media platform.
"Q. How do you know that?
"A. Because I was their consultant who owned the consultant
and also I was the GTV host, and also this is one of the input
and platform for disjoined communist party.
"Q. When you said you were a consultant a moment ago, was that
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
for Saraca or GTV?
"A. GTV.
"Q. Has Saraca ever been -- ever had the 162 East 64th Street
address associated with it?
And then the question gets repeated, and you can start
at line 19.
"A. I don't know.
"Q. That is the family office address, correct?
"A. It's one of them.
"Q. Where are the other ones?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Are there others in New York City?
"A. I just want to clarify, Golden Spring is one of the
companies in this building 162.
"Q. Understood, and thank you. We referred to the family
office during your questioning and I just want to be clear.
When we talk about the family office, are we referring to that
address on East 64th Street?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Has GTV ever been associated with the family office
address?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Who owns Saraca?
"A. My son.
"Q. Since when?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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"A. I don't know.
"Q. Does Saraca currently exist?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Do you have any idea how many -- do you know anything
about the value of Saraca's assets?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Do you know anything about payments Saraca has made to
GTV?
"A. No, I don't know.
"Q. Has your wife ever told you about any multi-million dollar
payments from Saraca to Greenwich Land?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. You don't know whether he's ever told you or you don't
know about the payments?
"A. She never told me, and I don't even know how much.
"Q. Do you know a company called Ziba Limited, Z-I-B-A?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. I'm sorry if I've already asked this. What is the
relationship, if any, between Saraca and GTV?
"A. Saraca is the investor for GTV.
"Q. Do you know how much money Saraca invested in GTV?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. When was GTV founded?
"A. 2020, maybe 2019, not very sure.
"Q. Do you know the names of any of the officers or directors
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
of Saraca?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Do you know whether Yvette Wang is an officer or director
of Saraca?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Do you know someone called Hong Chong Wang?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Who is that?
"A. He's my partner and also comrade for disjoined communist
party.
"Q. Is he a friend of yours?
"A. Friend, comrade and a partner.
"Q. What do you mean by partner?
"A. Because we had a business corporation.
"Q. Tell me about that?
"A. Well, I don't remember the name of that company. It's a
company for investigating communist party in USA doing money
laundering and committing crimes.
"Q. Was it a for profit company?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. You don't know?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. What was the name of the company?
"A. I don't remember when getting to English. I don't
remember the name.
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"Q. Approximately what timeframe were you partners with Hong
Chong Wang in this company?
"A. I don't remember.
"Q. Within the last three years?
"A. It must be more than three years ago.
"Q. More than ten years?
"A. No.
"Q. Did Hong Chong Wang ever have any connection to Saraca?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. Was he ever an officer or director of Saraca?
"A. I don't know.
"Q. What does the G in GTV stand for?
"A. God, the goal, like in G-O-A-L.
"Q. The English word "goal?"
"A. Yeah, goal or God.
"Q. How long have you known Hong Chong Wang?
"A. I don't remember.
"Q. More than ten years?
"A. Roughly.
"Q. And you still consider him a friend today?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Just a moment, please. There's been many questions today
about Golden Spring funding your living expenses.
Is it correct that as far as your living expenses are
concerned that none of that is expected to be repaid?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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"A. Yes, true.
"Q. And so those monies are not the subject of any formal
agreement, correct?
"A. No.
"Q. And those monies essentially then are a gift to you,
correct?
"A. Yes.
"Q. What's the Rule of Law Foundation?
"A. What does that mean?
"Q. The question is, what is it?
And then the interpreter ask, Rule of Law Foundation,
yes, sir. And we can scroll down slightly.
I'll hopefully save sometime by just asking this
question instead. Are you familiar with the Rule of Law
Foundation?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Were you involved in its establishment?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Did you contribute any money to it when it was formed?
"A. Not myself.
"Q. Did you direct any entity to contribute to the Rule of Law
Foundation?
"A. Suggestion in a direct and suggesting any difference.
"Q. If there was a suggestion, please tell me it was a
suggestion?
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"A. I didn't direct anybody or order anybody. I just always
suggest people to make donations for the foundation.
Q. And then the private interpreter says, As an interpreter, I
think if the witness is asking the interpreter questions, the
interpreter should interpret the question asked by the witness
instead of answer that question. The interpreter responds. We
can scroll down. We can keep scrolling down.
Again it says by Mr. Harbach. I'll start reading the
next question.
"Did you ever suggest to any of your family members
that they donate to the Rule of Law Foundation?
"A. Yes, I did suggest.
"Q. Did any of your family members or the family controlled
enterprises contribute money to the Rule of Law Foundation?
"A. Yes.
"Q. How much money?
"A. For cash there is one over $1 million, from Hong Kong,
Japan and Mainland in China, and all combined it should be more
than 30 million.
"Q. Just focusing for the moment on contributions from your
family at your suggestion, approximately how much money is
that?
"A. I don't know the details, because of security reasons,
they don't want me to know.
"Q. Did you say a moment ago that your family contributed over
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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a million dollars?
"A. One million cash is in New York here.
"Q. When was that?
"A. I don't remember.
"Q. Is the reason -- well, let me ask it this way.
Did you suggest an amount to your family members that
they should contribute to the Rule of Law Foundation?
"A. I want them to donate, the more the better.
"Q. Is that what you told them?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Did you know whether the rule of law -- do you know
whether the Rule of Law Foundation is associated with a family
office address on 64th Street?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Did you ever make a $100 million donation to the Rule of
Law Foundation in November of 2018?
Interpreter ask to repeat the question. It gets
repeated, and you can answer the answer.
"A. No. In the live stream, like I want, tried to collect the
funds in the live stream show.
"Q. You could see the private interpreter says, not quite
exactly what the witness said (indiscernible) broadcasting is
okay. Live stream is okay. But collect money -- and the
official interpreter says, asking for donation, right. Private
interpreter says, raise. And then the witness testimony
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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continues. You can start at line 17.
"A. Raising money, raise donations. Yeah, in the live stream
broadcast thing, or whatever, you know, asking for donations
to -- you know, to raise funds, to raise money.
"Q. We can scroll down.
Did you ever promise to donate $1 billion to the Rule
of Law fund? And then the interpreter ask 10 billion you said.
And Mr. Harbach says, no, sir, 1 billion. And the answer is at
three.
"A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
"Q. Do you mean that it's possible that you made that promise?
"A. So we could reach that goal if we combine the
organizations all over the world.
"Q. Understand. And it's a simple question. I just don't
know the answer. Did you yourself ever promise to donate $1
billion to the Rule of Law fund?
"A. In the past five years, I did the live stream over 5,000
times. Some of the live stream could have reached four or five
hours. It's hard for me to remember every sentence I said.
"Q. Well, I understand that, but I'm only asking about one
issue, and it is whether you ever promised publicly or
privately or any how to donate $1 billion to the Rule of Law
fund. And then correction said donate, and the answer to that
question 24.
"A. I don't remember.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
"Q. I'll ask this one more time. Are you saying that it is
possible that you made such a promise, you just can't be sure?
"A. In front of Ms. Holley, I wouldn't say anything is
possible, but this is a very serious issue. Now they start the
scheme again.
"Q. Well, this isn't what did you have for breakfast three
days ago. This is, did you promise to donate $1 billion. And
if the answer is you don't know, that's okay.
Scroll down. And Mr. Baldiga responds. Who is he,
Mr. Skalka?
A. He was Mr. Kwok's bankruptcy counsel at the time.
Q. If we could scroll down a little more. I'll read the
question, line 17.
"So the answer might be no, but you're not saying no?
You're saying you don't remember?
"A. I said it three times. I don't remember.
Q. And you can continue at 21.
"A. Because in the past five years, (indiscernible) always
making these kind of answers for me, so that's why the judge
from the south district were fooled by you and you started
again.
Q. I'll move on. You can continue.
"A. In the south district court I only met judge 20 seconds.
I didn't say one sentence within this five years, and I was
fined a total about $300 million because that's what they did.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
Q. And then just pause for a second, Mr. Skalka. The about
$300 million, is that about the amount in the PAX case?
A. The total judgment including the initial judgment plus the
fine was approximately a little over $250 million.
Q. And was that case in the Southern District of New York or
in a state court?
A. It was in the New York Supreme court which is a state
court.
Q. If we can just scroll down slightly more. There's back and
forth between the attorneys. Then the question continues.
"Have you made any donations to the Rule of Law
Foundation in the last two years?
"A. Myself, right?
"Q. Yes, sir.
"A. No.
"Q. Have you suggested to any of your family that they make
donations to the Rule of Law Foundation within the last two
years?
"A. I don't remember.
"Q. Would you ever have made a promise to donate $1 billion to
the Rule of Law Foundation if you did not actually have that
money?
And ask to be repeated. Would you have ever made a
promise to donate $1 billion to the Rule of Law Foundation if
you did not actually have that money?
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4090
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
And then, Mr. Skalka, you see line 11, it says the
official interpreter, and you can read the line that starts, He
said.
A. He said are you -- want to sentencing me to death sentence.
Q. Mr. Skalka, are there any death sentences in bankruptcy
proceedings?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. And if we scroll down, Ms. Loftus. That's the end of the
exhibit. We can leave it there. You can take that down,
Ms. Loftus.
Now, Mr. Skalka, after the meeting of creditors we
were just looking at, did there come a time when a bankruptcy
trustee was appointed in Mr. Kwok's case?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately when was he appointed?
A. He was appointed by order of the bankruptcy court in June
of 2022.
Q. Ms. Loftus, could we please publish Government Exhibit
VI-194. Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom on the top left, please.
Mr. Skalka, do you recognize whose shown in the top
left here?
A. I recognize the person in the picture.
Q. Who is that?
A. That's the chapter 11 trustee.
Q. Mr. Skalka, were you the subject of any protest?
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4091
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka- Direct
A. I was not.
Q. Who was?
MR. KAMARAJU: Object to form.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Who was the subject of the protest?
MR. KAMARAJU: Object to form. It's the same
question.
THE COURT: If you would lay the foundation, please.
Q. Were there any protest related to the bankruptcy of
Mr. Kwok?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the subject of those protests?
A. The chapter 11 trustee was the subject of some of the
protests.
Q. Who else, if anyone, was the subject of the protest?
A. Paul Hastings law firm was the subject of protest. PAX was
a subject of protest, and the law firm representing PAX was a
subject of protest.
Q. Were any family members?
A. Yes, the daughter of the chapter 11 trustee.
Q. Mr. Skalka, in your 35 years of bankruptcy related
practice, how common are such protest?
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection to relevance.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. This is the first case I've seen these types of protest.
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4092
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
Q. We can take it down, Ms. Loftus.
Mr. Skalka, are Mr. Kwok's bankruptcy proceeding
ongoing?
A. Yes.
Q. Has PAX been repaid based upon Kwok's personal guarantee?
A. No.
Q. Have any creditors been repaid yet?
A. None of the pre-bankruptcy often referred to as
pre-petition creditors have been paid. Ongoing expenses during
the bankruptcy case are being paid.
MR. FERGENSON: May I have a moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. Mr. Skalka, you mentioned PAX's law firm, what law firm is
that?
A. O'Melveny & Myers.
MR. FERGENSON: No further questions.
THE COURT: Cross examination.
MR. KAMARAJU: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. Good morning. Could you tell me again the bankruptcy
trustee's name?
A. Luc Despins.
Q. Now, Mr. Fergenson asked you over your last 35 years of
bankruptcy have you ever seen protest?
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4093
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
A. I believe the question was in bankruptcy cases. That's
correct.
Q. How common are chapter 11 bankruptcy filings for
individuals?
A. They're not as common as they are corporate entities, but
I've been involved in several of them over the years.
Q. Of the several of them that you've been involved in over
the years, have any of those people been the subject of plots
by the Chinese Communist Party to return them to China?
A. No.
Q. Have any of them been the subject of a plot to kidnap that
person and return them to China?
A. No.
Q. Have any of them been the subject of a plot to discredit
them online? Let me rephrase that. Discredit them online
specifically by the Chinese Communist Party?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware that Mr. Guo, all of those things happen to
him?
A. I'm not.
Q. So that's in prepared for your testimony today,
Mr. Fergenson did not discuss that with you, correct?
A. No.
Q. And could we have back up the photo of from the protest. I
think it's GXVI-194 maybe. You remember you were asked some
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4094
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
questions about this by Mr. Fergenson?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any familiarity with what the phrase CCP
running dog means?
A. No.
Q. And do you see on that poster, do you see where it says
Take Down the CCP?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you understand this to associate Mr. Despins with the
CCP?
A. I'm not sure what this is trying to be communicated by that
poster other than -- I just don't know.
Q. Let's screen out, let's zoom out real quick.
Now, do you see the bottom there's a number $250
million?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see above it says extortionist appointed by the
DOJ?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that figure $250 million have any significance in the
context of the PAX settlement negotiations?
A. I don't know. I have not been a party to the settlement
negotiation between PAX and Mr. Kwok.
Q. Mr. Despins has though, right?
A. Mr. Despins is the trustee representing the estate, which
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4095
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
includes many creditors not just PAX.
Q. You're aware that there were negotiations between PAX and
Mr. Guo's counsel to settle PAX's claims, correct?
MR. FERGENSON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Were there any negotiations between Mr. Despins and
Mr. Guo's counsel to settle the bankruptcy?
A. There was a court-ordered mediation in the bankruptcy, and
so there were negotiations as part of that bankruptcy
court-ordered mediation.
Q. Did Mr. Despins make a demand as part of that court-ordered
mediation?
A. I was not present during the mediation, so I believe he
did, but I was not present for those mediation sessions.
Q. To your understanding what was that demand?
A. I don't know.
THE COURT: Mr. Kamaraju, please speak into the
microphone.
MR. KAMARAJU: Sorry, your Honor.
Q. Now, you see it says appointed by DOJ. I think on direct
you testified about someone named Ms. Claiborne?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is she again?
A. Ms. Claiborne is a trial attorney for the Office of the
United States Trustee.
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4096
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
Q. And the Office of the United States Trustee, is that in any
particular department?
A. My understanding it's a branch of the department of
justice.
Q. And the office of the trustee makes recommendations as to
chapter 11 trustees to the bankruptcy court, right?
A. Yes.
Q. That's what happened in this case, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So someone from Mr. Claiborne's office recommended
Mr. Despins, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Mr. Despins the first trustee put forward to your
knowledge?
A. He was not.
Q. Who was the first one?
A. I don't recall the individual's name.
Q. Do you have an understanding as to why there was a second
trustee put forward?
A. My understanding is the first trustee had a conflict or
conflicts.
Q. And as part of Mr. Despins selection -- let me withdraw.
As a general matter, is there any kind of vetting done
of a potential chapter 11 trustee?
A. It is my understanding that there is some vetting done,
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4097
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
yes.
Q. What's your understanding of what that vetting is?
A. There's an interview process, U.S. trustee office contacts
people that they believe might be a qualified candidate to be a
trustee. And at some point once they get down to a few
candidates, my understanding is that there is some conflicts
review being done by each candidate before they're selected.
Q. And is it your understanding that that process happened in
Mr. Guo's bankruptcy?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you remember Mr. Fergenson asked you about are there
any death sentences in bankruptcy cases. You remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if there are any death sentences possible under
Chinese criminal law?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection.
A. I do not know.
Q. Now, you were also asked some questions about the PAX
litigation on direct, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, PAX filed its complaint against Mr. Guo on April 18,
2017, correct?
A. It was filed in early 2017. I don't recall the exact date.
Q. I'm going to see if I can help you out with that. Can we
put up just for the witness and the parties DX7006, please.
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4098
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
Just please review it for yourself.
A. I see it.
Q. So the question solely is, does looking at this document
refresh your recollection as to the date of the filing of the
PAX complaint?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that date April 18, 2017?
A. Yes.
Q. You're aware that that's the day before the Chinese
government filed an Interpol red notice against Mr. Guo, right?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. You're aware that that's the day before Mr. Guo did a live
interview about Chinese corruption for Voice of America, right?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. What is PAX exactly?
A. It's an entity that lends money or lent money in this
circumstance to a business known as Shiny Times Holdings.
Q. Do you know any significance to the fact that it's named
The Pacific Asia Alliance Opportunity Fund?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know where it's based?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know if it has a focus on investments in Asia?
A. I do not.
Q. You didn't represent any of the parties in the PAX
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4099
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
litigation, right?
A. I did not.
Q. So your familiarity with that case comes purely from
reading documents filed in it, right?
A. And hearing about the case in bankruptcy proceedings, but
yes.
Q. All second-hand information, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You didn't attend any of the hearings in the PAX
litigation, right?
A. I did not.
Q. You didn't intervene in any way in the PAX litigation,
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And when Mr. Fergenson was asking you questions about the
PAX litigation, he went over with you the documents that he
would like you to read from, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he went over with you the questions that he was likely
to ask you, right?
A. Not specifically.
Q. Well, I'm not saying he asked you the specific questions.
Generally speaking, he told you what he'd like you to talk
about, right?
A. Correct.
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4100
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
Q. Mr. Fergenson asked you some questions about a state court
order in the PAX litigation. Do you remember that?
A. He asked me about several state court orders I believe.
Q. Let me be specific. I meant the one granting summary
judgment. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. When the summary judgment order was granted, that meant
that there was effectively obligation for Mr. Guo to pay some
money, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was north of $100 million, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And I think you testified that PAX was seeking to collect
on that judgment, right?
A. Once that judgment was entered, yes.
Q. After the judgment was entered, PAX was making efforts to
collect, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Guo wasn't paying it, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, from your experience in the bankruptcy case, you're
aware that Mr. Guo claimed in that case that PAX is controlled
by the CCP, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And, in fact, the protest that you refer to against PAX,
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4101
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
Mr. Guo linked those also to the CCP, right?
A. I believe that was his claim.
Q. And the same with the protest against the trustee, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in addition to aligning PAX with the CCP, Mr. Guo also
claimed that the trustee had scuttled a settlement between PAX
and Mr. Guo's lawyers, correct?
MR. FERGENSON: Object to form.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Are you aware that Mr. Guo claims in that motion included
that the trustee had scuttled a settlement between PAX and
Mr. Guo's counsel?
MR. FERGENSON: Object to hearsay.
THE COURT: I'm going to allow the question.
A. I'm sorry. I don't recall a particular motion that was
filed by Mr. Kwok related to the negotiations or mediation.
That was your question?
Q. In any bankruptcy filing that you're aware of in Mr. Guo's
bankruptcy proceeding, are you aware of him making accusations
that Mr. Despins had scuttled the settlement agreement between
PAX and Mr. Guo?
A. No.
Q. Now, leading into -- the protest against Mr. Despins began
in November of 2022, correct?
A. It was fall of 2022. I don't recall the exact date or
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4102
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
month, but it was in the fall of 2022.
Q. Around that time you're aware that Mr. Guo made a motion to
disqualify Mr. Despins in the bankruptcy case?
A. My recollection is that motion was prior to the protest.
Q. Sure. It was not immediately coincidental, but it was
before, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And as part of that motion, Mr. Guo's lawyer accused the
trustee of being part of the CCP?
MR. FERGENSON: Your Honor, objection to hearsay.
This is not admissible.
THE COURT: I'm going to allow the question.
A. Can you restate the question.
MR. KAMARAJU: Could we have it read back, please.
(Record was read)
A. I don't recall that accusation.
Q. Let me see if I can help you with that. Let me put up just
for the witness and the parties -- can I have just one moment,
your Honor -- DX60658, just for the witness and the parties.
Can we just scroll through that document for the
witness. We can take that down actually. Sorry. Let's move
on.
Let's go back to the PAX case for a second, okay.
Now, there was first an initial contempt order filed in the PAX
case, correct?
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4103
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO1 Skalka - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. That's a conditional contempt order of some sort?
A. I believe it was referred to as the initial contempt order.
Q. Whatever the term, there was one first and then there was
one later, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the first one fined Mr. Guo $500,000 a day until the
Lady May was returned to New York, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Guo faced potential time if he didn't comply,
correct?
A. The official contempt order made no reference to jail time
or additional fines. My recollection is that contempt order
provided 60 days for Mr. Guo, Mr. Kwok to return the Lady May
to the jurisdiction before the fines would start being levied.
(Continued on the next page)
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4104
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. Okay. And the yacht didn't come back though, right?
A. It did not.
Q. Okay. Do you know where the yacht was at that time?
A. Based on the pleadings, it was indicated the boat, or the
yacht, was in Europe.
Q. Okay. Do you know if Mr. Guo was in Europe at that time?
A. I do not.
Q. Okay. Now there were court hearings in New York in the PAX
litigation, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You testified about an evidentiary hearing, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Guo was at those hearings, right?
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay. So he wasn't in Europe at those times, right?
A. The evidentiary hearing was in February of 2022. I believe
he was in New York for that hearing.
Q. Okay. Now the PAX had also obtained a summary judgment
order by this time, correct?
A. By February of 2022, yes.
Q. Sorry. I meant by the time of the first contempt order
going out.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now Mr. Guo didn't use any money from G|CLUBS to pay
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4105
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
that underlying summary judgment order, right?
A. No money was used to pay that summary judgment.
Q. Right. So not G|CLUBS money, not GTV money, not Himalaya
Exchange money; no money, right?
A. Correct.
Q. It went unsatisfied, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in early 2022, PAX moved for the final contempt order,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the court granted that on November 9th; is that right?
A. I believe it was February 9, 2022.
Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I misspoke. Thank you. February 9th,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. 2022. And the total fees/fines that Mr. Guo had to pay
were $134 million, correct?
A. Yes.
MR. KAMARAJU: Could we pull up GX 1413 at 2, please.
Does everybody have it on their screens? Okay. Let
me just give that a second.
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Q. All right. So paragraph 2 there says, "directed to tender
immediate payment to PAX," correct?
A. Yes.
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4106
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. And the amount is $134 million, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then on paragraph 4, it says, "Payment of the amount
set forth in paragraph 2 above shall be made to PAX within five
business days of the service of this order, with notice of
entry," correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So Mr. Guo's deadline to comply I think was
February 16, 2022, correct?
A. I believe that's correct. I mean, five business days. I
didn't pull out a calendar, but I believe there's probably a
weekend day in there and so that is probably accurate.
Q. Right. Right. Well, let me put it this way. He filed his
bankruptcy petition on February 15, 2022, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the day before he was going to have to pay
this, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And I think you testified about it; there's a weekend in
there, right?
A. Yeah, I believe so.
Q. Okay. So the bankruptcy judge——sorry. Withdrawn.
The state court judge ordered Mr. Guo to pay more than
a hundred million dollars in basically a week, right?
A. Yes.
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4107
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. And Mr. Guo didn't use G|CLUBS money to pay that either,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. He didn't use Himalaya Exchange money to pay that, right?
A. Correct.
Q. He didn't use GTV money to pay that, right?
A. Correct.
Q. He didn't use Rule of Law donations to pay that, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And Mr. Guo did face potential jail time if he violated
this contempt order, correct?
A. That's my understanding.
Q. And despite that, he still did not use any of that money to
pay this fine, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now instead, Mr. Guo filed bankruptcy, right?
A. He did file bankruptcy, yes.
Q. Now when one files bankruptcy, it's fair to say that you
have to give up certain information about yourself, right?
A. Financial information, yes.
Q. Right. You have to disclose assets and liabilities, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You have to publicly disclose that you don't have
sufficient assets to cover your liabilities, correct?
A. You have to disclose the extent of your assets and
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4108
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
liabilities. Sometimes it might actually show you can pay off
your bills but maybe not pay them off right away, so——but you
need to disclose them.
Q. Can you explain what you mean with that last answer.
A. You can disclose assets that appear to be more than your
liabilities.
Q. But they might not be liquid so you can't pay right away,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. So the fact that somebody declares bankruptcy does not mean
that they don't have access to significant assets, it just
means they don't have access to liquid assets at that moment,
right?
MR. FERGENSON: Object to form.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Well, can you explain what you just meant then by
the difference between liquid and illiquid assets in the
context of a bankruptcy filing.
A. You can disclose assets that——and values of assets
that——that are in excess of the amount of your liabilities but
they may not all be liquid at the time that you disclose them,
meaning that they may not all be in cash; they may be in forms
of assets, whether it's real estate or investments, that are
not able to be——
THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpreters are
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4109
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
requesting that all parties slow down. Thank you.
THE COURT: Please slow down.
MR. KAMARAJU: Will do, your Honor.
Q. Please go ahead.
A. You're not able to liquidate those assets for some period
of time and therefore not able to pay your bills.
Q. And in this case the period of time was a week, right?
A. The purpose of the bankruptcy is often to provide debtors
time to pay your bills, so——but you need to disclose the full
extent of your assets, whether they're liquid or not.
Q. Right. So what I was saying is the amount——well,
withdrawn. We'll move on.
Now are you familiar with the term "personal
bankruptcy"?
A. Yes.
Q. What, colloquially, is meant by personal bankruptcy?
A. That means a bankruptcy filing by an individual rather than
a business entity or a corporate entity.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Let's pull up, if we can,
please, GX 1419, which is in evidence, please.
Let's publish it.
Actually, sorry. Before we do that, could we go to
GX 1407, real quick.
Can everybody see it? Okay. Great.
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
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4110
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. This is Mr. Guo's petition to file bankruptcy, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And just to tie it down——if we can go to
page 7——that's his signature, correct, electronic?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was executed on February 15, 2022, right?
A. Yes.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Now can we go to page——sorry.
The page just shifted on me, but can we go to page 1 of
the——well, page 10 of 14 at the top there on the pdf. It's a
form, official Form 104.
There we go. Thank you.
Now could we just scroll down a little bit. Oh, we
lost it.
All right. Thanks. Can we scroll down a little bit.
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. Okay. You see No. 2 there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. That's Golden Spring, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says, "What is the nature of the claim?" Can you
read that?
A. Yes. Oh.
Q. Yeah, could you read what it says.
A. "Litigation funding."
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. And how much is disclosed as the approximate amount of
this?
A. Approximately $21 million.
Q. So does this reflect that Golden Spring is identified as
having a $21 million outstanding debt?
A. This is a list of the 20 largest creditors as filed by
Mr. Kwok, and Golden Spring is listed as the second largest
creditor with a claim of $21 million.
MR. KAMARAJU: And can we go to page 13.
Q. Okay. And you see No. 16 there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Can you read the creditor's name.
A. Lamp Capital, LLC.
Q. And what's the nature of that claim?
A. Litigation loan.
Q. And what's the amount?
A. $1 million.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. If we can go to 1419 now,
please.
Q. All right. This is another filing——I'm sorry. Do you need
a sec?
Okay. This is another filing Mr. Guo's counsel made
in bankruptcy, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Global Notes and Statements is basically an explanation
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4112
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
document of some sort?
A. In this case, yes.
Q. Okay. Provides additional details, right?
A. Regarding the documents, some of which we just looked at,
the bankruptcy schedules and statement of financial affairs.
Q. Okay. So let's just start with page 4, please.
And I think Mr. Fergenson asked you some questions
about question 1b. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you look down——
MR. KAMARAJU: We can go to No. ii, please, Jorge.
Thank you.
Q. Okay. And he asked you some questions about this
paragraph, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now can you actually just read the first paragraph, please.
A. Yes. "The debtor also has access to an apartment located
at the Sherry-Netherland Hotel, 781 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY
10022 ('the Apartment'). The cooperative shares in the
Apartment are held by Genever Holdings LLC ('the US SPV'). The
membership interests in the US SPV are held by Genever Holdings
Corporation ('the BVI company'). The debtor holds all of the
equity of the BVI company; however, pursuant to a Declaration
of Trust and Agreement, dated as of February 17, 2015 ('the
Trust Date'), the debtor holds such equity in trust for Bravo
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4113
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Luck Limited ('the Apartment Owner'). The debtor's son owns
the equity of the Apartment Owner. On or about the Trust Date,
the Apartment Owner funded the US SPV with the purchase price
for the Apartment. These funds came from entities owned or
controlled by the debtor's son and not from the debtor."
Q. Okay. So do you understand all that to be a long way of
saying that Mr. Guo's son owned the Sherry-Netherland
apartment?
A. That's my understanding of what is being asserted in this
document.
Q. Right. That's what's said here, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what the purchase price was when it was
purchased by Mr. Guo's son?
A. Approximately——the purchase price was approximately
$60 million.
Q. Okay. And I'm not going to ask you to read the next
paragraph, but if you could just take a look at it.
Do you see there's a reference there below to "in the
face of multiple court disputes relating primarily to the
beneficial ownership of the residence," then it goes on to say
"as between Bravo Luck Limited . . . and PAX"?
A. I see that.
Q. Okay. So PAX had also initiated litigation regarding the
Sherry-Netherland apartment, correct?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
A. It was regarding I believe Genever, the two Genever
entities, Genever Holdings, LLC and Genever Corporation.
Q. And that litigation was commenced in the British Virgin
Islands, correct?
A. Yes, and also in the New York Supreme Court action.
Q. Okay. So there were two, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And British Virgin Islands is sometimes referred to as BVI,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And BVI is a regular place of business, correct? A
lot of businesses are in BVI, right?
A. A lot of businesses are incorporated in BVI, yes.
Q. That's for various corporate benefits, right?
A. That's my understanding.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Let's go to the next page.
Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you to read all of it, but
question 3, you see where it says, "The Debtor has use of
automobiles, including luxury automobiles and motorcycles"? Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it says, "All costs and expenses associated with such
vehicles are provided for directly by family and
family-controlled enterprises," correct?
A. That's what it says.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
THE COURT: One moment, please.
MR. KAMARAJU: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may continue.
MR. KAMARAJU: Thank you, your Honor.
If we could go to page 6, please.
Q. All right. And you see question 17?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Fergenson asked you a few questions about that on
direct as well, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now of the individual Chapter 11 cases that you've had
during your career, how many of them have had restraining
orders, how many of them involved debtors with restraining
orders imposed by the High Court of Hong Kong?
A. None other than the Kwok bankruptcy proceeding.
Q. Right. He's the only one, right?
A. Of the cases I've been involved in.
Q. Sure.
MR. KAMARAJU: And could we go to page 7.
Q. And paragraph i, do you see where it says, "In September
and October 2017, the Chinese government raided the offices of
Shiny Times and seized all accounting corporate records and
many personal financial records"? You see that?
A. Yes.
Q. So in all those individual Chapter 11 cases you've done,
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
how many of them have had debtors who have had their offices
raided by the Chinese government?
A. This was the only case.
Q. Okay. Fair to say that Mr. Guo's bankruptcy case is pretty
unique, in your experience?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And one of the reasons it's unique is because
Mr. Guo declared basically having no assets, right?
A. No. I've been involved in other cases in which debtors
have disclosed little or no assets.
THE COURT: Sir, if you'll speak into the microphone
so everyone can hear you.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
A. I have been involved in other bankruptcy cases in which the
debtor has disclosed little or no assets. But——so that's
not——that by itself is not unusual or make it a unique case.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. I was just curious if that was one
factor. I'm sorry. We didn't hear your answer. Was that one
factor?
A. It's——yes, it's one factor.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Could we go to page 11, please.
Q. All right. Do you see Schedule I?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You see the sentence there that says, "The Debtor
does receive support funded by family and companies controlled
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
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by family for housing, household and living expenses," correct?
A. That's what it says.
Q. Okay. The fact that Mr. Guo received support from family
and companies controlled by family would not make him
ineligible to file Chapter 11, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And in fact, there is a mechanism by which an inappropriate
Chapter 11 filing could be dismissed, right?
A. There's a mechanism where parties can seek to dismiss a
bankruptcy case for virtually any reason. The parties can move
to dismiss.
Q. And a creditor can do that, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And PAX was a creditor in this bankruptcy, right?
A. Correct.
Q. So PAX could have moved to dismiss the bankruptcy if it had
wanted.
A. PAX actually did move to dismiss at some point.
Q. Okay. And what happened?
A. The judge denied this at the same time that a motion was
made to appoint the trustee, and instead of dismissing the
case, the court granted the motion to appoint the trustee.
Q. Okay. So Mr. Despins was appointed in lieu of dismissing
the bankruptcy, right?
A. Correct.
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4118
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. Are you familiar with the term "trust fund baby"?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection to relevance.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Okay. Are you familiar with other instances in which a
debtor has been supported by their family primarily?
A. Yes.
Q. So that's not unusual in a bankruptcy case, right?
A. I've seen it before. I've seen it in other cases.
Q. Now you testified you weren't party to the settlement
negotiations or the mediation conference, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. So as part of that, as part of your work as local counsel,
do you familiarize yourself with the proceedings that are going
on in court?
A. Yes.
Q. And you submit the applications that go with that, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you describe the work that you've done?
A. That my firm has done.
Q. Correct. And I think you testified on direct that
Mr. Despins and his firm had received approximately $25 million
in fees, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that there had been——withdrawn.
And where did those fees get paid out of?
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4119
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
A. The recoveries that have occurred to date in the bankruptcy
proceedings.
Q. And that's a little over a hundred million dollars,
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. So Mr. Despins's fees have been approximately 25 percent of
what's been recovered, correct?
A. Approximately.
Q. Sure. I'm not asking for specifics but approximately,
right?
Now when you testified about that, was it called a 314
interview, correct?
A. 341.
Q. 341. Okay. Thank you. So a 341 interview is where the
debtor has to sit and answer questions, correct?
A. Correct. That's the creditors meeting. 341 is a section
in the Bankruptcy Code. Sorry to get so technical, but——and
that's what refers to the creditors meeting.
Q. Okay. So is that a meeting that's available to all of the
creditors?
A. Yes. All creditors get notice of that meeting.
Q. Okay. And so any of them can show up and ask questions if
they want, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And is it appropriate to say the DOJ trustee? What's the
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4120
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
best way to describe Ms. Claiborn's position?
A. I refer to her as the trial attorneys for the Office of the
U.S. Trustee, so often it's referred to as U.S. trustee.
Q. Okay. So it's fair to say the U.S. trustee can ask
questions at that as well, right?
A. U.S. Trustee's Office actually administers or runs the
meeting, so yes.
Q. Okay. And they can ask questions about any of the debtor's
financial affairs, right?
A. Yes.
Q. They can ask questions about transactions that the debtor
has entered into, right?
A. To the extent they know of them, yes.
Q. Sure. They ask questions about assets and liabilities,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the debtor has to answer those questions, right?
A. The debtor is obligated to cooperate in the bankruptcy
proceeding and answer truthfully.
Q. Okay. Now you looked at I think a couple of excerpts
earlier from that. Do you remember that?
A. From the transcripts of the creditors meetings?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Fergenson sort of did a little role play with you,
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
right?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm not going to do as much, but I'm going to try and do
just a little bit, okay?
MR. KAMARAJU: Could we pull out GX 1401A, please, and
put it up on everybody's screen.
All right. And if we could go to page 51 of the
transcript first.
Q. And you see line 11 there?
A. Yes.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Actually, I'm going to——yeah,
line 11 is fine.
Q. So I'll read it and then we can skip all that other stuff
and then you can go to the answer, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. "Mr. Kwok, who is Max Krasner?"
And then I think it picks up at 22. That's
Mr. Baldiga's answer.
A. "He has to double-check with you because I cannot read and
cannot remember English names well. So just the name, you said
Max. If it's the name Max only, I know Max. But if you add
another name to it, I'm not sure. I don't know."
Q. "Do you know a Max with respect to Golden Spring?"
A. "Yes, I know."
Q. "And what is Max's role with Golden Spring?"
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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A. "I don't know."
Q. "Well, do you know Max?"
A. "I don't remember."
Q. "Do you know more than one person by the name of Max?"
A. "For me English name is very complicated. Like I can't
remember the last name of my lawyer. If you add something else
to Max, I don't know."
Q. "Mr. Kwok, the name Max Krasner is listed as the person to
whom the mail for Golden Spring is directed to. Do you know
why that is?"
"Interpreter: Sorry?"
"Do you know why that is?"
A. "I only remember there is a Max at Golden Spring. I only
know this one thing."
Q. "And what is Max's job at Golden Spring?"
A. "I'm not sure what role. I (indiscernible) know he is in
charge of finance, but I'm not sure."
Q. "What does he do for Golden Spring with respect to
finances?"
A. "I was not involved in the management so I don't know."
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Can we keep going with page 54
real quick.
Just scroll down to line 20.
Right there is fine. Thank you.
Q. "Mr. Kwok, do you have access to a credit card or a debit
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
card provided to you by or through Golden Spring?"
A. "No."
Q. Okay. As part of his bankruptcy filings, are you aware of
Mr. Guo disclosing any credit card debt?
A. I don't believe he did.
Q. Okay. Did he disclose having any credit cards?
A. I don't believe he did.
Q. The only property he disclosed was having an iPhone, right?
A. He disclosed some clothing, he mentioned a family dog, and
some checks that had not been cashed.
Q. Right. The Pomeranian, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now how often have bankruptcy debtors had no credit
cards?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection to relevance.
THE COURT: You may answer.
A. I've seen it many times in business bankruptcy proceedings.
Q. Sure. How about individuals?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. How about individuals?
A. I believe I've seen it before, but more common to see
credit card debt in individual bankruptcy filings.
Q. Okay. Now you were asked some questions about a loan
document. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
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4124
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
MR. KAMARAJU: All right. So can we just pull up
what's been marked as Government Exhibit 1316, please.
Q. Do you remember testifying about this on direct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now the only time you've seen this document is in the
context of the bankruptcy case, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you weren't there when it was signed, right?
A. No.
Q. You're not a Himalaya International Financial Group
employee, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You are not an employee of HK International Funds
Investments, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You don't know Mei Guo personally, right?
A. I do not.
Q. You don't recognize the signatures on the document, right,
other than Ms. Guo?
A. Other than Ms. Guo. I've seen her signature on several
documents.
Q. Right. But you've never actually seen her sign those
documents, right?
A. Correct.
Q. So do you see at the top——and there's a sticker at the top,
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4125
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
but at the top left it says, Case 22-05003. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see it says Doc 84-1?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why that's on there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Could you explain to us why it is.
A. I believe I testified on direct that there was an adversary
proceeding that had been commenced by HK International Funds
Investments (USA), commonly referred to as HK USA. An
adversary proceeding is a lawsuit within a bankruptcy
proceeding. And this is the docket number for that lawsuit
that had been commenced by HK USA, and this document, this
exhibit in this proceeding, was filed as an exhibit in that
adversary proceeding, and that's the document number that was
assigned to the——this document when it was filed in the
adversary proceeding.
Q. Okay. So this document is now a matter of public record,
correct?
A. Yes, it was——again, it was filed in the bankruptcy court
adversary proceeding, which is a public filing.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Could we pull up GX 1314
quickly.
Q. You remember testifying about this document before, right?
A. Yes.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. Okay. And it too has that same docket stamp at the top,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So it was also publicly filed, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, and you similarly were not there at the execution of
this document, right?
A. Correct.
MR. KAMARAJU: All right. Could we turn to page 4 of
the document, please.
Q. All right. And you see the section that says Purpose? You
see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see 3.2 there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Could you read the first sentence, please.
A. "The Total Facility amount will be used as security for the
court in relation to the Yacht."
Q. Okay. So what's your understanding of what it means to say
"security for the court in relation to the Yacht"?
A. My understanding from reading this document was it was
intended as a secured loan on the lot——excuse me——on the yacht,
and to be disclosed to the bankruptcy court.
Q. Okay. And why would it need to be disclosed to the
bankruptcy court?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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A. Because at the time of this loan being made, there were
proceedings pending in the bankruptcy court about what was
going to happen to the Lady May and whether or not PAX would be
allowed to go back to the state court and try to pursue a
recovery of the Lady May.
THE COURT: What do you understand the word "facility"
to mean?
THE WITNESS: "Facility" I believe was defined earlier
in the document, your Honor, as the loan that was going to be
provided by Himalaya to the borrower.
Q. Okay. Could you look at the next sentence, please.
A. "The period the borrower retains the Total Facility Amount
in the escrow account will be the time period from the date of
this agreement to when the yacht is returned to the USA."
Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that this facility amount was
intended to be like a bond for when the boat would come back?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And it was going to be held in escrow, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So this 37 million wasn't to buy the yacht, right?
A. No. It was a loan to HK USA, who was then going to put it
up as a——as a bond in connection with the
negotiation——negotiated settlement of the Lady May in the
bankruptcy court.
Q. Right. No one's getting a new yacht with this 37 million,
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4128
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
right?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And do you know what happened to that $37 million in
the escrow account?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to it?
A. The bankruptcy court, in connection with the adversary
proceeding that is referred to here, ultimately found that the
$37 million, as well as the Lady May, were property of the
bankruptcy estate, and they——the funds were recovered by the
trustee and put into the bankruptcy estate.
Q. Okay. So that $37 million is part of the $100 million that
you testified about before?
A. Yes.
Q. And so after the trustee took that action, the $37 million
could not be returned to the lender in this matter, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now all of this, this whole arrangement, was disclosed to
the state court, correct?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Okay. It was disclosed to the bankruptcy court?
A. Yes.
Q. And so no one hid this arrangement from the court, correct?
A. Not to the bankruptcy court.
MR. KAMARAJU: Now can we go back to 1316, please,
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4129
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
GX 1316.
Make sure everybody has that.
Q. Okay. Do you remember this? This is the side letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you testified that a side letter is a sort of an
amendment to an agreement, right?
A. In this case, yes.
Q. Okay. And again, you weren't present for the signing of
this, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You have no personal knowledge of the circumstances of the
execution, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Now do you see 1.3(a)? It says, "The loan in the
loan agreement will no longer be deemed to be secured against
the yacht." Correct?
A. That's what it says, yes.
Q. Okay. So the effect of this is that the yacht is no longer
security for the loan, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you see the date on this document, April 19, 2022?
Sorry. If we blow it back out, you'll see it at the
top there.
A. It refers to the loan agreement being dated April 19, 2022,
but I believe the date of this document is April 29, 2022.
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4130
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. You're right. Thank you.
A. That's all right.
Q. So at that time, April 29, 2022, there were a number of
different demands to the yacht, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. PAX had a demand to it, right?
A. They had a demand to it for purposes of collection of their
judgment, yes.
Q. Sure. And the state court had entered a restraining order
on it, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So they couldn't have transferred the yacht if they'd
wanted to, right?
MR. FERGENSON: Object to form. Calls for
speculation. I'm not sure what the question is.
THE COURT: Are you asking for a legal conclusion?
MR. KAMARAJU: No. I'm just asking for his
understanding.
THE COURT: I'll allow the question.
A. It would have been possible for HK USA to transfer its
title interest in the property, in the yacht at that time.
Q. Okay. But it didn't do that, right?
A. It did not.
Q. It just left it there, right?
A. Correct. And as I said, they started——HK USA started a
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
lawsuit to actually claim that they were the owner of the
property, of the boat.
Q. Right. They availed themselves of the U.S. court system,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And all of the disclosures that come with that, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So instead of doing the title thing, they filed a lawsuit.
A. I don't know if they were planning to do anything with the
title.
Q. Fair enough. Because, again, you're not part of the
company, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You never spoke to Mei Guo about it, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You have no idea what her thinking is, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you ever heard of William Je?
A. I've heard the name.
Q. You heard the name in the context of the bankruptcy?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. In what context did his name come up?
A. Just that he had a relationship with Mr. Kwok.
Q. Okay. But you've never spoken to him, right?
A. Correct.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. You have no idea what his reasons are for entering into any
loans, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Same with ACA Capital, right? You have no personal
knowledge of anything at ACA Capital?
A. I have no connection to ACA Capital.
Q. Same with the Himalaya Exchange?
A. Correct. I have no connection to Himalaya Exchange.
Q. And you remember Mr. Fergenson asked you questions about a
draft loan agreement, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that draft had ACA on it, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it switched to the Himalaya International
Financial Group in the final, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you ever heard of a typo?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KAMARAJU: Now if I could have just one minute,
your Honor.
Q. Now you're what's called local counsel; is that a fair
description?
A. Yes, and conflicts counsel as well.
Q. Okay. So Mr. Despins's firm hired you as local counsel,
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
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correct?
A. Hired my firm, yes.
Q. Yeah, sorry, your firm. And you testified that your firm
has made roughly $2 million based on that engagement?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm not asking for particulars, but is that a big, small,
or large engagement for your firm?
A. We're a 40-lawyer firm. We've been in——I've been in
practice with the firm for 30 years. We've had larger matters,
we've had smaller matters, so I——
Q. Okay. So it's not substantial, not insubstantial.
A. Correct.
Q. And you testified before about a process by which the
trustee——I'll call him the Chapter 11 trustee, Mr. Despins,
right——how the Chapter 11 trustee was selected——not
selected——recommended by the U.S. trustee, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And that recommendation is a necessary step to somebody
being appointed Chapter 11 trustee by the bankruptcy court,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So if Mr. —— if a person wanted to be a Chapter 11 trustee
in the District of Connecticut, they would need that
recommendation, right?
A. It's actually an appointment by the Office of the U.S.
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4134
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Trustee, but yes.
Q. Okay. Sorry. Let's use that word, to make it accurate.
So to be appointed, they would need the approval of the U.S.
trustee, right, and that's true for every bankruptcy case in
the District of Connecticut that comes next, right?
A. As far as Chapter 11 trustees, yes.
Q. So if Mr. Despins wants to plan to be a Chapter 11 trustee
down the road, he needs approval from the U.S. trustee, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And again, that's a department of the Department of
Justice, correct?
A. It's my understanding it's a branch of the Department of
Justice.
Q. Now you were hired by Mr. Despins's firm, correct?
A. We were hired by Mr. Despins.
Q. Okay. And that's his decision, right?
A. Correct.
Q. He could always decide to hire somebody else down the road,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. He could change horses even in this case, right?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Like you said, it's ongoing, right?
A. Absolutely.
Q. So he has an opportunity to pick a different firm if he'd
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
like to, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you understand Mr. Despins has spoken with the
prosecutors on a number of occasions, correct?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know if he's ever spoken with them?
A. I don't know.
Q. When were you approached about testifying in this case?
A. Approximately two weeks ago.
Q. Do you know if prior to you being approached Mr. Despins
was going to be a witness in this case?
A. I do not.
Q. Now as part of Mr. Guo's bankruptcy proceedings, you and
Mr. Despins had filed a number of court cases, I think you
mentioned, right?
A. Yes.
Q. I think you said it was over 300, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And all of those are to recover assets back into the
estate, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And by recover assets back into the estate, the
trustee's allegation is that that money actually belongs to
Mr. Guo, right?
A. They belong to the bankruptcy estate, and it's——it's the
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4136
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Kwok bankruptcy estate, so the funds would be there to pay
creditors of the estate.
Q. Right. Ultimately, the funds would be used to pay the
creditors, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And they'd be used to pay his creditors?
A. Correct.
Q. Right? And you're paying his creditors with his money,
right?
A. With the funds that we believe belong to the bankruptcy
estate.
Q. Okay. And that's his estate.
A. Yes.
Q. And the larger the estate, the more money there is that's
available for your fees, right?
A. My fees would have to be approved before they would be
paid, but there——if there's the large——I'm not being paid on a
contingency fee basis, I'm being paid on an hourly basis, so
the larger the estate doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to get
paid more money.
Q. No. My question was: There's money available to pay you,
sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Kamaraju, please speak into the
microphone.
MR. KAMARAJU: Sorry. My apologies, your Honor.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. Did you hear my question?
A. Yes. The larger the estate, there's more money to pay my
firm's fees.
Q. Okay. And you testified that Mr. Despins is not taking a
commission, right?
A. Correct.
Q. But the same is true of him, right? The larger the estate,
the more money that's available to pay his fees, right?
A. And all other expenses of the case, yes.
Q. Sure. To pay all of it, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So if his fees go north of that $25 million, it's got to
come out of the estate, right?
A. It——yes.
Q. And many of the lawsuits that you've filed have subject
matter that overlaps with the allegations in this case,
correct?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well——
MR. FERGENSON: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: You'll step up, please.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
(At the sidebar)
THE COURT: So why would that be irrelevant?
MR. FERGENSON: We believe it is excluded under Rule
403. He's not charged with bankruptcy fraud, one; two, it goes
well beyond the scope of the direct; three, it is improper to
try and impugn the criminal prosecution and the allegations
we've brought by trying to impugn the bankruptcy trustee when
there's already been significant cross on the fact that
Mr. Kwok has said he's an agent of the CCP. You can't use the
bankruptcy trustee's actions and their similarity to our
allegations and overlap to try and make some kind of
insinuation about our case and that this is improper. Excluded
under 403.
MR. KAMARAJU: I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if he was
done.
No, I'm merely asking it to set up a bias cross with
respect to this particular——
THE COURT: A what?
MR. KAMARAJU: A cross on bias, your Honor, with
respect to this particular witness. The line of questions are
going to go: There's an overlap; you're aware that the
government could ask to pause your case? In fact, you
voluntarily paused your case, and you voluntarily paused your
case so as not to interfere with the criminal case, including,
in particular, to not have any of the government's witnesses
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4139
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
deposed by Mr. Guo. And he did that, right? And they've said
that in public filings. And so it's just bias, like you would
cross anybody else, like you would cross a cooperator, you took
all these steps to help the government, that's all.
THE COURT: What is the nature of the bias?
MR. KAMARAJU: The nature of the bias is that he and
his firm get paid the longer the bankruptcy case goes on, and
as long as they continue to work on it. If the government
pauses it, right, if the government takes any action, then he
doesn't get those fees. It's that simple. His fees are
basically dependent on them.
MR. FERGENSON: Your Honor, Mr. Kamaraju moved for the
stay of the bankruptcy, not the government.
MR. KAMARAJU: No, no. But he also moved for the stay
of the bankruptcy case. That's my point. I'm not bringing out
that we moved for the stay, I'm bringing out that he moved for
a stay.
MR. FERGENSON: How is that bias?
THE COURT: He's somehow now interested?
MR. KAMARAJU: If they said in a public filing, I am
voluntarily staying this incredibly lucrative case that we
could be bringing because I don't want to interfere with the
government's case and I don't want the government's witnesses
to be deposed, that is a person or a firm or an entity offering
to help the government in the same way that if I had 3500
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
material that a cooperator said, look, I'll go make a recording
against the co-defendant, I would be allowed to cross and be
like, look at all the efforts this person is willing to make.
It's not that dissimilar from the cross I was going to do on
Mr. Bass, who I understand is now not going to be a witness.
It's the same idea. It's just bias. It's the lengths to which
they will go to help the government.
THE COURT: Or themselves.
MR. KAMARAJU: Could be both. Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
MR. FERGENSON: If he's going to bring up the stay,
then I think we can ask on redirect about how Mr. Kwok moved to
stay the bankruptcy.
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to permit the
question.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
(Continued on next page)
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4141
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
(In open court)
THE COURT: You may continue.
MR. KAMARAJU: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you want the question to be read back?
MR. KAMARAJU: Yes, that would be great.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
(Record read)
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. One of the actions that the trustee filed is against
G|CLUBS, correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. And one of the actions the trustees filed is against ACA,
correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. One of the actions it filed is against Golden State New
York, correct? Golden Spring New York. My apologies.
A. Golden Spring, yes.
Q. Same with GTV, correct?
A. I don't recall whether GTV was named in an action.
Q. Okay. Have you ever reviewed the indictment in this case?
A. I don't recall if I read the entire indictment.
Q. Okay. Have you read some of it?
A. I believe I read some of it.
Q. Okay. Do you remember that G|CLUBS is part of the
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
indictment in this case?
A. I do not.
Q. Now are you aware that the government could seek to pause
the bankruptcy case?
A. No.
Q. Okay. The government could seek to file a motion to ask
the bankruptcy case to be stayed, right?
A. I believe any party could theoretically file that motion.
Q. Sure. So them too, right?
A. If you're referring to the government, yes.
Q. Yes. Right? And if that were successful, that would mean
that during the period of the pause, there would be no more
fees for you, right?
A. If you're referring to my firm?
Q. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. Your firm.
A. I don't know what the bankruptcy court would do during a
pause of the case. There's still administrative things that
would take place even if the bankruptcy case was paused.
THE COURT: Please speak into the microphone.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
A. There would still be administrative proceedings that would
take place even if the case was paused from the sense that no
litigation would be going on. There are still obligations,
monthly obligations of documents that have to be filed in the
case just to keep it going and alive, frankly, so——
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. So it's fair to say that your fees would be less?
A. There would be less work, yes.
Q. Right. And the same is true of Mr. Despins's firm,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now are you aware that Mr. Despins discussed the
possibility of a pause with the prosecutors?
A. I am not.
Q. Now there came a time when you and Mr. Despins filed what's
called a civil RICO complaint, right?
A. In the bankruptcy proceeding, yes.
Q. And you sued a bunch of people, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was all to seek a recovery for the estate, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And as part of that, you would actually be able to recover
triple damages, correct?
A. One of the claims would include a treble damage claim, yes.
Q. And so if you won on that, that would bring in even more
money into the estate, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So even greater than the other adversary proceedings that
you had filed, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And again, that would be more money available to pay your
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
firm's fees, right?
A. There would be more money in the estate to pay all fees and
all creditors.
Q. Okay. So that includes Mr. Despins's fees as well, right?
A. And all the other professionals in the case, yes.
Q. Sure. Everybody is getting paid from that bankruptcy,
right?
A. Yes.
MR. FERGENSON: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now almost immediately after that civil RICO case was
filed, Mr. Despins asked for it to be paused, right?
A. There was a motion filed in the bankruptcy case to pause or
stay that action, yes.
Q. Okay. And your firm filed that motion, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you review it before it was filed?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And I take for granted that you know as a lawyer you
have to be truthful to the court, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now one of the reasons that Mr. Despins told the
bankruptcy court that he wanted to stay the RICO cases was to
avoid interfering with the criminal prosecution, correct?
A. Yes.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
Q. And in particular, he told the bankruptcy court that he
wanted to avoid having to depose any of the witnesses that may
be called by the government, correct?
A. I don't recall that specific allegation in the motion, but
I do recall the statement that——that he wanted to pause that
RICO case because of this criminal proceeding.
Q. Okay. Let me see if I can help you.
MR. KAMARAJU: Can we pull that up.
Just for the witness and the parties, please.
Q. And let me know when it's on your screen, sir. Thank you.
Okay. Could you just review this paragraph just to
yourself, please.
Okay. Does that refresh your recollection about one
of the reasons being avoiding the possibility of deposing
witnesses in the criminal case?
A. Yes. This refers to staying depositions in the main
bankruptcy case, not in connection with the RICO case, which
was why I was——didn't recall that, but this is asking for
staying depositions in the main bankruptcy case.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay. Could we go to paragraph 26.
Q. Okay. Just review that.
Now if the RICO case was paused——
MR. KAMARAJU: We can take that down.
Q. If the RICO case was paused, then there would be no
depositions in that case either, correct?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. What's a deposition?
A. It's an out-of-court examination or question, questioning
of a witness under——under oath.
Q. And if there were a deposition in the RICO case, the
trustee's counsel would have an opportunity to question them,
right, the witness?
A. If it's a deposition noticed by the trustee's counsel, yes.
Q. Okay. But even if Mr. Guo's counsel noticed the
deposition, wouldn't trustee's counsel have an opportunity to
ask questions?
A. Presumably.
Q. Right. So if the trustee noticed the deposition, then
Mr. Guo's counsel would have an opportunity, correct?
MR. FERGENSON: Your Honor, are we getting into
hypotheticals? And it's also outside the scope.
THE COURT: I'll permit some exploration of this.
MR. KAMARAJU: I'm almost done, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. Let me make the question simple. In the event of a
deposition, Mr. Guo's counsel may have an opportunity to
question the witness, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would include witnesses that the government
intended to call at this trial, if they were served with a
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4147
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Cross
deposition subpoena.
MR. FERGENSON: Objection. Calls for speculation.
MR. KAMARAJU: I'd like to finish the question,
please.
THE COURT: You're not finished?
MR. KAMARAJU: I have now finished.
THE COURT: It does call for speculation, so I'm going
to sustain the objection.
MR. KAMARAJU: Okay.
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. Until that stay is lifted, there will be no depositions in
the RICO case, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And that's what Mr. Despins wanted, right?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. That's what Mr. Despins told the bankruptcy court, correct?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: I don't know if that question was
answered. You may answer.
A. It's what was included in the motion that we filed for
Mr. Despins, yes.
Q. And you're aware that's what the prosecutors want, right?
MR. FERGENSON: Objection, your Honor. He can't do
that. And that misstates the testimony.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
THE COURT: He can't know what the prosecutors want.
MR. KAMARAJU: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. FERGENSON: That's not what we want. That's fine.
THE COURT: Redirect.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Mr. Skalka, you were just asked just a moment ago questions
about the stay of the bankruptcy proceedings, the stay of the
trustee's civil RICO case. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware that Mr. Kwok moved to stay the bankruptcy
prior to the trustee making that motion?
A. Yes.
Q. And he moved actually two times to stay the bankruptcy?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's Mr. Kwok, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. That wasn't the government that made that motion, correct?
A. Correct.
THE COURT: And what do you understand the meaning of
"moved"?
THE WITNESS: There was a motion filed.
THE COURT: What do you understand is a "motion"?
THE WITNESS: It's a pleading, a document filed by a
party to ask, in this case, to stay the Chapter 11 bankruptcy
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
proceedings of the debtor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. FERGENSON: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Mr. Skalka, you were asked early on about the PAX lawsuit.
Do you remember those questions on cross?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were asked about whether, under Chinese law, there
are death sentences. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. What court was the PAX lawsuit filed in?
A. New York Supreme Court.
Q. Is that in the United States?
A. Yes.
Q. When Mr. Kwok was the subject of that lawsuit, was he in
the United States?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the New York court, where that lawsuit took place,
apply New York law?
A. Yes.
Q. Does it apply Chinese law?
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection. Calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Who is the judge?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
A. In the PAX litigation?
Q. In the PAX litigation?
A. The judge in the PAX litigation is Judge Ostrager.
Q. To your knowledge is he a member of the Chinese Communist
Party?
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE COURT: If he knows.
A. I don't know.
Q. Does he apply New York law in his cases?
A. Yes.
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection. Calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE COURT: Well, he may apply New York law and he may
apply other law, depending on what is correct in the case.
MR. FERGENSON: That's fair, your Honor. That's fair,
your Honor.
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. You were also asked questions about the timing of the PAX
lawsuit. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
MR. FERGENSON: Ms. Loftus, could we pull up Defense
Exhibit 7006.
Q. Mr. Skalka, is this the complaint that started the PAX
lawsuit?
A. It's——it's the cover sheet for the complaint, yes.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
MR. FERGENSON: The government offers Defense
Exhibit 7006.
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection, hearsay.
THE COURT: The complaint is not already in evidence?
MR. FERGENSON: No, your Honor. It's a defense
exhibit. The government is offering it.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. FERGENSON: All right. Ms. Loftus, can you show——
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Mr. Skalka, do you recall the exact details in the
complaint about what happened before the date of the filing of
this complaint?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did PAX allege happened prior to their filing this
complaint?
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection. Hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. FERGENSON: Your Honor, I may need a sidebar then.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
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4152
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
(At the sidebar)
MR. FERGENSON: So yesterday, Mr. Kamaraju objected to
my asking this question. I said, is there going to be any
cross on the fact, you know, suggesting that PAX was acting as
an agent of the Chinese Communist Party? Mr. Kamaraju said he
may ask the date. He asked the date and then he also asked:
And you're aware that date was, you know, the day before a Red
Notice was filed by the Chinese Communist Party? Or are you
aware that was the day before Miles Guo gave a Voice of America
interview? So now there's a suggestion that this complaint,
this entire lawsuit, was filed in conjunction with the Red
Notice and with the Voice of America interview. That's not
what the complaint itself even says. It talks about how they
issued demand letters two years prior, they issued demand
letters to Mr. Guo in 2015, they issued another demand letter
in 2016, and then they filed, a year before this complaint, a
proceeding in the BVI to put the entity, Shiny Times, that was
the subject of the loan, into liquidation proceedings in the
British Virgin Islands. If we're not allowed to elicit that
fact, it completely distorts the picture of what this lawsuit
was for the jury, and it will allow them to sum up in an
incredibly misleading way at summations. And I understand that
Mr. Kamaraju was eliciting those things on cross to go to
defendant's state of mind. Well, then the government can at
least show what the complaint itself that Mr. Kwok read and
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4153
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
supposedly had this state of mind that, oh, this must be a
Communist party plot, the government should be allowed to show
what that complaint actually alleged happened before the date
the complaint was filed.
THE COURT: How do you propose to elicit the
testimony?
MR. FERGENSON: I think the simplest way is just to
offer the complaint and say it could be offered for its
effect——
THE COURT: The whole thing?
MR. FERGENSON: Yeah, just offer it. It's 11 pages.
MR. KAMARAJU: There's no evidence in the record that
Mr. Guo read the complaint.
MR. FERGENSON: He filed an answer, your Honor, and he
testified that he filed an answer.
MR. KAMARAJU: So there's still no evidence that
Mr. Guo read the complaint. The fact that the lawyers filed an
answer is not evidence that Mr. Guo read the complaint, which
is in English, by the way.
Second, everything Mr. Fergenson started with was they
want to talk about the complaint for purposes of showing there
was a demand letter and there was an action in BVI and there
were these collection efforts. All of that is just for the
truth.
MR. FERGENSON: It's——
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
MR. KAMARAJU: So——excuse me. May I finish, please.
MR. FERGENSON: I'm sorry.
MR. KAMARAJU: So if they're offering it for the
truth, then obviously it's hearsay. If they're offering it for
state of mind, they would have to have some evidence that
Mr. Guo read it or saw it, which is consistent with your
Honor's prior ruling, and if they are offering it for some
other purpose, then they need to establish it. But if they
really want to get into PAX's motivations for filing it, then
call a PAX witness. But putting in a hearsay document because
they have concerns about the way we're going to sum up is not
the way the evidence works.
MR. FERGENSON: We have no objection to your Honor
instructing the jury that this document is not coming in only
for its effects.
MR. KAMARAJU: You still don't have evidence he read
it.
MR. FERGENSON: This wasn't a third-party litigation.
Mr. Guo was the defendant. This litigation was going on for
years. He was threatened to be put in jail. He filed an
answer. He was deposed. He was also served with the
complaint.
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to allow that.
(Continued on next page)
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4155
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
(In open court)
MR. FERGENSON: The government offers Defense
Exhibit 7006.
THE COURT: So the objection is overruled and the
document is admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit 7006 received in evidence)
MR. KAMARAJU: With a limiting instruction, your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. The complaint is not being offered
for the truth of the statements contained in the complaint,
only for its effect upon the reader.
MR. FERGENSON: Thank you, your Honor.
Ms. Loftus, if we could scroll down.
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Now, Mr. Skalka, could you read paragraph 1, please.
A. "This is a straightforward breach of contract case. Kwok
Ho Wan——"
Q. And you can skip the a/k/as.
A. "——a reported billionaire, and his controlled entities
borrowed millions of dollars from plaintiff Pacific Alliance
Asia Opportunity Fund L.P. ('PAX LP') but have failed to pay
any of the amount owed to PAX LP under binding written
agreements."
MR. FERGENSON: And if we could zoom out, Ms. Loftus.
Let's scroll down, please.
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4156
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
Scroll down. Keep scrolling down.
And keep scrolling down, Ms. Loftus.
Keep going, please.
You can go more quickly.
Yeah, keep going.
All right. I'm sorry. Scroll back up, please.
Sorry.
One more.
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Okay. Now towards the bottom, Mr. Skalka, do you see the
bold that says "PAX LP seeks to enforce its contractual rights
and collect amounts owed"?
A. I see that.
Q. All right. Can you read paragraph 38, please.
A. "On October 16, 2015, after the Deeds of Settlement and
Option Agreement were terminated and the 2011 Facility Letter
reverted to being in full force and effect, PAX LP sent a
written notice of demand ('the Notice of Demand') to Kwok's
address in Hong Kong, as specified under the terms of the
personal guarantee."
Q. Generally speaking, what's a notice of demand?
A. It's a——in this case, written notice of demand is a letter
demanding a full payment, or payment on an obligation or a
debt.
Q. And this was alleged to be sent in 2015, right?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
A. That's what the allegation is, yes.
Q. And is that around a year and a half before the ultimate
filing of this lawsuit in April 2017?
A. Yes.
MR. FERGENSON: Let's zoom out, please. Let's scroll
down.
Next page.
Q. Can you read paragraph 40.
A. "Kwok never responded to the Notice of Demand."
Q. Can you read paragraph 41, please.
A. "On February 19, 2016, PAX LP sent a letter to Shiny Times
demanding payment of $82,219,404.08 due and owing under the
2011 Facility Letter ('the Shiny Times Demand Letter'), which
represented the principal plus contractual interest of
15 percent per annum calculated up to the date of the Shiny
Times Demand Letter."
Q. And February 2016, is that over a year before the ultimate
filing of this lawsuit in New York court?
A. Yes.
MR. FERGENSON: Can we zoom out, please.
Q. Now can you read the first sentence of paragraph 43,
please.
A. "When Shiny Times did not respond, PAX LP submitted an
application to court in the British Virgin Islands (BVI) on
February 29, 2016, seeking the appointment of joint liquidators
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
to put Shiny Times, which is a BVI corporation, into
liquidation. The application alleged that (i)——"
Q. And that's good, Mr. Skalka.
Is that also over a year before this New York State
court action was filed?
A. It's about a year.
MR. FERGENSON: All right. We can take that down.
Q. You were asked questions about whether——well, withdrawn.
MR. FERGENSON: If we could pull up, Ms. Loftus,
Government Exhibit 1407 and go to page 7.
And if we could zoom on the bottom portion, Part 7.
Q. Mr. Skalka, do you see the first sentence says, "I have
examined this petition, and I declare under penalty of perjury
that the information provided is true and correct"?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any exception in this document for being targeted
by the CCP?
A. No.
Q. If you're targeted by the CCP, do the perjury laws not
apply?
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection. Calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Does this document say that the perjury laws do not apply
if you're targeted by the CCP?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
MR. KAMARAJU: Document speaks for itself.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now, Mr. Skalka, you were also asked questions about the
summary judgment ruling entered by Justice Ostrager?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were asked questions about how G|CLUBS didn't pay
that fine, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Or, I'm sorry, that judgment.
And you were also asked the same about the contempt
fines, right?
A. Yes.
Q. You were asked how G|CLUBS didn't pay that and the Himalaya
Exchange didn't pay that, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Who lent the money for the $37 million loan that kept the
PAX litigation stayed? What was the entity?
A. Himalaya International Finance or Financial Group.
Q. Are you aware that that entity is connected to Himalaya
Exchange?
A. I believe there is a connection.
Q. By the way, do you know why Mei Guo needed a loan to pay
that money?
A. Ms. Guo's attorneys had alleged in the bankruptcy
proceeding that the only asset of HK USA was the Lady May.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2 Skalka - Redirect
Q. And do you know why Mei Guo didn't give HK USA the money
herself and instead got a loan?
A. I do not.
MR. KAMARAJU: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. FERGENSON: I'm just asking if he knows. He
doesn't know.
Q. Do you know why the initial loan agreement said ACA
Capital?
MR. KAMARAJU: Same objection.
A. I don't.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Do you know why it was changed to Himalaya International
Financial Group?
MR. KAMARAJU: Same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. You were also asked what happened ultimately to that
$37 million. Why did the bankruptcy judge find it was part of
the bankruptcy estate?
A. The judge made a finding that HK USA was an alterego of the
debtor and therefore the——made a finding that the Lady May was
property of Mr. Kwok's bankruptcy estate and the funds in
escrow were property of Mr. Kwok's bankruptcy estate.
Q. You were asked several questions about the Office of the
U.S. Trustee, Department of Justice.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO2
THE COURT: One moment. It's time for our break.
MR. FERGENSON: Oh.
THE COURT: So members of the jury, don't discuss the
case amongst yourselves. Don't permit others to discuss it in
your presence. Don't read or watch or listen to anything from
any source that touches upon the subject matter of this case.
Sir, you can step out. Don't discuss your testimony.
(Jury not present)
(Witness not present)
THE COURT: You may be seated.
And we'll have a sidebar.
(Page 4162 SEALED by order of the Court)
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4162
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO3 Skalka - Redirect
AFTERNOON SESSION
12:00 p.m.
THE COURT: Please have the jurors brought in.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Please be seated. Remember, sir, that
you're still under oath, and you may continue the redirect.
MR. FERGENSON: Thank you.
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Mr. Skalka, you were also asked questions on cross about
the Office of the U.S. Trustee and bankruptcy proceeding?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that also the same or a different office from my office?
A. It is different. Their role is to oversee the
administration of bankruptcy in every federal district in the
country.
Q. You also were asked on cross about how targeting by the CCP
and issues related to that made this bankruptcy unique. You
remember those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said I guess that could be one factor about what
made it unique. What were some of the other factors that made
this bankruptcy unique?
A. The fact that the debtor indicated that he had virtually no
assets on his bankruptcy schedule, but listed over $373 million
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4163
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO3 Skalka - Recross
of liability. It was unusual to me in my experience as a
bankruptcy attorney. As I noted I believe earlier, the fact
that there were protest associated with the bankruptcy case was
unique. To be frank, most bankruptcy cases are fairly dry.
They're disputes over money, so it's not uncommon to see a lot
of debts and disputes over how those debts are going to be
paid; but usually you don't see protests and bankruptcy courts
getting involved with providing restraining orders and First
Amendment right claim in a bankruptcy proceeding. That's
unusual.
MR. FERGENSON: No further questions.
THE COURT: Recross.
MR. KAMARAJU: Thank you, your Honor, just briefly.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. Can we have DX7006, please. This is a complaint, right,
sir?
A. Yes.
Q. The complaint filed by PAX?
A. Yes.
Q. So PAX decides what to put in here, right?
A. It's my understanding.
Q. And these are PAX's allegations, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you have no way of knowing if any of what's in here is
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO3 Skalka - Recross
true, right?
A. I know they're allegations, and I know what the court
found. That's my knowledge.
Q. An allegation is just an allegation, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Guo denied the allegation, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And this complaint was filed online, correct?
A. It was filed with the New York County clerk electronically,
but online, not necessarily on the internet. What do you mean
by on line, I guess?
Q. Not to get too inside baseball. When you file something
electronically, you go on the internet and file it, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Can we pull up DX Stip 0001, please. Can we go down. You
see paragraph five there?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you read the first sentence?
A. To carry out some of the objectives of Fox Hunt in 2017,
the PRC government tasked a specially designated group of
operatives, (the group) with discrediting and harassing
individuals, including Mr. Guo, by using interactive computer
services and electronic communication systems.
Q. We can pull that down. 2017, that was the year that the
PAX litigation started, right?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO3 Skalka - Recross
A. Yes.
Q. Can we go to the next paragraph. Can you read the second
sentence, please?
A. In May 2017, the PRC government sent four undeclared agents
from the PRC Ministry of State Security (MSS) to the United
States to attempt to cause Mr. Guo's coerced repatriation to
the PRC as part of a Fox Hunt initiative.
Q. May 2017, that's the month after PAX filed its litigation,
right?
A. I think it was a couple months after. I believe it was
filed in February of 2017.
MR. KAMARAJU: No further questions.
MR. FERGENSON: Just one question.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FERGENSON:
Q. Mr. Skalka, are you a Chinese spy?
A. No.
MR. KAMARAJU: One last one.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAMARAJU:
Q. If you were a Chinese spy, would you tell us?
MR. FERGENSON: Calls for speculation, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step out, and the government may
call its next witness.
(Witness excused)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO3 Foley- Direct
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor. The government
calls Owen Foley.
OWEN FOLEY,
called as a witness by the Government,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it.
THE WITNESS: Owen Foley, first name O-W-E-N, last
name F-O-L-E-Y.
THE COURT: Mr. Foley, I need you to speak right into
the microphone.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may inquire.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Foley.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work at the United States Attorney's office for the
Southern District of New York.
Q. What is your position at the U.S. Attorney's office for the
Southern District of New York?
A. I'm a paralegal specialist.
Q. What are your duties and responsibilities as a paralegal
specialist?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO3 Foley- Direct
A. Assisting the Assistant United States Attorney with
discovery legal process, trial preparation.
Q. How long have you been a paralegal at the U.S. Attorney's
office for the Southern District of New York?
A. Just about two years.
Q. Besides your testimony today and preparation for that
testimony, did you have any involvement in this case?
A. I did not, no.
Q. In advance of your testimony, were you asked to review a
government exhibit and verify the accuracy of information in
it?
A. I was.
Q. And when were you asked to review that summary chart?
A. Roughly a week ago.
Q. Did you review the summary chart for accuracy?
A. I did.
Q. Is the summary chart based on voluminous records?
A. It is.
Q. Were those records provided to you by the government?
A. They were.
Q. What types of exhibits generally speaking is the summary
chart based on?
A. They were loan payments.
Q. Who decided which exhibits you reviewed and what
information to include in the summary chart?
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A. You did.
Q. Did you note corrections to the summary chart to make sure
that it was accurate after your review?
A. I did.
Q. Was the chart revised to reflect your corrections?
A. It was.
Q. After the chart was revised, is it now accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. Just to be clear, Mr. Foley, did you review all of the
evidence gathered in the government's case here or just the
summary chart and the exhibits it's based on?
A. Just the summary chart and the exhibits that it's based on.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if you could please put up GX
Stip 8 which is in evidence. It's a stipulation between the
parties.
This reads on page two that the parties stipulate and
agree that Government Exhibits 1601 through 1849 were lawfully
obtained by the government and are authentic business records
of the entity indicated on the face of the exhibit that were
made at or near the time by or from information transmitted by
a person with knowledge of the matter set forth in the record.
Such records were kept in the course of a regularly conducted
activity, and it was the regular practice of that entity to
make the records.
On the next page please, Ms. Loftus. GX Stip 8 also
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indicates that government exhibits listed in this stipulation,
including Government Exhibit 1601 through 1849, may be received
as evidence. And your Honor, pursuant to Stip 8, at this time
the government offers the following government exhibits for
admission. Government Exhibits 1628, 1630, 1631, 1632, 1634,
1636, 1637, 1639, 1643, 1644, and 1646.
MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.
THE COURT: They are admitted.
(Government's Exhibits 1628, 1630, 1631, 1632, 1634,
1636, 1637, 1639, 1643, 1644, and 1646 received in evidence)
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Ms. Loftus, we can put that down, and if you could please
put up for the witness what's been marked as Government Exhibit
Z-13.
Mr. Foley, do you recognize the document in front of
you?
A. I do.
Q. Is that the summary chart you reviewed in preparation for
your testimony today?
A. It is.
Q. Did you review all of the exhibits this summary chart is
based on?
A. Yes.
Q. Are those exhibits indicated by exhibit number on this
chart?
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A. Yes.
Q. Is the chart accurate based on your review?
A. It is.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers
Government Exhibit Z-13.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, if I may have one moment?
MS. MURRAY: Could we just have a moment, please, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Are you ready?
MS. MURRAY: We just need another moment, your Honor.
Thank you very much.
THE COURT: Okay.
Q. Mr. Foley, if you could take a look at the document that's
on your screen. This is marked for identification as
Government Exhibit Z-13, and I'm going to give it to defense
counsel to look at it as well.
Is this the summary chart that you reviewed in
preparation for your testimony?
A. Yes.
MS. MURRAY: Defense counsel is reviewing it before I
move to admit. At this time, the government moves to admit
Government Exhibit Z-13.
MR. SCHIRICK: No objection your Honor.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit Z-13 received in evidence)
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BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. If we could please publish.
Mr. Foley, looking at this summary chart, what is the
title of this chart?
A. G/Club loan agreements and select investments.
Q. And generally speaking, what type of agreements are
summarized in this exhibit Z-13?
A. Various loans ranging from 1 million to 60 million U.S.
dollars.
Q. And looking at the second column here, who is the lender of
the majority of these loans that are reflected on Z-13?
A. G/Club Operations, LLC.
Q. Mr. Foley, do you know what G/Club Operations, LLC is.
A. I do not.
Q. Looking at the borrower column, what is the borrower listed
as reflected for the majority of the loans?
A. Majority of them are G/Club International Limited.
Q. Mr. Foley, do you know what G/Club International Limited
is?
A. I do not.
Q. I'd like to look at the various different fields that are
reflected in this exhibit. Starting on the left most column,
what information is reflected there for the loans that are
summarized here?
A. The left most column is the date of the loan.
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Q. And then the next column, what is that information?
A. The lender.
Q. The third column, what does that indicate?
A. The lender signatory.
Q. And looking at rows two and three, is there --
THE COURT: What does signatory mean?
THE WITNESS: The name signed on the loan.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
Q. Looking at rows two and three, there's no lender signatory
listed there, do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Going to the next column borrower, what information is
reflected there?
A. The borrower was the name of the borrower listed in the
lease agreement in the underlying documents.
Q. And then the next column, what individuals' names are
reflected there, if any?
A. The borrower signatory.
Q. And then the following column is titled fund receiver, what
information does that reflect from the loan agreements?
A. The name of the individual or organization that was
designated as the fund receiver in the loan agreements.
Q. In the following two columns first there's amount and then
currency. Can you explain what information is reflected there?
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A. The amount was the amount listed on the underlying loan
agreement, and the currency was the currency of that amount. A
majority are U.S. dollars. There are payments for GPB and CHF
as well.
Q. And finally the right most column, does that reflect the
government exhibit numbers of the supporting documents?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. We can take this down for a moment, Ms. Loftus.
I'd like to look at one of those underlying loan
agreements, Mr. Foley, and then, we'll look at the chart.
Ms. Loftus, if you could please pull up GXGC-515, and zoom in
on the text portion please.
Mr. Foley, what is the name of the entity listed at
the top of this document?
A. Hamilton Digital Assets FD SP.
Q. And do you know what Hamilton Digital Assets is?
A. I do not.
Q. What information does this reflect the first bold entry
here?
A. The transfer is from G/Club Operations LLC.
Q. And what is the transfer to based on this document?
A. G/Club International Limited.
Q. And the name of the fund?
A. Hamilton Digital Assets FD SP.
Q. Now looking at the effective date of the transfer, what
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date is listed there?
A. March 6, 2021.
Q. And the next field indicates two dollar amounts with
different dates. Can you read each of those, please?
A. The first one is $20 million on May 6, 2021, and the second
is $15 million on May 13, 2021.
Q. Mr. Foley, there are two signatures on this document who is
the first one based on the typed information below the line?
A. Haoran He.
Q. And what is the title listed for Haoran He there?
A. UBO.
Q. That's on behalf of which party to this agreement?
A. The transferor.
Q. The next signature, Mr. Foley, what's the typed name for
that one?
A. Haoran He.
Q. By what title?
A. Director.
Q. That's on behalf of what entity to this agreement?
A. The transferee.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please pull up alongside Z-13. If
we could focus in on the second and third rows of Z-13. It's
fine if it kind of overlaps.
Mr. Foley, looking at these entries -- is there any
way to make it larger, Ms. Loftus.
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Looking at these entries, the second and third entries
here on Z-13, do those reflect the information that we just
looked at in the legal agreement in GXGC-515?
A. Yes.
Q. And looking at the dates listed here, the first date in the
zoomed out portion is May 6, 2201, what is the dollar amount
that's listed for that particular entry?
A. 20 million U.S. dollars.
Q. And looking at the document on the left, GXGC-515, where do
we see that information on the loan agreement?
A. In the fifth bolded section under amount of transfer.
Q. And same question with respect to the second row that's
highlighted from GX-Z-13 here, what is the date listed for that
entry?
A. May 13, 2021.
Q. And the dollar amount associated with that transfer?
A. 15 million U.S. dollars.
Q. Where do we see that in the source document GXGC-515?
A. Under the section of the amount of the transfer.
Q. And looking at the portion of GXZ-13, the parties that are
listed here for fund receiver -- and, Ms. Loftus, perhaps we
can zoom out and zoom in including the header.
Fund receiver for these entries are listed as Hamilton
Digital Assets FD SP, where do we see that information
reflected in the loan agreement that's on the left?
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A. Beneath the third bolded section that says name of the
fund.
Q. And then looking all the way to the right, Mr. Foley, the
GX number that's listed for those two entries, GXGC-515, is
that the government exhibit number for the source document that
we're seeing on the left of our screen?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Loftus, we can take up 515 and leave up Z-13.
Mr. Foley, generally speaking, the exercise that we
just went through, is that the process that you undertook to
verify the accuracy of the information in Z-13?
A. It is.
Q. If we could just read through some of the entries on this
chart, Mr. Foley.
So starting with the first entry, what was the date of
that loan agreement?
A. January 15, 2021.
Q. Who was the lender?
A. G/Club Operation, LLC.
Q. Who was the borrower for that loan?
A. Jovial Century International Limited.
Q. And what individual signed that loan agreement on behalf of
Jovial century International limited?
A. Haoran He.
Q. And who was listed in that loan agreement as the fund
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receiver?
A. Fiesta Property Developments, LTD.
Q. And what was the amount and the currency for that loan?
A. It was 10 million GBP.
Q. Do you know what GBP stands for?
A. I do not.
Q. Ms. Loftus, could we please pull up GXGC-544. That's the
source document for this entry. If we can't do that, let's go
back to Z-13. If we could zoom in on the text portion so it's
a bit larger, please.
Mr. Foley, on this document on the bottom left there,
do you see kind of a key that indicates what italic indicate on
this summary chart?
A. Yes.
Q. What do the italics indicate?
A. The loan was not fully executed.
Q. What does that mean not fully executed?
A. It was missing one or more of the signatures.
Q. And looking at the entries on this summary chart, are the
italics for the execution status of the loan documents, are
those listed in the GX column on the far right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the loans that are reflected on this summary chart,
Mr. Foley, what was the total US dollar and/or other currency
amount of loans that were fully executed based on the exhibits
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you reviewed?
A. Total was 110 million U.S. dollars and 10 million GBP.
Q. And what was the total of the loans reflected on this chart
that were not fully executed either missing one or both
signatures?
A. 192 million U.S. dollars and 10 million CHF.
Q. Do you know what CHF stands for?
A. I do not.
Q. And looking, Mr. Foley, at the next box, the total combined
for all of the loans reflected on this chart, what is the total
U.S. dollar amount and the total amount additionally in GBP and
CHF?
A. 302 million U.S. dollars, 10 million GBP and 10 million
CHF.
Q. Focusing again on those first, or the second and third
entry that we looked at the document for the Hamilton Digital
Assets, Ms. Loftus, if we could please pull up GXSCB-13 and go
to the second page. If we could zoom in on the text portion,
please.
Mr. Foley, have you ever seen this before?
A. I have not.
Q. What is the entity name listed on the top left here?
A. Hamilton Digital Assets FD SP.
Q. Looking on the right, what is the text that's indicated on
the right of this government exhibit?
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A. U.S. dollar transactions from January 1, 2021 to January
18, 2022.
Q. Mr. Foley, the way you read the second date there, can you
explain why you read it in that manner?
A. It's date, month, year.
Q. Ms. Loftus, focusing on the first two lines here.
Mr. Foley, do you see that first entry, can you read
the transaction date and the value date?
A. The transaction date was May 6, 2021 and the value was 20
million U.S. dollars.
Q. And what is listed under payment receipt -- excuse me,
description?
A. Payment receipt G/Club Operations, LLC.
Q. Mr. Foley, same question for the second line there, what is
the transaction date listed?
A. May 13, 2021.
Q. What's the description of that particular transaction?
A. Payment receipt G/Club Operations, LLC.
Q. And then looking in the credit column, what is the amount
of that transaction?
A. 15 million U.S. dollars.
Q. So let's go back please, Ms. Loftus, to Z-13.
Mr. Foley, the information we just saw on that bank
record, is that the same information reflected in the second
and third row of this summary chart?
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A. It is.
Q. I'd like to look at one other example with you. If we
could look a few rows down. There's an entry on June 23, 2021.
Do you see that, Mr. Foley?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you read the lender for that particular transaction and
the lender signatory?
A. The lender is G/Club Operations LLC and the lender
signatory is Limarie Reyes Molinaris.
Q. And what is the borrower and the borrower signatory for
that entry?
A. The borrower is G/Club International Limited and the
borrower signatory is Haoran He.
Q. What's the fund receiver listed for this particular loan?
A. Yieldesta LP.
Q. Do you know what Yieldesta is?
A. I do not.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we can pull up Government Exhibit 1639. If
we could go to the next page, please.
Mr. Foley looking, at -- if we could zoom in on the
first two items on this page, please. Looking at item one,
what is listed as the dollar amount of this loan?
A. 3 million U.S. dollars.
Q. And under item two, can you read the first sentence of that
up until the words "registered address."
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A. The borrower intends to use the loan to invest in Yieldesta
LP (fund receiver) registered in Delaware USA and having its
registered address at.
Q. We can zoom out of that. Going to the first page focusing
on the top portion. Pardon, the second page.
What is the effective date of this particular loan
agreement?
A. June 21, 2021.
Q. The lender entities that are listed here?
A. G/Club Operations LLC.
Q. And the borrower entities that are listed here?
A. G/Club International Limited.
Q. Ms. Loftus, we can zoom out of that.
Finally, Mr. Foley, there's an entry on Z-13, if we
can pull that up, Ms. Loftus. It's on the bottom quarter of
the chart. The date is November 23, 2021. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the lender for that loan and the lender signatory?
November 23, 2021 is what we're looking at.
A. The lender is G/Club Operations LLC, and the lender
signatory is Limarie Reyes Molinaris.
Q. And the borrower and the signatory for the borrower to that
loan?
A. The borrower is G/Club International Limited, and the
borrower signatory is Haoran He.
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Q. And what is the dollar amount of that loan from G/Club
Operations LLC to G/Club International Limited?
A. 50 million U.S. dollars.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please go to Government Exhibit
MER-204 and go to row 135.
Mr. Foley, have you ever seen this document before?
A. No, I have not.
Q. There are some column titles along the top row one in this
document. Do you see the title for the column B entity?
A. Yes.
Q. What is listed as the entity for the row that's highlighted
row 135?
A. G/Club International Limited.
Q. And what is the date listed?
A. December 2, 2021.
Q. What type of transaction does this reflect?
A. A withdrawal.
Q. And what is the dollar amount of that withdrawal?
A. 50 million.
Q. Thank you, Ms. Loftus. We can go back to Z-13 one more
time.
Mr. Foley, on this exhibit there are a couple of
asterisks that are indicated and some text on the bottom left.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
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Q. Is that information that's reflected in the source loan
documents that you reviewed?
A. It is.
Q. And does that indicate that certain of these entries
reflect amendments to other entries that are the loan chart?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Foley, looking at the last entry as an example,
borrower and borrower signatory are listed as Quiang Guo. Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who that individual is?
A. I do not.
MS. MURRAY: May I have a moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
Q. Mr. Foley, aside from your testimony today, do you have any
knowledge of any facts in this case?
A. I do not.
Q. Did you have any involvement in the government's
investigation in this case beyond reviewing the summary chart
and the underlying exhibits for accuracy?
A. No, I did not.
MS. MURRAY: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross examination.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
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BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Foley.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. You testified that you're a paralegal with the U.S.
Attorney's office?
A. Correct.
Q. That the government lawyer first asked you to testify in
this case just about a week ago, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you didn't really know anything about this case before
the folks sitting at the government table asked you to testify,
fair?
A. Correct.
Q. And you didn't do any paralegal work for the folks sitting
at the government's table in connection with this case?
A. I did not, no.
Q. And you didn't investigate any of the loans or investments
that we just -- or that you just went through in the chart,
fair?
A. Fair.
Q. And so really the only thing that you know is what I think
we sort of covered on direct is what the government lawyers
showed you, fair?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, how many times did you meet with the government
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lawyers before you testified here today?
A. Two to three times.
Q. Including this morning?
A. Not this morning, no.
Q. Yesterday?
A. Briefly maybe.
Q. Fair enough. Now, the chart GXZ-13 that you just looked at
a few moments ago, you didn't make that chart, right?
A. No, I did not, no.
Q. Who made it?
A. AUSA Julie Murray.
Q. And how many drafts of this draft were there?
A. I'm not aware of how many drafts there were before it was
given to me.
Q. Unfair question. How many drafts are you aware of?
A. Three.
Q. And you were only asked to review the chart for accuracy
based on the information that you were given, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And is it fair to say that you were only given the
documents that showed up in the far right-hand column of that
chart?
A. Correct.
Q. And if we could just pull up the chart for reference
briefly. Just to be clear for the jury, when I said the
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columns in the far right column, that's the GX column, right?
A. Correct.
Q. That's all you had access to?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, as a result, you didn't really review any additional
G/Club document that might have been related to these loans,
fair?
A. Fair, just the items in the far right column.
Q. You didn't have access to a review, for example, of any
related corporate resolutions?
A. No.
Q. Or any related email correspondence?
A. No.
Q. Or any other documents that may have explained what the
reasons or purpose of any of the transactions were, right?
A. No.
Q. And you also didn't review any bank records; is that fair
too?
A. No.
Q. Is it accurate to say you didn't review any bank records
just to be clear?
A. Just the loan records here.
Q. Now, we'll just go back to the chart here briefly. At the
top the title reads G/Club loan agreements and select
investments, right?
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A. Correct.
Q. And select investments withdrawn.
The "select investments" that are referred to in the
title in this chart, those were selected by the prosecutors,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So it's not all investments, right, as far as you know?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. In any event, the chart says select investments?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to clarify one thing that I think you testified to
on direct just to be clear. I believe you may have testified
that the documents that you looked at were loan payments.
Now I think we just cleared up that you didn't really
look at any payments, right?
A. They were loan agreements.
Q. Loan agreements. You didn't look at bank records, so you
don't know whether there were actually any payments related to
these loan agreements, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Just to be clear, we're not talking about payments when we
looked at this schedule?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. I'll move on. Now, there are two separate G/Club entities
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listed in this chart; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. G/Club Operations?
A. Yes.
Q. If we're focusing on the first row under lender, and then
there's G/Club International Limited, for example, on the July
26, 2021 entry, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And those are different entities, right?
A. They have different names.
Q. As far as you know different entities?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now, the loans for both of these entities are put together
in the same chart though, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if we could just highlight the first row the January
15, 2021 row.
Now, with the exception of row one that we're looking
at here, for every loan that this chart says that G/Clubs
Operations made, G/Clubs International is the borrower; is that
right?
And I want you to take a second to look at it closely
to make sure that you understand.
A. Sorry. Could you repeat the question one more time.
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Q. Sure. And I think if we move that up so the witness can
take a look at the chart. Can you see the balance of the chart
here?
A. Yes.
Q. So the question is, for every loan made by G/Clubs
operations, G/Clubs International is the borrower?
A. That is correct.
Q. And to your understanding is G/Club International the sole
member of G/Clubs Operations?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Well, let's see if we can pull up GX1630. If we can go to
page two, please.
Now, GX1630 is among the documents that you reviewed
in preparing this chart, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And if we can please zoom in on the top where it says
lender and borrower, if we can just focus on the whereas clause
that's in the middle there under recitals.
Do you see there at the top where it says, Whereas the
borrower is lender's sole member?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that indicate to you that the borrower here G/Club
International is the sole member of G/Clubs Operations?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor, document speaks
for itself.
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THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Do you see that there?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the sole member means that G/Club International owns
G/Club Operations, right?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm asking his understanding. He put
together the chart.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, that misrepresent his
testimony. He verified the accuracy of the chart. He did not
prepare it. This is beyond direct.
MR. SCHIRICK: I didn't characterize his testimony.
I'm asking his understanding.
THE COURT: Do you understand?
THE WITNESS: Do I understand what the borrower is the
lender's sole member means?
THE COURT: Is that the question?
Q. I'm asking if he understands that that means that G/Clubs
International owns G/Clubs Operation as the sole member,
there's no other members?
A. I have no way of verifying that.
Q. Do you know what "member" means in the context of a limited
liability corporation?
A. Not in this context, no.
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Q. So you reading what we just reviewed on GX1630, that
doesn't mean anything to you about the ownership of the
entities?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Now, if we go to -- I'll move on from this. If we can
please go to pull up -- actually, you know what, let's do this
quickly.
If we can go back to 1630 and scroll to page two.
We're going to go to GC-544. Again, Mr. Foley, this is one of
the documents that your reviewed in connection with the chart?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. And now this is called a facility agreement. Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's entered into between three entities, G/Club
Operations, Jovial Century International Limited and Fiesta
Property Developments. You see that?
A. Correct.
Q. If we can scroll down to page two under parties, and we can
see here that the lender is G/Clubs Operations?
A. Correct.
Q. And the borrower is Jovial Century International, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And if we go to the top of the -- if we go down a little
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bit further, the fund receiver is Fiesta Property Development
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now if we scroll down to the background section, you see
the background section?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says there, the borrower is the 100 percent
shareholder of lender, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that mean to you that Jovial, which is the borrower,
is the 100 percent owner of G/Clubs Operation?
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, objection. The document
speaks for itself.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. We'll keep reading here. The next sentence says, the
ultimate beneficial owner of the borrower is the same as that
of the fund receiver. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what ultimate beneficial owner means?
A. Not in this context.
Q. I believe you testified on direct that Mr. He was the
ultimate beneficial owner of one of the entities?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, mischaracterizes his
testimony.
THE COURT: Sustained.
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Q. The relationship between and amongst the entities listed in
this chart, if any, isn't displayed in the chart; is that fair?
A. Just the relationship of lender and receiver.
Q. So, in other words, just to be clear, in other words to the
extent that some or more than one of these entities owns the
other entities or has an interest in the other entities, that's
not reflected in the chart?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it also true that the terms of the loan agreements are
not reflected in this chart?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, if we just go back to the chart GXZ-13.
Now, is it fair to say that with the exception of the
first entry in this chart for which the underlying agreement we
just reviewed, is that fair, we just reviewed that underlying
agreement?
A. Yes.
Q. With the exception of that entry and agreement, this chart
does not reflect any of the underlying agreements between the
borrower and the fund receiver?
MS. MURRAY: Objection to form, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Does the chart, apart from the first entry, reflect any
relationship between the borrower and the fund receiver?
MS. MURRAY: Object to form. Again, I'm not sure what
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the question is.
Q. I'll back it up. So the chart reflects a relationship
between the lender and the borrower, right, like it
characterizes one entity as the lender and it characterizes
another as a borrower?
A. Correct.
Q. It's reflecting a relationship between the two entities?
MS. MURRAY: Objection to the follow-up question about
the relationship.
THE COURT: So you can take the questions separately.
He answered yes to the characterization of one party as the
lender and the other as the borrower. Now you can ask the
relationship question.
Q. Sure. One column shows that a certain set of entities is
the lender and the other column shows that the other set of
entities is a borrower, fair?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you agree with me that that means that the chart
reflects the nature of the relationship between them as to the
transactions listed here?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if we move to the right with this chart, the
relationship between the borrower entity in that column and the
relationship between the fund receiver entity is not reflected
in this chart, right?
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MS. MURRAY: Objection to form again.
THE COURT: If you know you may answer.
A. I'm not sure what the relationship between the borrower and
fund receiver is.
Q. Right. The chart doesn't say what the relationship is
between the borrower and fund receiver is?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm just clarifying the
witness's answer. That's all.
THE COURT: You're asking the question a second time.
That's what you're doing.
Q. For example, you can't tell from this chart why the fund
receiver, again apart from the first entry, why the fund
receiver received the funds or why the borrower may have
engaged in a transaction with the fund receiver, right?
MS. MURRAY: Calls for speculation.
THE COURT: You can ask him what the document states.
Is that what you're asking?
MR. SCHIRICK: I believe that's what I asked, your
Honor, whether one can tell from the chart.
THE COURT: Well, that's a different question. You're
asking whether a person can interpret the chart to mean a
certain thing.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I believe he testified to
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the creation of this chart. I'm just asking whether he can
tell, the person who helped create it, what the relationship is
between the fund receiver and the borrower.
MS. MURRAY: Again, your Honor, mischaracterizes
Mr. Foley's testimony and his role. He did not create the
chart.
THE COURT: He did not create the chart.
MR. SCHIRICK: But he's familiar with the chart.
THE COURT: Yes, to the extent of his limited role.
MR. SCHIRICK: Sure. Your Honor, I think it's fair to
ask whether given his role in helping to work on this chart
whether he can tell something that maybe I can't tell from it.
THE COURT: Well, you're asking him to interpret the
chart.
MR. SCHIRICK: As someone who helped create it,
someone who had a hand in generating.
THE COURT: Yes, he played a role in generating the
chart. Were you asked to interpret the chart?
THE WITNESS: No, just verify for accuracy.
THE COURT: Move on.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Is it fair to say that there are no agreements between the
entities listed as borrowers and the entities listed as
receivers or you just don't know?
A. I do not know.
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Q. So if there were other contracts that govern the
relationship as entities listed as borrower and an entity
listed as fund receiver, that's just something you don't know
about, right?
A. I only reviewed the underlying exhibits listed on the
right-hand side.
Q. And the government gave you those underlying exhibits,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now I like to draw your attention to the second and third
rows of the chart. The second row, if we can just highlight
briefly is dated May 6, 2021, and the third row is dated May
13, 2021?
A. Correct.
Q. And in both of these rows, the lender is G/Clubs
Operations, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And there is no lender signatory indicated in the chart,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. And the fund receiver is Hamilton Digital Asset FD SP,
right?
A. Correct.
Q. And the first entry is for 20 million?
A. Yes.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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Q. And the second entry is for 15?
A. Yes.
Q. Can we please pull up GXGC-515. If we can blow up the
relevant portion of that.
Now, it doesn't say anywhere on this document that
this is a loan, right?
A. No, it does not.
Q. It doesn't say borrower here anywhere, right?
A. No, it doesn't.
Q. Doesn't say lender here anywhere?
A. It does not.
Q. This is a letter of direction, right?
A. Correct.
Q. But this is included in the chart that we looked at labeled
loans, right?
A. Yes, I believe it was labeled loans and select investment.
Q. Is there anything on the face of this document that we're
looking at right now which was included as an underlying
exhibit to the chart that indicates that this transaction was a
loan?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered, your Honor.
MR. SCHIRICK: I don't think I asked that particular
question.
THE COURT: Sir, do you hold a license to practice law
in the state of New York?
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THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
THE COURT: Don't ask him legal questions.
Q. If we could just hold onto this document, but also bring up
alongside it Government Exhibit 1630 and go to the last page,
the signature page if we could. It may be the second to last
page.
Now, this is another one of the documents, 1630,
that's included as a source document for the chart?
A. Correct.
Q. And you see here on the signature line it says lender
G/Club Operations?
A. Yes.
Q. And on the other signature line it says borrower G/Club
International?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you don't see similar words on the other exhibit
GXGC-515, right?
A. No.
Q. And we can take that down. Thank you. And if we could
please go back to the chart GXZ-13. If we can go to the entry
dated July 21, 2021.
This list the lender as G/Club Operations. I'm sorry,
the July 21 entry, not 26. So this shows that G/Club
Operations is the lender, right?
A. Correct.
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Q. And the borrower is G/Club International?
A. Yes.
Q. And borrower signatory is Mr. He?
A. Yes.
Q. And the fund receiver is Himalaya International Clearing
Limited, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the amount is for $25 million, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And this row summarizes the source document GXGC-221,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. If we can just please go quickly to GXGC-221. If we can go
to page four of the pdf which is the first page of the
agreement.
This is a loan agreement between G/Club Operations and
G/Club International, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if we can just go to the second to last page of this,
the signature page.
And this I believe you testified on direct that there
were some agreements that didn't have -- withdrawn.
You testified on direct that there were some
agreements that weren't fully executed, right?
A. Correct.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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Q. And is this one of those?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if we can go back to the beginning of the document to
the Whereas clauses, and we can just focus on the second
whereas clause.
It says, Subject to the terms of this agreement,
lender will loan $25 million to borrower, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says, Whereas for efficiency purpose and pursuant to
borrower's request, lender will send the loan proceeds directly
to the Himalayan International Clearing on borrower's behalf.
You see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let's go back to the summary chart GXZ-13. And if we
go down to the entry dated July 27, 2021. There's that little
asterisk there. You see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And if we go down to the key at the bottom of the chart
that asterisk indicates the amendment. This agreement is an
amendment to the July 21, 2021 agreement?
A. Yes.
Q. We just looked at the July 21st agreement, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now let's look at the July 27 agreement, and if we can just
pull up before we look at the agreement itself, July 21 entry
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and the July 27 entry, and all the way up to the 21st entry.
And now we'll just looking at the entry for the July 21st and
July 27 entry carefully.
Is it fair to say that the only difference between
these is that there's a different fund receiver?
A. The fund receiver, the date, and the underlying government
exhibit number.
Q. Yes. Thank you. You're right. The only difference in the
terms of the loan is the fund receiver, right?
THE COURT: Here we go again. He's not an attorney.
He cannot give you legal definitions. He cannot define the
terms.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm sorry. I wasn't asking
him to define terms. I was asking him to verify that the only
difference in the entries on the chart.
THE COURT: He can read. He can tell you what is on
the chart.
Q. So the difference here is that Yieldesta is the fund
receiver, right?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Let's just pull up now the underlying exhibit which is
GX1636, if we can just blow up the recitals there, and it says,
Whereas the parties entered into the loan agreement on July 21.
You see that?
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A. Yes.
Q. And again, that's the other agreement that we looked at,
right, a second ago?
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, objection. Mr. Foley is a
summary witness and these documents speak for themselves.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. If we go down to the final whereas clause it says, The
parties wish to amend the agreement to authorize and direct the
lender to send $25 million of loan proceeds of the agreement
directly to Yieldesta instead of the Himalayan International
Clearing Limited?
MS. MURRAY: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: I haven't heard the question yet.
MR. SCHIRICK: I'm simply asking him to confirm that
I've read that correctly.
MS. MURRAY: Same objection.
THE COURT: So the document speaks for itself.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, may we have a brief
sidebar?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Continued on next page)
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(At the sidebar)
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, the last question was
merely to ask the witness if I read that correctly. Even with a
summary witness my understanding is that I'm permitted to ask
the witness if I read the document correctly. It's one of the
source documents in the chart, and I'm trying to show that
there were changes in the agreements that are not reflected in
the chart. And I'm not sure how I can do that without being
able to question the witness about what the underlying
documents are.
THE COURT: So the chart list the underlying
documents?
MR. SCHIRICK: Correct, and I'm going through them to
show that there are changes in the transactions that are not
reflected in the chart. And it goes directly to the integrity
of the chart, the reliability of the chart, which is I think is
highly relevant.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the continued objections to
documents speak for themselves is largely for efficiency. This
is a summary witness. He's testified to verifying the accuracy
of the chart. We've moved in the exhibits that support the
entries in the chart, and they are listed. So the defense can
go and look at those underlying exhibits. But Mr. Foley simply
confirm the accuracy of what's in the chart itself, and I don't
see from what Mr. Schirick is saying that the chart is
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO3 Foley - Cross
inaccurate. Based on the documents, it accurately reflects the
charts in the document.
MR. SCHIRICK: If I can respond to that, your Honor,
that is where I'm going because I believe the chart is
inaccurate. The only way I can do that and show that through a
witness is to be able to ask the witness questions about the
underlying document. I understand the government has to object
where it needs to object, but I would be through this already
if there weren't continued objections about me just trying to
establish underlying facts.
THE COURT: So he can read the title of a document.
He can read from a document, but he can't tell you what it
means.
MR. SCHIRICK: I understand. Your Honor has made that
point, and I think what I'm doing here, I haven't asked a
question. You can check the record. I have not asked a
question about what anything means. I'm simply asking him to
confirm that that information is in the underlying document.
MS. MURRAY: With respect to the particular issue that
was in the last question, I'm not clear what information
Mr. Schirick is saying is inaccurate in the chart.
MR. SCHIRICK: We haven't gotten through the cross
yet. I'm trying to elicit it through the witness, which is the
only way I have to do it.
MS. MURRAY: Sure, but looking at, for example, the
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO3 Foley - Cross
recitals that you just read and asking Mr. Foley to confirm,
what part of that language from the document are you going to
say is inaccurate in the chart itself?
MR. SCHIRICK: There are two purposes in this cross,
right, generally speaking. One is to show that there is
information that is not in the chart so that I can demonstrate
to the jury that there will be information outside of the four
corners of that document that may be relevant to interpreting
what's inside the document. I should be entitled to do that.
The second is to show that there are inaccuracies in the chart.
What you're just referring to is not in -- reading the recitals
was not to show that the document was inaccurate. It was to
show that there was other information that was not in the
chart. So those are the two purposes.
THE COURT: So the other information that's not in the
chart, there's plenty of information that's not in the chart.
There are whole documents that are not in the chart. That's
why he's a summary witness.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, if there is -- the defense
is entitled to argue that there is other information that's
relevant to --
THE COURT: You do that at summation for goodness
sake. If you want to lose the jury completely, keep it up. Go
ahead. Go ahead.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO3 Foley - Cross
(In open court)
THE COURT: All righty. Go ahead.
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.
Q. Do you see, Mr. Foley, the portion of the document that's
highlighted on your screen there?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says, Whereas the parties wish to amend the
agreement. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if we can just please pull up GXGC-221, page two, side
by side with GX-1636. Now GX -- actually, if it's possible to
switch these. If not, that's fine.
Is it fair to say based on the passage that we just
read that the document and loan agreement dated July 27, 2021
replaced the loan agreement dated July 21, 2021?
THE COURT: One moment, please.
(Pause).
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A. It's fair to say it's an amendment to.
Q. And so it changed the previous agreement, right, that's
what amendment means?
THE COURT: You're asking for a legal conclusion.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, he testified it's an
amendment.
THE COURT: That's right. He's testifying to what the
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO3 Foley - Cross
document states.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Now, if we go back to the summary chart GXZ-13 and we focus
on the two lines July 21 and July 27, 2021. Now both of those
entries are for $25 million. Is that right?
A. That is correct.
(Continued on next page)
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O6P1GUO4 Foley - Cross
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. And one of those agreements, the later agreement, changed
the earlier agreement, right, as you testified before?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. Mischaracterizes.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. I believe you testified that it amended the earlier
agreement?
MR. SCHIRICK: Those were the witness's words, I
believe.
MS. MURRAY: Yes, your Honor, which is different than
changed.
THE COURT: Amended is one word, changed is another.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay.
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. So the later agreement amended the earlier agreement, yet
we still have $25 million in the amount column for each
agreement, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. So that total calculation at the bottom of GX Z13 is
overstated by at least 25 million then, correct?
A. That I——I have no knowledge of.
Q. Isn't this double-counting?
A. I——I have no way to confirm whether or not the payments
went through.
Q. Right. Because you can't tell from this chart whether
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
there were actual transactions, right? This is just the loan
agreements themselves, just the paper.
A. This was the amount listed on the loan agreement, yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you. No further questions
at this time.
MS. MURRAY: No redirect, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may step out.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor. The government
calls Daniel Copeland.
(Witness sworn)
THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it.
THE WITNESS: My name is Daniel Copeland.
D-A-N-I-E-L, Copeland, C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D.
THE COURT: You may inquire.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
DANIEL COPELAND,
called as a witness by the Government,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Copeland.
A. Good afternoon.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. If I could ask you to pull the microphone in front of you
and speak directly into it, please.
A. Is that better?
Q. That's better. Thank you.
Mr. Copeland, how old are you?
A. I am 29.
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Q. Do you work?
A. I do.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I'm a researcher at MIT.
Q. What is your educational background?
A. I studied mechanical engineering at Vanderbilt, became
interested in medical devices, got a MD at Tufts, and then just
received a master's in mechanical engineering at MIT, where I'm
working now.
Q. Mr. Copeland, are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your wife's name?
A. Isabelle Despins.
Q. How do you spell Despins?
A. D-E-S-P-I-N-S.
Q. Does your wife work?
A. She does.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. Where does she work?
A. She works at Cambridge Public Schools, Kennedy-Longfellow
School.
Q. And what is her role at that school?
A. She is a third grade teacher in the SEI program, which is
Sheltered English Immersion.
Q. What does Sheltered English Immersion mean?
MS. SHROFF: Objection as to relevance.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
A. It means that her students speak a different language at
home, and they come to her class to learn math and other things
but primarily to learn English.
Q. And Mr. Copeland, in the 2022-2023 school year, what grade
did your wife teach?
A. Third grade.
Q. When did you get married?
A. I got married in October of 2022.
Q. What is your father-in-law's name?
A. Luc Despins.
Q. What does Luc Despins do for work?
A. He is a bankruptcy lawyer.
Q. Mr. Copeland, are you testifying today pursuant to a
subpoena that you were served by the government?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Copeland, can you describe your home in Cambridge,
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Massachusetts.
A. So we live in a five-family home, so there's five units.
Our unit is on the first——on the ground floor. It's kind of
a——a long unit, so all of the living room, dining area, kitchen
are all in one room that faces right onto the street.
Q. What type of neighborhood or area is your home located in?
A. We live in a residential neighborhood. Most houses are
kind of similar to ours, multifamily homes. Relatively dense;
maybe 10, 15 feet max between houses. And most houses don't
have front yards, they're just right on the sidewalk, the front
of the house.
Q. When did you move into that home?
A. We moved in July of 2022, before we got married.
Q. And who lives in that home with you?
A. Me, my wife, and our dog.
Q. Directing your attention to late 2022, did there come a
time when individuals appeared outside of your home in
Cambridge, Massachusetts?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the circumstances?
A. So in November of 2022, we——some protestors showed up
outside of our home. We knew at that point that they were
there related to Isabelle's dad's work. And——yeah.
Q. To that point you just made, Mr. Copeland, what type of
work did Isabelle's dad, Luc Despins do?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
A. He is a bankruptcy lawyer, but he was working appointed by
the government on a bankruptcy case.
Q. A bankruptcy case related to whom?
A. To a guy who I had not heard of before then but then had
looked up named Miles Guo.
Q. And why, if at all, is it your understanding that the
protestors who showed up at your house related to Luc Despins's
work?
A. So after——I think prior to them showing up at our
apartment, they'd showed up at Luc's work and Luc's house, so
we had kind of understood by then that they——that this has been
a pattern and that they were there because——to put pressure on
Luc and his family in order to stop working on this case for
the government.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we please put up what's
in evidence as Government Exhibit VI194.
Q. Mr. Copeland, do you recognize any of the signs that are
depicted in VI194?
A. Yeah. I can't say for sure that any of these exact signs
were outside of our house, for example, but the——some images
within the signs were definitely outside of our house, yeah.
Q. And focusing on the top left sign.
MS. MURRAY: If we could zoom in on that, Ms. Loftus.
Q. Do you recognize the individual depicted on this sign,
Mr. Copeland?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
A. Yes, that is Isabelle's dad, Luc.
Q. Isabelle's dad and your father-in-law; is that correct?
A. And my father-in-law.
MS. MURRAY: We can take this down, Ms. Loftus.
Q. So turning back to that day in November of 2022, can you
describe for the jury what, if anything, the protestors were
doing outside of your home.
A. Yeah. So there was about a handful, five people. They had
signs similar to the ones that was just shown, and some flags.
And they were all wearing masks over their faces and then large
sunglasses and most wearing hats. So they were kind of
incognito. And they were handing out pamphlets that were
similar——had similar images and related messages to our
neighbors that were walking by.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if you could please show the
witness what's been marked as Government Exhibit 3450.
Q. Mr. Copeland, do you recognize the image in Government
Exhibit 3450?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that a photograph of?
A. It is an edited photograph of Luc being seduced by some
devil-type form. Yeah.
Q. Focusing on the photograph itself, Mr. Copeland, do you
recognize the photograph of this item?
A. Yeah. This——so I have this pamphlet. It was one of the
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
ones being distributed outside my home. My neighbor gave it to
me.
Q. And did you take this photograph, Mr. Copeland, of the
pamphlet that you have that had been distributed outside of
your home?
A. Yes.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers
Government Exhibit 3450.
MS. SHROFF: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 3450 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: Could we publish that, please.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. So Mr. Copeland, now that the jury can see it, can you read
the text that's written and the numbers on the top of this
pamphlet, the image of the pamphlet that had been handed out
outside of your home.
A. Just the large white text there?
Q. Correct.
A. Extortion, and then the number 250 million, with a dollar
sign next to it.
Q. And the individual who's depicted on the bottom left of
this, as you said, I think edited or manipulated photo——
MS. SHROFF: Objection.
Q. ——who does that appear to be?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. Okay. That is a photo of Luc Despins.
Q. Do you see the image that is on his forehead in this
particular photo?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize it?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's a hammer and sickle.
MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, we can take that
down.
Q. Now, Mr. Copeland, you mentioned that in November of 2022,
the protestors——
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, could the government just ask
a question.
THE COURT: So sometimes facts need to be stated in
order to lead up to the question, and that's what she's doing
here.
Would you go ahead.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. You'd mentioned that the protestors in November 2022 had
flags. Can you describe the general appearance of those flags.
A. Yes. There was one flag that was blue and had yellow stars
on it that I had not seen prior.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could please publish
what's in evidence as Government Exhibit W185.
If we could zoom in on the top left portion of this
image.
Q. First of all, Mr. Copeland, have you ever seen this exhibit
before?
A. This whole graphic?
Q. Correct.
A. No.
Q. Do you recognize the image that's in the blue box on the
top left here?
A. Yeah, that looks similar——you know, this was two years ago,
but it looks similar to the flag that I remember.
Q. And the letters NFSC, do you know what that stands for?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it stand for?
A. Well, the answer is on the page, but the New Federal State
of China. But it's the organization, or movement, that
these——that the protestors were supposed to be a part of.
Q. Was that your understanding at the time, in November 2022,
that the protestors were affiliated with the NFSC?
MS. SHROFF: Objection to the leading.
THE COURT: Did you understand that they were
affiliated with any particular movement?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. What movement, if any?
A. I mean, before——before this whole thing started, I did not
know, but then I watched like a Vice news article, so I don't
know if that was before or after they showed up at my house,
but I knew that, yeah, this movement existed.
MS. MURRAY: We can take that down, Ms. Loftus.
Q. Mr. Copeland, did there come a time in early 2023 when
individuals came to your home again?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe for the jury what happened then.
A. Yeah. So it was a——I think January 2nd. So there was that
one day in November, late November, and then they stopped
coming after that one day, and then they showed up, started
showing up regularly——
MS. SHROFF: Objection and move to strike as
nonresponsive to the question posed to the witness.
THE COURT: The question was: Can you describe what
happened then.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
A. Yeah, it was a similar situation to what happened on that
day in November. There was also a handful of people outside of
the home wearing masks, glasses, hats, and displaying similar
signs and handing out pamphlets.
Q. And on what date in 2023, approximately, did that begin?
A. January 2nd.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. And approximately how long did the protest continue from
January 2, 2023, outside of your home?
A. They were there every day outside my home between around 9
to 5, from January 2nd to January 9th.
Q. Focusing on that time period, January 2nd to January 9th,
what, if anything, were the protestors holding or displaying?
A. Mostly these posters or, on sticks, signs, that were——had
similar images of Luc wearing devil horns or——or text on them
saying, like, Luc was getting money from the Chinese Communist
Party and that he was working with them, and that then that
Isabelle was kind of indirectly benefiting from the Chinese
Communist Party through Luc.
Q. Did your wife Isabelle have any participation in the
bankruptcy case of Miles Guo?
A. No.
Q. Is your wife Isabelle an attorney?
A. No.
Q. Does your wife Isabelle work with her father Luc Despins in
connection with the bankruptcy case of Miles Guo?
A. No.
Q. What was your reaction, if any, to the protestors
reappearing outside of your house between January 2nd and
January 9th of 2023?
A. Yeah, it was——it was pretty unsettling, for many reasons.
You know, we were——yeah, it's——new to the neighborhood, we
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
didn't really, you know, know what they were saying to our
neighbors or what our neighbors would think of them, and we
still don't really know. It was——we'd, like, put our blinds
down because our——our——most of our house is just kind of
straight visible from the street. You know, I work from home
in the mornings, so it was kind of unsettling to know that
there were, like, people standing outside while I was working.
I think it affected my wife a lot more than even me. So, yeah,
it was very unsettling, very disturbing. Yeah.
Q. Did the protestors have any equipment with them when they
came outside of your home?
A. Yeah, they would——they would livestream from outside our
home, so that was a big reason we wanted to keep the blinds
down all the time is because they would kind of like videotape
us. If not, they'd be videotaping us moving around our home.
So——yeah.
Q. How, if at all, did that make you feel?
A. Yeah, I mean, it felt definitely like a violation of——of
kind of privacy, and we also would hear about things that they
were saying about Luc and then as, by extension, Isabelle
online, and so, you know, Isabelle was concerned that someone
maybe loosely affiliated or affiliated with the group would
really believe this stuff and, you know, try and break into our
house or——or follow her to work or——or, yeah, follow her.
Q. Mr. Copeland, you mentioned January 9th. What, if
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
anything, happened after January 9, 2023?
A. Yeah. So Isabelle would——Isabelle's work starts early so
she leaves——she had a routine down when they were coming that
she would——her school starts at 7.
MS. SHROFF: Objection, your Honor. The question was
what happened after January 9th, not what Isabelle's schedule
is at work.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
A. So she would leave before they showed up at 9 p.m.——9 a.m.,
and then she would work later at school than she normally does
so that she would get back after they'd already left, usually
around 5 p.m. So my schedule was, I'd be working from home in
the morning, but that morning I got a call from her, I guess
around——
MS. SHROFF: Objection to the hearsay. And your
Honor, may we just approach.
THE COURT: All right.
(PAGES 4223-4227 SEALED by order of the Court)
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
(In open court)
THE COURT: You may continue.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Mr. Copeland, directing your attention again to January 10,
2023, can you continue to tell the jury what happened that day.
A. Yeah. So Isabelle left for school before, you know, before
7 a.m., got to school, and then I got a call around——from her,
around 9, and, yeah, she was clearly distraught, and told me
that they had shown up at her school.
Q. Can you describe how she seemed during that call, from your
observations.
MS. SHROFF: He wasn't observing her. He was on the
phone.
THE COURT: So he can describe his impressions that he
got through the way she spoke.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
A. Yeah, so she was clearly distraught, in tears, having
trouble getting words out. This was kind of her——kind of her
biggest fear, that this would affect her school community, and
her——yeah.
THE COURT: So you'll just limit your testimony to
what you observed, not words that she communicated or thoughts
that she had.
THE WITNESS: Got it.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. What, if anything, did you do in response to that phone
call?
A. Yeah, so I left immediately to go to her school, which is
in Cambridge.
Q. What, if anything, did you see when you arrived at the
school that day, January 10, 2023?
A. So her school is a short bike ride away, so I——I rode my
bike, and on the way to the back of the school, I saw the——you
pass by the front of the school, and I saw where the protestors
were, and then I went to the back of the school where I was let
in by one of the staff and then brought to the principal's
office where Isabelle was——was.
Q. And when you arrived in the principal's office, how did
Isabelle seem at that time?
A. Yeah. She was still——she was still, you know, really
panicked, really upset, just really, you know, crying and
unsettled and just kind of overcome with fear and worry about
what this would mean and——
THE COURT: So don't talk about what her thoughts
were. You can just talk about what you observed. If you see
somebody who is laughing, you can say they seemed happy, for
example.
THE WITNESS: Gotcha.
A. So she seemed pretty miserable.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. And based on your arriving at the school on that day, were
the protestors visible from the front of the school?
A. Yeah. Or from where I arrived? I arrived from the back,
but I then——yeah, out from the principal's office, which is in
the front of the school, you could——you could see them.
Q. Did there come a time that day when you spoke with the
police?
A. Yeah. When I arrived, the police were there as well,
Cambridge Police.
Q. And what, if anything, did you report to the police?
A. So I think at this point we hadn't——well, we'd told the
police when they were coming to our house and so the police
drove by on their rounds kind of more frequently, but at that
time there was not much more they could do. And then, you
know, the——so the protestors at the school had similar kind of
graphic signs with, you know, the devil on it or bloody
handprints or blood splatter, so we were kind of talking with
them, if this is allowed to be shown in front of a public
school, is there rules against, like, graphic images and
displaying graphic images to schoolchildren.
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, all of this is hearsay.
THE COURT: So——
MS. SHROFF: I move to strike.
THE COURT: ——you can't talk about what other people
said. You can talk about the general topic that you discussed.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
So for example, I could say I had a discussion with my husband
about breakfast. But I can't say, he said, I want sausage and
toast and eggs. You understand?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A. So we had a discussion about whether or not it was okay for
or legal for them to be there.
Q. After that meeting at the school, what, if anything, did
you do that day?
A. So——so the Cambridge Police, when we asked them that, they
didn't know——they said they didn't know. This is a pretty
unusual——
MS. SHROFF: Objection. Hearsay. Move to strike.
THE COURT: So you can't say the words of anybody,
okay? Those words are stricken.
A. So we went to the Cambridge courthouse or the courthouse
that is——that——whose district Cambridge is in.
Q. What did you do there, if anything?
A. We——so we didn't really know what mechanisms there were to
prevent this kind of thing, so——
MS. SHROFF: If the witness could just answer the
question as to what he did.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor——
MS. SHROFF: The thought process is not relevant.
THE COURT: It is relevant. It is relevant in
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
explaining what he did.
Go ahead.
A. So the mechanism that they suggested or that was close——
THE COURT: Okay. So don't talk about what they
suggested.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, sorry.
Q. What did you do? What did you do?
A. We applied for a harassment protection order.
Q. Against whom?
A. We wanted to apply for one against the actual people that
showed up, but we didn't have anyone's names and that was a
requirement for the harassment protection order, so we applied
for it against Miles Guo, which was the only name we had.
Q. And why, if at all, did you list Miles Guo under the
restraining order relating to the protests at your home and at
Isabelle's school?
A. We knew that Isabelle's dad was working this case against
him and that this was the tactic that had been employed in the
past, and it was the only name that we had that we could put
down for the harassment protection order.
Q. Now, Mr. Copeland, did there come a time when you retracted
that restraining order?
A. Yes.
Q. Around when was that?
A. Later that evening.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. And why, if at all, did you take that step?
A. We quickly realized that it was not going to be effective
for or stopping protestors that were not actually the person we
listed, so we——we just told them to rescind it.
Q. To your knowledge did Miles Guo himself ever show up to
protest outside of your home?
A. No.
Q. To your knowledge did he ever show up himself to protest
outside of Isabelle's school?
A. No.
Q. After January 10, 2023, did the protests continue?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. So during the week they would show up at her school, and
then on the weekends they would show up at our house.
Q. For approximately how long did they continue to protest
outside of either your home or Isabelle's school?
A. For a few weeks.
Q. What steps, if any, did you take regarding your physical
safety during that time?
A. In November, Isabelle had a car service come hired by Luc's
company to take her to and from school. That was for a week.
In January, the Cambridge Police were aware so they
showed up at the school, and definitely, especially during the
first week or so, when they were kind of figuring out what was
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
happening, and then——so I was instructed to bring any kind of
weapons I had into my bedroom, so I had a baseball bat in my
bedroom.
Q. And where——
A. In my closet.
Q. And where, if anywhere, did you maintain that baseball bat?
A. I put it in my closet near my bed.
Q. To your knowledge did Luc Despins stop working on the Miles
Guo bankruptcy case after the protestors arrived at Isabelle's
school on January 10, 2023?
A. He did not stop working.
Q. Mr. Copeland, can you describe the effect on you of these
protests outside of your home and Isabelle's school.
A. Yeah. It was extremely unsettling. Yeah, it was extremely
unsettling, and it felt——also the——dealing with the court
system and seeing that there was kind of no mechanism to——that
would help was kind of——
MS. SHROFF: Objection. That is not relevant to how
he was feeling.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
A. ——made me feel kind of powerless in the situation, so,
yeah, that was——
Q. Mr. Copeland, did any of the protestors ever physically
confront you or Isabelle?
A. No.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Direct
Q. Did any of the protestors ever speak directly to you or
Isabelle?
A. No.
Q. Did you feel that your safety was threatened in any way by
their presence outside of your home during those weeks in
January and February of 2023?
A. To some degree, yes.
Q. And can you explain why.
A. I mean, I didn't really know what these people were capable
of, whether or not they really believed what was being said,
and we didn't know, you know, they had put our address online
so we didn't know if someone else was going to show up that was
affiliated or not affiliated with this. And yeah, I had read
things in the past where people had gotten into altercations
with them, so, yes, unsettling, yeah.
Q. Did there come a time when the protestors stopped coming
either to your home or Isabelle's school?
A. Yes.
Q. Around when was that?
A. A few weeks——I'm not exactly sure what date——after
January 10th.
Q. Do you know why they stopped coming?
A. No, I don't know why.
Q. Mr. Copeland, have you ever taken any action against Miles
Guo, other than the restraining order we discussed earlier?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. No.
Q. Have you or your wife ever attempted to kidnap Miles Guo?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever attempted to repatriate him to China on
behalf of the Chinese Communist Party?
A. No.
Q. Are you now or have you ever been an agent of the Chinese
Communist Party?
A. No.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, may I have a moment.
THE COURT: You may.
MS. MURRAY: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
MS. SHROFF: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Copeland.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Copeland, you're testifying pursuant to a subpoena
here, you said on your direct testimony, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Who served you the subpoena? And could you keep your voice
up for me, please.
A. The government served me the subpoena. Is that——
Q. Could you keep your voice up for me, please.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. The government.
Q. How?
A. Through a lawyer that Luc's firm hired, I think.
Q. Excuse me?
A. Through a lawyer that Luc's firm hired.
Q. Luc, meaning your father-in-law?
A. His firm, I think.
Q. His firm. What is his firm?
A. Paul Hastings.
Q. Paul Hastings hired a lawyer for you?
A. Yes.
Q. So Ms. Murray here served a subpoena on Paul Hastings'
hired lawyer for you; is that right?
A. That's my understanding, yeah.
Q. How did you get it?
A. Sorry?
Q. How did you get the subpoena?
A. Through this lawyer.
Q. How? Like, did he email it to you, mail it to you?
A. Oh. Email.
Q. Okay. And then after you got the emailed subpoena, what
did you do?
Let me try a different question, okay, just for a
second. What was the return date on the subpoena?
A. I don't know.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
Q. Did you read the subpoena?
A. No.
Q. Did you open it?
A. No.
Q. You just went and met with Ms. Murray, right?
A. No. That's not accurate. I met with this lawyer, who was
representing me.
Q. Okay. And then that lawyer and you met with Ms. Murray
together or did that come around separately?
A. Sorry. Can you say one more time?
Q. Sure. You met with this lawyer, right?
A. Yes.
Q. You weren't paying for this lawyer, right?
A. Me personally, no.
Q. Okay. And then this lawyer——don't tell me what the advice
was. And this lawyer then put you in touch with Ms. Murray; is
that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And when you met with Ms. Murray, was that lawyer there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And where did you meet?
A. On Zoom or Teams or something like that. Video.
Q. Okay. So the subpoena didn't tell you that you had to come
meet with her, right? The subpoena asked you to come to court,
right?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. Yeah, that sounds right.
Q. Right. But you decided you were going to meet with her,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. You had no obligation to meet with her, right?
A. I think that's correct, yeah.
Q. Right. You could have just answered the subpoena, come and
testified and left, right?
A. Yes, I could have done that.
Q. How many times did you meet with her?
A. Two times.
Q. And both times on Zoom or one time in person and one time
on Zoom?
A. Two times on Zoom, and then I guess today, we shook hands,
but that was it.
Q. Okay. So the first time that you met with her on Zoom, how
long was the meeting?
A. It was two hours.
Q. And the second time you met on Zoom was how many times?
A. Was how long?
Q. Yeah.
A. One hour.
Q. One hour. Okay. And it's fair to say, right, that the
government is the only people you've met with before you
testified here, right? You didn't meet with me, right?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. I did not meet with you.
Q. Okay. And when you spoke with Ms. Murray, she was taking
notes of what you were saying?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. She asked you questions, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told her the story that you told the jury now,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take notes?
A. Yeah.
Q. You took notes.
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you give the notes to Ms. Murray?
A. I think they were just like logistics, just where I needed
to be and when, so——
Q. Okay. And how many times did she give you the logistics?
A. I think they changed a little bit from——so as they changed.
Probably twice, maybe. I don't know.
Q. How did she get in touch with you, she called you or texted
you?
A. We only met through the Zoom link. She never sent me any
other——it would have been either through email or——but mostly
just the Zoom links, like.
Q. How did you know to come here today?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. The lawyer that was hired by Luc's firm kind of handled the
last-minute logistics so told me where to meet him and then how
to get into the building, stuff like that.
Q. Okay. And when you met with Ms. Murray, you told her
basically everything you now testified to before the jury,
correct?
A. Yeah, just about.
MS. SHROFF: Now let's just see if we could just go
to, Jorge——may I just ask for, one second, your Honor.
Q. If I could just show you 3450 that the government showed
you during your direct testimony.
The government showed you this photograph, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's a photograph that you gave to Ms. Murray?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you had maintained that photograph at your home,
right?
A. I had the——the pamphlet.
Q. Okay. And do you know what the top part of it said, the
part that we cannot read?
A. In yellow? No, I don't.
Q. Yeah. The yellow part.
A. No, I don't have it memorized, no.
Q. Okay. And what does the part over there in the white say?
You don't remember that either, right?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. Where are you looking?
Q. At the bottom. You see that little corner?
A. In the box?
Q. Yeah.
A. Yeah, I don't know what that said, no.
Q. Okay. And you testified that this is the pamphlet
that——was it given to you by your neighbor? Is that what you
said on direct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when the neighbor gave it to you, he was sympathetic to
your plight, correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. He felt bad for you?
A. She, but yes.
Q. Right. And since the time of these protests until now,
you've lived in the same——you can take that down, Jorge,
please——you lived in the same neighborhood?
A. Yes.
Q. And basically your neighbors have been supportive of you,
correct?
A. The ones we know and talked to about it and have explained
it to, yes.
Q. That's far more than what we do in New York. We don't talk
to anyone.
But the neighbors that you talked to, they've been
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4243
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
supportive, right? Yes?
A. The ones I've talked to, yeah.
Q. Okay. And during the time that you lived there, the
protests were across from your house; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. They were not on the same street as your house, right?
A. They were on the same street. They're on the opposite side
of the street.
Q. Right. So this is your house, they are here, right?
A. If you're——if that's the street, then yeah.
Q. Okay.
A. It's a one-way, one-lane street.
Q. Okay. And you testified that this happened in November,
right?
A. The first time they showed up was in November.
Q. It's a winter month, correct?
A. Technically, no.
Q. Technically, no? November is not winter?
A. It's fall.
Q. Okay. How about January?
A. That's winter.
Q. How about December?
A. Most of it's fall.
Q. Okay. Wait. December is also fall?
A. Yes.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
Q. I've been doing it all wrong.
Okay. So you saw people with masks, correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. You saw people with hats, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And these people never approached you, correct?
A. They were outside my house but never approached me beyond
that.
Q. I couldn't hear you. I apologize.
A. Oh, they were outside my house; they never approached me.
Q. Right.
A. Like, if I walked out, they wouldn't walk up to me.
Q. Right. So you were able to go to the grocery store, do
your thing; they never came up to you, right?
A. Correct.
Q. They never hurt you, correct?
A. Physically, no, definitely not.
Q. No. And they never threatened to hurt you either, correct?
A. Not directly, no.
Q. Well, tell me how they threatened to hurt you indirectly.
A. I mean, they were holding up, like, bloody signs with my
wife's name on them, so that was kind of——
Q. Well, the name on the bloody signs, I didn't see your
wife's name on them.
A. Her name was on them.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
Q. So let's just put that aside because we'll talk about that
in a minute, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. But there were no bloody signs with your name on it, right?
A. My name, no.
Q. And the bloody signs wouldn't physically hurt you, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And they never would threaten you physically, correct?
A. That is correct, yeah.
Q. Okay. And when they had bloody signs about your wife, your
wife unfortunately was linked to Luc Despins, correct?
A. She's his daughter.
Q. Right. So the sign didn't say anything specific just about
your wife, she was linked to her father, right? It said
Isabelle Despins, daughter of Luc, benefiting from Luc Despins,
correct?
A. They would say stuff like, Isabelle Despins, you are not
innocent, with like bloody handprints.
Q. Okay. One second.
So it had her last name, right? And she still has her
last name which is also her father's last name, correct?
A. Correct. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And you and your wife, I'm assuming, lived together
the whole time, correct, of this happening, right?
A. Yes.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
Q. And sitting here today, you can tell the jury that nobody
physically threatened your wife, correct?
A. No one physically——no one verbally or physically threatened
her in person, that is correct.
Q. Okay. All right. Do you by any chance know the age of the
protestors that were there? Could you tell?
A. I'd be guessing.
Q. Right. Do you remember a rather short old lady that always
came protesting?
A. I don't remember any individual. They were wearing kind of
masks that intentionally de-identified them, blocked their
faces.
Q. And this was in November of 2020?
A. One day in November of 2020, the rest in January.
Q. Okay. And on that one day in November of 2020, did you
call the police?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. Just
mischaracterizes the date that he testified to.
Q. I'm sorry. You tell me the date, sir. I've forgotten. My
apologies.
A. I think it was down as November 20th.
Q. November 20th?
MS. MURRAY: Just with respect to the year.
Q. Which year?
A. 2022.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
Q. Sorry about that. November 20, 2022. Did you call the
police?
A. I think so.
Q. You did, right?
A. I think so. I——I'm not a hundred percent sure about that,
but probably, yes.
Q. The police didn't make them move, right?
A. No.
Q. The police, did they give you a reason why they wouldn't
make them move?
A. There was——
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Calls for hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Do you have an impression as to why the police didn't make
them move? Do you have an understanding as to why the police
didn't make them move?
MS. MURRAY: Same objection, your Honor, to the extent
it calls for hearsay.
THE COURT: If you have an understanding that is
independent of what the police explained to you.
A. Yeah, I mean, the police explained——well, they explained
it, but——prior to them explaining it, I did not know what the
rules were.
Q. Okay. But the police came and left the protestors there,
correct?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And then they eventually went home, right?
A. The protestors?
Q. Yeah. Well, the police did too, but definitely the
protestors.
A. Yes.
Q. And then we talked a lot on your direct about the protests
in January, correct?
A. Depends what you think a lot is, but I think so, yes.
Q. Okay. And in January you also called the police, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the police responded, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, they were pretty responsive to you; they would do
drive-bys for you, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. They wanted to make sure you were safe, correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. You live in a nice part of the neighborhood where the
police are actually responsive, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. And when the police drove by, did they disperse the
crowds?
A. No.
Q. No, right? Yes or no? I'm sorry.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
MS. SHROFF: I can't hear him, so——
A. No.
Q. Okay. So the crowds were still there but the police were
also there for your protection, right?
A. They weren't there around the clock, but they were——yeah,
they picked up the phone, yeah.
Q. Okay. And you testified that these people were outside and
they had some equipment, correct?
A. Equipment being a camera, yes.
Q. Okay. It was just like a camera or like a whole unit, like
a video and all the accoutrements that follow?
A. They had a tripod.
Q. They had a tripod, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you never saw anything from your family home published
on the internet, right?
A. No, that's not true.
Q. You did see the inside of your home published on the
internet?
A. I saw the——our home from the vantage point of the
protestors published on the internet.
Q. No, no. That's the outside facade of your home, right?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. Asked and
answered.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
MS. SHROFF: I did not ask that.
Q. Whether the video was of the outside facade of your home.
That's the question.
A. Yeah, it was the outside of my home, yeah.
Q. And nobody took a photo of your dog and posted it on the
internet, right?
A. We didn't have a dog by that point.
Q. Okay. And throughout this time, these protestors were
still allowed to be there by the——what is it called, the
Cambridge Police, the Boston Police, the Beacon Hill Police?
Which one is it?
A. Cambridge Police. Wait. Sorry. What was the question,
though? I was answering that part of the question. What was
the first part of the question, they were allowed to be there?
Q. Right.
A. Yeah.
Q. They weren't ticketed, correct?
A. No.
Q. They weren't told to disperse, correct?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. He wouldn't know.
THE COURT: Well, he might have observed them being
ticketed. He might have observed the police shooing them away.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You testified having a baseball bat in the closet, correct?
A. Yes.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
Q. Never had to use that baseball bat, right?
A. Not for home defense.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Can you give me one second.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. Let me show you what is marked as Defense Exhibit 70777.
I'm only going to show it to you and government counsel, okay?
And the Court.
Do you see this photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these the protestors that were outside your home?
Do you recognize this photograph?
A. I don't recognize this photograph. I recognize the setting
of the photograph.
Q. What's the setting?
A. The setting is the outside of my home.
Q. Outside your home, right?
A. Yes.
MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, we move to admit this into
evidence.
MS. MURRAY: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit 70777 received in evidence)
Q. Are these the people that were protesting outside your
home?
A. I never saw a person outside my home that wasn't wearing
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
big sunglasses. Personally never saw——this picture is
different, so they don't look like the people necessarily
outside my home, or they don't look like the people looked like
when they were outside my home.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. One minute. I just want to make
sure the jury has the photograph.
Q. Okay. The man on the very left, right?
A. Okay.
Q. The smiling guy over there?
A. I see him.
Q. With the glasses? No mask, right?
A. Yeah, that's true.
Q. Okay. How about the lady over there with the hat, no mask?
A. She is not wearing a mask.
Q. Okay. How about the lady in that yellow coat; she's
wearing a COVID mask, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And the man next to that? Yes? No mask?
A. Yeah, no mask, right, correct.
Q. And these are the four or five people that would show up,
right?
A. Sorry?
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered. Also I'm
not sure what people she's referring to.
THE COURT: What is the question?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
MS. SHROFF: It's okay.
Q. You do recognize this to be outside of your house, right?
A. This is outside——this is outside my house, yes.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can take that down.
Q. Now you testified about this protective order that you
applied for, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were granted the protective order, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the protective order was against Miles Guo?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And it's a protective order that just basically——you
tell me, right——said that Miles Guo had to stay X number of
feet away from you, right? Is that what the protective order——
A. I'm not sure. I think——that seems reasonable. I'm not
really sure what was——what rules——the rules were around it.
Q. Okay.
A. Yeah.
Q. It was issued to you, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you bother rescinding it?
A. After talking to law enforcement, it was determined that
this would not be helpful with our situation.
Q. Okay. But why bother rescinding it? It's there. Who
cares?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Cross
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. I asked you: Why did you rescind it?
A. Yeah, we didn't want it to get sent because we didn't want
to enter some legal battle that wasn't going to help.
Q. Okay. And Mr. Guo never responded, right?
A. No.
Q. He was never within any feet of you, right?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Okay. And since January 10th of 2023, you've had no more
protests at your home?
A. That's not correct.
Q. There have been protests after January of 2023?
A. It was on for a few weeks so probably——
Q. No, no. I mean after the complete month of January of
2023.
A. It might have went into February, but after that, no.
Q. After that, no, right?
A. Yes, after that period.
Q. Okay. So on direct you said it stopped in January, now
you're not sure, it could have gone into February; is that what
you're saying?
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, objection. It
mischaracterizes his testimony.
THE COURT: Sustained.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Redirect
Q. Okay. You tell me.
A. It started in January 2nd, they were there every day until
January 9th, then they started to go weekends at our home and
weekdays at the school.
Q. Okay. And then when did it stop?
A. A few weeks after January 10th, so——
Q. You didn't keep track of when it stopped?
A. No.
Q. This very unsettling thing, you did not keep track of when
it stopped.
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. SHROFF: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Redirect?
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
If I could ask the defense to put up Defense
Exhibit 70777. I'd appreciate it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Mr. Copeland, you were asked some questions——
MS. SHROFF: Oh, I don't have it. Do you have it?
Q. You were asked some questions on cross-examination about
this photo. Do you recall those?
A. Generally, yes.
Q. Ms. Shroff asked you about the happy protestor on the left.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Redirect
Do you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. During the weeks that protestors showed up outside of your
home, did you ever——can you please keep that up, thank you——did
you ever see any of the protestors smiling?
A. No.
Q. If we could focus on the bottom of these signs, what are
the words that are near the bloody handprints on each of these
three signs?
A. It says: "Isabelle Despins You Are Not Innocent."
Q. How, if at all, was the fact that the protestors outside of
your home were holding these signs that included the bloody
handprints and your wife's name, how was that a threat?
A. How was that a threat?
Q. Yes. How, if at all, did that feel threatening to you?
A. Well, this is being livestreamed on the internet, so even
if the people here were peacefully protesting, it's possible
that other people would believe that Isabelle was somehow
involved or would believe what these things, these signs are
saying, and try and harm us or——or, you know, make, you
know——yeah. Yeah.
MS. MURRAY: And we can take that down. Thank you
very much.
Q. Mr. Copeland, based on your observations, how, if at all,
did these signs impact your wife?
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Redirect
A. Tremendously. She's a——kind of a——well, a little bit more
tight——
MS. SHROFF: Objection.
MS. MURRAY: These are his observations, your Honor.
MS. SHROFF: Objection.
THE COURT: So you can describe your observations of
her. Go ahead.
A. All right. Over the eight plus years I have observed her,
she has been a very high-strung person. She really cares
about——I've witnessed her dedication to her school community.
I've seen how much she cares——
MS. SHROFF: Objection. Move to strike.
A. ——about her job.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.
A. And I saw how——how stressful——yeah, I saw how hard it was
on her. I have seen that she really cares about her kids and
keeping them safe and making sure school is a safe environment
for them and that they feel comfortable at school and
comfortable with her, and I saw how the idea that——that she
could be causing additional trauma in some of these kids' lives
was negatively impacting her.
Q. Mr. Copeland, you were asked some questions on
cross-examination about having rescinded the restraining order
against Mr. Guo. Do you remember those questions?
A. Yeah. Yes.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Recross
Q. What concerns, if any, did you have in pursuing a
restraining order against Miles Guo?
A. I was concerned that we would enter some legal dispute that
would be pointless and, you know, time-consuming and——and
fruitless, so it was not worth it.
MS. MURRAY: May I have a moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, Mr. Copeland. Nothing
further.
THE COURT: Recross?
MS. SHROFF: Would you put the photo back up.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. Ms. Murray——do you need a moment, Mr. Copeland, or are you
okay?
A. I'm good.
Q. Okay. So Ms. Murray asked you questions about this
particular photograph, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And she asked you if you'd seen any smiling protestors,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Copeland, isn't it fair to say that you didn't
particularly want to make any eye contact with them, right?
A. Yes, I would say that's true.
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Recross
Q. Right. They were protesting, you didn't want them
protesting, right?
A. I did not want them protesting outside of our house or my
wife's school.
Q. Exactly. Exactly. It's a hassle, right?
A. A hassle is one way of putting it. I would put it another
way.
Q. Scary, right?
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, if she could let the witness
finish his answer.
THE COURT: Okay. Please finish your answer.
A. Yeah, scary.
Q. Scary, right? So you wouldn't want to make eye contact
with them, right?
THE COURT: Asked and answered.
Q. So you wouldn't know if somebody was smiling or not
smiling, correct?
A. I never saw them smile or saw someone's face. They were
wearing masks whenever I looked.
Q. They were all wearing masks whenever you looked; that's
your recollection?
A. Yeah, that's my recollection, yes.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Now you can take that down.
Wait. Actually, leave it up here.
Q. Ms. Murray also asked you questions about how this language
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Recross
made you feel, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And none of the language is pleasant, correct?
A. Yeah, no, I would say this is unsettling language.
Q. Right. And the police were aware of this unsettling
language, correct?
A. Probably. They were driving by, so I would guess yes.
Q. And they continued to allow the protests, right?
A. Yes.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can take that down.
Q. Now Ms. Murray asked you questions about your wife,
correct?
A. I believe so. I believe so, yes.
Q. And one of the questions, or one of the answers that you
gave was that she was deeply concerned about the kids at her
school, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. She taught at a public school, correct?
A. She teaches at a public school still, same school.
Q. Right. And it's basically an ESL class, right, English as
a foreign language class?
A. Her classroom is an ESL class. Her school has a general
public school as well that's——
Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that the school was supportive
of her?
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(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Recross
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. Beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. SHROFF: She asked about her reaction and what he
observed. That's within the scope.
THE COURT: Not about what the school did.
Q. Did your wife feel supported by the school?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor.
MS. SHROFF: That's within the scope.
THE COURT: Sustained. He can describe what he
observed.
Q. Okay. Did you observe the principal being supportive of
your wife?
A. On January 10th, I would say yes. Other times, she had,
you know——she would have handled things differently than how
the school handled it, but——
Q. I cannot hear you. I'm sorry. But that's okay.
Did you observe the other teachers being supportive of
your wife?
A. No, I didn't——I mean, I heard it from my wife but I didn't
observe it.
Q. Okay. And you testified about the length of the protests,
correct? You testified about the dates, correct?
A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. Right. And was that date specific to your home or do you,
sitting here today, know that that same length applied to the
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O6P1GUO4 Copeland - Recross
protests near the school?
MS. MURRAY: Objection, just to form.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Do you know how long they protested outside the school?
A. I think it was a few weeks after——during the school day,
after January 10th.
Q. After January 10th, right?
A. Starting on January 10th for a few weeks.
Q. Okay. And it ended before February, correct?
MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. SHROFF: I'm asking about the school, not the
home.
THE COURT: It's 2:29.
MS. SHROFF: I have two more questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MS. SHROFF:
Q. When you got the protective order against Miles Guo, did
you even serve him?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered, your Honor.
MS. SHROFF: No. I did not ask if he was served.
THE COURT: Did you personally serve him?
THE WITNESS: No.
Q. So Mr. Guo didn't even have knowledge of the protective
order, correct?
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O6P1GUO4
MS. MURRAY: Objection.
THE COURT: He cannot speak to what knowledge Mr. Guo
had.
Q. And since you got the protective order or rescinded the
protective order, Mr. Guo has not engaged in any litigation
with you, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. He's never sued you, correct?
MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. He's never sued your wife, correct?
A. Correct.
MS. SHROFF: Okay. Thank you very much.
MS. MURRAY: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may step out.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: And it's time for our break. We'll
reconvene in half an hour. Remember that you're not allowed to
talk amongst yourselves about the case or permit anyone to talk
about the case in your presence. Don't read, listen, or watch
anything having to do with this case.
(Continued on next page)
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O6P1GUO4
(Jury not present)
THE COURT: You may be seated.
Is there anything further?
MS. MURRAY: Nothing from the government.
MS. SHROFF: No, your Honor. Thank you.
MR. FINKEL: Just, we were notified by the defense
with respect to the issue we talked about at sidebar. The
parties reached an accommodation.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
(Recess)
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
THE COURT: Let's have the jurors brought in.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Please be seated, and please call the next
witness.
MR. FINKEL: Yes, your Honor. The government calls
Stephen Johnson.
STEPHEN JOHNSON,
called as a witness by the Government,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it.
THE WITNESS: Stephen Johnson, S-T-E-P-H-E-N,
J-O-H-N-S-O-N.
THE COURT: You may be seated and speak into the
microphone. You may inquire.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FINKEL:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Johnson.
A. Hello.
Q. Where do you work?
A. Securities and Exchange Commission.
Q. What is the Securities and Exchange Commission?
A. It's a government agency that protects investors and
investigates violations of securities fraud.
Q. And is it independent from the department of justice?
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
A. Yes.
Q. What is your title with the SEC?
A. Branch chief.
Q. Could you just briefly describe at a high level for the
members of the jury what you do as a branch chief for the SEC?
A. I supervise a group of investigators in the New York
regional office and I also participate in investigations.
Q. Mr. Johnson, I'm going to ask you to point the microphone
at your mouth. You can feel free to move it this way.
THE COURT: The acoustics are not good in here. You
have to speak right into it.
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. FINKEL: I'm approaching the witness with a USB
drive which is been marked as GX-37.
Your Honor, I represent that USB drive contains the
following government exhibits in the GXSM series, 11, 12, 17 to
21, 62, 73, 88, 96, 126 to 130, 133, 147, 149, 151, 155, 156,
159, 170, 176, 178, 180, 181, 183, 187, 189, 191, 201, 205,
206, 208, 210, 217, 218, 224, 226, 227, 233, 235, 237, 252,
264, 277, 283, 284, 287, 296 through 299 and 310.
Q. Mr. Johnson, do you recognize the USB drive I just handed
you.
A. Yes.
Q. How do you recognize it?
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
A. I initialed it.
Q. Have you reviewed the contents of that USB drive?
A. I have.
Q. What's on it?
A. 56 files that were part of a production from Saraca Media
Group to the Securities and Exchange Commission in answer to a
subpoena.
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, at this time the government
offers SM in the SM series, 11, 12, 17, 18, 19, 21, 73, 96,
126, 127, 129, 130, 133, 147, 149, 151, 155, 156, 159, 170,
176, 178, 181, 210, 217, 218, 224, 226, 235, 252, 277, 283, 296
through 299.
MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor. Can we have a
brief sidebar, please.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
(At the sidebar)
MR. SCHIRICK: Our understanding, your Honor, is that
this witness from the SEC is going to testify about how the SEC
received these documents. They're a production from Saraca, so
I don't believe that this witness can authenticate the
underlying documents. He can authenticate the fact that -- he
can testify to the fact that the SEC received these documents.
But as to authenticating the underlying documents themselves,
he has no knowledge.
THE COURT: So has he inspected the documents? In
other words, was he on the receiving end?
MR. SCHIRICK: He said he reviewed the thumb drive.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. FINKEL: I'm happy to lay an additional
foundation. What I expect this witness will testify to, so we
can solve these issues at sidebar, is that he reviewed the
SEC's storage of these materials. He compared them to the
cover letters from the Saraca attorneys, verified the Bate
stamping match those cover letters from Saraca's attorneys. He
reviewed each and every file that was on the USB drive and
compared it to what was stored on the SEC system, was able to
confirm based on his knowledge of the SEC document handling
protocol that these documents were all produced by Saraca.
These documents, I can also tell the Court, are expense
reports. In fact, your Honor this is an expense report which
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
is similar to, but not exactly like, the other expense reports
that would be found on this USB drive. This document was
admitted into evidence already for Karin Maistrello. Karin
Maistrello discussed during her testimony how this was a
payment form that she was generally familiar with used by
Saraca and Golden Spring. The documents that are on the USB
drive are similar documents with similar signatures, similar
identifying information, and the name Saraca Golden Spring. In
addition, there are two other documents on that USB drive which
we are seeking to admit which are documents from Hayman.
As the Court may recall, Hayman received the
investment from Saraca Media. The two documents that are on
the USB drive are the final signed documents that Saraca
signed, that Yvette Wang signed, that Max Krasner signed to
finalize the Saraca investment agreement. And the letter that
Haynes and Boone sent to Saraca to say, where is this money
from. So those documents are already in evidence from Steele
Schottenheimer. She put them into evidence from what Hayman
has, and they match what Saraca produced to the SEC. This is
another way of saying, your Honor, that there are multiple
indications suggesting the authenticity of the documents on
that USB which allow a reasonable juror to find that the
documents are authentic.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I think there's two issues
here. One is the authenticity issue, and the maintaining
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
objection that this witness cannot authenticate underlying
Saraca documents. The most this witness can do based on his
knowledge is to say that those documents were received by the
SEC. Now if that's a fact that's the government wants to get
in, that's fine. But as to the underlying documents, he can't
authenticate the underlying Saraca documents.
THE COURT: I think that they're only trying to get
him to say those are what the SEC received, correct?
MR. FINKEL: That's exactly right.
THE COURT: All righty. That's it. Let go.
(Continued on next page)
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(In open court)
MR. FINKEL: The government renews its request to
submit the exhibits.
THE COURT: If you could ask a few foundational
questions, please.
BY MR. FINKEL:
Q. Mr. Johnson, how do you know that those materials were
produced by Saraca to the SEC?
A. So when we issue a subpoena, it contains instructions on
how to return the documents and in what format, and everyone's
instructed to return documents to a centralized production unit
or CPU which is a department in the SEC that takes in all of
the documents. They get the documents loaded into our
eDiscovery platform called Case Point and every document that's
produced is loaded in by the matter number, the producing party
and the date produced.
Q. What did you do to understand that the documents produced
on that USB were produced by Saraca? What steps did you take,
if any, that it was in the SEC system?
A. I opened the documents in here on this thumb drive, and on
another monitor I opened up the same document in the Case Point
system by Bates number.
Q. And did you open every document that was on that USB drive?
A. I did.
Q. And what did you compare each and every document to that
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was on the USB drive?
A. The number of pages, the title of the page and the Bates
number.
Q. And the Bates numbers, what entity were they associated
with in the SEC systems?
A. Saraca Media Group.
MR. FINKEL: Government renews offering the documents
I outlined before.
MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They're admitted.
(Government's Exhibits SM-11, SM-12, SM-17, SM-18,
SM-19, SM-21, SM-73, SM-96, SM-126, SM-127, SM-129, SM-130,
SM-133, SM-147, SM-149, SM-151, SM-155, SM-156, SM-159, SM-170,
SM-176, SM-178, SM-181, SM-210, SM-217, SM-218, SM-224, SM-226,
SM-235, SM-252, SM-277, SM-283, SM-296 through SM-299 received
in evidence)
BY MR. FINKEL:
Q. Mr. Johnson, can you describe to the jury what is a
subpoena?
A. A subpoena is a request for information that we send out in
the course of an investigation.
Q. And were you apart of an investigation concerning Saraca
personally?
A. No.
Q. Were you personally apart of an investigation concerning
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Miles Guo?
A. No.
Q. Or GTV?
A. No.
Q. Or G Coins?
A. No.
Q. Aside from your testimony today and the preparation you did
including the review you just described, did you have any other
involvement in this case?
A. No.
Q. Can we pull up GXSM-77. Is this one of the documents that
Saraca produced?
A. It is.
Q. You see at the top it says Saraca Media Group, Inc. payment
request form?
A. Yes.
Q. And then below that is says name of payee, Voice of Guo
Media, Inc. You see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the payment amount?
A. 7875.
Q. There are two letters next to that, do you see the two
letters at the top?
A. MK.
Q. Do you know what MK stands for?
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A. No.
Q. Can we go to the next page.
Am I correct, Mr. Johnson, this document was attached
to the payment request form?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you read what that says underneath the image of the
check that says Voice of Guo Media?
A. Yes. Hi, Max, the principal has engaged new developers to
develop the G News and they urgently need to pay 7875 U.S.
dollars. Could you pay through the followings: Routing number
is.
Q. You don't have to read those.
Do you know who the principal is?
A. No.
Q. If we can go to the next page, Ms. Loftus, and the page
after that.
Below where it says thanks can they send contract
today, can you read what it says?
A. No, still negotiating, but the principal wants to pay
today. We could pay without contract first. Thanks.
Q. We can take that down if we could put up SM283.
Mr. Johnson, who is the payee for this particular
payment request form from Saraca Media Group?
A. Yvette Wang.
Q. Do you know who she is?
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A. No.
Q. And what's the total payment amount to Yvette Wang?
A. $30,906.56.
Q. If we can go to SM-296. Who's the payee of this document?
A. Ya Li.
Q. And how much is the amount?
A. $2,850.
Q. And if we can go to the next page.
Do you see the date in the top left?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the date?
A. April 27, 2020.
Q. You can take that down, if we could put up SM-178.
And here in this Saraca Media Group payment request
form, Mr. Johnson, who is the payee?
A. Max Krasner.
Q. Do you know who that is?
A. No.
Q. What's the amount that Max Krasner was paid?
A. $30,906.56.
Q. We can put up SM-73 please. Who is the payee on this
document?
A. Aaron Mitchell.
Q. What's the date of the expense?
A. 6/3/2020.
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Q. And how much is the amount that Aaron Mitchell was due to
be paid on this document?
A. $30,906.56.
Q. And do you know one way or another whether these amounts
were actually paid?
A. I don't.
Q. If we can please go to SM-235.
And what's the name of the payee for this document?
A. New England Home Inspections.
Q. How much is the payment amount?
A. $1,750.
Q. Can you read purpose of expense right sort of in the middle
of your screen?
A. Building Inspection.
Q. For?
A. For Greenwich Land, 373 Taconic Road, Greenwich,
Connecticut.
Q. You ever been there, 373 Taconic?
A. No.
Q. Ms. Loftus, can you zoom in on the bottom. There's a
little asterisk. Can you read that asterisk Mr. Johnson?
A. Payment request form must be approved by the chief
operating officer Yvette and/or director of operations Melissa.
Q. You can take that down, and if we can put up SM-151.
Who's the payee for this one?
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A. Greenwich Land, LLC.
Q. Do you know what that entity is?
A. No.
Q. What's the amount?
A. $2 million.
Q. If we can go to SM-147.
What's the name of the payee listed on this one?
A. Go Daddy.
Q. What's the amount?
A. $149.97.
Q. Do you see the Bates number on the bottom right of the
screen?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the last four digit?
A. 1320.
Q. Could we go to the next page, please.
What's the last four digit of the Bates number on this
one.
A. 1321.
Q. Can you read this email that's attached?
A. Good morning, Max. Attach please find invoice number 4900
for the balance due for the completion of the fence. The
remaining balance of $2,846.26 will be due when the painting is
finish. Please kindly remit payment at your earliest
convenience. Thanks very much, Bobby.
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Q. What does it say under Bobby?
A. Connecticut Fence and Landscaping, LLC, 16 Valmar Drive,
New Milford, Connecticut.
Q. Do you know if Greenwich is in Connecticut?
A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could pull up SM-126.
Can you read the purpose of this expense, please?
A. G level.org domain for G Fashion.
Q. If we can pull up SM-133.
What's the date of this expense on the lower right?
A. January 30, 2020.
Q. Can you read the itemize expense description right in the
center?
A. Multiple hosting roll society.org security email essr.
Q. What does it say under expense account?
A. ROL, rolf.
Q. Do you know what the Rule of Law Society has to do with
Saraca Media Group?
A. No.
Q. Can we pull up SM-176.
You see at the top where it says Saraca, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you make out what's crossed out underneath it?
A. Looks like Golden Spring New York, LTD.
Q. Do you know what relationship it is between Golden Spring
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and Saraca?
A. No.
Q. Take that down and put up SM-156, please.
What's the name of this payee?
A. Hermes of Paris.
Q. What's the amount?
A. $24,000.
Q. And what are the names at the bottom of the document here?
A. Max Krasner, Yvette Wang.
Q. Can you go to the next page, please, Ms. Loftus. Can you
zoom in at the top of that receipt please.
Can you read the top of that receipt, please?
A. Hermes of Paris HOP Greenwich, 289 Greenwich Avenue,
Greenwich Connecticut.
Q. What's the name under the customer information?
A. Yanping Wang.
Q. Can you zoom out of that, please. You can look at 210.
What's the payee for this document?
A. G Fashion Media Group, Inc.
Q. How much was this payment request form for?
A. $200,000.
Q. Now, if we can look at SM-11.
Mr. Johnson, is this one of the documents that Saraca
Media produced to the SEC?
A. Yes.
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
Q. Hayman Hong Kong Opportunities Onshore Fund, LP. You see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what that is?
A. No.
Q. If we can Ms. Loftus go to 26 pages in approximately.
Can you read what it says at the top?
A. Hayman Hong Kong Opportunities Onshore Fund, LP, investor
profile. Investor name Saraca Media Group, Inc. Capital
contribution $100 million. Investor type, beneficial holder.
Briefly identify the subscriber's primary source of wealth.
Selling shares of subsidiary.
Q. If you can go back, Ms. Loftus, two pages.
And who according to this document signed as
president?
A. Yanping Wang.
Q. And what's the total requested capital contribution at the
bottom?
A. $100 million.
Q. Requested closing date?
A. June 8, 2020.
Q. If we could put up, please, Ms. Loftus, SM-12.
Mr. Johnson, is this another document that Saraca
Media Group produced to the SEC in response to a subpoena?
A. Yes.
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Q. And who according to this letter dated July 15, 2020, whose
attention was this letter sent?
A. William Je, Max Krasner, Yvette Wang and Aaron Mitchell.
Q. Can you read the second paragraph as the general partner?
A. As the general partner to the fund in the performance of
its continuing diligence and compliance with the securities
laws, Hayman requires a response to the following: What was
the source of capital used by Saraca Media Group, Inc., Saraca
to invest in the group.
Q. Do you know if Saraca ever answered that question?
A. On the previous slide.
Q. Can you read the third bullet, please?
A. If the proceeds were derived from securities offering, did
the offering documents disclose the use of proceeds to include
investment in the fund or in any similar private fund vehicle.
If yes, please provide a copy of the disclosure agreement.
Q. Do you know if the disclosure agreement was provided to any
of these?
A. No.
Q. What's the date of this document?
A. July 15, 2020.
Q. Ms. Loftus, you could pull up SM-11 again at page 24.
What's the date here?
A. June 3, 2020.
Q. So this is before the letter that we just looked at as
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SM-12?
A. Yes.
MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, at this time the government
offers a stipulation. At this time the government offers a
stipulation between the parties which is GX Stip 19.
MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit GX Stip 19 received in evidence)
MR. FINKEL: I'll read it. It is hereby stipulated
and agreed by the United States of America, and Miles Guo the
defendant, that an employee of the US Securities and Exchange
commission, the SEC, would testify as follows:
One, the SEC is an independent federal agency whose
mission is, among other things, to protect investors maintain
fair, orderly and efficient markets and facilitate capital
formation.
Two, following an SEC investigation, on July 28, 2021,
Saraca Media Group Inc., Saraca, agreed to a settlement with
the SEC concerning civil administrative allegations by the SEC
that Saraca, GTV Media Group, GTV, and Voice of Guo Media, Inc.
VOG, conducted an unregistered securities offering through the
GTV private placement. The consent settlement was memorialized
into a written agreement, the settlement agreement, which was
signed by Yanping Wang on behalf of Saraca. Pursuant to the
settlement agreement, Saraca, GTV and VOG have sent to the SEC
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4283
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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$455,211,346.39 related to the GTV private placement, including
$69,713.578.06 from Saraca's investment in Hayman Capital
Management, which was transmitted from the escrow account of
Morvillo, Abramowitz, Grand, Iason & Anello, PC, to the SEC. As
of the date of this stipulation, Saraca and GTV together on a
joint and several basis owe an additional $31,488,392.52 to the
SEC, and VOG owes an additional $45,000, $45,324 to the SEC.
The SEC established a fair fund to distribute the
collected money to individuals and entities who had invested in
the GTV stock offering and the G Coins, G Dollars offerings.
After hiring an administrator to manage the distribution
process, notifying investors and collecting verification
information from investors, distribution to investors began on
September 26, 2022. Through the fair fund, the SEC has
distributed approximately $365,040,744.90 to approximately
4,835 investors throughout the world, including at least 31
investors in the Southern District of New York. The fair fund
distribution process is ongoing.
As part of the consent settlement with the SEC,
Saraca, GTV, and VOG neither admitted nor denied the SEC's
civil administrative allegations. The settlement agreement
concerned allegations regarding an unregistered securities
offering and did not allege any fraud by Saraca, GTV or VOG.
The settlement agreement did not include any allegations of or
conclusions as to criminal conduct. This stipulation may be
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
received into evidence as an exhibit at trial, and it is signed
dated June 21st and signed by the parties.
Your Honor, at this time pursuant to GX Stip 8, the
government offers from GXPRO series the following exhibits:
545, 544, 541, 539, 537, 535, 534, 533, 531, 526, 525, 523,
522, 521, 520, 508, 504, 488, 478, 477, 476, 473, 466, 467,
473, 474, 486, 489, 492, 494, 496, 498, 499, 506, 508, 509.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor if I can just have one
moment.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.
THE COURT: They're admitted.
(Government's Exhibits PRO-545, PRO-544, PRO-541,
PRO-539, PRO-537, PRO-535, PRO-534, PRO-533, PRO-531, PRO-526,
PRO-525, PRO-523, PRO-522, PRO-521, PRO-520, PRO-508, PRO-504,
PRO-488, PRO-478, PRO-477, PRO-476, PRO-473, PRO-466, PRO-467,
PRO-473, PRO-474, PRO-486, PRO-489, PRO-492, PRO-494, PRO-496,
PRO-498, PRO-499, PRO-506, PRO-508, PRO-0509.
BY MR. FINKEL:
Q. Mr. Johnson, do you know what Promemoria is?
A. No.
Q. If we can pull what's in evidence as pro466. If you can
please go to page 19, Ms. Loftus, excuse me, page 20. If you
can zoom in on the bottom, please, Ms. Loftus.
You see at the top, Mr. Johnson, it says Gladys Chow?
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A. Yes.
Q. And her email ends at HCHK Tech?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't know who she is?
A. No.
Q. Can you read the text of the body of this email starting
Hi, Paolo.
A. Hi, Paolo and Davide. Hope you both had a wonderful
Thanksgiving and staying safe under the current circumstance.
It has been almost a year since we last talked about the bronze
statute. Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am
Gladys the assistant of Mr. Miles Kwok. I was using
GladysSC@GSNYUS.com, and this is my new email address that I
will be using moving forward.
I am writing today mainly to relay a message. There
is an upcoming project in New York, and we would like to buy
some furniture from Promemoria, both in-stock items and newly
designed items. Mr. Guo would like to see if Davide would be
able to come to New York for a meeting. He would like to
discuss with Davide in person to let him know about the vision
and see what could be achieved. Please let me know what your
thoughts are. Thank you very much. Regards, Gladys Chow.
Q. We can scroll up a bit, Ms. Loftus.
And what's the date of this email?
A. December 2, 2021.
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Q. Can you just read the first sentence below Dear Gladys?
A. Very nice to hear that Mr. Miles Kwok and you are all fine
and healthy despite this crazy time due to COVID-19.
Q. Who's this email from?
A. Paolo.
Q. We can scroll up, please, Ms. Loftus.
And can you read the response from Gladys Chow
beginning this project?
A. This project is taking place in a mansion in Mahwah, New
Jersey. The client would like to design three walk-in closet.
Below is the link for the three rooms. They're all labeled
accordingly.
Q. That's fine. Thank you. And if we can scroll up a bit
please, Ms. Loftus.
Do you see right here in February 2022 from Gladys
Chow right below thank you. Can you read that?
A. Given the confidentiality of this project, could you please
sign the attached NDA and return it to me. I will send over
the floor plan shortly. Thank you.
Q. If we can scroll up a bit, Ms. Loftus. We're going to
about page 10.
And so here it says, Hi, Paolo, here are the links for
the current design plan. Can you read what it says below link?
A. Kitchen cinema walk-in closet 01 Mrs.
Q. And below the next link?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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A. Closet 02, daughter; closet 03 son; closet 04, Mr.
Q. Can you read the next sentence?
A. The clients do like the layouts of each rooms. The main
thing is to be changed is the furniture.
Q. And below that it says, below is the client's comment on
the current plan. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it says cinema, do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you read what it says page six?
A. Seats layout, he prefer all six single chairs.
Q. What's the heading below cinema?
A. Mrs closet 01.
Q. Can you scroll down, Ms. Loftus.
What's the heading below Mrs. closet?
A. Daughter 02, sons 03, Mr. 04 closets.
Q. If we can scroll up please, Ms. Loftus.
Can you read from Gladys Chow, it says hi Paolo, and
can you read what it says below that.
A. Thank you for getting back to me. That sounds great.
Would it be helpful if you visit the New Jersey property and
take a look of all the rooms that need to be developed. Also
is there any traveling cost incurred on us for this trip.
Regards.
Q. Can we scroll up please, Ms. Loftus. This is also from
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Gladys Chow, can you read where it says below Hi Paolo the site
address.
A. I am checking with the design firm to see --
Q. Sorry, Mr. Johnson, if you can read from the site address
the third line.
A. The site address is 675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah New
Jersey.
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, can we have another
sidebar, please?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Continued on next page)
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(At the sidebar)
MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, these documents, the
Promemoria documents relate to a design fit out by a designer.
This witness has absolutely no knowledge of these documents.
They have nothing to do with the SEC, nothing to do with the
SEC settlement, nothing to do with what Saraca produced to the
SEC. Instead he's just being used to read these documents out
loud to the jury.
THE COURT: One second. Weren't these produced to the
SEC?
MR. SCHIRICK: No.
THE COURT: So how do they come in?
MR. FINKEL: These documents are in pursuant to a
stipulation.
MR. SCHIRICK: That's a completely different issue.
It has nothing to with the SEC.
THE COURT: If you stipulated that they be admitted,
they're admitted, period.
MR. SCHIRICK: Of course. Understood, your Honor. My
point is that they have nothing to do with this witness, and
the government specifically is using this witness to read these
documents aloud. And my understanding is they're in evidence,
the government can argue from them of whatever they want to
argue from them. And given frankly the premium and the
emphasis that has been put on saving time and being efficient,
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
I'm not sure why this SEC witness is reading from documents
that were produced by a decorator. He has no knowledge or
anything to do with this.
MR. FINKEL: I'm happy to ask the witness if he knows
anything or any involvement in the Mahwah property. The
government will stipulate that he doesn't. We are actually
being efficient by using one witness, killing two birds in one
stone as they say. There are only a few of these documents.
These are documents that the jury should see, and the
government wants to present them as part of its case. The use
of the Mahwah residence is a key issue. We've heard much about
the secret base that Mr. Guo allegedly intended it for. These
documents show it was not a secret base. He was designing it
for his family, so these are documents we want the jury to see.
Could we put a paralegal on the stand to do this instead, I
suppose we could. We thought it'd be efficient by using this
witness. I have no problem asking the question to draw out the
point that Mr. Schirick would like to be drawn out.
MR. SCHIRICK: That's one point. The other point is,
it is an efficiency point. The government has gotten these
documents. We stipulated to them. The government can argue
from the document. We don't need to sit here to read the
documents.
THE COURT: Well, they do have the right to have a
witness read the documents, and it's just now going to be a
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
question of which witness. We either sit here and deal with
him or someone else.
MR. SCHIRICK: Understood, your Honor. But the
alternative would be the documents are in evidence. The
government could close on it. It was the same point that was
made at sidebar to me not that long ago.
MR. FINKEL: You had the whole white paper.
MR. SCHIRICK: I had the opportunity to read it.
THE COURT: In your case, you had shown sections of
the white paper. You also showed sections of that chart, and
you had people read from those documents.
MR. SCHIRICK: Yes, I was referring to the witness
earlier today, the summary witness, but that's fine. Certainly
again if we're talking about efficiency here to have the SEC
witness read from a bunch of decorators documents, that doesn't
seem like the most efficient thing, but I just wanted to point
that out.
THE COURT: So how much more of this do you have?
MR. FINKEL: Maybe a couple of these documents.
However, even though they're just documents, these are very
important documents.
THE COURT: I'm just trying to understand how much
more do we have to endure.
MR. FINKEL: In fact, we're being very efficient. We
were originally going to call Paolo Sozzi who is the individual
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
who interacted with Gladys Chow. We cut that witness to be
efficient. This is the trade in our view instead of having
Paolo Sozzi testify for an hour, maybe cross for a time of
choosing by the defense, we're just going to read a few
documents. I don't have many, maybe three or four.
THE COURT: Time wise?
MR. FINKEL: For the rest of this witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FINKEL: Fifteen-ish minutes, 20 minutes.
THE COURT: That's not so bad. Very good.
(Continued on next page)
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
(In open court)
THE COURT: Sir, if you're reading from a document,
don't read too fast because we have interpreters who need to
translate as you're reading.
BY MR. FINKEL:
Q. Mr. Johnson, does the SEC have anything to do with 675
Ramapo Road in Mahwah, New Jersey?
A. I don't know.
Q. Can we scroll up. Can you read the last line of this email
from Gladys Chow to Paolo beginning, May I know?
A. May I know if you would be available after visiting the New
Jersey house. The client would like to meet with you in the
New York office after that.
Q. Scroll up, please, Ms. Loftus, if you can zoom out of that
so we can see the full email, please.
Do you see the email, Thank you, Paolo, and it says
the client will be available?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you read that?
A. Thank you, Paolo. The client will be available after 1
p.m. on Wednesday so we can go straight from New Jersey, 675
Ramapo Valley Road to the office after the site visit.
Q. That's fine. Thank you.
At the first page, Ms. Loftus, can you zoom in at the
top, the very top. Do you see where it says Taurus Fund, LLC?
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what that is?
A. No.
Q. If we can pull up pro531, please.
Do you see where it says, here are some more comments
from the clients regarding the drawings?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say as number one?
A. Daughter's closet.
Q. And what does it say as number five?
A. Mrs. closet and son's closet.
Q. We can go to the next page, please. This is from Gladys
Chow on Monday December 1, 2022. Can you read where it says,
Also the client is unable to go?
A. Also the client is unable to go to the city this week.
Could you meet him in Greenwich, Connecticut instead.
Q. Keep going. Keep reading, please.
A. The address 373 Taconic Road, Greenwich, New York. Please
let me know at 12:15 Thursday 3 p.m. will work for you. If
not, we could move things around.
Q. That's fine. Thank you. If we could pull up pro-536. If
we can go to the third page.
Here it says, Hi, Paolo. Thank you for the info. The
client would like to order the following, and there's some
information. And it says please deliver the table to the
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4295
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
following addresses. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. 675 Ramapo, 337 Taconic and 3 Columbus Circle. Is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. If we could pull up pro-477. Can you read the sentence
under Hi Paolo?
A. The client would like to convert the family lounge into a
new kitchen and would like Promemoria to design as well.
Attached are the floor plan for the new kitchen and pictures of
how the room looks like now. Please let me know if there are
any questions. Thank you.
Q. You see at the top left it says kitchen floor plan pdf?
A. Yes.
Q. If we can pull up pro-3478. You see on the lower right
side sort of in the bubble, can you read that? It says new
kitchen there. On the left side of the document, what does
that say?
A. Crocker residence Mahwah New Jersey, Crocker residence
Mahwah, New Jersey.
Q. If we can pull up pro486 at page 17.
Can you read that email from Gladys Chow?
A. Hi Paolo, for the contract could you please remove all the
addresses of the property and the contract will be entered
between Promemoria and HCHK Property Management, Inc. Thank
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson- Direct
you.
Q. We could pull up pro-506. Can you read, this is November
5, 2022, here are the clients comments. Can you read them?
A. Spa room put on hold for now until further notice. Son's
closet need lighter and warmer color wood for all furniture.
Need chandelier design for the room. Thank you very much.
Q. If we could pull up pro-541. Can you read below where it
says thank you, Paolo.
A. This defective one is the purple colored one You can see it
to Mahwah, New Jersey location. Regards.
Q. If we can pull up 534. What's at the top it says RE, New
Jersey. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you read that?
A. RE, New Jersey project, updated info.
Q. And then it says, Hi, Paolo, may I know if all the design
plans are read for the client to review or not. Did I read
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. If we could pull up please 508. It says, Hi, paolo, here
are the clients comments on the cinema. Can you read what it
says for chairs?
A. Remove two chairs in the front row and at the armrest. Can
the team add more storage spaces for like phones, keys, etc.
Q. What does it say for ceiling?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson - Cross
A. Add stars throughout the ceiling. Can use the velvet from
the wall as the main material. Client likes the soft furry
touch.
Q. What does it say for screen?
A. Makes it as big as possible please, fully utilize the wall.
Q. And what about overall vibe?
A. Good, but if it could be more futuristic likes in the
universe it would be even better.
Q. Last one, pro-523. Let's try pro-522. We'll do 476. What
does it say on the lower right?
A. Crocker residence, Mahwah, New Jersey.
Q. Can we zoom out of that, please. Can you zoom in the whole
panel of the left. What does that say in the center in red?
A. Madams closet.
Q. Do you know who the madam is?
A. No.
MR. FINKEL: Nothing further.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHIRICK:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Johnson. Just a few questions. Do you
know anything about the building located in Mahwah, New Jersey
that you were just asked to read about?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about a company called Promemoria?
A. I don't.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6PBGUO5 Johnson - Cross
Q. Do you know anything about a building called Crocker
mansion?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about a renovation project related at
that property?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any information or knowledge about what use was
made of that property?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any knowledge or information about who used it?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any idea why Mr. Finkel had you read all those
documents when you know nothing about it?
A. No.
Q. Now, you testified on direct about the SEC's mission,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe you said that among other things the SEC
investigates securities fraud; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, isn't it true that the SEC also investigates potential
issues with securities laws that have nothing to do with fraud?
A. Yes.
Q. And if we could just please bring up GX Stip 19. You
remember that Mr. Finkel read this stipulation a bit earlier to
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson - Cross
you just a few minutes ago?
A. Yes.
Q. And this is as you understand it an agreement stipulation
and agreement between the defense and the government as to
certain facts; is that fair?
A. Yes.
Q. And if we could just go to page paragraph five. And this
says as part of the consent settlement with the SEC,
Mr. Johnson, are you familiar with consent settlements?
A. Not particularly.
Q. Fair enough. As part of the consent settlement with the
SEC, Saraca, GTV and VOG neither admitted nor denied the SEC
civil administrative allegations. The settlement agreement
concerned allegations regarding an unregistered securities
offering and did not allege any fraud by Saraca, GTV or VOG.
The settlement agreement did not include any allegations or
conclusions as to criminal conduct. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you. No further questions.
MR. FINKEL: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step out, and the government may
call its next witness.
(Witness excused)
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor. The government
calls Paul Hinton. Your Honor, we understand that Mr. Kamaraju
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6PBGUO5 Johnson - Cross
is going to be handling the next witness, and we discussed with
defense and we request maybe a five to ten-minute break before
the next witness comes on.
THE COURT: All righty.
MS. MURRAY: And just for the record to discuss a
stipulation that's relevant to Mr. Hinton's testimony.
THE COURT: So you're seeking the break at this time?
MS. MURRAY: Not for the day.
THE COURT: Not for the day. Ten-minute break at this
time.
MS. MURRAY: Yes, thank you.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take a
ten-minute break. Remember you're not permitted to discuss the
case amongst yourselves. Don't
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4301
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
(Recess)
THE COURT: Please have the jurors brought in.
(Jury present)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
And you may call your witness again.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor. The government
calls Paul Hinton.
(Witness sworn)
THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it, and
speak into the microphone.
THE WITNESS: Paul Hinton. P-A-U-L, H-I-N-T-O-N.
THE COURT: All right. Sir, you're going to have to
do better than that. I need for you to speak up.
THE WITNESS: I will.
THE COURT: Good. Go ahead.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
PAUL HINTON,
called as a witness by the Government,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hinton.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. And if you could actually pull the microphone directly in
front of you, that would help. The acoustics are not great.
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4302
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Could you please describe your educational background.
A. I have an undergraduate degree from Oxford University in
England and a master's degree from Harvard Kennedy School of
Government.
Q. What subject matter is your undergraduate degree?
A. It's an engineering science degree.
Q. And what is the subject matter of your master's degree?
A. It's a public policy degree that covers statistics,
economics, and finance.
Q. Are you currently employed?
A. I am.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work at the Brattle Group.
Q. What is the Brattle Group?
A. The Brattle Group is an economic consulting firm that
provides expert testimony in a range of settings, including
litigation and arbitration.
Q. How long have you been with the Brattle Group?
A. Over ten years.
Q. Mr. Hinton, if I refer to the Brattle Group as Brattle,
will you understand what I'm referring to?
A. I will.
Q. Where did you work prior to Brattle?
A. Prior to Brattle, I worked at another similar economic
consulting firm for 18 years.
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4303
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. What is your title at Brattle?
A. I'm a principal.
Q. What generally are your duties and responsibilities as a
principal at Brattle?
A. Well, other than the professional development of staff, I
lead projects where I am either the expert who is going to
testify or I'm supporting another expert who is going to
testify.
Q. Do you yourself conduct financial analysis in the course of
your work at Brattle?
A. I do.
Q. Have you testified in financial cases in the past?
A. I have.
Q. Has that testimony been on both the defense side and on the
side of the plaintiff or the government?
A. It has.
Q. Has that testimony included expert testimony and summary
witness testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Hinton, did there come a time when the government
contacted Brattle regarding this case?
A. Yes.
Q. Around when was that?
A. It was around the——March or the summer last year.
Q. What, if anything, did the government ask Brattle to do
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
with respect to this case?
A. At that time they said they expected to have a large volume
of financial records that they wanted us to review and
summarize.
Q. Did the government in fact engage Brattle to provide
litigative services on this case?
A. Yes.
Q. During approximately what time period has Brattle conducted
those services on this case?
A. Well, we officially started summer last year, but started
working more intensively at the beginning of this year.
Q. And is Brattle engaged with the government pursuant to a
contract relating to its work on this case?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the approximate dollar amount that Brattle has
billed or will be paid for its work on this case?
A. About $2 million.
Q. Does that include analysis that has been conducted prior to
your testimony today?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that also include bills for your testimony here today?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Hinton, what was the scope of work of the project that
the government engaged Brattle to do in this case?
A. Well, initially in the contract, it was——there were some
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
work streams that were contemplated that included looking at
data from devices and, as I said, reviewing bank records,
amongst other things.
Q. Focusing in turn on some of the work that Brattle has done,
did there come a time when the government provided certain
agreements and corporate documents to Brattle in this case?
A. It did.
Q. Generally speaking, what type of agreements or documents
were those?
A. They were a range of different types of documents. Many of
them were service contracts; others were documents indicating
loan agreements or investment amounts.
Q. In addition to those corporate agreements or documents, did
the government provide Brattle with other types of records or
exhibits in this case?
A. Yes, bank records.
Q. And what approximate volume of bank records did the
government provide to Brattle in this case?
A. Well, there were thousands of——of documents in the form of
pdfs and Excel files representing over 200,000 transactions.
Q. What, if anything, did the government engage Brattle to do
with respect to those bank records?
A. Well, initially it was just to identify what the documents
were that were in the production and which entities they
related to and which bank accounts.
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4306
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could please pull up
for the witness what's been marked for identification as
Government Exhibit Z27.
Q. Mr. Hinton, do you recognize this exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you review it in advance of your testimony?
A. I did.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers
Government Exhibit Z27.
MR. KAMARAJU: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit Z27 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: If we could publish, please.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Mr. Hinton, can you describe for the jury what information
is reflected on this page of Government Exhibit Z27, as it
relates to Brattle's work with respect to the bank records in
this case.
A. Yes. This just summarizes the volume of materials that we
identified and then later the subset of those records that we
processed to extract information.
Q. And when you say Processed Accounts in the first column,
what does that mean with respect to work that Brattle did?
A. Well, by processed, I mean, we had to take each of these
various bank documents that included financial transactions and
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
extract the relevant transaction details from them and put them
into an Excel spreadsheet.
Q. Looking at the last row here, Mr. Hinton, Number of Banks,
approximately how many unique banks did the government provide
records from in this case?
A. Well, we identified 72 different banks in the overall
document production that we were sent.
Q. For those 72 banks, the records from those banks, can you
describe for the jury how, if at all, the format of the bank
records differed.
A. Well, some of——yeah, some of the bank records were just
ordinary bank statements that are very similar to the type of
bank statement that any individual would have from their bank,
and those would be pdfs, and they usually have the summary of
the monthly activity at the top and then you show all the
transactions and the balance. But there were a lot of other
types of documents too. One other common format was a record
of what's called wire transactions, and those are transactions
that occur between banks, and those records could come in the
form of, you know, detailed statements that were pdfs but they
could also come in the form of a spreadsheet where there were
many columns of data that described different features of each
of the wire transfers. There were also, in some statements,
images of checks, so just the canceled checks or the checks
after they had been processed and received at a bank. And
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
there were other miscellaneous bank records also.
Q. And looking again at the first column, Processed Accounts,
approximately how many files of bank documents did Brattle
process in the course of its work on this case?
A. So over 2,000. So 2,173.
Q. And looking at the next item there, Number of Entities,
those bank records were in the names of approximately how many
different entities or individuals?
A. Well, there were about 100——well, 119 different entities
for whom we processed bank records.
Q. And those 119 entities for the processed accounts, how many
bank accounts did those represent?
A. There were 450 bank accounts for the 219 [sic] entities.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could go to the next
slide, please.
Q. Mr. Hinton, can you describe for the jury, first of all,
who provided the categories that are reflected on this slide.
A. The government.
Q. And did the government inform or advise Brattle what
entities to place within each of these categories?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And that was a determination made by the government; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So looking here, and this is Identified Accounts. Can you
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
just explain the difference between Identified Accounts and
Processed Accounts.
A. Yes. The——initially we received a large volume of
documents, and we had to identify what those documents were,
which entities were named in them, which banks, and which of
them were actually documents that contained financial
transaction information, so that was the identification phase,
and the government later indicated which of those identified
bank records they wanted us to process.
Q. And reading across this slide, first of all, with respect
to the Rule of Law category, do you have any independent
understanding of what the Rule of Law is?
A. No.
Q. How many identified accounts were there for Rule of Law?
A. 20.
Q. Looking next, GTV/VOG, do you have any independent
knowledge of what GTV is?
A. No.
Q. Or VOG?
A. No.
Q. How many identified bank accounts were there that went into
the government's category of GTV or VOG?
A. We identified 49.
Q. And then Farms, aside from the common understanding of the
word, do you know what Farms means in the context of this case?
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. No.
Q. Did the government provide that category and identify what
entities or individuals fell within that category?
A. It did.
Q. And how many identified bank accounts were there under the
Farms category?
A. 85.
Q. Looking now at G|CLUBS and Crane, first, do you have any
independent knowledge of G|CLUBS?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any independent knowledge of what Crane is?
A. No.
Q. How many identified bank accounts fell within the
government's category of G|CLUBS or Crane?
A. 82.
Q. And finally, Mr. Hinton, Himalaya Exchange, do you know
what the Himalaya Exchange is?
A. No.
Q. How many identified bank accounts fell within that
category?
A. 27.
MS. MURRAY: If we could go to the next slide, please,
Ms. Loftus.
Actually, let's go back one for a moment.
Q. Mr. Hinton, can you explain the process by which Brattle
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
extracted data from the bank records that the government
provided.
A. Certainly. Well, there were two different processes——one
for data that was already in a spreadsheet and a different
process for the——the documents that came as pdfs, so the pdfs
had to be OCR'd, so the optical character recognition run, so
that the fields of information could be copied from those
documents, and then computer programs were used to extract
those fields of information and put them into a spreadsheet.
So at that point we had two——we had all the records in
spreadsheet form and we then just had to organize the fields of
information for each account so that they were formatted in a
consistent way across all the banks and all the accounts.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we take this down,
please, and let's put up for the witness only Government
Exhibit Z28.
Q. Mr. Hinton, do you recognize Exhibit Z28?
A. I do.
Q. At a high level, what information does it reflect?
A. It lists all the bank——banks down the left-hand side, and
then in the columns, there's a count of the number of different
bank accounts that——that we identified that are associated with
each of the categories that were on the prior chart. I think
there are also a couple of other categories on this particular
chart, but the point here is that it dem——it records the
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4312
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
breakdown or the composition of all the bank accounts that we
identified that were classified into all the categories the
government gave us.
Q. And Mr. Hinton, did you review Government Exhibit Z28 in
advance of your testimony today?
A. I did.
Q. Did you confirm that the information contained within this
summary chart is accurate?
A. I did.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers Z28.
MR. KAMARAJU: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit Z28 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: Could we please publish.
Q. All right. Mr. Hinton, now that the jury can see it——it's
a bit small. We'll zoom in on various portions.
MS. MURRAY: First, Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom in on
the top portion, to include the first few rows but all of the
column titles as well.
Q. So Mr. Hinton, looking across this document, the first few
columns, those reflect the categories that we just saw on the
prior slide; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And those are categories that the government defined and
provided to Brattle?
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4313
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. It did.
Q. Looking at the column titled ACA Capital, Hamilton (William
Je), what information, generally speaking, did the government
define for that category?
A. It identified specific entities that should be categorized
in that category, and those included entities ACA Capital and
Hamilton.
Q. And do you know who William Je is personally?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any independent knowledge of ACA Capital or
Hamilton?
A. No.
Q. Looking at the next column, it's indicating Family Members
with an asterisk. Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. And the final column, Family Offices with two asterisks.
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom out of this
and go to the bottom, please, of this page. And zoom in on the
bottom left portion.
Q. Mr. Hinton, for purposes of this summary chart, how is the
Family category defined, the government's Family category?
A. It is defined to include all accounts for Mei Guo, Qiang
Guo, William Je, and Sing Ting Rong.
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4314
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. And do you know who any of those individuals is,
Mr. Hinton——Mei Guo, Qiang Guo, William Je, or Sing Ting Rong?
A. No.
Q. And then Family Offices category that the government
provided, Mr. Hinton, what entities is that defined to include?
A. The government told us to include the entities Lamp
Capital, Golden Spring, Hudson Diamond, Lexington Property, and
Greenwich Land.
Q. And same question with respect to those entities. Do you
have any understanding or knowledge of those entities?
A. No.
MS. MURRAY: All right. Let's zoom out again,
Ms. Loftus. And if we could kind of zoom in on the top half of
the chart or so.
Q. I just want to take a few examples here, Mr. Hinton.
Looking, for example, at Bank of America, which is the second
row, if you could just read across for the jury and read the
number of identified accounts and the relevant category that
those accounts fell under.
A. Yes. We identified bank account records for Bank of
America accounts. For Rule of Law, there were four; in the
Farms category, there were 11; in the GTV/VOG category, there
were four; there were eight for Family Members; and that came
to a total of 27.
Q. Taking another example here, let's look at JPMC, or
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4315
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
JPMorgan Chase, and read across the row the bank accounts that
were identified for the various categories where there were
accounts.
A. Yes. For JPMorgan Chase there were 25 Farms accounts; 10
GTV/VOG accounts; five G|CLUBS/Crane accounts; and five Family
Office accounts; for a total of 45 different accounts.
MS. MURRAY: Let's zoom out of that, please,
Ms. Loftus.
And if we could zoom in now on the bottom portion of
this, down to the end.
Q. Taking just one more example, Mr. Hinton, Silvergate Bank,
if you could read across there.
MS. MURRAY: And Ms. Loftus, maybe we could scroll up
for a moment for Mr. Hinton so he can see which column that is.
Q. There were 27 identified accounts in which category at
Silvergate Bank?
A. It's the ACA Capital, Hamilton column that has 27
Silvergate Bank accounts.
Q. And just looking at the totals here, Mr. Hinton, what was
the total number of identified accounts for these various
categories that are reflected on this chart?
A. 422 different accounts.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, Ms. Loftus. We can take that
down.
Your Honor, at this time the government would like to
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4316
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
offer various exhibits pursuant to stipulations between the
parties.
First, Ms. Loftus, if we could please pull up Stip 8,
which is already admitted and in evidence.
Pursuant to Stip 8, the government offers the
following exhibits, which are reflected in parts of column B:
Government Exhibits GX BR300-GX BR356;
GX 3200-GX 3202; GX 3210-GX 3213; GX 3214; GX 3204-GX 3207;
GX BR900-GX BR931; GX2001-GX 2717; and GX BR1001-GX BR1031.
The government offers those exhibits pursuant to this stip.
MR. KAMARAJU: No objection.
THE COURT: They're admitted.
(Government's Exhibits BR300-BR356; 3200-3202;
3210-3213; 3214; 3204-3207; BR900-BR931; 2001-2717;
BR1001-BR1031 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, if you could
please now pull up GX Stip 14. Again, this is a stipulation
between the parties that has been admitted.
Your Honor, in the interest of time and everyone's
attention, I'll just reference the government exhibits that are
cited in this stipulation and offer them pursuant to the
stipulation. This stipulation indicates that the parties have
agreed that the government exhibits listed in column B were
lawfully obtained by the government, they're authentic records
of the entity listed in column A, they were made at or near the
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4317
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
time by, or information transmitted by a person with knowledge,
they were kept in the regular course, and it was the regular
practice of the entity to make the records. The government
exhibits listed in column B are bank records from producing
parties that are banks. Pursuant to this stipulation, the
government offers all of the government exhibits listed in
column B.
THE COURT: They're admitted.
(Government's Exhibits Column B of Stip 14 received in
evidence)
MS. MURRAY: Finally, your Honor, the government would
offer at this time Government Exhibit Stip 22 for admission.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit Stip 22 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: And pursuant to Government Exhibit
Stip 22, the government offers the following additional bank
records.
Government Exhibit Stip 22 is a stipulation between
the parties agreeing that the Government Exhibits cited in
column B are records maintained in the course of the regular
business of the entities listed in column A, which are banks
that are producing parties. Pursuant to Government Exhibit
Stip 22, the government offers all of the government exhibits
cited in column B of Stip 22.
THE COURT: They are admitted.
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4318
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
(Government's Exhibits Column B of Stip 22 received in
evidence)
MS. MURRAY: Thank you. We can take that down,
Ms. Loftus.
So if we could go back now, please, to GX Z27.
And let's go to slide 3.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Mr. Hinton, can you describe for the jury what is reflected
on this summary chart.
A. This chart lists the names of the entities that were
classified as Family Office entities and the number of
processed bank accounts for each.
Q. And to be clear, the processed bank accounts, is it correct
that those are accounts that Brattle extracted the data from——
A. That's correct.
Q. ——bank records?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And we could go——actually, let's look at this
for a moment.
How many processed bank accounts were there for Lamp
Capital, LLC?
A. 25.
Q. What about for Greenwich Land, LLC?
A. Three.
Q. So in total for these five Family Office entities under the
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4319
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
government's category, how many processed bank accounts were
there?
A. 52.
MS. MURRAY: Let's go to the next slide, please,
Ms. Loftus.
And if we could scroll up a bit.
And just zoom so we can see the full summary chart.
Q. Mr. Hinton, generally speaking, what information is
reflected on this slide?
A. This is a similar chart that lists all the processed
accounts for the individual entities that were categorized in
the Farm group.
Q. And those were categories that the government provided; is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And is it correct that this summary chart lists only
processed accounts for the Farm entities that are listed here?
A. Yes, just those for which we extracted data.
MS. MURRAY: If we could scroll down a bit,
Ms. Loftus.
Q. For those Farm accounts for which Brattle extracted data,
how many accounts were there?
A. 55.
Q. And looking at the fourth row here, what is the name of
that Farm entity?
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4320
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. Maywind Trading, LLC.
MS. MURRAY: We can take that down, Ms. Loftus.
Q. Now, Mr. Hinton, you mentioned that in addition to bank
accounts, Brattle also received loan agreements and other
documents from the government; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did the government ask Brattle to conduct a certain
analysis of some of those agreements?
A. It did.
Q. Did that include a summary analysis of Maywind Trading, LLC
loan agreements?
A. It did.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could please go to
Government Exhibit Z29, just for the witness for the moment.
Q. Mr. Hinton, do you recognize Z29?
A. I do.
Q. At a high level, what is it?
A. It's the first page of a long list of all of the loan
agreements that we identified for Maywind Trading, LLC, which
was——and it's labeled here Phoenix Farm.
Q. And did you review this exhibit in advance of your
testimony today?
A. I did.
Q. Is the information in Z29 accurate?
A. It is.
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers
Government Exhibit Z29.
MR. KAMARAJU: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit Z29 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: Can we please publish, Ms. Loftus.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Can you read the title, now that the jury can see it, of
this exhibit, please, Mr. Hinton.
A. It says Phoenix Farm, and in brackets it says Maywind
Trading LLC, Loan Agreements.
Q. Do you know what the Phoenix Farm is, Mr. Hinton?
A. I do not.
Q. Now looking at this summary chart that's contained within
this exhibit, the farthest-right column, what information is
reflected there under the column titled GX?
A. Those were all the Government Exhibit numbers that
correspond to the loan agreements.
MS. MURRAY: If we could focus on the top portion,
Ms. Loftus, before the table.
Q. Mr. Hinton, how many Maywind Trading, LLC or Phoenix Farm
loan agreements did Brattle identify in the materials the
government provided?
A. We identified 686 distinct loan agreements.
Q. Did Brattle evaluate or analyze those loan agreements to
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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determine whether they were signed?
A. We did.
Q. How many of those 686 loan agreements were signed by the
borrower, or the Phoenix Farm (Maywind Trading LLC)?
A. None of them had a signature for the borrower.
Q. And how many of those 686 loan agreements were signed by
the lender, or the individuals who were the counterparties to
those agreements?
A. They were all signed.
MS. MURRAY: All right. If we could zoom out of that,
please.
I just want to look at one or two examples, if we
could.
Ms. Loftus, let's go down, please, to——thank you.
Actually, let's go one more page down.
And——perfect.
Q. So looking at one of the entries for December 3, 2020,
Mr. Hinton, do you see that the amount is listed as Not
Applicable on this summary chart?
A. There are some entries that say NA, that's correct.
MS. MURRAY: If we could go to that source exhibit,
Ms. Loftus.
So this is December 3, 2020. That's Government
Exhibit 2502, which is in evidence.
If we could focus on the top portion here, Ms. Loftus.
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4323
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. Mr. Hinton, what is listed for the borrower on this loan
agreement?
A. It says Phoenix Farm, and in brackets, it says Maywind
Trading, LLC.
Q. And who is listed as the lender?
A. The lender is listed as Cai Yanting. Excuse my
pronunciation.
Q. There's a certain field that's called Lender's Phoenix Farm
Code. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. What information is reflected there?
A. It's just an alphanumeric code.
Q. And can you read that, please.
A. FH1-1560.
Q. And this loan agreement is dated. What is the date?
A. It's dated December 3, 2020.
Q. Under Section 1, Terms, can you read (a) Use of Proceeds.
A. It says, "The loan proceeds advanced under this agreement
is for the general working capital purposes of the borrower."
Q. Looking at item (b) Loan Amount, what loan amount is
reflected on this agreement?
A. Well, there's a little blank space in the sentence that is
empty in this particular agreement.
Q. What is the interest rate that's reflected here under 1(c)?
A. 3 percent per annum.
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4324
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. Payable when?
A. It is payable in full on the final maturity date.
Q. And then (d), Final Maturity Date, what's reflected there?
A. "The final maturity date is 36 months after the effective
date."
MS. MURRAY: If we could zoom out of this, please,
Ms. Loftus.
And let's go down a few pages.
Q. So there are initials on the bottom, Mr. Hinton. Do you
see that? Oh.
A. I see that there are some typed——three letters are typed at
the bottom of each page, which appear to be——well, they——the
first two of which match——match the first name and the last
name of the lender.
MS. MURRAY: All right. Let's keep going through the
next few pages, please, Ms. Loftus.
Q. On this page, Mr. Hinton, does it appear that this document
is signed?
A. Yeah, in the signature area of the agreement, there are
some Chinese characters.
Q. And that's for which party to this agreement?
A. It's for the——for Cai Yanting, who is the lender.
Q. Is there a signature on the line that is associated with
Phoenix Farm (Maywind Trading, LLC)?
A. No. The line is blank.
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4325
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. And Mr. Hinton, this is signed even though there's no loan
amount listed; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MS. MURRAY: If we can go back, Ms. Loftus, to
Government Exhibit Z29. Thank you.
And if we could go to the last page, please.
Q. Mr. Hinton, for the 686 Phoenix Farm loan agreements that
are reflected in this summary chart, what is the cumulative
dollar amount associated with those loan agreements?
A. The sum of the loan amounts for these agreements is
$23,158,757.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, Ms. Loftus. We can take that
down now.
Q. Mr. Hinton, since the government engaged Brattle in
connection with this case, has the government provided guidance
to Brattle regarding the analysis that it was requesting?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. Did that include calls and meetings to discuss Brattle's
findings and to provide, for example, categories of information
for Brattle to characterize certain records?
A. It did.
Q. Did the government provide edits or other feedback to
Brattle regarding its analysis and findings?
A. It did.
Q. Does Brattle's work product, including the exhibits we've
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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
looked at so far today, reflect certain of the government's
feedback and instruction?
A. They do.
Q. Now, Mr. Hinton, besides the analysis you've been
describing that Brattle performed in this case, your testimony
today, and your preparation for that testimony, did you have
any involvement in this case?
A. I did.
Q. What was the degree of your involvement in this case,
besides the analysis you described, your testimony today, and
your preparation for that testimony?
A. Could you repeat the question.
Q. Sure. What was your involvement in this case besides the
analysis that Brattle performed, your testimony today, and your
preparation for the testimony?
A. Well, that was——those are the main elements of——those are
the elements of——of my work. I performed——I supervised the
staff to perform the analysis, I prepared for testimony, and
I'm delivering the testimony today. That was the scope of our
engagement.
Q. And Mr. Hinton, did you review all of the evidence that the
government has collected in this case or did you just review
the records and exhibits that the government provided to
Brattle?
A. Only the documents that were provided to Brattle.
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4327
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. Did Brattle have any role in determining what exhibits or
records the government would provide to Brattle?
A. No.
Q. And you mentioned the process of extracting data from the
bank records that the government provided. How, if at all, did
Brattle catalog or categorize that extracted data?
A. Well, we used the——the category——the categorizations that
we discussed earlier to identify not just the bank accounts but
the individual transactions based on which entities were
involved and what category they were in, and then as I've
mentioned before, we——we took the transaction data from each of
the different sources and organized them into a single database
so that they could be looked at together.
Q. And what was your role, if any, with respect to that
database that contained the bank——the extracted bank record
data?
A. Well, I designed the database structure and I supervised
and directed the work to——along the way to populate it.
Q. At a high level, can you describe for the jury how that
database operated.
A. Well, it was really——it's a more secure way of organizing
the hundreds of different bank account records, sets of
records, than just keeping them in a spreadsheet, so it enabled
us to organize all the different banks' transaction records in
the same format and also capture the categories that the
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4328
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
government had given us and associate it with every single
transaction along with the reference numbers telling us which
document they came from.
Q. And when you say the reference numbers reflecting the
document, did those documents link to identified government
exhibits in this case?
A. Yes, that means that every single transaction, of which
there are over 200,000 in the database, can be linked back to a
source document that is a GX——has a GX number in this case.
Q. And in preparing for your testimony today, Mr. Hinton, did
you review and verify the accuracy of the various summary
charts we've looked at so far?
A. I did.
Q. And did you do that in part by going to the database that
Brattle maintained of bank records?
A. Yes. In fact, the individual transactions represented on
each chart were taken from the database, and I was able to then
identify which government exhibit the data came from and look
at the underlying source document to verify the data.
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we please put up what's
been marked for identification as Government Exhibit Z26.
And that's just for the witness.
And if we could scroll through a few pages.
Q. Mr. Hinton, do you recognize Z26?
A. I do.
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4329
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. Did you assist in preparing Government Exhibit Z26?
A. I did.
Q. Does Z26 contain a summary of certain bank records that
Brattle reviewed in connection with this case?
A. Yes, reviewed and processed.
MS. MURRAY: And if we could go to the last page,
please, Ms. Loftus.
Q. Looking at the last page of this presentation, does this
reflect the government exhibits that are the source documents
that support the data contained within Z26?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you reviewed the information in Z26 and the source
documents cited on this slide, Mr. Hinton?
A. I have.
Q. Have you confirmed the information is accurate?
A. I have.
MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers
Government Exhibit Z26.
MR. KAMARAJU: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit Z26 received in evidence)
MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could go to the first
slide, please, and publish to the jury.
BY MS. MURRAY:
Q. Mr. Hinton, what is the title of Government Exhibit Z26?
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4330
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. Bank Record Summaries.
Q. Excellent.
MS. MURRAY: Let's go to the next slide, please.
Q. What information, generally, is reflected on this chart,
Mr. Hinton?
A. Well, this is the result of summing up the value of all the
transactions in the database, so that's all the transactions we
processed and categorized according to the categories that the
government gave us for GTV, Farms, G|CLUBS, and Himalaya.
Q. And the top of this chart, Mr. Hinton, says Sources of
Funds. Did the government provide Brattle with instruction
regarding how and whether to categorize certain transactions as
Sources of Funds?
A. It did.
Q. Focusing on, for example, G|CLUBS, what was some of the
instruction that the government provided to Brattle regarding
what type of transactions should be tagged or categorized as
Sources of Funds that flow through to G|CLUBS?
A. So these are transactions that come from individuals, not
from entities, and only those individuals who aren't associated
with——in some way with any of the——the entities that are listed
on the chart.
Q. What, if anything, did the government direct Brattle with
respect to the dollar amounts of transactions that should be
included within G|CLUBS Sources of Funds?
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4331
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. So for certain accounts there were——we observed there were
amounts in round numbers of 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000, and
50,000, and the government instructed us that any transactions
for those amounts, plus or minus a hundred dollars, from
individuals, should be classified——or even if they weren't from
identified individuals, those amounts should be classified as
Sources of Funds.
Q. Did the government explain to you why it instructed Brattle
to tag transactions in those amounts as Sources of Funds for
G|CLUBS?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any independent understanding why the
government gave that instruction?
A. No.
Q. What discretion, if any, did Brattle have in deviating from
the government's definition of Sources of Funds for purposes of
this summary analysis?
A. We did not have any discretion.
Q. Reading along the amounts here, what is the sum dollar
amount reflected in this summary exhibit of Sources of Funds
that flowed through to the government's category of GTV or VOG?
A. $411 million.
Q. What about the Farms?
A. $110 million.
Q. And what amount went through to G|CLUBS?
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4332
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. $240 million.
Q. And finally, what amount went through to the Himalaya
Exchange?
A. $517 million.
Q. And that's for a combined total of what amount, as
reflected here for purposes of this summary?
A. $1.3 billion.
MS. MURRAY: And Ms. Loftus, we can go to the next
slide.
Q. Looking at the top of this, Mr. Hinton, what is the title
of this slide?
A. The title is GTV/VOG: Overview.
Q. And is that one of the categories that the government
defined for Brattle?
A. Yes.
Q. Looking at the Sources of Funds here, there are three
entities listed, kind of at the bottom of the slide. Do you
see those?
A. I do.
Q. Under those entities, there are parentheticals and there
are some letters and numbers. What information, if any, does
that reflect?
A. The numbers and letters represent particular bank accounts.
Q. And so the letters, what about the bank accounts do the
letters reflect?
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4333
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
A. So the number——the letters are just an acronym or shorthand
for the name of the bank. So BOA stands for Bank of America.
Q. And then the numbers that are listed throughout these
slides for different bank accounts, what portion, if any, of
the relevant account number are those?
A. Those are the last four digits of the bank account number.
Q. So looking at this overview slide, how much money from the
Sources of Funds that were identified went to Voice of Guo
Media, Inc., between April 20, 2020, and October 13, 2020?
A. 72 million——72.9 million went into the two——the Bank of
America and Wells Fargo bank——Voice of Guo Media accounts on
this chart.
Q. And looking in the middle, how much went into those two
JPMorgan accounts held in the name of Saraca Media Group, Inc.?
A. 286.9 million.
Q. And on the right, how much went into the Capital One and
the JPMorgan bank accounts held in the name of GTV Media Group,
Inc.?
A. 29.6 million.
Q. And over what time period did that 29.6 million go into the
GTV Media Group, Inc.'s bank account?
A. Between May 11, 2020, and June 12, 2020, that those amounts
went into the two bank accounts shown there.
MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, the next slide,
please.
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4334
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. Mr. Hinton, what is the title of this slide?
A. This slide is titled GTV/VOG: Select Flows.
Q. Generally speaking, at a high level, what does this summary
chart or summary slide reflect?
A. It shows the dollar——aggregate dollar amount of flows of
funds between particular bank accounts over certain time
periods.
Q. And Mr. Hinton, who selected which bank account to include
on this summary flow slide?
A. The government.
Q. If we could just follow through a few examples.
Looking at the second arrow on the top left from
Sources of Funds going to the Wells Fargo bank account in the
name of Voice of Guo Media, Inc., what is the dollar amount
that goes to that account from Sources of Funds?
A. $46.3 million.
Q. And then looking at the next select flow from that account,
where does $15 million in the form of a cashier check go from
that account?
A. It goes from Wells Fargo to JPMorgan at Saraca Media Group.
Q. And from that JPMorgan account ending in 5601, where then
do we see a flow of $125.5 million going?
A. To Saraca Media Group at JPMorgan 2038.
Q. And over what time period?
A. From June the 3rd to June 10th.
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4335
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6 Hinton - Direct
Q. Of what year?
A. 2020.
Q. And then let's look at the outflows from that Saraca Media
Group, Inc. account, the JPMorgan 2038.
First, on the left, what do we see going straight down
on June 5, 2020?
A. There's a transfer of 100 million on June 5th to Hayman
Hong Kong Opportunities Fund.
Q. Mr. Hinton, do you know what the Hayman Hong Kong
Opportunities Fund is?
A. I do not.
Q. All right. And then let's look at another outflow from
that JPMorgan 2038 account, over——going to the right on
June 9th of 2020. What amount do we see listed there?
A. $38 million on June 9, 2020.
Q. Now looking down the center of this slide, Mr. Hinton, just
briefly, can you follow through the Sources of Funds that go
down the center of the slide directly to the Saraca Media
JPMorgan account ending in 5601 and then on through to the GTV
Media account at Citibank ending in 6691.
A. Yes. Starting in February, on the 22nd, of 2019, over the
following year and a half or so, there's 275.9 million in funds
from Sources of Funds, as they've so been defined, into Saraca
Media Group's JPMorgan account ending in 5601. Then on June 3,
2000 [sic], there's a 200 million transfer from that Saraca
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4336
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6
Media Group account to GTV Media Group, at Citigroup account
6691.
Q. And just to be clear, Mr. Hinton, what year was that, the
June 3rd transaction of 200 million from Saraca at JPM to GTV
at Citi?
A. In 2020.
Q. If we can go to the next——actually, stay on this slide for
a moment, please.
Looking at the far right, Mr. Hinton, do you see a
name that's in the far right bottom box? There's a company
name and a PNC?
A. I do.
Q. What is that name?
A. Lawall & Mitchell.
Q. Do you know what Lawall & Mitchell is?
A. I know that it's a law firm.
THE COURT: All righty. We need to stop because it's
5:00.
Members of the jury, don't discuss the case amongst
yourselves or with anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss
the case in your presence. Don't read, watch, or listen to
anything from any source having to do with the subject matter
of this trial. Have a good evening.
(Jury not present)
THE COURT: Sir, you may step out.
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4337
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6
THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
THE COURT: Don't discuss your testimony.
THE WITNESS: I will not.
(Witness not present)
THE COURT: You may be seated.
Is there anything further before we break?
MR. KAMARAJU: Not from the defense, your Honor.
MR. FINKEL: Just a scheduling update from the
government.
After Mr. Hinton, the government believes it has two
witnesses left. After those two witnesses, the government
would like to play a handful of videos or show a few documents
that the jury has not yet seen but are already in evidence, and
I just want to make sure that's okay with the Court that we
don't have a witness on the stand for that?
THE COURT: If they're in evidence, that's fine.
MR. FINKEL: Okay. We'll plan to do that.
Just for the Court's knowledge and for defense
counsel's knowledge, after Mr. Hinton, who approximately has 30
to 45 minutes left on direct, the direct of the two remaining
witnesses, one is probably just north of an hour and then the
last witness we would estimate as around 90 minutes, depending
on how quick the technology moves. It's mostly cellphone
extractions, text messages, things like that.
So that's sort of where the government is in its case.
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4338
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
O6P1GUO6
I just wanted the Court to be aware of that. So we expect to
rest tomorrow, assuming crosses are not voluminous.
Outside of that, your Honor, absent any questions, the
government is just inquiring about the week of July 8th. With
the understanding now we're sitting full days on July 2nd and
3rd, on July 8th, if things move at the clip that the defense
has predicted and the government certainly hopes, I think we'll
be in jury addresses and deliberations. Is the Court planning
to sit a full day for——I know for deliberations, your Honor
said it would. Is the same for jury deliberations? In other
words——sorry. I apologize. I'm a little tired. Is the week
of July 8th going to be a full 9-to-5 week as well?
THE COURT: So for summations and deliberations, we
will sit a full day.
MR. FINKEL: Okay. That's helpful. Thank you, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Have a good evening.
MR. KAMARAJU: You too, your Honor.
MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.
(Adjourned to June 26, 2024, at 9:00 a.m.) permit
anyone to discuss the case in your presence. Don't read, watch
or listen to anything that touches on the subject of this case.
THE LAW CLERK: Jury exiting.
(Recess)
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4339
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
INDEX OF EXAMINATION
Examination of: Page
DOUGLAS SKALKA
4075Direct By Mr. Fergenson . . . . . . . . . . .
4092Cross By Mr. Kamaraju . . . . . . . . . . . .
4148Redirect By Mr. Fergenson . . . . . . . . . .
4163Recross By Mr. Kamaraju . . . . . . . . . . .
4165Redirect By Mr. Fergenson . . . . . . . . . .
4165Recross By Mr. Kamaraju . . . . . . . . . . .
OWEN FOLEY
4166Direct By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . . .
4184Cross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . . .
DANIEL COPELAND
4210Direct By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . . .
4236Cross By Ms. Shroff . . . . . . . . . . . . .
4255Redirect By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . .
4258Recross By Ms. Shroff . . . . . . . . . . . .
STEPHEN JOHNSON
4265Direct By Mr. Finkel . . . . . . . . . . . . .
4297Cross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . . .
PAUL HINTON
4301 Direct By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . . .
GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No. Received
4169 1628, 1630, 1631, 1632, 1634, 1636, . . . . .
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4340
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
1637, 1639, 1643, 1644, and
1646
4272 SM-11, SM-12, SM-17, SM-18, SM-19, . . . . .
SM-21, SM-73, SM-96, SM-126,
SM-127, SM-129, SM-130,
SM-133, SM-147, SM-149,
SM-151, SM-155, SM-156,
SM-159, SM-170, SM-176,
SM-178, SM-181, SM-210,
SM-217, SM-218, SM-224,
SM-226, SM-235, SM-252,
SM-277, SM-283, SM-296 through
SM-299
4284[Exhibits]*[received] . . . . . . . . . . . .
4316 BR300-BR356; 3200-3202; 3210-3213; . . . . .
3214; 3204-3207; BR900-BR931;
2001-2717; BR1001-BR1031
4317 Column B of Stip 14 . . . . . . . . . . . .
4318 Column B of Stip 22 . . . . . . . . . . . .
Z-13 4170 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
GX Stip 19 4282 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Stip 22 4317 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Z26 4329 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Z27 4306 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Z28 4312 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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4341
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
Z29 4321 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
3450 4216 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
DEFENDANT EXHIBITS
Exhibit No. Received
7006 4155 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
70777 4251 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Translated Text(简体中文翻译)
【中文翻译 仅供参考】
O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 1 / 193页
美国纽约南区法院
-------------------------------------------------------x
美国政府
控方 23 Cr. 118 (AT)
郭文贵
辩方
-------------------------------------------------------x
纽约州纽约市，
2024年 6月 25日
上午 9:00
庭前:
尊敬的阿娜丽莎-托雷斯法官大人
地区法官
-陪审团-
出庭律师:
达米安-威廉姆斯
纽约南区美国联邦检察官
代表：迈卡·F·费根森
瑞安·B·芬克
贾斯廷·霍顿
朱莉安娜·N·莫里
助理美国检察官
萨布丽娜·P·施洛夫
被告律师
PRYOR CASHMAN LLP
被告律师
代表：西德哈达·卡马拉珠
马修·巴尔坎
ALSTON & BIRD LLP
被告律师
代表：E·斯科特·舒里克
出席人员：
伊莎贝尔-洛夫特斯，美国国家航空航天局律师助理专家
罗伯特-斯托特，联邦调查局特工
豪尔赫-萨拉萨尔，辩护律师助理
黄拓，口译员（普通话）
丰实，口译员（普通话）
余马克-唐，口译员（普通话）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 2 / 193页 （审判继续进行；陪审团还未出席） 法官说：早上好。请表明你们的身份。 费根森律师说：米佧·费根森，瑞恩·芬克，朱莉· 莫里和 Justin Horton 代表美国政府。 施洛夫律师说：早上好，法官大人。我是 Sabrina Shroff，代表郭文贵先生。郭先生站在我的左 边。 法官说：请坐。双方是否有任何事项需要提出。 芬克律师说：法官大人，首先有一个关于日程安排的小问题。昨晚与辩方协商后，我们重新安 排了证人的顺序。当前证人之后的下一个证人在 11:45 有一个无法推迟的约会。我们认为他作证的时间 会非常短。如果我们无法在 11:45 之前完成他的交叉询问，我们请求他可以暂时停止，我们再叫下一个 证人，然后他可以在今天晚些时候或明天回来继续作证。希望这对法官不是问题。 法官说：没问题。 芬克律师说：还有第二个问题，我想我们可以在边栏讨论。 法官说：好的。我们去更衣室，因为他们需要处理这里的视听设备。 （4069-4072 页密封） （在法庭更衣室） 法官说：还有其他问题吗？ 施洛夫律师说：今天早上我像往常一样走过通道去法庭的时候，我正与预审服务官员进行无关 案件的电话通话。我听到有人说你好。我回头一看，是一个陪审员。陪审员立刻意识到他们不该打招 呼。他们看起来很尴尬。我没有回应，每个人都继续走自己的路。我当时真的在打电话。我只是想让法 官知道。 芬克律师说：是哪位陪审员？ 施洛夫律师说：他们是一起的两个人。一个男人，一个女人，但那只是一瞬间。我能告诉你的 就是，当我看他们的时候，我正走向法庭。我想他们在我后面。我记不清是谁了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 3 / 193页 法官说：那么我要提醒陪审员不要与律师接触吗？ 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，这看起来像是我在告发他们。真的无关紧要，我真的认为不应该 提，但出于谨慎我还是提了。陪审员看起来很后悔那样做。他们做了一个手势，好像在说，为什么我会 那样做。那两个人在互相交谈。是个高个子男人，还有一个女人。我想她坐在第二排或第一排。这真的 无关紧要，真的没什么。 芬克律师说：政府无论法庭决定如何处理都没有意见。这似乎没有问题。我只要求施洛夫女士 告知政府那两个陪审员的编号，这样我们可以知道。除此之外，我认为没有什么。当然，政府对法官提 醒陪审员作为陪审员的义务和要求没有异议。 法官说：如果施洛夫女士要求我不这样做，那我就不做。 施洛夫律师说：真的没什么。无关紧要。我甚至觉得不应该提，但为了谨慎起见我还是提一 下。 法官说：好的。 芬克律师说：法官大人，鉴于在法庭更衣室会议的第一部分讨论的内容涉及受害者的性格，政 府请求密封会议的那部分内容。 法官说：好的。谢谢。 （在公开法庭） 法官说：请让陪审员进来。 法庭书记员：陪审团入庭。 （陪审团出席） 法官说：请坐。早上好，陪审员们。我在 9:34 叫你们进来，因为我们有一个影音故障，所以我 需要先处理好。还记得昨天我问你们是否能在 7月 2 日和 3日待到下午 5点吗��有谁不能做到吗？非常 好。感谢你们的合作。我们现在继续进行证人的直接询问。先生，请记住你仍然在宣誓下作证。 证人说：是的，法官大人。 道格拉斯· 斯卡尔卡，继续作证。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 4 / 193页 由费根森先生继续直接询问： 问：早上好，斯卡尔卡先生。 答：早上好。 问：昨天你详细地解释了你们公司的费用支付过程。你还记得吗？ 答：是的，我记得。 问：你知道大概你的公司为破产工作收取了多少费用吗？ 答：大约 200万美元。 问：你能否大致估计一下 Paul Hastings公司为破产工作收取了多少费用？ 答：大约 2500万美元。 问：你能告诉我们已经收回破产的不动资产有多少吗？ 答：超过一亿美元。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们是否能看看 1404-B。请往下滚动，洛夫特斯女士。斯卡尔卡先生，你记得昨天 我们休庭时看过这个记录吗？ 答：是的。 问：这个债权人会议的日期是什么时候？ 答：2020年 4月 6 日。 问：为了展现其背景，请问这是在破产程序提交后多久？ 答：提交后一个半月。 问：洛夫特斯女士，也许我们可以放大下半部分，然后我们可以滚动浏览。现在我来读问题，斯卡尔卡 先生，你可以读郭先生的回答。记录中说，“Greenwich Land, LLC有拥有除 373 Taconic Road以外的 任何房地产吗？ “答：我不知道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 5 / 193页 “问：你知道位于康涅狄格州Cos Cob 的 33 Ferncliff 的任何情况吗？我们是否能往下滚动。然后你可以 从第二行读，斯卡尔卡先生。 “答：是的。现在我记起来了。这也是我妻子的公司拥有的。 “问：是 Greenwich Land 公司吗？ “答：也许是。 “问：你知道吗？ “答：我不确定。 “问：你去过 33 Ferncliff 吗？ “答：是的。 “问：最近吗？ “答：不，最近没有。 “问：你知道 Greenwich Land 什么时候购买了 33 Ferncliff 吗？ “答：我不记得了。 “问：你知道大概花了多少钱吗？ “答：可能超过一百万美元。 “问：137万美元听起来对吗？ “答：我不确定。 “问：2019年 9月的购买日期听起来对吗？ “答：不确定。 “问：回到 373 Taconic，你知道购买那处房产花了多少钱吗？ “答：大概 40到 50万美元。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 6 / 193页 然后私人翻译，不，不，不，是官方翻译，四到五百万。对不起。下一个问题，“373 Taconic的大致购 买时间是什么时候，如果你知道的话？ “答：我不知道。 “问：你曾经住在 33 Ferncliff 吗？ “答：没有。 “问：你知道现在是否有人住在那里？ “答：以前有另一个战友，可能是为了脱离中国共产党，他住在那里。 “问：多久前？ “答：可能是一到两年前。 “问：你记得那个人的名字吗？ “答：是的。 “问：叫什么名字？ “答：王定刚（Wong Din Gon）。 “问：现在是否有人住在那里，如果你知道的话？ “答：我不知道。 “问：谈到 373 Taconic，购买那处房产的钱来自哪里？ “答：我不知道。 “问：你知道那处房产是用现金还是融资购买的吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：同样的问题适用于 33 Ferncliff。你知道购买那处房产的钱来自哪里吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 7 / 193页 “答：我听说是用现金购买的。 “问：你听谁说的？ “答：我不记得了。 “问：你知道那钱来自哪里吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：我们能往下滚动吗，洛夫特斯女士。 你知道什么是 Saraca Media Group吗？ “答：Saraca？ “问：Saraca。 “答：Saraca Media Group，我知道。 “问：Saraca Media Group是什么？ “答：就是 Saraca，这是一个公司。 “问：什么类型的公司？ “答：我不确定。 “问：你个人曾经与 Saraca 有任何关系吗？ “答：没有。 “问：你知道 Saraca 进行什么类型的业务吗？ “答：我记得他们与 GTV媒体平台有关，或者他们投资了 GTV媒体平台。 “问：你怎么知道的？ “答：因为我是他们的顾问，拥有顾问职务，我也是 GTV的主持人，这也是反对共产党的一个力量和平 台。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 8 / 193页 “问：你刚才说你是顾问，那是指为 Saraca 还是 GTV做顾问？ “答：GTV。 “问：Saraca曾经与 162 East 64th Street 这个地址有关联吗？ 然后问题重复了，你可以从第 19 行开始。 “答：我不知道。 “问：那是家族办公室的地址，对吗？ “答：这是其中一个。 “问：其他的在哪里？ “答：我不知道。 “问：在纽约市还有其他的吗？ “答：我只想澄清，金泉是 162 这栋楼里的公司之一。 “问：明白，谢谢。我们在你的询问中提到过家族办公室，我只想明确。当我们谈到家族办公室时，我们 是指东 64街的那个地址吗？ “答：是的。 “问：GTV曾经与家族办公室地址有关联吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：谁拥有 Saraca？ “答：我儿子。 “问：从什么时候开始？ “答：我不知道。 “问：Saraca目前存在吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 9 / 193页 “答：我不知道。 “问：你知道 Saraca 的资产价值吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：你知道 Saraca向 GTV支付了什么款项吗？ “答：不，我不知道。 “问：你妻子曾告诉你关于 Saraca向 Greenwich Land 支付的数百万美元款项吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：你不知道她是否告诉过你，还是你不知道这些付款？ “答：她从未告诉过我，我更不知道多少。 “问：你知道 Ziba Limited 公司吗，Z-I-B-A？ “答：我不知道。 “问：对不起，如果我已经问过了。Saraca 和 GTV之间有什么关系吗？ “答：Saraca 是 GTV的投资者。 “问：你知道 Saraca向 GTV投资了多少钱吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：GTV是什么时候成立的？ “答：2020年，也许是 2019年，不确定。 “问：你知道 Saraca 的任何管理人员或董事的名字吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：你知道王雁平是否是 Saraca 的管理人员或董事吗？ “答：我不知道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 10 / 193页 “问：你认识叫 Hong Chong Wang的人吗？ “答：是的。 “问：那是谁？ “答：他是我的伙伴，也是脱离共产党的战友。 “问：他是你的朋友吗？ “答：朋友，战友和伙伴。 “问：你说的伙伴是什么意思？ “答：因为我们有商业合作。 “问：告诉我那是什么？ “答：好吧，我不记得那家公司的名字。它是一家在美国调查共产党进行洗钱和犯罪的公司。 “问：那是一家营利性公司吗？ “答：我不知道。 “问：你不知道？ “答：我不知道。 “问：那家公司的名字是什么？ “答：我不记得那家公司的英文名字。 问：你与 Hong Chong Wang在这家公司合作的大致时间是多久？ 答：我不记得了。 问：在过去三年内吗？ 答：肯定是三年以上。 问：超过十年吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 11 / 193页 答：没有。 问：Hong Chong Wang 曾经与 Saraca 有任何联系吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：他曾经是 Saraca 的管理人员或董事吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：GTV中的 G 代表什么？ 答：God，目标，就像 G-O-A-L 中的目标。 问：英文单词“goal”？ 答：是的，目标或 God。 问：你认识 Hong Chong Wang有多久了？ 答：我不记得了。 问：超过十年吗？ 答：大约。 问：你今天仍然认为他是朋友吗？ 答：是的。 问：请稍等。今天有很多关于金泉资助你生活费用的问题。你的生活费用方面的资金是不需要偿还的 吗？ 答：是的，确实是。 问：所以这些资金没有任何正式协议，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：那么这些钱本质上是送给你的礼物，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 12 / 193页 答：是的。 问：什么是法治基金？ 答：这是什么意思？ 问：问题是，法治基金是什么？然后翻译问，法治基金，是的，先生。我们可以稍微往下滚动。我希望 通过直接问这个问题来节省时间。你熟悉法治基金吗？ 答：是的。 问：你参与了它的建立吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在成立时有捐款吗？ 答：我自己没有。 问：你指示任何实体向法治基金捐款吗？ 答：指示建议和建议有什么区别。 问：如果是建议，请告诉我是建议？ 答：我没有指示任何人或命令任何人。我只是一直建议人们为基金捐款。然后私人翻译说，作为翻译， 我认为如果证人在问翻译问题，翻译应该翻译证人问的问题，而不是回答那个问题。翻译回答。我们可 以往下滚动。我们可以继续往下滚动。又是 Harbach 先生说。我会开始读下一个问题。 问：你曾建议你的家庭成员向法治基金捐款吗？ 答：是的，我建议过。 问：你的家庭成员或家族控制的企业有向法治基金捐款吗？ 答：是的。 问：多少钱？ 答：现金有一百万美元以上，来自香港、日本和中国大陆，加起来应该超过三千万。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 13 / 193页 问：暂时只关注你建议的家族捐款，具体金额是多少？ 答：我不知道具体情况，因为安全原因，他们不希望我知道。 问：你刚才说你的家族捐赠了超过一百万美元吗？ 答：一百万现金在纽约这里。 问：那是什么时候？ 答：我不记得了。 问：原因是——让我这样问吧。你曾建议你的家庭成员应该向法治基金捐多少吗？ 答：我希望他们捐款，越多越好。 问：这是你告诉他们的吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道法治基金是否与 64街的家族办公室地址有关联？ 答：是的。 问：你曾在 2018年 11月向法治基金捐赠一亿美元吗？ 翻译要求重复问题。问题被重复，你可以回答答案。 答：没有。在直播中，就像我希望的那样，在直播节目中筹集资金。 问：你可以看到私人翻译说的，不完全是证人所说的（无法辨别），广播可以。直播可以。但是筹款— —然后官方翻译说，请求捐款，对吗。私人翻译说，募集。然后证人继续作证。你可以从第 17 行开始。 答：筹款，募集捐款。是的，在直播广播中，或者不管叫什么，请求捐款——你知道，筹集资金，筹 款。 问：我们可以往下滚动。你曾承诺向法治基金捐赠十亿美元吗？然后翻译问你说的是一百亿吗。Harbach 先生说，不，先生，十亿美元。答案在第三行。 答：我不记得了。不记得了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 14 / 193页 问：你的意思是你有可能做过这个承诺吗？ 答：我们是否能把全球的组织结合起来，我们可以达到那个目标。 问：明白。这是一个简单的问题。我只是想知道答案。你自己曾经公开或私下承诺向法治基金捐赠十亿 美元吗？ 答：在过去五年中，我进行了超过 5000次直播。有些直播可能达到四到五个小时。我很难记住我说的每 一句话。 问：我理解，但我只问一个问题，那就是你是否曾经公开或私下承诺向法治基金捐赠十亿美元。然后更 正说捐赠，答案在第 24 行。 答：我不记得了。 问：我再问一次。你是说你有可能做出了这样的承诺，只是不确定吗？ 答：在 Holley女士面前，我不会说任何事情都有可能，但这是一个非常严重的问题。现在他们又开始这 个计划了。 问：这不是你三天前吃了什么早餐的问题。问题是，你是否承诺捐赠十亿美元。如果答案是你不知道， 那也没关系。 往下滚动。Baldiga 先生回应。他是谁，斯卡尔卡先生？ 答：他是当时郭先生的破产律师。 问：我们可以再往下滚动一点。我会读第 17 行的问题。 “所以答案可能是否定的，但你不是在说不？你是说你不记得了？ 答：我说了三次。我不记得了。 问：你可以在第 21 行继续。 答：因为在过去五年里，（无法辨别）总是为我做这些回答，所以南区的法官被你们愚弄了，你们又开 始了。 问：我继续。你可以继续。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 15 / 193页 答：在南区法院，我只见过法官 20秒。在这五年里我没说过一句话，我被罚了大约 3 亿美元，因为那是 他们做的。 问：暂停一下，斯卡尔卡先生。大约 3 亿美元，是在太平联盟案件中吗？ 答：总判决包括初始判决加上罚款大约略高于 2.5亿美元。 问：那个案件是在纽约南区还是在州法院？ 答：是在纽约最高法院，这是一个州法院。 问：我们可以再稍微往下滚动一点。律师之间的对话。然后问题继续。“你在过去两年内向法治基金捐过 款吗？ 答：我自己，对吗？ 问：是的，先生。 答：没有。 问：你在过去两年内建议你的家庭成员向法治基金捐款吗？ 答：我不记得了。 问：如果你实际上没有那笔钱，你会承诺向法治基金捐赠十亿美元吗？请重复一下。问：如果你实际上 没有那笔钱，你会承诺向法治基金捐赠十亿美元吗？然后，斯卡尔卡先生，你看到第 11 行，它说官方翻 译，你可以读以“他说”开头的那一行。 答：他说你要——想要判我死刑。 问：斯卡尔卡先生，破产程序中有死刑吗？ 答：据我所知没有。 问：我们往下滚动，洛夫特斯女士。这是物证的结尾。我们可以停在这里。你可以把它拿下来，洛夫特 斯女士。现在，斯卡尔卡先生，在我们刚刚看的债权人会议之后，郭先生的案件中是否有任命破产受托 人的时候？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 16 / 193页 问：大约是什么时候任命的？ 答：他是由破产法院于 2022年 6月命令任命的。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以公布政府物证 VI-194 吗？洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以放大左上角。斯卡 尔卡先生，你认得左上角显示的人是谁吗？ 答：我认得照片中的人。 问：那是谁？ 答：那是第 11章受托人。 问：斯卡尔卡先生，你曾是任何抗议的对象吗？ 答：我没有。 问：谁是？ 卡马拉珠律师说：反对形式。 法官说：反对有效。 问：谁是抗议的对象？ 卡马拉珠律师说：反对形式。同样的问题。 法官说：请奠定基础。 问：是否有任何与郭先生破产有关的抗议？ 答：是的。 问：谁是这些抗议的对象？ 答：第 11章受托人是一些抗议的对象。 问：还有其他人吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 17 / 193页 答：普衡律师事务所是抗议的对象。太平联盟是抗议的对象，代表太平联盟的律师事务所也是抗议的对 象。 问：有家庭成员吗？ 答：是的，第 11章受托人的女儿。 问：斯卡尔卡先生，在你 35年的破产相关实践中，这种抗议有多常见？ 卡马拉珠律师说：反对相关性。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：这是我见过的第一个这种类型的抗议案例。 问：我们可以把它拿下来，洛夫特斯女士。斯卡尔卡先生，郭先生的破产程序还在进行中吗？ 答：是的。 问：根据郭的个人担保，太平联盟是否已得到偿还？ 答：没有。 问：是否有任何债权人得到偿还？ 答：没有任何破产前通常称为申请前债权人的债权人得到偿还。破产案件中的持续费用正在支付。 费根森律师说：法官大人，我可以稍作停顿吗？ 法官说：可以。 问：斯卡尔卡先生，你提到太平联盟的律师事务所，那是什么律师事务所？ 答：O'Melveny & Myers。 费根森律师说：没有更多问题。 法官说：交叉询问。 卡马拉珠律师说：谢谢，法官大人。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 18 / 193页 交叉询问 由卡马拉珠先生进行： 问：早上好。你能再告诉我破产受托人的名字吗？ 答：卢克·德斯宾。 问：费尔根森先生问你在过去 35年的破产案件中，你是否见过抗议？ 答：我相信问题是关于破产案件。是的。 问：个人的第 11章破产申请有多常见？ 答：它们不像公司实体那么常见，但我多年来参与过几个。 问：在你多年来参与的这些案件中，有哪些人是被中国共产党策划返回中国的对象吗？ 答：没有。 问：有谁是被策划绑架并送回中国的对象吗？ 答：没有。 问：有谁是被中国共产党在线上抹黑的对象吗？让我重说一下。被中国共产党在线上抹黑的具体对象 吗？ 答：没有。 问：你知道郭先生发生了这些事情吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：所以在准备你今天的证词时，费根森先生没有与你讨论这些，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：我们可以把抗议的照片调出来吗？我想是 GXVI-194吧。你记得费根森先生问过你一些关于这个的 问题吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 19 / 193页 答：是的。 问：你知道“中共走狗”这个词的意思吗？ 答：不知道。 问：你看到海报上写着“推翻中共”吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你认为这是在将德斯宾先生与中共联系起来吗？ 答：我不确定这个海报试图传达什么，只是——我不知道。 问：我们先放大一下，然后快速缩小。你看到底部有一个数字 2.5亿吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你看到上面写着“由司法部任命的敲诈勒索者”吗？ 答：看到了。 问：这个数字 2.5亿在 PAX和解谈判的背景下有何意义吗？ 答：我不知道。我没有参与 PAX和郭先生之间的和解谈判。 问：但是德斯宾先生参与了，对吗？ 答：德斯宾先生是代表资产的受托人，其中包括许多债权人，不仅仅是 PAX。 问：你知道 PAX和郭先生的律师之间有和解谈判，对吗？ 费根森律师说：问过并回答过。 法官说：反对有效。 问：德斯宾先生和郭先生的律师之间有和解谈判吗？ 答：破产法院下令进行调解，因此作为调解的一部分进行了谈判。 问：德斯宾先生在法院下令的调解中提出了要求吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 20 / 193页 答：我没有出席调解会议，所以我相信他提出了要求，但我没有出席那些调解会议。 问：据你所知，那个要求是什么？ 答：我不知道。 法官说：卡马拉珠先生，请对着麦克风说话。 卡马拉珠律师说：抱歉，法官大人。 问：现在，你看到上面写着“由司法部任命”。我想在直接询问中你提到了一个叫 Claiborne的女士，对 吗？ 答：是的。 问：她是谁？ 答：Claiborne 女士是美国受托人办公室的审判律师。 问：美国受托人办公室属于哪个特别的部门吗？ 答：据我所知，它是司法部的一个分支。 问：受托人办公室向破产法院推荐第 11章受托人，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这就是在这个案件中发生的事情，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以 Claiborne办公室的某个人推荐了德斯宾先生，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：据你所知，德斯宾先生是第一个被提出的受托人吗？ 答：不是。 问：第一个是谁？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 21 / 193页 答：我不记得那个人的名字。 问：你知道为什么会有第二个受托人被提出吗？ 答：据我了解，第一个受托人有冲突或冲突。 问：作为德斯宾先生选择的一部分——让我撤回。一般而言，潜在的第 11章受托人是否会进行任何类型 的审查？ 答：据我了解，会进行一些审查。 问：你对那种审查有什么了解？ 答：有一个面试过程，美国受托人办公室联系他们认为可能是合格候选人担任受托人的人。最后一旦他 们缩小到几个候选人，我的理解是每个候选人在被选中之前会进行一些冲突审查。 问：据你了解，这个过程在郭先生的破产中发生了吗？ 答：是的。 问：你记得费根森先生问过你破产案件中是否有死刑。你记得吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道中国刑法下是否可能有死刑吗？ 费根森律师说：反对。 答：我不知道。 问：你还被问到一些关于 PAX诉讼的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：PAX于 2017年 4月 18日对郭先生提起诉讼，对吗？ 答：这是在 2017年初提起的。我不记得确切日期。 问：我看看能否帮你确认一下。我们可以调出仅供证人和各方查看的 DX7006 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 22 / 193页 请你自己查看一下。 答：我看到了。 问：所以问题只是，看这个文件是否能让你回想起 PAX投诉的提交日期？ 答：是的。 问：那日期是 2017年 4月 18日吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道这是中国政府对郭先生发出国际刑警组织红色通缉令的前一天吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你知道这是郭先生为美国之音做关于中国腐败的直播采访的前一天吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：PAX究竟是什么？ 答：它是一个实体，在这种情况下向一家名为 Shiny Times Holdings 的公司提供贷款。 问：你知道它被命名为太平洋亚洲联盟机会基金的意义吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你知道它的总部在哪里吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你知道它是否专注于亚洲的投资吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你没有代表 PAX诉讼中的任何一方，对吗？ 答：我没有。 问：所以你对那个案件的熟悉完全来自于阅读其中的文件，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 23 / 193页 答：还有在破产程序中听说过这个案件，但是对的。 问：所有的信息都是二手的，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你没有参加 PAX诉讼的任何听证会，对吗？ 答：我没有。 问：你没有以任何方式介入 PAX诉讼，对吗？ 答：对。 问：当费根森先生问你关于 PAX诉讼的问题时，他和你一起阅读了他希望你阅读的文件，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：他和你讨论了他可能会问你的问题，对吗？ 答：不是具体的。 问：嗯，我不是说他问你具体的问题。一般来说，他告诉你他希望你谈论什么，对吗？ 答：对。 问：费根森先生问你一些关于 PAX诉讼中州法院命令的问题。你记得吗？ 答：我相信他问过我几个州法院的命令。 问：让我具体一点。我指的是授予简易判决的那个。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：当简易判决命令被授予时，这意味着郭先生有义务支付一些钱，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：那超过了一亿美元，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 24 / 193页 问：我想你作证说 PAX在试图收取那笔判决金，对吗？ 答：一旦判决生效，是的。 问：在判决生效后，PAX在努力收取，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：而郭先生没有支付，对吗？ 答：对。 问：现在，根据你在破产案件中的经验，你知道郭先生在那个案件中声称 PAX是由中共控制的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：事实上，你提到的针对 PAX的抗议，郭先生也将其与中共联系起来，对吗？ 答：我相信那是他的主张。 问：同样的，还有针对受托人的抗议，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在，除了将 PAX与中共联系起来，郭先生还声称受托人破坏了 PAX和郭先生律师之间的和解， 对吗？ 费根森律师说：反对形式。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你是否知道郭先生在某个动议中声称受托人破坏了 PAX和郭先生律师之间的和解？ 费根森律师说：反对，传闻。 法官说：我允许这个问题。 答：对不起。我不记得郭先生提交的与谈判或调解相关的具体动议。那是你的问题吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 25 / 193页 问：在你知道的任何郭先生破产程序的提交文件中，你是否知道他指控德斯宾先生破坏了 PAX和郭先生 之间的和解协议？ 答：不知道。 问：现在，针对德斯宾先生的抗议始于 2022年 11月，对吗？ 答：是 2022年秋天。我不记得确切的日期或月份，但在 2022年秋天。 问：你知道郭先生在破产案件中提出动议要求取消德斯宾先生的资格，对吗？ 答：我的记忆是那个动议在抗议之前。 问：当然。它不是立即发生的，但在之前，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：作为那个动议的一部分，郭先生的律师指控受托人是中共的一部分？ 费根森律师说：法官大人，反对，传闻。这不可接受。 法官说：我允许这个问题。 答：你能重述一下问题吗。 卡马拉珠律师说：可以请读回记录吗。 （重读记录） 答：我不记得那个指控。 问：让我看看能不能帮你记起来。让我仅向证人和各方展示——法官大人，我可以稍等一下吗—— DX60658，仅供证人和各方查看。我们可以浏览一下这个文件给证人看。实际上我们可以把它拿下来。 抱歉。让我们继续。我们再回到 PAX案件，好吗。现在，PAX案件中首先有一个初步的蔑视命令，对 吗？ 答：是的。 问：那是某种条件蔑视命令？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 26 / 193页 答：我相信它被称为初步蔑视命令。 问：无论是什么术语，先有一个，然后有一个后来的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：第一个罚款郭先生每天 50万美元，直到 Lady May 返回纽约，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在，郭先生如果不遵守命令，面临潜在的监禁时间，对吗？ 答：正式的蔑视命令没有提到监禁时间或额外的罚款。我的记忆是那个蔑视命令提供了 60 天的时间让郭 先生，也就是郭先生，将 Lady May 返回司法管辖区，然后罚款才会开始征收。 问：好的。但是游艇没有回来，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。你知道当时游艇在哪里吗？ 答：根据诉状，船或者游艇在欧洲。 问：好的。你知道郭先生当时是否在欧洲吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：好的。现在在纽约有关于 PAX诉讼的法庭听证会，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你作证说过有一个证据听证会，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：郭先生出席了那些听证会，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：好的。所以在那些时候他不在欧洲，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 27 / 193页 答：证据听证会是在 2022年 2月。我相信他当时在纽约出席了听证会。 问：好的。那么 PAX在那个时候已经获得了简易判决命令，对吗？ 答：到 2022年 2月，是的。 问：对不起。我指的是第一次蔑视命令发出时。 答：是的。 问：好的。现在郭先生没有使用任何 G|CLUBS 的钱来支付那个简易判决命令，对吗？ 答：没有钱被用来支付那个简易判决。 问：对。所以没有 G|CLUBS 的钱，没有 GTV的钱，没有喜马拉雅交易所的钱；没有钱，对吗？ 答：对。 问：这笔钱没有被支付，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：在 2022年初，PAX申请了最终的蔑视命令，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：法院在 11月 9 日批准了那个命令，对吗？ 答：我相信是 2022年 2月 9 日。 问：哦，对不起。我说错了。谢谢。是 2月 9 日，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：2022年。郭先生需要支付的总费用/罚款是 1.34亿美元，对吗？ 答：是的。 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以调出 GX 1413的第 2 页吗。大家都在屏幕上看到了吗？好的。稍等 一下。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 28 / 193页 好的。谢谢。 问：好的。那么第 2段写着，“指示立即向 PAX支付”，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：金额是 1.34亿美元，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：然后在第 4段，它写着，“上述第 2段所列金额应在本命令送达后的五个工作日内支付给 PAX，并附 送达通知”，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。所以郭先生的遵守截止日期是 2022年 2月 16 日，对吗？ 答：我相信是对的。我是说，五个工作日。我没有拿出日历，但我相信可能中间有一个周末，所以这可 能是准确的。 问：对。对。那么，我这样说吧。他在 2022年 2月 15 日提交了破产申请，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：那是在他需要支付这笔钱的前一天，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我认为你作证说过，中间有一个周末，对吗？ 答：是的，我相信是的。 问：好的。那么破产法官——对不起。撤回。州法院法官命令郭先生在基本上一周内支付超过一亿美 元，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：郭先生没有使用 G|CLUBS 的钱来支付，对吗？ 答：对。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 29 / 193页 问：他没有使用喜马拉雅交易所的钱来支付，对吗？ 答：对。 问：他没有使用 GTV的钱来支付，对吗？ 答：对。 问：他没有使用法治基金的捐款来支付，对吗？ 答：对。 问：如果他违反了这个蔑视命令，郭先生确实面临潜在的监禁时间，对吗？ 答：这是我的理解。 问：尽管如此，他仍然没有使用任何这些钱来支付这笔罚款，对吗？ 答：对。 问：相反，郭先生申请了破产，对吗？ 答：他确实申请了破产。 问：当一个人申请破产时，可以说他们必须提供一些关于自己的信息，对吗？ 答：财务信息，是的。 问：对。你必须披露资产和负债，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你必须公开披露你没有足够的资产来覆盖你的负债，对吗？ 答：你必须披露你的资产和负债的全部情况。有时可能显示你可以偿还债务，但可能不能立即偿还，所 以——但你需要披露它们。 问：你能解释一下你最后一个答案的意思吗？ 答：你可以披露资产，显示这些资产的价值超过你的负债。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 30 / 193页 问：但它们可能不是流动的，所以你不能立即支付，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以有人宣布破产并不意味着他们没有大量的资产，只是他们当时没有流动资产，对吗？ 费根森律师说：反对形式。 法官说：反对有效。 问：好的。那么你能解释一下你刚才说的破产申请中的流动资产和非流动资产的区别吗？ 答：你可以披露资产——和资产的价值——这些价值超过你的负债，但它们可能不是在你披露时流动 的，意思是它们可能不是现金；它们可能是资产的形式，无论是房地产还是投资，这些资产无法—— 口译员说：对不起。翻译请求所有人放慢速度。谢谢。 法官说：请放慢速度。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的，法官大人。 问：请继续。 答：你无法在一段时间内变现这些资产，因此无法支付账单。 问：在这个案件中，这段时间是一周，对吗？ 答：破产的目的是为了给债务人提供时间来支付账单，所以——但你需要披露你的资产的全部情况，无 论它们是否流动。 问：对。所以我说的是金额——好吧，撤回。我们继续。你熟悉“个人破产”这个术语吗？ 答：是的。 问：通俗地说，个人破产是什么意思？ 答：这意味着由个人而不是商业实体或公司实体提交的破产申请。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们可以调出证据中的 GX 1419 吗？我们公布它。对不起。在我们这 样做之前，我们可以快速调出 GX 1407 吗？大家都能看到吗？好的。太好了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 31 / 193页 由卡马拉珠先生进行询问： 问：这是郭先生的破产申请书，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。为了确认——我们是否可以转到第 7 页——那是他的签名，对吗，电子签名？ 答：是的。 问：它是在 2022年 2月 15 日签署的，对吗？ 答：是的。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。现在我们可以转到——对不起。页面刚刚移动了，但我们可以转到页 面顶部的第 1 页，pdf 文件的第 10 页。这是一个表格，官方表格 104。太好了。谢谢。现在我们可以往 下滚动一点。哦，我们丢失了它。好的。谢谢。我们可以往下滚动一点。 由卡马拉珠先生进行询问： 问：好的。你看到第 2 项了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：好的。那是金泉，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：它写着，“索赔的性质是什么？”你能读一下吗？ 答：可以。哦。 问：对，你能读一下上面写的内容吗。 答：“诉讼资金”。 问：披露的金额大约是多少？ 答：大约 2100万美元。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 32 / 193页 问：这是否反映了金泉被认定为有 2100万美元的未偿债务？ 答：这是郭先生提交的 20 大债权人名单，金泉被列为第二大债权人，索赔金额为 2100万美元。 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以转到第 13页吗。 问：好的。你看到第 16 项了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：好的。你能读一下债权人的名字吗。 答：Lamp Capital, LLC。 问：那是什么性质的索赔？ 答：诉讼贷款。 问：金额是多少？ 答：100万美元。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们现在可以转到 1419 吗。 问：好的。这是另一个提交文件——对不起。你需要稍等一下吗？ 好的。这是郭先生的律师在破产中提交的另一个文件，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：全球说明和声明基本上是解释文件，对吗？ 答：在这种情况下，是的。 问：好的。提供了更多的细节，对吗？ 答：关于文件，其中一些我们刚刚看过，破产时间表和财务状况声明。 问：好的。我们从第 4 页开始。我想费根森先生问过你一些关于问题 1b 的问题。你记得吗？ 答：记得。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 33 / 193页 问：如果你往下看—— 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以转到第 ii 项吗，Jorge。谢谢。 问：好的。他问你一些关于这个段落的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你能读一下第一段吗。 答：可以。“债务人还可以使用位于纽约市第五大道 781号雪梨-荷兰酒店的一套公寓（‘公寓’）。公寓的 合作股份由 Genever Holdings LLC（‘美国 SPV’）持有。美国 SPV的会员权益由 Genever Holdings Corporation（‘BVI公司’）持有。债务人持有 BVI公司的所有股权；然而，根据 2015年 2月 17 日（‘信 托日期’）的信托声明和协议，债务人将这些股权以信托形式持有给 Bravo Luck Limited（‘公寓所有 者’）。债务人的儿子拥有公寓所有者的股权。在信托日期左右，公寓所有者用公寓的购买价格资助了美 国 SPV。这些资金来自于由债务人的儿子拥有或控制的实体，而不是来自债务人。” 问：好的。所以你是否理解为这长段话是说郭先生的儿子拥有雪梨-荷兰酒店公寓？ 答：这是我对该文件中所述内容的理解。 问：对。这是这里所说的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道郭先生的儿子购买时的价格是多少吗？ 答：大约——购买价格大约是 6000万美元。 问：好的。我不要求你读下一段，但你是否可以看一下。你看到下面提到“在面对主要涉及住宅受益所有 权的多次法院争议”，然后继续说“在 Bravo Luck Limited和 PAX之间”吗？ 答：我看到了。 问：好的。所以 PAX也对雪梨-荷兰酒店公寓提起了诉讼，对吗？ 答：我相信是关于 Genever 的两个实体，Genever Holdings, LLC和 Genever Corporation。 问：那场诉讼是在英属维尔京群岛开始的，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 34 / 193页 答：是的，还有在纽约最高法院的诉讼。 问：好的。所以有两个诉讼，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：英属维尔京群岛有时被称为 BVI，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。BVI是一个常见的商业地点，对吗？很多企业都在 BVI，对吗？ 答：很多企业在 BVI 注册，是的。 问：这是出于各种公司利益，对吗？ 答：这是我的理解。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们转到下一页。 问：好的。我不会要求你读全部，但问题 3，你看到上面写着“债务人使用汽车，包括豪华汽车和摩托车” 吗？你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：然后它写着“与这些车辆相关的所有费用和开支都由家庭和家庭控制的企业直接提供”，对吗？ 答：是这样写的。 法官说：请稍等。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的，法官大人。 法官说：你可以继续。 卡马拉珠律师说：谢谢，法官大人。我们可以转到第 6 页吗。 问：好的。你看到问题 17 吗？ 答：看到了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 35 / 193页 问：费根森先生在直接询问中也问了你一些关于这个问题的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：在你职业生涯中的个人第 11章案件中，有多少案件涉及由香港高等法院实施的限制令？ 答：除了郭先生破产程序，没有其他。 问：对。他是唯一一个，对吗？ 答：在我参与的案件中。 问：当然。 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以转到第 7 页。 问：在第 i段，你看到上面写着“在 2017年 9月和 10月，中国政府突袭了 Shiny Times 的办公室，查封 了所有会计公司记录和许多个人财务记录”吗？你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：在你处理的所有个人第 11章案件中，有多少债务人的办公室被中国政府突袭过？ 答：这是唯一的一个。 问：好的。可以说郭先生的破产案件在你的经验中是相当独特的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。它独特的原因之一是郭先生基本上宣布自己没有资产，对吗？ 答：不。我参与过其他债务人披露很少或没有资产的案件。 法官说：先生，请对着麦克风说话，让每个人都能听到你。 证人说：对不起。对不起。 答：我参与过其他破产案件，债务人披露很少或没有资产。但——所以这本身并不罕见或使它成为一个 独特的案件。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 36 / 193页 问：好的。公平地说。我只是好奇这是否是一个因素。对不起。我们没有听到你的答案。这是一个因素 吗？ 答：是的，这是一个因素。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们可以转到第 11 页。 问：好的。你看到附表 I吗？ 答：看到了。 问：好的。你看到那里的句子，“债务人确实收到家庭和家庭控制企业资助的住房、家庭和生活费用支 持”，对吗？ 答：是这样写的。 问：好的。郭先生从家庭和家庭控制企业收到支持这一事实不会使他没有资格申请第 11章，对吗？ 答：对。 问：实际上，有一个机制可以通过该机制驳回不适当的第 11章申请，对吗？ 答：有一个机制，相关方可以寻求驳回破产案件，几乎任何理由。相关方可以申请驳回。 问：债权人可以这样做，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：PAX是这个破产案中的债权人，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以 PAX本可以申请驳回破产，如果它愿意的话。 答：PAX实际上在某个时候确实申请过驳回。 问：好的。结果如何？ 答：法官驳回了这一请求，同时提交了任命受托人的动议，法院没有驳回案件，而是批准了任命受托人 的动议。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 37 / 193页 问：好的。所以德斯宾先生被任命为破产受托人，而不是驳回破产，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你熟悉“信托基金宝宝”这个词吗？ 费根森律师说：反对，相关性。 法官说：反对有效。 问：好的。你熟悉其他债务人主要由其家庭支持的情况吗？ 答：熟悉。 问：所以这在破产案件中并不罕见，对吗？ 答：我以前见过。在其他案件中见过。 问：现在你作证说你没有参与和解谈判或调解会议，对吗？ 答：对。 问：作为你作为地方律师的工作的一部分，你会熟悉在法庭上进行的程序吗？ 答：会。 问：你提交与此相关的申请，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你描述你所做的工作吗？ 答：描述我所在的律师事务所所做的工作。 问：对。我想你在直接询问中作证说德斯宾先生和他的律师事务所已收到大约 2500万美元的费用，对 吗？ 答：对。 问：这些费用从哪里支付？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 38 / 193页 答：从破产程序中迄今为止的回收款中支付。 问：那大约是超过一亿美元，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以德斯宾先生的费用大约占回收款的 25%，对吗？ 答：大约是这样。 问：当然。我不要求具体，但大约是这样，对吗？现在，当你作证时，那被称为 314面谈，对吗？ 答：341。 问：341。好的，谢谢。所以 341面谈是债务人必须坐下来回答问题的地方，对吗？ 答：对。那是债权人会议。341 是《破产法》中的一个章节。对不起，说得太技术化了，但——那是指 债权人会议。 问：好的。那是所有债权人都可以参加的会议吗？ 答：是的。所有债权人都会收到会议通知。 问：好的。所以他们任何人都可以出席并提问，对吗？ 答：对。 问：可以说“司法部受托人”吗？描述 Claiborn女士职位的最佳方式是什么？ 答：我称她为美国受托人办公室的审判律师，所以通常被称为美国受托人。 问：好的。所以可以说美国受托人也可以在会议上提问，对吗？ 答：美国受托人办公室实际上主持或管理会议，所以是的。 问：好的。他们可以提问关于任何债务人的财务事务，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：他们可以提问债务人进行的交易，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 39 / 193页 答：在他们知道的情况下，是的。 问：当然。他们提问关于资产和负债的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：债务人必须回答这些问题，对吗？ 答：债务人有义务在破产程序中合作并如实回答。 问：好的。你之前看过几个摘录，对吗？你记得吗？ 答：从债权人会议的记录中？ 问：对。 答：对。 问：费根森先生和你进行了一个小角色扮演，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我不会做那么多，但我会做一点，好吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以调出 GX 1401A并放在大家的屏幕上吗。好的。我们先转到记录的 第 51 页。 问：你看到第 11 行吗？ 答：看到了。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。实际上，我会——第 11 行可以。 问：我会读出来，然后我们可以跳过其他部分，然后你可以读答案，好吗？ 答：好的。 问：“郭先生，Max Krasner 是谁？”然后在第 22 行开始，这是 Baldiga 先生的答案。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 40 / 193页 答：“他必须与你确认，因为我不能读也不能记住英文名字。所以你说Max这个名字，如果只是Max这 个名字，我知道Max。但如果你加上另一个名字，我不确定。我不知道。” 问：“你知道与金泉有关的Max吗？” 答：“是的，我知道。” 问：“Max在金泉的角色是什么？” 答：“我不知道。” 问：“那么你知道Max吗？” 答：“我不记得。” 问：“你知道有一个以上叫Max的人吗？” 答：“对我来说，英文名字非常复杂。就像我记不住我律师的姓。如果你加上别的名字，我不知道。” 问：“郭先生，Max Krasner 的名字被列为金泉邮件的收件人。你知道为什么吗？” “口译员说：对不起？” “你知道为什么吗？” 答：“我只记得在金泉有一个Max。我只知道这一点。” 问：“Max在金泉的工作是什么？” 答：“我不确定是什么角色。我知道他负责财务，但我不确定。” 问：“他在金泉的财务方面做什么？” 答：“我没有参与管理，所以我不知道。” 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们可以快速转到第 54 页。 滚动到第 20 行。 那里可以了，谢谢。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 41 / 193页 问：“郭先生，您是否拥有金泉提供或通过金泉提供的信用卡或借记卡？” 答：“没有。” 问：作为他破产申请的一部分，你知道郭先生是否披露了任何信用卡债务吗？ 答：我不认为他有。 问：好的。他有没有披露有任何信用卡？ 答：我不认为他有。 问：他披露的唯一财产是有一部 iPhone，对吗？ 答：他披露了一些衣物，提到了一只家庭狗，还有一些未兑现的支票。 问：对。那只博美犬，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。那么破产债务人没有信用卡的情况有多常见？ 费根森律师说：反对，相关性。 法官说：你可以回答。 答：在商业破产程序中我多次见过。 问：当然。个人呢？ 答：对不起？ 问：个人呢？ 答：我相信我以前见过，但在个人破产申请中更常见的是有信用卡债务。 问：好的。你被问到一些关于贷款文件的问题。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们可以调出标记为政府证物 1316 的文件吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 42 / 193页 问：你记得在直接询问中作证过这个文件吗？ 答：记得。 问：你看到这个文件的唯一时间是在破产案件的背景下，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以你不在那里签署这个文件，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你不是喜马拉雅国际金融集团的员工，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你不是 HK International Funds Investments 的员工，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你不认识郭美，对吗？ 答：不认识。 问：你不认识文件上的签名，对吗，除了郭女士的签名？ 答：除了郭女士。我在几个文件上见过她的签名。 问：对。但是你从未真正见过她签署这些文件，对吗？ 答：对。 问：那么，您看到顶部了吗——顶部有一个标签，但在左上角写着 Case 22-05003。您看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你看到上面写着 Doc 84-1 吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你知道为什么会有这个吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 43 / 193页 答：知道。 问：好的。你能解释一下为什么吗。 答：我相信我在直接作证时提到，HK International Funds Investments (USA)，通常称为 HK USA，已 启动了一项对抗诉讼。对抗诉讼是在破产程序中的一项诉讼。这是由 HK USA发起的诉讼的案件编号， 这个文件，这个程序中的证据，是在该对抗诉讼中作为证据提交的文件，这是文件在对抗诉讼中提交时 分配的文件编号。 问：好的。所以这个文件现在是公共记录，对吗？ 答：是的——再次强调，这是在破产法院的对抗性诉讼中提交的，这是一个公开提交的文件。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们可以快速调出 GX 1314 吗。 问：你记得之前作证过这个文件，对吗？ 答：记得。 问：好的。它也有相同的文件戳在顶部，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以它也被公开提交了，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：同样地，你也不在这个文件的签署过程中，对吗？ 答：对。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们可以转到文件的第 4 页吗。 问：好的。你看到上面写着 Purpose的部分吗？你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你看到 3.2 吗？ 答：看到了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 44 / 193页 问：好的。你能读一下第一句吗。 答：“总贷款金额将用于与游艇相关的法院担保。” 问：好的。那么，您对“法院与游艇相关的担保”这一说法的理解是什么？ 答：根据我阅读该文件的理解，它被意图作为游艇的有担保贷款，并且要向破产法院披露。 问：好的。为什么需要向破产法院披露？ 答：因为在这笔贷款发放时，破产法院正在进行关于 Lady May的相关诉讼，讨论是否允许 PAX返回州 法院并尝试追回 Lady May。 法官说：你理解“facility”一词的意思是什么？ 证人说：“Facility”在文件前面定义过，法官大人，是喜马拉雅提供给借款人的贷款。 问：好的。你能看一下下一句吗。 答：“借款人将总贷款金额保存在托管账户中的时间将从本协议签订之日起，直到游艇返回美国。” 问：好的。所以可以说这个贷款金额是为了在船返回时作为一种保证，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。它将被保存在托管账户中，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。所以这 3700万美元不是用来购买游艇的，对吗？ 答：不是。这是贷款给 HK USA，然后作为与破产法院协商的 Lady May的和解保证金。 问：对。没有人用这 3700万美元买新游艇，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：好的。你知道托管账户中的 3700万美元发生了什么吗？ 答：知道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 45 / 193页 问：发生了什么？ 答：破产法院在与这里提到的对抗性诉讼中，最终认定 3700万美元和 Lady May是破产财产的一部分， 资金被受托人收回并放入破产财产中。 问：好的。所以这 3700万美元是你之前作证的 1亿美元的一部分吗？ 答：是的。 问：在受托人采取行动后，这 3700万美元不能返还给这件事的贷方，对吗？ 答：对。 问：现在这一切，这个安排，已经向州法院披露了，对吗？ 答：据我所知，没有。 问：好的。向破产法院披露了？ 答：是的。 问：所以没有人向法院隐瞒这个安排，对吗？ 答：没有向破产法院隐瞒。 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以回到 1316 吗，GX 1316。确保每个人都看到了。 问：好的。你记得这个吗？这是附加协议？ 答：记得。 问：好的。你作证说附加协议是一种对协议的修改，对吗？ 答：在这种情况下，是的。 问：好的。再次强调，你不在签署过程中，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你对签署情况没有个人了解，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 46 / 193页 答：对。 问：好的。你看到 1.3(a)吗？上面写着，“贷款协议中的贷款将不再被视为对游艇的担保。”对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。所以这个的效果是游艇不再作为贷款的担保，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你看到这个文件的日期是 2022年 4月 19 日吗？对不起。我们可以放大，你会看到顶部有日期。 答：它指的是贷款协议的日期是 2022年 4月 19 日，但我相信这个文件的日期是 2022年 4月 29 日。 问：你说得对。谢谢。 答：没关系。 问：所以在那时，2022年 4月 29 日，有多个不同的对游艇的要求，对吗？ 答：对。 问：PAX对它有要求，对吗？ 答：他们有一个要求是为了收取他们的判决，是的。 问：当然。州法院对它发布了限制令，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以即使他们想转让游艇也不能，对吗？ 费根森律师说：反对。问题形式有问题。要求推测。我不确定问题是什么。 法官说：你是在要求一个法律结论吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：不。我只是问他的理解。 法官说：我允许这个问题。 答：在那个时候，HK USA可以转让他们在财产中的产权利益，包括游艇。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 47 / 193页 问：好的。但他们没有这样做，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：它只是留在那里，对吗？ 答：对。正如我所说，他们开始——HK USA开始了一场诉讼，实际上声称他们是这艘船的所有者。 问：对。他们利用了美国的司法系统，对吗？ 答：对。 问：以及随之而来的所有披露，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以他们没有处理产权，而是提起了诉讼。 答：我不知道他们是否计划对产权做任何事情。 问：说得对。因为，再次确认，您不是公司的一员，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你从未和郭美谈过这件事，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你不知道她的想法，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你听说过余建明吗？ 答：听说过这个名字。 问：你在破产案的背景下听说过这个名字，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。在什么背景下提到他的名字？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 48 / 193页 答：只是他与郭先生有关系。 问：好的。但你从未和他说过话，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你不知道他为何进行任何贷款，对吗？ 答：对。 问：ACA Capital 也是，对吗？你对 ACA Capital没有任何个人了解？ 答：我与 ACA Capital没有任何联系。 问：喜马拉雅交易所也是，对吗？ 答：对。我与喜马拉雅交易所没有任何联系。 问：你记得费根森先生问你关于一份贷款协议草案的问题吗？ 答：记得。 问：草案上有 ACA，对吗？ 答：对。 问：然后在最终版本中变成了喜马拉雅国际金融集团，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你听说过打字错误吗？ 费根森律师说：反对。 法官说：反对有效。 卡马拉珠律师说：现在我可以请一分钟时间，法官大人。 问：你被称为地方律师，对吗？这是一个公平的描述吗？ 答：对，同时也是冲突律师。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 49 / 193页 问：好的。所以德斯宾先生的律师事务所聘请了你作为地方律师，对吗？ 答：聘请了我的律师事务所，是的。 问：对不起，是你的律师事务所。你作证说你的律师事务所基于这一聘用大约赚了 200万美元？ 答：对。 问：我不是在询问具体细节，但对于你们公司来说，这是一个大项目、中项目还是小项目？ 答：我们是一家有 40名律师的事务所。我已经在这个事务所工作了 30年。我们有过更大的案件，也有 过更小的案件，所以—— 问：好的。所以这不是很大，也不是很小。 答：对。 问：您之前作证时提到过一个程序，根据该程序——我称他为第 11章受托人，德斯宾先生，对吧——第 11章受托人是如何被选出的——不，是由美国受托人推荐的，对吗？ 答：对。 问：那推荐是破产法院任命第 11章受托人的必要步骤，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以，如果某人想在康涅狄格区成为第 11章受托人，他们需要那个推荐，对吗？ 答：实际上是由美国受托人办公室任命，但，对的。 问：对不起。让我们用这个词，使其准确。所以要被任命，他们需要美国受托人的批准，对吗？这对康 涅狄格区的每一个破产案都是如此，对吗？ 答：至于第 11章受托人，是的。 问：所以如果德斯宾先生计划将来成为第 11章受托人，他需要美国受托人的批准，对吗？ 答：对。 问：再次强调，那是司法部的一个部门，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 50 / 193页 答：据我所知，那是司法部的一个分支。 问：现在是德斯宾先生的律师事务所聘请了你，对吗？ 答：是德斯宾先生聘请了我们。 问：好的。那是他的决定，对吗？ 答：对。 问：他可以随时决定聘请其他人，对吗？ 答：对。 问：即使在这个案件中他也可以换律师，对吗？ 答：绝对可以。 问：就像你说的，这还在进行中，对吗？ 答：绝对可以。 问：所以他有机会选择不同的律师事务所，如果他愿意的话，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你知道德斯宾先生多次与检察官交谈过，对吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你知道他是否与他们交谈过吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：你是什么时候被告知要在这个案件中作证的？ 答：大约两周前。 问：在你被告知之前你知道德斯宾先生是否会成为这个案件的证人吗？ 答：不知道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 51 / 193页 问：作为郭先生破产程序的一部分，你和德斯宾先生提起了许多诉讼，我想你提到过，对吗？ 答：对。 问：我想你说超过 300 件，对吗？ 答：对。 问：这些都是为了将资产收回破产财产，对吗？ 答：对。 问：好的。通过收回资产，受托人的指控是这些钱实际上属于郭先生，对吗？ 答：它们属于破产财产，这是郭的破产财产，所以这些资金将用于支付破产财产的债权人。 问：对。最终，这些资金将用于支付债权人，对吗？ 答：对。 问：它们将用于支付他的债权人？ 答：对。 问：对？你用他的钱支付他的债权人，对吗？ 答：用我们认为属于破产财产的资金。 问：好的。那是他的财产。 答：对。 问：财产越大，可用来支付你的费用的钱就越多，对吗？ 答：我的费用在支付之前必须得到批准，但是——如果有很大——我不是按或有费用支付的，而是按小 时计费，所以财产越大并不一定意味着我会得到更多的钱。 问：不。我的问题是：有钱可以支付你，先生。 法官说：卡马拉珠先生，请对着麦克风说话。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 52 / 193页 卡马拉珠律师说：对不起。抱歉，法官大人。 问：你听到我的问题了吗？ 答：听到了。财产越大，有更多的钱可以支付我事务所的费用。 问：好的。你作证说德斯宾先生没有拿佣金，对吗？ 答：对。 问：但同样的情况也适用于他，对吗？财产越大，有更多的钱可以支付他的费用，对吗？ 答：和案件的所有其他费用一样，是的。 问：当然。支付所有费用，对吗？ 答：对。 问：所以如果他的费用超过 2500万美元，那就必须从财产中支付，对吗？ 答：对。 问：你提起的许多诉讼的主题与本案的指控有重叠，对吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：嗯—— 费根森律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：请上前。 (边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场) 法官说：那为什么这无关紧要？ 费根森律师说：我们认为这应根据 403条规则予以排除。首先，他没有被指控破产欺诈；其 次，这远远超出了直接询问的范围；第三，试图通过抹黑破产受托人来质疑我们提出的刑事指控和指控 是不适当的，尤其是在郭先生已经多次声称他是中共代理人的情况下。你不能利用破产受托人的行为及
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 53 / 193页 其与我们指控的相似性和重叠性来试图对我们的案件进行某种暗示，这是不适当的。根据 403条规则予 以排除。 卡马拉珠律师说：对不起。我不确定他是否说完了。不，我只是为了进行一个偏见的交叉询 问。 法官说：什么？ 卡马拉珠律师说：法官大人，关于这位特定证人的偏见质询。问题的线索将是：有重叠；您知 道政府可以要求暂停您的案件吗？事实上，您自愿暂停了您的案件，而您自愿暂停您的案件是为了不干 扰刑事案件，特别是为了不让政府的任何证人被郭先生质询。他确实这样做了，对吧？他们在公开文件 中也这样说了。因此，这只是偏见，就像质询其他任何人一样，就像质询合作证人一样，您采取了所有 这些步骤来帮助政府，仅此而已。 法官说：偏见的性质是什么？ 卡马拉珠律师说：偏见的性质在于他和他的公司在破产案件持续的时间越长并且他们继续处理 此案的情况下获得报酬。如果政府暂停此案，对吧，如果政府采取任何行动，那么他就拿不到这些费 用。就这么简单。他的费用基本上取决于他们。 费根森律师说：法官大人，卡马拉珠先生提出的暂停破产案，而不是政府。 卡马拉珠律师说：不，不。但他也提出了暂停破产案。这是我的观点。我不是提出我们提出的 暂停，而是他提出的暂停。 费根森律师说：这怎么是偏见？ 法官说：他怎么现在有兴趣了？ 卡马拉珠律师说：如果他们在公开文件中说，我自愿暂停这个我们可以提起的非常有利可图的 案件，因为我不想干扰政府的案件，并且我不希望政府的证人被质询，那么这就是一个人或公司或实体 在提供帮助政府，就像如果我有 3500 份材料，一个合作人说，看，我会去对共同被告进行录音，我会被 允许质询并说，看看这个人愿意做出的所有努力。这与我打算对巴斯先生进行的质询并没有太大不同， 据我所知，巴斯先生现在不会成为证人。这是同一个想法。这只是偏见。这是他们愿意帮助政府所做的 努力。 法官说：或者为了他们自己。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 54 / 193页 卡马拉珠律师说：可能是两者。是的。 法官说：好的。继续。 费根森律师说：如果他要提起暂停，那么我认为我们可以在重新询问中询问郭先生如何提出暂 停破产案。 法官说：好的。我允许这个问题。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。谢谢，法官大人。 （在公开法庭上） 法官说：你可以继续。 卡马拉珠律师说：谢谢你，法官大人。 法官说：你要问题再读一遍吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：是的，那很好。 证人说：是的。 法官说：继续。 （记录读出） 卡马拉珠先生继续问： 问：受托人提起的诉讼之一是针对 G|CLUBS，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：受托人提起的诉讼之一是针对 ACA，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。 问：它提起的诉讼之一是针对纽约州金泉，对吗？纽约金泉。抱歉。 答：金泉，是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 55 / 193页 问：GTV也是，对吗？ 答：我不记得是否有提起针对 GTV的诉讼。 问：好的。你是否曾审阅过本案的起诉书？ 答：我不记得是否读过整个起诉书。 问：好的。你读过一部分吗？ 答：我相信我读过一部分。 问：好的。你记得 G|CLUBS 是本案起诉书的一部分吗？ 答：我不记得。 问：你知道政府可以要求暂停破产案吗？ 答：不知道。 问：好的。政府可以提交动议要求暂停破产案，对吗？ 答：我相信任何一方理论上都可以提交那个动议。 问：当然。他们也可以，对吗？ 答：如果你指的是政府，是的。 问：是的，对吗？如果那成功了，那就意味着在暂停期间，你不会有更多的费用，对吗？ 答：如果你指的是我的公司？ 问：是的，先生。对不起。你的公司。 答：我不知道在暂停案件期间破产法院会做什么。即使案件暂停了，仍然会有行政事务要处理。 法官说：请对着麦克风说话。 证人说：对不起。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 56 / 193页 答：即使案件暂停了，仍然会有行政程序要进行，从某种意义上说，没有诉讼在进行。仍然有义务，月 度义务，必须在案件中提交文件，只是为了保持案件的运作和存续，坦率地说，所以—— 问：那么可以说你的费用会更少，对吗？ 答：工作会少一些，是的。 问：对德斯宾先生的事务所来说也是一样的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你知道德斯宾先生和检察官讨论过暂停的可能性吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：后来你和德斯宾先生提交了一个叫做民事 RICO投诉的东西，对吗？ 答：是在破产程序中，是的。 问：你们起诉了一些人，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这是为了寻求对资产的赔偿，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：作为其中的一部分，你实际上可以获得三倍的赔偿，对吗？ 答：其中一个诉求包括三倍赔偿，是的。 问：如果你赢了，那会为资产带来更多的钱，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以比你提交的其他对抗诉讼带来的钱还要多，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：再次确认，那会有更多的钱可以用来支付你的事务所的费用，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 57 / 193页 答：资产中会有更多的钱可以支付所有费用和所有债权人。 问：好。那么这也包括德斯宾先生的费用，对吗？ 答：还有案件中所有其他专业人士的费用，是的。 问：当然，大家都能从这个破产中得到，对吗？ 答：是的。 费根森律师说：问过了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：几乎在提交民事 RICO 案件后，德斯宾先生就要求暂停，对吗？ 答：在破产案件中提交了一份暂停或中止该行动的动议，是的。 问：好的。是你的事务所提交的那个动议，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在提交前审查过了吗？ 答：是的。 问：作为律师，你知道必须对法庭讲真话，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：德斯宾先生告诉破产法庭，他想要暂停 RICO 案件是为了避免干扰刑事诉讼，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：特别是，他告诉破产法庭，他想避免传唤任何可能被政府传唤的证人，对吗？ 答：我不记得动议中有具体的指控，但我记得他说——他说他想暂停 RICO 案件是因为这个刑事诉讼。 问：好的。我来帮你一下。 卡马拉珠律师说：我们能把那段话调出来吗？请让证人和各方查看。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 58 / 193页 问：请你看一下屏幕上的这段话，先生。谢谢。请你自己看一下这个段落。 好的。这是否刷新了你的记忆，让你记起其中一个原因是避免传唤刑事案件中的证人？ 答：是的。这是指在主要破产案件中暂停传唤，而不是与 RICO 案件有关，这就是我——不记得的原 因，但这是请求在主要破产案件中暂停传唤。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。我们能看一下第 26段吗？ 问：好的，请看一下。如果 RICO 案件被暂停—— 卡马拉珠律师说：我们可以把那段话关掉。 问：如果 RICO 案件被暂停，那么在那个案件中也不会有传唤，对吗？ 答：对。 问：什么是传唤？ 答：是对证人在法庭外的审问或询问，在宣誓下进行。 问：如果在 RICO 案件中有传唤，受托人的律师会有机会询问他们，对吗？证人。 答：如果是受托人的律师通知的传唤，是的。 问：好的。但即使是郭先生的律师通知的传唤，受托人的律师也会有机会提问，对吗？ 答：可能会。 问：对吧。所以如果受托人通知了传唤，那么郭先生的律师也会有机会，对吗？ 费根森律师说：法官大人，我们是否进入了假设领域？这也超出了范围。 法官说：我会允许对此进行一些探讨。 卡马拉珠律师说：我快问完了，法官大人。 法官说：好的。 问：让我把问题简单化。如果有传唤，郭先生的律师可能有机会询问证人，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 59 / 193页 答：是的。 问：这包括政府打算在此审判中传唤的证人，如果他们被送达传唤传票的话。 费根森律师说：反对。这是猜测。 卡马拉珠律师说：请让我完成问题。 法官说：你还没问完？ 卡马拉珠律师说：我现在问完了。 法官说：确实是猜测，所以我反对有效。 卡马拉珠律师说：好的。 问：在暂停被解除之前，RICO 案件中不会有传唤，对吗？ 答：对。 问：那是德斯宾先生想要的，对吗？ 费根森律师说：反对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：那是德斯宾先生告诉破产法庭的，对吗？ 费根森律师说：反对。问过了。 法官说：我不确定那个问题是否被回答了。你可以回答。 答：那是我们为德斯宾先生提交的动议中包含的内容，是的。 问：你知道那也是检察官想要的，对吗？ 费根森律师说：反对，法官大人。他不能那样做。这也歪曲了证词。 法官说：他不能知道检察官想要什么。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有其他问题了，法官大人。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 60 / 193页 费根森律师说：那不是我们想要的。那可以。 法官说：重审。 再次直接询问 费根森律师进行： 问：斯卡尔卡先生，刚才有人问你关于破产程序暂停的问题，受托人的民事 RICO 案件暂停的 问题。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：你知道在受托人提出那个动议之前，郭先生提出了暂停破产程序的动议吗？ 答：是的。 问：他实际上提出了两次暂停破产程序的动议吗？ 答：是的。 问：那是郭先生，对吗？ 答：对。 问：那不是政府提出的动议，对吗？ 答：对。 法官说：你理解“提出动议”的意思是什么？ 证人说：提交了一份动议。 法官说：你理解“动议”是什么？ 证人说：是一份请求文件，由一方提交，请求在这个案例中暂停债务人的第十一章破产程序。 法官说：继续。 费根森律师说：谢谢，法官大人。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 61 / 193页 费根森律师说： 问：斯卡尔卡先生，早些时候有人问你关于 PAX诉讼的问题。你记得那些交叉询问的问题吗？ 答：记得。 问：有人问你中国法律下是否有死刑。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 问：PAX诉讼是在哪个法庭提起的？ 答：纽约最高法院。 问：那是在美国吗？ 答：是的。 问：当郭先生成为那个诉讼的对象时，他在美国吗？ 答：是的。 问：PAX诉讼所在的纽约法庭适用纽约法律吗？ 答：是的。 问：它适用中国法律吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：反对。这需要法律结论。 法官说：反对有效。 问：法官是谁？ 答：在 PAX诉讼中？ 问：在 PAX诉讼中？ 答：PAX诉讼的法官是 Ostrager 法官。 问：据你所知，他是中国共产党的成员吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 62 / 193页 卡马拉珠律师说：反对。这是猜测。 法官说：如果他知道的话。 答：我不知道。 问：他在案件中适用纽约法律吗？ 答：是的。 卡马拉珠律师说：反对。这需要法律结论。 法官说：嗯，他可能适用纽约法律，也可能适用其他法律，取决于案件的正确性。 费根森律师说：那很公平，法官大人。那很公平，法官大人。 费根森律师说： 问：你也被问到了关于 PAX诉讼时间的问题。你记得吗？ 答：记得。 费根森律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们能调出辩方证据 7006 吗？ 问：斯卡尔卡先生，这是启动 PAX诉讼的投诉吗？ 答：这是——这是投诉的封面页，是的。 费根森律师说：政府提出辩方证据 7006。 卡马拉珠律师说：反对，传闻。 法官说：投诉还没作为证据？ 费根森律师说：没有，法官大人。这是辩方证据。政府提出。 法官说：反对有效。 费根森律师说：好。洛夫特斯女士，你能展示—— 费根森律师说：
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 63 / 193页 问：斯卡尔卡先生，你还记得投诉中关于在提交此投诉之前发生的具体细节吗？ 答：记得。 问：PAX在提交此投诉之前，指控发生了什么？ 卡马拉珠律师说：反对，传闻。 法官说：反对有效。 费根森律师说：法官大人，我可能需要一个旁听。 法官说：好的。 （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 费根森律师说：昨天，卡马拉珠律师反对我问这个问题。我说，会不会有任何关于 PAX作为中 国共产党代理人的交叉质询？卡马拉珠律师说他可能会问日期。他问了日期，然后他还问：你知道那个 日期是在中国共产党提交红色通缉令的前一天吗？或者你知道那是在Miles Guo接受美国之音采访的前 一天吗？现在有一个暗示，这个投诉，这整个诉讼，是与红色通缉令和美国之音采访一起提交的。这不 是投诉本身所说的。它 谈到了他们在两年前发出了催款信，他们在 2015年向郭先生发出了催款信，他们在 2016年又 发出了一封催款信，然后在这个投诉提交前一年，他们在英属维尔京群岛提出了一个程序，把贷款的主 题实体 Shiny Times列入清算程序。 如果我们不能引出这个事实，这将完全扭曲陪审团对这个诉讼的看法，并且会允许他们在总结 时以极其误导的方式总结。而我理解卡马拉珠律师在交叉质询中提到这些事情是为了说明被告的心态。 那么政府至少应该能够展示郭先生阅读并据说认为这是一个共产党的阴谋的投诉实际指控在投诉提交之 前发生了什么。 法官说：你打算如何引出证词？ 费根森律师说：我认为最简单的方法就是提供投诉并说它可以作为效果提交—— 法官说：整个？ 费根森律师说：是的，提供它。它有 11 页。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 64 / 193页 卡马拉珠律师说：没有证据表明郭先生读过这份投诉。 费根森律师说：他提交了答辩书，法官大人，他还作证说他提交了答辩书。 卡马拉珠律师说：所以仍然没有证据表明郭先生读过这份投诉。律师提交答辩书的事实不能证 明郭先生读过这份用英语写的投诉。 其次，费根森律师一开始提到的所有内容都是为了展示有催款信，有在 BVI的诉讼，有这些催收努力。 所有这些都是为了求真。 费根森律师说：这是—— 卡马拉珠律师说：请——对不起。请让我说完。 费根森律师说：对不起。 卡马拉珠律师说：所以如果他们提出这些是为了求真，那显然这是传闻。如果他们提出这些是 为了说明心态，他们需要有一些证据表明郭先生读过或看过，这与法官大人之前的裁决一致，如果他们 提出这些是为了其他目的，那么他们需要证明这一点。但如果他们真的想了解 PAX提出这些的动机，那 么传唤一个 PAX的证人。但是因为他们对我们总结的方式有疑虑而提交一份传闻文件不是证据的工作方 式。 费根森律师说：我们不反对法官大人指示陪审团，这份文件只是作为其效果提交。 卡马拉珠律师说：你们仍然没有证据证明他读过它。 费根森律师说：这不是第三方诉讼。郭先生是被告。这个诉讼进行了多年。他被威胁要入狱。 他提交了答辩书。他被传唤作证。他还被送达了投诉书。 法官说：好。我允许。 （在公开法庭） 费根森律师说：政府提交辩方证��� 7006。 法官说：反对被驳回，文件被接纳为证据。 （被告的证据 7006被接纳为证据）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 65 / 193页 卡马拉珠律师说：附有限制性指示，法官大人？ 法官说：是的。这份投诉书不是为了证明其中陈述的真实性，只是为了其对读者的影响。 费根森律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 洛夫特斯女士，我们可以往下滚动。 费根森律师说： 问：现在，斯卡尔卡先生，你能读一下第 1段吗？ 答：“这是一个简单的违反合同的案件。郭浩云——” 问：你可以跳过别名部分。 答： “——一位据报道的亿万富翁，他和他控制的实体从原告太平洋联盟亚洲机会基金 L.P.（‘PAX LP’） 借了数百万美元，但未能按照有约束力的书面协议向 PAX LP支付任何金额。” 费根森律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小，往下滚动。继续往下滚动，洛夫特斯女士。继 续滚动，请。你可以快一点。好的，对不起，请往上滚动。对不起，再上去一点。 费根森律师继续询问 问：好的，现在在底部，斯卡尔卡先生，你看到加粗部分写着“PAX LP寻求执行其合同权利并收取欠款” 吗？ 答：看到了。 问：好的，你能读一下第 38段吗？ 答： “2015年 10月 16 日，在和解契据和期权协议终止后，2011年贷款函恢复完全有效，PAX LP向郭 的香港地址发送了一份书面催款通知（‘催款通知’），该地址是根据个人担保的条款指定的。” 问：一般来说，什么是催款通知？ 答：在这种情况下，书面催款通知是一封要求支付全部或部分债务的信。 问：据称这是在 2015年发出的，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 66 / 193页 答：这是指控的内容，是的。 问：这大约是在这个诉讼最终在 2017年 4月提交前一年半的时间吗？ 答：是的。 费根森律师说：请缩小，我们继续往下翻页。下一页。 问：你能读一下第 40段吗？ 答：“郭从未回应催款通知。” 问：你能读一下第 41段吗？ 答：“2016年 2月 19 日，PAX LP向 Shiny Times发送了一封信，要求支付根据 2011年贷款函所欠的 $82,219,404.08，其中包括按合同每年 15%的利息计算到 Shiny Times催款信日期。” 问：2016年 2月，是否是在这个诉讼最终在纽约法院提交前一年多的时间？ 答：是的。 费根森律师说：可以缩小。 问：现在你能读一下第 43段的第一句话吗？ 答：“当 Shiny Times 没有回应时，PAX LP 在 2016年 2月 29 日向英属维尔京群岛（BVI）法 院提交申请，寻求任命联合清算人，将作为 BVI公司的 Shiny Times 进行清算。申请指控（i）——” 问：好的，斯卡尔卡先生。这也是在纽约州法院诉讼提起前一年多的时间吗？ 答：大约是一年。 费根森律师说：好，我们可以把它拿掉。 问：你被问到关于——嗯，撤回。 费根森律师说：我们是否能调出，洛夫特斯女士，政府证物 1407并转到第 7 页。我们是否能放 大底部部分，第 7部分。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 67 / 193页 问：斯卡尔卡先生，你看到第一句话写着，“我已经检查了这份请愿书，并在伪证罪处罚下声明提供的信 息真实准确”？ 答：是的。 问：这份文件中有没有任何针对中共的例外条款？ 答：没有。 问：如果你被中共盯上了，伪证罪法律不适用吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：反对。这需要法律结论。 法官说：反对有效。 问：这份文件是否说伪证罪法律不适用于被中共盯上的人？ 卡马拉珠律师说：文件自述。 法官说：反对有效。 问：现在，斯卡尔卡先生，你也被问到关于 Ostrager 法官作出的简易判决裁定的问题？ 答：是的。 问：你被问到关于 G|CLUBS 没有支付那个罚款，对吗？ 答：对。 问：或者，对不起，那项判决。 你也被问到同样关于藐视法庭罚款的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你被问到 G|CLUBS 没有支付那个，喜马拉雅交易所也没有支付，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：是谁贷款了 3700万美元来保持 PAX诉讼暂停？那个实体是什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 68 / 193页 答：喜马拉雅国际金融集团。 问：你知道那个实体与喜马拉雅交易所有联系吗？ 答：我相信有联系。 问：顺便问一下，你知道郭美为什么需要贷款来支付那笔钱吗？ 答：郭女士的律师在破产程序中声称 HK USA的唯一资产是 Lady May号。 问：你知道为什么郭美没有自己给 HK USA这笔钱，而是拿了一笔贷款吗？ 答：我不知道。 卡马拉珠律师说：反对。要求猜测。 法官说：反对有效。 费根森律师说：我只是问他是否知道。他不知道。 问：你知道为什么最初的贷款协议写的是 ACA Capital吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：相同的反对意见。 答：我不知道。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你知道为什么它被改为喜马拉雅国际金融集团吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：相同的反对意见。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你还被问到那 3700万美元最终发生了什么。为什么破产法官认为它是破产财产的一部分？ 答：法官认定 HK USA是债务人的替身，因此——认定 Lady May是郭先生破产财产的一部分，托管账 户中的资金是郭先生破产财产的一部分。 问：你被问到几个关于美国受托人办公室、司法部的问题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 69 / 193页 法官说：稍等。是时候休息了。 费根森律师说：哦。 法官说：陪审团成员，请不要讨论案件。不要让他人在你们面前讨论案件。不要阅读、观看或 收听任何与本案有关的任何来源的内容。先生，你可以离开了。不要讨论你的证词。 （陪审团不在场） （证人不在场） 法官说：你们可以坐下。我们将进行旁听。 （第 4162 页根据法院命令密封） 下午会议 开始 时间 12:00 法官说：请让陪审员进来。 法庭书记员说：陪审团进入。 （陪审团在场） 法官说：请坐下。先生，请记住你仍在宣誓中，你可以继续重定向提问。 费根森律师说：谢谢。 费根森律师提问： 问：斯卡尔卡先生，在交叉询问中你也被问到关于美国受托人办公室和破产程序的问题？ 答：是的。 问：那与我的办公室是同一个办公室还是不同的办公室？ 答：不同。他们的职责是监督全国每个联邦地区的破产管理。 问：在交叉询问中你还被问到关于被中共盯上的问题，以及与此相关的问题使这个破产案变得独特。你 记得那些问题吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 70 / 193页 答：记得。 问：你说这可能是使其独特的一个因素。还有哪些其他因素使这个破产案独特？ 答：债务人在他的破产清单上几乎没有列出任何资产，但列出了超过 3.73 亿美元的负债。这在我作为破 产律师的经验中是不寻常的。正如我之前提到的，与破产案相关的抗议活动是独特的。坦率地说，大多 数破产案件相当枯燥，它们是关于金钱的争议，所以看到很多债务和关于如何支付这些债务的争议并不 罕见；但通常你不会看到抗议活动和破产法院涉及提供限制令和第一修正案权利主张的情况。这是不寻 常的。 费根森律师说：没有进一步的问题。 法官说：再次交叉质询。 卡马拉珠律师说：谢谢，法官大人，只问简短的几个问题。 再次交叉质询 卡马拉珠律师说： 问：我们能看一下辩方证据 7006 吗？这是一个投诉，对吗，先生？ 答：是的。 问：PAX提起的诉讼？ 答：是的。 问：所以 PAX决定在这里写什么，对吗？ 答：据我理解，是的。 问：这些是 PAX的指控，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你无法知道这里面的任何内容是否属实，对吗？ 答：我知道这些是指控，我知道法院的判决。这是我的知识。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 71 / 193页 问：指控只是指控，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：郭先生否认了这些指控，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这份指控是在线提交的，对吗？ 答：它是通过电子方式提交给纽约县书记员的，但不一定是在互联网上提交的。你说的在线是什么意 思？ 问：不想太过详细。你在线提交文件是通过互联网，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我们能看一下辩方证据 Stip 0001 吗？往下翻。你看到第 5段了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你能读一下第一句话吗？ 答：为了在 2017年执行猎狐行动的部分目标，中国政府指定了一组特别行动人员（该组）使用互动计算 机服务和电子通信系统来诋毁和骚扰包括郭先生在内的个人。 问：我们可以拿掉这个。2017年是 PAX诉讼开始的那一年，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：我们能看一下下一段吗？你能读一下第二句话吗？ 答：2017年 5月，中国政府派遣了四名未申报的中国国家安全部（MSS）特工前往美国，作为猎狐行动 的一部分，试图迫使郭先生被强制遣返中国。 问：2017年 5月，是 PAX提交诉讼后的一个月，对吗？ 答：我认为是几个月后。我记得是 2017年 2月提交的。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有进一步的问题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 72 / 193页 费根森律师说：只有一个问题。 再次直接提问 费根森律师说： 问：斯卡尔卡先生，你是中国间谍吗？ 答：不是。 卡马拉珠律师说：最后一个问题。 再次交叉质询 卡马拉珠律师说： 问：如果你是中国间谍，你会告诉我们吗？ 费根森律师说：要求猜测，法官大人。 法官说：你可以离开了，政府可以传唤下一位证人。 （证人退场） 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。政府传唤欧文·弗利。 欧文·弗利， 作为政府证人被传唤， 宣誓后作证如下： 法官说：请说出你的名字并拼写。 证人说：欧文·弗利，名字 O-W-E-N，姓 F-O-L-E-Y。 法官说：弗利先生，我需要你直接对着麦克风说话。 证人说：是的，法官大人。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 73 / 193页 法官说：你可以询问了。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 直接询问 莫里律师说： 问：下午好，弗利先生。 答：下午好。 问：你在哪里工作？ 答：我在纽约南区美国检察官办公室工作。 问：你在纽约南区美国检察官办公室的职位是什么？ 答：我是一个法律助理专家。 问：作为法律助理专家，你的职责和责任是什么？ 答：协助美国助理检察官进行发现、法律程序和审判准备。 问：你在纽约南区美国检察官办公室做法律助理多久了？ 答：差不多两年。 问：除了今天的证词和为证词准备，你是否参与了本案？ 答：没有。 问：在你作证之前，你是否被要求审查政府的一个证据并核实其中信息的准确性？ 答：是的。 问：你是什么时候被要求审查那个摘要图表的？ 答：大约一周前。 问：你审查了摘要图表的准确性吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 74 / 193页 答：审查了。 问：摘要图表是基于大量记录吗？ 答：是的。 问：那些记录是政府提供给你的吗？ 答：是的。 问：一般来说，摘要图表基于哪些类型的证据？ 答：是贷款支付记录。 问：是谁决定你审查哪些证据以及在摘要图表中包含什么信息的？ 答：是你。 问：你在审查后是否对摘要图表进行了修正以确保其准确性？ 答：是的。 问：图表修正后是否反映了你的修正？ 答：是的。 问：修正后的图表现在准确吗？ 答：是的。 问：为了明确，弗利先生，你是否审查了政府在本案中收集的所有证据，还是只审查了摘要图表及其所 依据的证据？ 答：只审查了摘要图表及其所依据的证据。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，你是否可以请把已作为证据的政府证物 Stip 8展示出来。这是双 方之间的协议。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 75 / 193页 这在第二页上写着，双方同意政府证物 1601至 1849 是政府合法获得的，并且是证据上标明的 实体的真实商业记录，这些记录是在或接近记录所述事件时由知情人制作��从知情人传送的信息制作 的。这样的记录是在定期进行的活动中保存的，并且制作这些记录是该实体的常规做法。 洛夫特斯女士，请看下一页。Stip 8还指出，本协议中列出的政府证物，包括政府证物 1601至 1849，可以作为证据接纳。法官大人，依据 Stip 8，政府此时提出以下政府证物作为证据接纳：政府证 物 1628、1630、1631、1632、1634、1636、1637、1639、1643、1644 和 1646。 舒里克律师说：没有反对意见。 法官说：证据被接纳。 （政府证物 1628、1630、1631、1632、1634、1636、1637、1639、1643、1644 和 1646接 纳为证据） 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以把这个拿掉，请展示标为政府证物 Z-13的文件。弗利先 生，你认出你面前的文件吗？ 答：认出。 问：这是你在为今天的证词准备时审查的摘要图表吗？ 答：是的。 问：你审查了摘要图表所依据的所有证据吗？ 答：是的。 问：这些证据在图表上通过证据编号标明了吗？ 答：是的。 问：根据你的审查，这个图表是准确的吗？ 答：是的。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提出政府证物 Z-13。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我需要一点时间？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 76 / 193页 莫里律师说：法官大人，请给我们一点时间。 法官说：你们准备好了吗？ 莫里律师说：我们还需要一点时间，法官大人。非常感谢。 法官说：好的。 问：弗利先生，请看你的屏幕上的文件。这是标为政府证物 Z-13的文件，我将把它交给辩护律师审阅。 这是你为作证准备时审查的摘要图表吗？ 答：是的。 莫里律师说：辩护律师在审阅后，我此时提出政府证物 Z-13作为证据。 舒里克律师说：没有反对意见，法官大人。 法官说：证据被接纳。 （政府证物 Z-13 接纳为证据）0– 莫里律师说： 问：我们可以公布一下这个摘要图表。弗利先生，看着这个摘要图表，这个图表的标题是什 么？ 答：G Club贷款协议和精选投资。 问：一般来说，这个 Z-13证物中总结了哪些类型的协议？ 答：各种贷款，从 100万美元到 6000万美元不等。 问：看一下第二列，这些贷款的主要贷款人是谁？ 答：G Club Operations, LLC。 问：弗利先生，你知道 G Club Operations, LLC是什么吗？ 答：我不知道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 77 / 193页 问：看一下借款人这一列，大多数贷款的借款人是什么？ 答：大多数是 G Club International Limited. 问：弗利先生，你知道 G Club International Limited..是什么吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：我想看一下这个证物中反映的各种不同字段。最左边的一列，这些贷款中反映了什么信息？ 答：最左边的一列是贷款日期。 问：然后是下一列，那列反映了什么信息？ 答：贷款人。 问：第三列反映了什么？ 答：贷款签署人。 问：看第二行和第三行，是否有—— 法官说：签署人是什么意思？ 证人说：签署贷款的名字。 法官说：继续。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 问：看第二行和第三行，没有列出贷款签署人，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：再看下一列借款人，这一列反映了什么信息？ 答：借款人是租赁协议及基础文件中列出的借款人名字。 问：然后是下一列，有哪些个人的名字被反映在那一列中，如果有的话？ 答：借款签署人。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 78 / 193页 问：然后是标题为资金接收人的列，那列反映了什么信息？ 答：在贷款协议中指定的接收资金的个人或组织的名字。 问：接下来的两列分别是金额和货币。你能解释一下那列反映了什么信息吗？ 答：金额是基础贷款协议中列出的金额，货币是该金额的货币。大多数是美元，也有一些是英镑和瑞士 法郎。 问：最后最右边的一列，反映了支持文件的政府证物编号吗？ 答：是的。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以暂时拿下这个。 弗利先生，我想看看那些基础贷款协议中的一个，然后我们再看图表。 洛夫特斯女士，请展示 GXGC-515，并放大文本部分。 弗利先生，这份文件顶部列出的实体名称是什么？ 答：汉密尔顿 Digital Assets FD SP。 问：你知道汉密尔顿 Digital Assets 是什么吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：第一条粗体条目反映了什么信息？ 答：是从 G Club Operations LLC转移来的。 问：根据这份文件，转移到哪里？ 答：G Club International Limited。 问：资金名称是什么？ 答：汉密尔顿 Digital Assets FD SP。 问：转移的生效日期是什么时候？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 79 / 193页 答：2021年 3月 6 日。 问：下一栏显示了两个不同日期的金额。你能读一下每一个吗？ 答：第一个是 2021年 5月 6 日的 2000万美元，第二个是 2021年 5月 13日的 1500万美元。 问：弗利先生，这份文件上有两个签名，根据线下的打印信息，第一个签名是谁？ 答：何浩然。 问：何浩然的职位是什么？ 答：UBO。 问：这代表哪个协议方？ 答：转移方。 问：下一个签名，弗利先生，输入的名字是谁？ 答：何浩然。 问：职位是什么？ 答：董事。 问：这代表哪个协议方？ 答：受让方。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以同时展示 Z-13。我们是否可以放大 Z-13的第二和第三行。即使它有 些重叠也没关系。弗利先生，看这些条目——是否可以放大一些，洛夫特斯女士。看这些条目，Z-13的 第二和第三行，是否反映了我们刚刚在法律协议 GXGC-515中看到的信息？ 答：是的。 问：看这里列出的日期，放大部分中的第一个日期是 2021年 5月 6 日，该条目的金额是多少？ 答：2000万美元。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 80 / 193页 问：看左边的文件 GXGC-515，我们在贷款协议中哪里可以看到这些信息？ 答：在第五个粗体部分的转移金额下。 问：对于我们在 GX-Z-13 中突出显示的第二行，同样的问题，该条目的日期是什么？ 答：2021年 5月 13日。 问：与该转移相关的金额是多少？ 答：1500万美元。 问：我们在源文件 GXGC-515中的哪个部分可以看到这些信息？ 答：在转移金额部分。 问：看 GXZ-13 部分，资金接收方的条目——洛夫特斯女士，也许我们可以缩小并放大标题部分。这些 条目的资金接收方列为汉密尔顿 Digital Assets FD SP，这些信息在左边的贷款协议中哪里可以看到？ 答：在第三个粗体部分的资金名称下。 问：再看最右边，弗利先生，这两条目中列出的 GX编号 GXGC-515，是我们屏幕左边看到的源文件的 政府证物编号吗？ 答：是的。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以拿掉 515并保留 Z-13。弗利先生，我们刚才进行的过程，是否是你核实 Z- 13 中信息准确性所采取的过程？ 答：是的。 问：我们是否可以阅读一下图表中的一些条目，弗利先生。 所以从第一个条目开始，那份贷款协议的日期是什么时候？ 答：2021年 1月 15 日。 问：贷款人是谁？ 答：G Club Operations, LLC。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 81 / 193页 问：那笔贷款的借款人是谁？ 答：Jovial Century International Limited。 问：哪个个人代表 Jovial Century International Limited签署了那份贷款协议？ 答：何浩然。 问：谁在那份贷款协议中被列为资金接收方？ 答：Fiesta Property Developments, LTD。 问：那笔贷款的金额和货币是什么？ 答：1000万英镑。 问：你知道 GBP 代表什么吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以展示 GXGC-544。那是这个条目的源文件。如果我们做不到，回到 Z-13。 我们是否可以放大文本部分，使其大一些。弗利先生，在这个文件的左下角，你看到摘要图表中斜体字 代表什么吗？ 答：看到了。 问：斜体字代表什么？ 答：贷款未完全执行。 问：未完全执行是什么意思？ 答：缺少一个或多个签名。 问：看摘要图表中的条目，未完全执行的贷款文件的斜体字是否列在最右边的 GX列中？ 答：是的。 问：弗利先生，这些贷款反映在这个摘要图表中，基于你审查的证据，完全执行的贷款总金额是多少美 元和其他货币？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 82 / 193页 答：总共是 1.1亿美元和 1000万英镑。 问：在这个图表中反映的未完全执行的贷款总金额是多少，缺少一个或两个签名？ 答：1.92亿美元和 1000万瑞士法郎。 问：你知道 CHF代表什么吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：弗利先生，看下一个框，图表中反映的所有贷款的总金额是多少美元、英镑和瑞士法郎？ 答：3.02亿美元，1000万英镑和 1000万瑞士法郎。 问：再看我们之前看过的第二和第三行的汉密尔顿 Digital Assets，洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以展示 GXSCB-13并转到第二页。我们是否可以放大文本部分。弗利先生，你以前见过这个文件吗？ 答：没有。 问：这里顶部左边列出的实体名称是什么？ 答：汉密尔顿数字资产 FD SP。 问：看右边，这个政府证物右边的文字是什么？ 答：2021年 1月 1 日至 2022年 1月 18日的美元交易。 问：弗利先生，你读第二个日期的方式，你能解释一下为什么这样读吗？ 答：日期，月份，年份。 问：洛夫特斯女士，聚焦于第一页的前两行。 弗利先生，你看到第一条目，能读一下交易日期和价值日期吗？ 答：交易日期是 2021年 5月 6 日，价值是 2000万美元。 问：在支付收据——对不起，描述下列了什么？ 答：支付收据 G Club Operations, LLC。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 83 / 193页 问：弗利先生，同样的问题，第二行列出的交易日期是什么？ 答：2021年 5月 13日。 问：那个交易的描述是什么？ 答：支付收据 G Club Operations, LLC。 问：看贷方列，这笔交易的金额是多少？ 答：1500万美元。 问：我们回到 Z-13。弗利先生，我们刚在银行记录中看到的信息，是否与这个摘要图表的第二行和第三 行反映的信息相同？ 答：是的。 问：我想和你看另一个例子。我们可以看几行下。2021年 6月 23日的一个条目。你看到吗，弗利先 生？ 答：看到了。 问：你能读一下这个交易的贷款人和贷款签署人吗？ 答：贷款人是 G Club Operations LLC，贷款签署人是利马丽-雷耶斯-莫利纳里斯。 问：这个条目的借款人和借款签署人是谁？ 答：借款人是 G Club International Limited，借款签署人是何浩然。 问：这个特定贷款的资金接收方是什么？ 答：Yieldesta LP。 问：你知道 Yieldesta 是什么吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们是否可以展示政府证物 1639。请转到下一页。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 84 / 193页 弗利先生看——我们是否可以放大这一页的前两项。看第一项，这笔贷款的金额是多少？ 答：300万美元。 问：看第二项，你能读一下第一句直到“注册地址”吗？ 答：借款人打算将贷款投资于注册在美国特拉华州并有其注册地址的 Yieldesta LP（资金接收方）。 问：我们可以缩小。聚焦第一页的顶部部分。对不起，第二页。 这个贷款协议的生效日期是什么？ 答：2021年 6月 21 日。 问：这里列出的贷款实体是什么？ 答：G Club Operations LLC。 问：这里列出的借款实体是什么？ 答：G Club International Limited。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小。最后，弗利先生，有一个 Z-13的条目，我们是否可以展示，洛夫特 斯女士。在图表的底部四分之一。日期是 2021年 11月 23日。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：那笔贷款的贷款人和贷款签署人是谁？我们看 2021年 11月 23日。 答：贷款人是 G Club Operations LLC，贷款签署人是利马丽-雷耶斯-莫利纳里斯。 问：该贷款的借款人和借款签署人是谁？ 答：借款人是 G Club International Limited，借款签署人是何浩然。 问：从 G Club Operations LLC 到 G Club International Limited的那笔贷款金额是多少？ 答：5000万美元。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 85 / 193页 问：洛夫特斯女士，请我们看一下政府证物MER-204，转到第 135 行。弗利先生，你以前见过这个文件 吗？ 答：不，我没有。 问：文件顶部一行有一��列标题。你看到 B列的标题了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：第 135 行突出显示的实体是什么？ 答：G Club International Limited。 问：列出的日期是什么？ 答：2021年 12月 2 日。 问：这反映了什么类型的交易？ 答：一笔提款。 问：提款金额是多少？ 答：5000万美元。 问：谢谢，洛夫特斯女士。我们再回到 Z-13。弗利先生，在这个证物上有几个星号，并在左下角有一些 文字。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：那是你审查的源贷款文件中反映的信息吗？ 答：是的。 问：那是否表明这些条目中的某些条目是贷款图表中其他条目的修正？ 答：是的。 问：弗利先生，举个例子，最后一条目，借款人和借款签署人列为郭强。你看到了吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 86 / 193页 答：看到了。 问：你知道那个人是谁吗？ 答：我不知道。 莫里律师说：法官大人，可以给我点时间吗？ 法官说：可以。 莫里律师说：谢谢您，法官大人。 问：弗利先生，除了你今天的证词，你对本案有任何了解吗？ 答：没有。 问：除了审查摘要图表及其基础证物以确保准确性外，你是否还参与了政府对本案的调查？ 答：没有。 莫里律师说：没有进一步的问题了，法官大人。 法官说：交叉质询。 交叉质询 由辩方律师舒里克律师进行： 问：下午好，弗利先生。 答：下午好。 问：你作证说你是美国检察官办公室的法律助理，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：政府律师大约在一周前第一次要求你在本案中作证，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：在政府桌旁的人要求你作证之前，你实际上对本案一无所知，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 87 / 193页 答：对的。 问：你没有为坐在政府桌旁的人们在本案中做任何法律助理工作是吗？ 答：没有。 问：你没有调查我们刚才或你刚才在图表中提到的任何贷款或投资，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：所以实际上你知道的唯一的东西我认为是在直接问询中政府律师向你展示的东西，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：在今天作证之前，你与政府律师见了多少次？ 答：两到三次。 问：包括今天早上吗？ 答：今天早上没有。 问：昨天呢？ 答：也许简短地见过。 问：好的。现在，你刚才看过的图表 GXZ-13，不是你制作的，对吗？ 答：对的，不是。 问：是谁制作的？ 答：助理美国检察官朱莉· 莫里。 问：这个图表有多少张草稿？ 答：我不知道在给我之前有过多少草稿。 问：不合理的问题。那你知道的有多少草稿？ 答：三份。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 88 / 193页 问：你只是被要求根据你得到的信息审查图表的准确性，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：是否可以说你只得到了图表最右列中显示的文件？ 答：对的。 问：我们是否可以简要调出图表。为了让陪审团清楚明了，我所说的最右列是 GX列，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这是你唯一可以访问的吗？ 答：是的。 问：因此，你实际上没有审查任何可能与这些贷款相关的其他 G Club 文件，对吗？ 答：对，只是最右列的项目。 问：你没有审查任何相关公司决议这方面的权限，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：或者任何相关的电子邮件通信的权限吗？ 答：没有。 问：或者任何其他可能解释这些交易原因或目地的文件的权限，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：你也没有审查过任何银行记录，这也是对的吗？ 答：不。 问：明确一下，你没有审查过任何银行记录这一说法是准确的吗？ 答：只审查了这里的贷款记录。 问：现在我们再回到图表。标题是 G Club贷款协议和精选投资，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 89 / 193页 答：对的。 问：精选投资被撤回。 问：图表标题中提到的“精选投资”，是由检察官选择的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：所以据你所知这不是所有的投资，对吗？ 答：我对那部分没有了解。 问：无论如何，图表上写的是精选投资吗？ 答：是的。 问：我想澄清一下你在直接询问时提到的一个事情，想要明确一下。我相信你提到你看过的文件是贷款 支付记录。我认为我们刚才澄清了你没有看过任何支付记录，对吗？ 答：它们是贷款协议。 问：贷款协议。你没有看过银行记录，所以你不知道这些贷款协议是否真的有任何支付记录，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：为了清楚起见，我们在看这个时间表时没有讨论支付，对吗？ 莫里律师说：问过了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：我会往下。现在，这个图表中列出了两个不同的 G Club实体，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：G Club Operations 吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 90 / 193页 问：如果我们关注贷款人下面的第一行，然后在 2021年 7月 26 日的条目中有 G Club International Limited，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这些是不同的实体，对吗？ 答：它们的名字不同。 问：据你所知是不同的实体吗？ 莫里律师说：问过了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：现在，这两个实体的贷款都在同一个图表中，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在我们是否能突出显示第一行，2021年 1月 15 日的那一行。现在，除了我们在这里看到的第一 行，对于图表中每笔 G Club Operations发放的贷款，借款人都是 G Club International，对吗？我想您 花点时间仔细看一下这个确保您能看明白。 答：抱歉。请您再重复一遍问题。 问：好的。我觉得我们可以把图表移上去一点，让证人能看到图表。你现在能看到整个图表了吗？ 答：能看到。 问：问题是，G Club Operations发放的每笔贷款的借款人都是 G Club International吗？ 答：是的。 问：据你了解，G Club International是 G Club Operations 的唯一成员吗？ 答：我不了解。 问：我们看一下 GX1630。我们是否能转到第二页。现在，GX1630 是你在准备这个图表时审查的文件 之一，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 91 / 193页 答：对的。 问：我们是否能放大一下顶部的贷款人和借款人部分，我们是否能只关注在前言部分下，中间的“鉴于”条 款。你看到顶部“鉴于”条款中写着，借款人是贷款人的唯一成员吗？ 答：看到了。 问：这是否表明这里的借款人 G Club International是 G Club Operations 的唯一成员？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人，文件本身会说明。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：唯一成员意味着 G Club International 拥有 G Club Operations，对吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：反对有效。 舒里克律师说：我在询问他的理解。他制作了这个图表。 莫里律师说：法官大人，这歪曲了他的证词。他验证了图表的准确性。他没有制作它。这超出 了直接询问的范围。 舒里克律师说：我没有给他的证词定性。我在询问他的理解。 法官说：你理解吗？ 证人说：我是否理解借款人是贷款人的唯一成员是什么意思吗？ 法官说：这是问题吗？ 问：我在问他是否理解这意味着 G Club International是 G Club Operations 的唯一成员，没有其他成员 吗？ 答：我无法验证。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 92 / 193页 问：你知道在有限责任公司背景下的“成员”是什么意思吗？ 答：在这个背景下的不知道，不。 问：所以你刚刚在 GX1630 上看到的内容，对你来说这对实体的所有权没有任何意义吗？ 莫里律师说：问过了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：现在，我们可以去—— 我会往下走。我们可以调出——实际上，我们可以快点做完。我们是否能展 示 1630并转到第二页。我们将转到 GC-544。弗利先生，这也是你在准备图表时审查的文件之一吗？ 答：我相信是的，是。 问：这叫做设施协议。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：它是在三个实体之间签订的，G Club Operations，Jovial Century International Limited和 Fiesta Property Developments。你看到了吗？ 答：对的。 问：我们可以滚动到第二页的当事人部分，这里我们可以看到贷款人是 G Club Operations，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：借款人是 Jovial Century International，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：我们可以滚动到顶部——我们可以再往下看一点，资金接收人是 Fiesta Property Development，对 吗？ 答：是的。 问：我们可以滚动到背景部分，你看到了背景部分吗？ 答：看到了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 93 / 193页 问：那里写着，借款人是出贷人 100%的股东，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这是否意味着 Jovial，即借款人，是 G Club Operations 的 100%所有者？ 莫里律师说：法官大人，反对。文件本身会说明。 法官说：反对有效。 问：我们再往下读。下一句写道，借款人的最终受益所有人与资金接收人的最终受益所有人相同。你看 到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你知道最终受益所有人是什么意思吗？ 答：在这个背景下不知道。 问：我相信你在直接询问时作证说何先生是其中一个实体的最终受益所有人？ 莫里律师说：反对，歪曲了他的证词。 法官说：反对有效。 问：这个图表中列出的实体之间的关系，如果有的话，没有显示在图表中；这对吗？ 答：只是贷款人和接收人的关系。 问：换句话说，为了清楚起见，如果这些实体中的一个或多个拥有其他实体或在其他实体中有权益，这 没有反映在图表中，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这图表中没有反映贷款协议的条款，这是真的吗？ 答：对的。 问：我们再回到图表 GXZ-13。是否可以说，除了我们刚刚审查的第一个条目的基础协议之外，这个图表 没有反映借款人与资金接收人之间的任何基础协议？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 94 / 193页 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。 法官说：反对有效。 问：除了第一个条目外，这图表是否反映了借款人与资金接收人之间的任何关系？ 莫里律师说：反对形式。我不确定问题是什么。 问：我解释一下。这个图表反映了贷款人和借款人之间的关系，对吗？就像它将一个实体描述为出贷 人，将另一个描述为借款人？ 答：对的。 问：它反映了两个实体之间的关系吗？ 莫里律师说：反对关于关系的后续问题。 法官说：你可以分别提问。他已经回答了一个实体是贷款人，另一个是借款人的描述问题。现 在你可以问关系问题。 问：好的。一列显示某些实体是贷款人，另一列显示其他实体是借款人，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你同意这意味着图表反映了他们在这里列出的交易中的关系性质吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在，我们可以在图表中向右移动，借款人实体和资金接收人实体之间的关系没有在这个图表中反 映出来，对吗？ 莫里律师说：再次反对问题形式。 法官说：如果你知道，你可以回答。 答：我不确定借款人和资金接收者之间的关系是什么。 问：对。图表没有说明借款人和资金接收者之间的关系吗？ 莫里律师说：问题已问过并已回答。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 95 / 193页 法官说：反对有效。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我只是在澄清证人的回答。仅此而已。 法官说：你在第二次问同样的问题。这就是你在做的事情。 问：例如，你不能从这张图表中看出除了第一个条目外，资金接收者为什么会收到资金，或者借款人为 什么会与资金接收者进行交易，对吗？ 莫里律师说：这个问题带有推测性。 法官说：你可以问他文件中写了什么。这是你在问的吗？ 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我相信这是我问的问题，是否有人能从图表中看出来。 法官说：那是一个不同的问题。你在问一个人是否可以解释图表的含义。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我相信他曾就制作这张图表作证词。我只是问他，作为帮助制作它 的人，是否能说出资金接收者和借款人之间的关系是什么。 莫里律师说：再次反对，法官大人，这曲解了弗利��生的证词和他的角色。他没有制作图表。 法官说：他没有制作图表。 舒里克律师说：但他熟悉这张图表。 法官说：是的，在他有限的角色范围内。 舒里克律师说：当然，法官大人，我认为考虑到他在帮助制作这张图表时的角色，问他是否能 说出一些我不能从图表中看出的东西是公平的。 法官说：好吧，你在要求他解释图表。 舒里克律师说：作为帮助制作它的人，作为参与生成它的人。 法官说：是的，他在生成图表中发挥了作用。你被要求解释图表了吗？ 证人说：没有，只是核实准确性。 法官说：继续往下。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 96 / 193页 舒里克律师说：是否可以说，被列为借款人的实体与被列为接管人的实体之间没有任何协议， 或者你根本就不知道？ 答：我不知道。 问：那么，如果有其他合在同管理列为借款人和列为资金接收人实体之间的关系话，你也是不知道的， 对吗？ 答：我只审查了右边列出的基础证物。 问：政府给了你这些基础证物，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：现在我想麻烦你注意对图表中第二行和第三行。第二行，我们是否能简要突出显示一下，日期是 2021年 5月 6 日，第三行是 2021年 5月 13日吗？ 答：对的。 问：在这两行中，出贷人都是 G Club Operations，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：图表中没有列出出贷签署人，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：资金接收人是汉密尔顿数字资产 FD SP，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：第一条目是 2000万美元吗？ 答：是的。 问：第二条目是 1500万美元吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 97 / 193页 问：我们可以请展示 GXGC-515。我们是否可以放大相关部分。现在，这份文件中没有任何地方表明这 是一个贷款，对吗？ 答：对的，没有。 问：这里没有任何地方写着借款人，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：没有任何地方写贷款人吗？ 答：没有。 问：这是一封指示信，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：但是这包含在我们看过的标为贷款的图表中，对吗？ 答：是的，我相信它被标为贷款和精选投资。 问：在我们现在看文件的表面，有没有任何内容表明这笔交易是贷款的呢？ 莫里律师说：问过了，法官大人。 舒里克律师说：我认为我没有问过这个具体问题。 法官说：先生，你持有纽约州的执业律师执照吗？ 证人说：不，我没有。 法官说：不要问他法律问题。 问：我们是否可以保留这份文件，同时展示政府证物 1630并转到最后一页，签名页，是倒数第二页。现 在，这是另一个文件，1-6-3-0，这也是包含在图表的源文件之一，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：你看到这里的签名行上写着贷款人 G Club Operations 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 98 / 193页 答：看到了。 问：另一个签名行上写着借款人 G Club International？ 答：是的。 问：你在另一份证物 GXGC-515 上没有看到类似的词语，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：我们可以把它拿下了。谢谢。我们是否能回到图表 GXZ-13。我们是否能看一下 2021年 7月 21 日 的条目。这个条目列出了贷款人为 G Club Operations。我很抱歉，是 7月 21 日的条目，不是 26 日。这 个显示贷款人为 G Club Operations，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：借款人是 G Club International吗？ 答：是的。 问：借款签署人是何先生吗？ 答：是的。 问：资金接收人是 Himalaya International Clearing Limited，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：金额是 2500万美元，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这一行总结了源文件 GXGC-221，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：我们是否可以快速查看 GXGC-221。我们是否可以转到 pdf 的第四页，这是协议的第一页。这是 G Club Operations 和 G Club International之间的贷款协议，对吗？ 答：对的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 99 / 193页 问：我们是否可以转到倒数第二页，签名页。这个我相信你在直接询问时作证说有些协议没有——撤 回。你在直接询问中作证说有些协议没有完全执行，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：这是其中一个吗？ 答：是的。 问：现在，我们可以回到文件的开头，看到“鉴于”条款，并只关注第二个“鉴于”条款。这里写着，根据本 协议的条款，贷款人将向借款人贷款 2500万美元，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这里写着，为了效率起见，根据借款人的要求，贷款人将代表借款人将贷款收益直接发送到 Himalaya International Clearing。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：现在，让我们回到摘要图表 GXZ-13。我们可以看一下 2021年 7月 27 日的条目。那里有个小星 号。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：我们可以看图表底部的注释，这个星号表示修正。这个协议是 2021年 7月 21 日协议的修正？ 答：是的。 问：我们刚刚看了 7月 21 日的协议，对吗？ 答：对的。 问：现在让我们看一下 7月 27 日的协议，在我们看协议本身之前，请先展示 7月 21 日和 7月 27 日的 条目，一直到 7月 21 日的条目。现在我们仔细看一下 7月 21 日和 7月 27 日的条目。是否可以说唯一 的区别是有不同的资金接收人？ 答：资金接收人、日期和基础的政府证物编号。 问：谢谢。你说得对。贷款条款唯一的区别是资金接收人，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 100 / 193页 法官说：他不是律师。他不能给你法律定义。他不能定义条款。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，对不起。我不是在问他定义条款。我是在问他确认图表条目中的唯 一区别。 法官说：他可以阅读。他可以告诉你图表上的内容。 问：所以这里的区别是资金接收人是 Yieldesta，对吗？ 莫里律师说：问过了。 法官说：反对有效。 问：现在让我们展示基础证物 GX1636，我们是否能放大前言部分，上面写着，当事方于 7月 21 日签订 贷款协议。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：这是我们刚才看的另一个协议，对吗？ 莫里律师说：法官大人，反对。弗利先生是一个总结证人，这些文件本身会说明。 法官说：反对有效。 问：我们可以看最后一个“鉴于”条款，上面写着，当事方希望修正协议，授权并指示贷款人将协议的 2500万美元贷款收益直接发送到 Yieldesta，而不是 Himalaya International Clearing 有限公司？ 莫里律师说：同样的反对，法官大人。 法官说：我还没有听到问题。 舒里克律师说：我只是请他确认我是否读对了。 莫里律师说：同样的反对。 法官说：文件本身会说明。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们可以简短的边栏商谈吗？ 法官说：可以。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 101 / 193页 （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 舒里克律师说：法官大人，最后一个问题只是询问证人我是否正确地读了那段文字。即使是总 结证人，我的理解是我被允许询问证人我是否正确地阅读了文件。这是图表中的一个来源文件，我试图 表明协议中有一些变化没有反映在图表中。而且我不确定如果不能问证人关于基础文件的问题，我怎么 能做到这一点。 法官说：那么图表列出了基础文件？ 舒里克律师说：正确，我正在通过它们来显示交易中的变化没有反映在图表中。这直接关系到 图表的完整性和可靠性，我认为这是非常相关的。 莫里律师说：法官大人，对文件内容自述的持续反对主要是为了效率。这是一个总结证人。他 已经作证验证了图表的准确性。我们已经提交了支持图表条目的证物，并且它们已经列出。所以辩方可 以查看那些基础证物。但弗利先生只是确认图表中的内容的准确性，而我不认为舒里克律师所说的表明 图表不准确。根据文件，它准确地反映了文件中的图表。 舒里克律师说：我可不可以回应一下，法官大人，那就是我所要说的，因为我认为图表不准 确。我唯一能通过证人显示这一点的方法是能够询问证人关于基础文件的问题。我理解政府需要在必要 时提出反对，但如果没有持续的反对我只是在试图建立基础事实的话，我早就已经完成了。 法官说：所以他可以读文件的标题。他可以从文件中读取，但不能告诉你它的意思。 舒里克律师说：我明白。法官大人已经指出了这一点，我认为我在这里做的事情，我还没有问 过任何问题。你可以检查记录。我没有问过关于任何东西是什么意思的问题。我只是让他确认信息在基 础文件中。 莫里律师说：关于最后一个问题中的具体问题，我不清楚舒里克律师所说的图表中的哪些信息 是不准确的。 舒里克律师说：我们还没有完成交叉询问。我正在通过证人引出它，这是我唯一能做的方式。 莫里律师说：当然，但看一看，例如你刚刚读的序言， 并要求弗利先生确认，你要说在图表中不准确的那部分文件语言是什么？ 舒里克律师说：这次交叉询问有两个目的，一般来说。一个是显示图表中没有的信息，这样我 就可以向陪审团展示在文件的四个角之外可能有相关信息用于解释文件内的内容。我应该有权这么做
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 102 / 193页 第二个是显示图表中的不准确性。你刚刚提到的不是——读序言不是为了显示文件不准确，而 是为了显示图表中没有的其他信息。所以这就是两个目的。 法官说：所以图表中没有的其他信息，图表中有很多没有的信息。整个文件都不在图表中。这 就是为什么他是一个总结证人。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，如果有——辩方有权辩称有其他信息是相关的—— 法官说：你在总结时做这些，拜托。如果你想完全失去陪审团，就继续吧。继续。继续。 （在公开法庭） 法官说：好的。继续。 舒里克律师说：谢谢。 问：弗利先生，你看到屏幕上突出显示的文件部分了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：它写着，鉴于各方希望修改协议。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：现在，请把 GXGC-221 的第二页和 GX-1636并排显示。现在 GX——实际上，如果可能的话，请交 换这两个。如果不行，那也没关系。基于我们刚才读的那段话，是否可以公平地说 2021年 7月 27 日的 文件和贷款协议取代了 2021年 7月 21 日的贷款协议？ 法官说：请稍等。 （暂停） 法官说：继续。 答：可以公平地说这是一个修订。 问：所以它改变了之前的协议，对吧，这就是修订的意思？ 法官说：你在要求一个法律结论。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 103 / 193页 舒里克律师说：法官大人，他作证这是一个修订。 法官说：对。他在作证文件中所说的内容。 舒里克律师继续问：现在，我们可以回到总结图表 GXZ-13并关注 2021年 7月 21 日和 7月 27 日的两 行。这两个条目都是 2500万美元。对吗？ 答：对的。 舒里克律师继续问： 问：其中一份协议，即后来的协议，改变了早期的协议，对吗，就像你之前作证的那样？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。曲解。 法官说：反对有效。 问：我相信你作证说它修改了早期的协议？ 舒里克律师说：我相信那是证人的原话。 莫里律师说：是的，法官大人，这与“改变”不同。 法官说：修改是一个词，改变是另一个词。 舒里克律师说：好的。 舒里克律师继续问： 问：所以后来的协议修改了早期的协议，但我们在每份协议的金额栏中仍然有 2500万美元，对吗？ 答：正确。 问：好的。那么 GX Z13底部的总计算至少多了 2500万美元，对吗？ 答：那我——我不知道。 问：这不是重复计算吗？ 答：我——我无法确认付款是否已经进行。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 104 / 193页 问：对的。因为你不能从这个图表中看出是否 有实际交易，对吗？这只是贷款协议本身，只是文件。 答：这是贷款协议中列出的金额，是的。 舒里克律师说：好的。谢谢。暂时没有更多问题了。 莫里律师说：不再重问，法官大人。 法官说：谢谢。你可以退席了。 证人说：谢谢。 （证人退席） 法官说：你可以叫下一个证人了。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。政府传唤丹尼尔·科普兰。 （证人宣誓） 法官说：请说出你的名字并拼写一下。 证人说：我叫丹尼尔·科普兰。D-A-N-I-E-L, 科普兰, C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D。 法官说：你可以询问了。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 丹尼尔·科普兰，由政府传唤作证���已正式宣誓，如下作证： 直接询问 由莫里律师进行： 问：下午好，科普兰先生。 答：下午好。 问：请把麦克风拉到你面前并直接对着它讲话，好吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 105 / 193页 答：这样更好吗？ 问：这样更好。谢谢。科普兰先生，你多大了？ 答：我 29岁。 问：你住在哪里？ 答：我住在马萨诸塞州剑桥市。 问：你工作吗？ 答：我工作。 问：你的职业是什么？ 答：我是麻省理工学院的研究员。 问：你的教育背景是什么？ 答：我在范德比尔特大学学习机械工程，对医疗设备产生了兴趣，在塔夫茨大学获得了医学博士学位， 然后在麻省理工学院获得了机械工程硕士学位，现在在那里工作。 问：科普兰先生，你结婚了吗？ 答：是的。 问：你妻子叫什么名字？ 答：伊莎贝尔·德斯宾。 问：德斯宾怎么拼？ 答：D-E-S-P-I-N-S。 问：你妻子工作吗？ 答：她工作。 问：她在哪里工作？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 106 / 193页 答：她在剑桥公立学校肯尼迪-朗费罗学校工作。 问：她在那所学校的职务是什么？ 答：她是 SEI项目的三年级教师，即遮蔽式英语沉浸项目。 问：遮蔽式英语沉浸项目是什么意思？ 施洛夫律师说：反对，相关性问题。 法官说：反对无效。你可以回答。 答：这意味着她的学生在家里说不同的语言，他们来到她的课堂学习数学和其他东西，但主要是学习英 语。 问：科普兰先生，在 2022-2023学年，你妻子教哪个年级？ 答：三年级。 问：你什么时候结婚的？ 答：我在 2022年 10月结婚。 问：你岳父叫什么名字？ 答：卢克·德斯宾。 问：卢克·德斯宾做什么工作？ 答：他是破产律师。 问：科普兰先生，你今天作证是根据政府给你发的传票吗？ 答：是的。 问：科普兰先生，你能描述一下你在马萨诸塞州剑桥市的家吗？ 答：我们住在一个五户住宅，所以有五个单元。我们的单元在一楼，即地面层。它有点长，所以客厅、 餐厅和厨房都在一个房间里，直接面向街道。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 107 / 193页 问：你的家位于什么类型的社区或地区？ 答：我们住在一个住宅区。大多数房子都和我们的类似，多户住宅。相对密集，房子之间最多有 10到 15英尺的距离。大多数房子没有前院，房子正面直接在在人行道上。 问：你什么时候搬到那里的？ 答：我们在 2022年 7月搬进来的，在结婚之前。 问：谁和你住在一起？ 答：我，我的妻子和我们的狗。 问：回到 2022年末，是否有一段时间有一些人出现在你在马萨诸塞州剑桥市的家外？ 答：是的。 问：是什么情况？ 答：在 2022年 11月，有一些抗议者出现在我们家外。当时我们知道他们是因为伊莎贝尔的父亲的工作 来的。对——对。 问：关于你刚刚提到的，伊莎贝尔的父亲卢克·德斯宾做什么类型的工作？ 问：他是破产律师，但他受政府委派处理一个破产案件。 问：与谁相关的破产案件？ 答：一个我之前没有听说过，但后来查找了叫做郭文贵的人。 问：你为什么认为出现在你家门前的抗议者与卢克·德斯宾的工作有关？ 答：在他们出现在我们公寓之前，他们已经出现在卢克的工作场所和卢克的家，所以我们当时就已经明 白了，这是一个模式，他们是为了给卢克和他的家人施加压力，迫使他停止为政府处理这个案件。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们能否展示作为政府证物的 VI194。 问：科普兰先生，你认得 VI194中描绘的任何标语吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 108 / 193页 答：是的。我不能确定这些确切的标语是否在我们家外面，但标语中的一些图像肯定在我们家外面出现 过。 问：专注于左上角的标语。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，如果可以的话，请放大。 问：科普兰先生，你认得这个标语中描绘的个人吗？ 答：是的，那是伊莎贝尔的父亲，卢克。 问：伊莎贝尔的父亲和你的岳父，对吗？ 答：对，我的岳父。 莫里律师说：我们可以撤下这个，洛夫特斯女士。 问：回到 2022年 11月的那一天，你能向陪审团描述一下抗议者在你家外面做了什么吗？ 答：好的。有大约五个人。他们有类似刚刚展示的标语和一些旗帜。他们都戴着面罩和大墨镜，大多数 戴着帽子，所以他们有点像是隐姓埋名的。他们向走过的邻居分发带有类似图像和相关信息的传单。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请向证人展示标记为政府证物 3450 的物品。 问：科普兰先生，你认得政府证物 3450中的图像吗？ 答：是的。 问：那是一张什么照片？ 答：那是一张被编辑过的照片，显示卢克被某种魔鬼形象诱惑。 问：专注于照片本身，科普兰先生，你认得这件物品的照片吗？ 答：是的。我有这张传单，这是在我家外面分发的传单之一， 我的邻居给我的。 问：科普兰先生，这张传单的照片是你拍的吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 109 / 193页 答：是的。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交政府证物 3450。 施洛夫律师说：没有异议。 法官说：采纳证据。 （政府证物 3450被接受为证据） 莫里律师说：我们能否公布这个。 问：科普兰先生，现在陪审团可以看到它了，你能读一下这个传单顶部的文字和数字吗？ 答：就是大的白色文字吗？ 问：正确。 答：勒索，然后是 2.5亿，旁边有一个美元符号。 问：在这个图片的左下角被编辑或操纵的照片中的人是谁？ 施洛夫律师说：反对。 法官说：反对无效。 答：那是卢克·德斯宾的照片。 问：你看到这张特定照片中他额头上的图像了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你认得它吗？ 答：认得。 问：那是什么？ 答：是一个锤子和镰刀。 莫里律师说：好的，洛夫特斯女士，我们可以撤下这个。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 110 / 193页 问：科普兰先生，你提到在 2022年 11月，抗议者—— 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，政府是否可以直接询问。 法官说：有时候需要陈述事实以引出问题，这就是她在这里做的。你继续吧。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 问：你提到 2022年 11月的抗议者带着旗帜。你能描述这些旗帜的总体外观吗？ 答：是的。有一面旗帜是蓝色的，上面有黄色的星星，我之前没见过。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们能否公布作为政府证物W185 的物品。 如果可以，请放大这个图像的左上角部分。 问：首先，科普兰先生，你以前见过这个证物吗？ 答：整个图像吗？ 问：对。 答：没有。 问：你认得左上角蓝色框中的图像吗？ 答：是的，看起来相似——你知道，这是两年前的事情，但看起来与我记得的旗帜相似。 问：NFSC这个字母代表什么，你知道吗？ 答：知道。 问：代表什么？ 答：答案就在页面上，是新中国联邦。这是抗议者所属的组织或运动。 问：你在 2022年 11月当时是否认为抗议者与 NFSC有关联？ 施洛夫律师说：反对，带有引导性。 法官说：你当时是否认为他们与某个特定运动有关联？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 111 / 193页 证人说：是的。 问：如果有的话，是什么运动？ 答：在这一切开始之前，我不知道，但后来我看了一个 Vice新闻的报道，所以我不知道这是在他们出现 在我家之前还是之后，但我知道这个运动存在。 莫里律师说：我们可以撤下这个，洛夫特斯女士。 问：科普兰先生，2023 年初是否有一段时间，有人再次来到你家？ 答：是的。 问：你能向陪审团描述那时发生了什么吗？ 答：是的。那是——我认为是 1月 2 日。所以在 11月的那一天之后，他们停止了来访，然后他们开始定 期出现在我们家外面—— 施洛夫律师说：反对并请求删除证人对问题的非响应部分。 法官说：问题是：你能描述那时发生了什么。 证人说：好的。 答：是的，情况类似于 11月的那一天。家外面也有几个人戴着面罩、眼镜和帽子，展示类似的 标语并分发传单。 问：在 2023 年，大约是什么时候开始的？ 答：1月 2 日。 问：从 2023 年 1月 2 日开始，抗议者在你家外面的抗议大约持续了多久？ 答：从 1月 2 日到 1月 9 日，他们每天大约从早上 9点到下午 5点都在我家外面。 问：专注于 1月 2 日至 1月 9 日这段时间，抗议者在展示什么？ 答：主要是这些海报或举在棍子上的标语，上面有类似卢克戴着恶魔角的图像或文字，比如说卢克从中 国共产党那里拿钱，并且与他们合作，然后说伊莎贝尔通过卢克间接从中国共产党受益。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 112 / 193页 问：你的妻子伊莎贝尔是否参与了郭文贵的破产案？ 答：没有。 问：你的妻子伊莎贝尔是律师吗？ 答：不是。 问：你的妻子伊莎贝尔是否在郭文贵的破产案中与她的父亲卢克·德斯宾合作？ 答：没有。 问：对于抗议者在 2023 年 1月 2 日至 1月 9 日之间重新出现在你家门前，你有什么反应吗？ 答：是的，这让人非常不安，原因很多。我们刚搬到这个社区，我们不知道他们对邻居说了什么，或者 邻居会怎么看他们。我们也不太清楚。这让我们不得不放下百叶窗，因为我们的房子大部分都是可以直 接从街上看到的。早上我在家工作，知道有人站在外面让我很不安。我觉得这对我妻子的影响比对我的 还要大。所以，是的，非常不安，非常令人困扰。 问：抗议者来到你家外面时，带了什么设备吗？ 答：是的，他们会在我家外面进行直播，这也是我们总是放下百叶窗的一个重要原因，因为他们会录像 我们。如果没有放下白夜窗，他们会录像我们在家里的活动。所以——是的。 问：这让你有什么感觉吗？ 答：是的，这绝对是一种隐私的侵犯，我们也会听到他们在网上对卢克以及因此对伊莎贝尔的评论，所 以伊莎贝尔担心某些可能与这个团体有松散关联或密切关联的人真的会相信这些东西，然后试图闯入我 们的家或者跟踪她去上班或者——是的，跟踪她。 问：科普兰先生，你提到了 1月 9 日。2023 年 1月 9 日之后发生了什么？ 答：是的。所以伊莎贝尔的工作开始得很早，所以她离开——她在他们来之前就离开，她的学校在 7点 开始。 施洛夫律师说：反对，法官大人。问题是 1月 9 日之后发生了什么，而不是伊莎贝尔的工作时 间表。 法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 113 / 193页 答：所以她在早上 9点之前离开家，在他们来之前。她会在学校工作得比平常晚，所以会在那些人离开 后回家，通常是下午 5点左右回家。所以我的时间表是，我早上在家工作，但那天早上我接到了她的电 话，大约是—— 施洛夫律师说：反对，传闻。法官大人，我们可以接近讨论一下吗？ 法官说：好的。 （第 4223 至 4227 页根据法庭命令被封存） （公开法庭） 法官说：你可以继续。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 问：科普兰先生，再次把注意力集中到 2023 年 1月 10 日，你能继续告诉陪审团那天发生了什么吗？ 答：是的。伊莎贝尔在 7点之前离开家去学校，然后我在大约 9点接到了她的电话，她明显很沮丧，告 诉我他们出现在她的学校了。 问：你能描述一下从你的观察中她在电话中表现得怎么样吗？ 施洛夫律师说：他没有观察到她。他在电话中。 法官说：他可以描述通过她说话的方式所得到的印象。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 答：是的，她明显很沮丧，哭泣，难以说出话来。这是她最大的恐惧，这会影响到她的学校社区，以及 —— 法官说：所以你只谈你观察到的，不要谈她表达的言辞或想法。 证人说：明白了。 法官说：继续吧。 问：你接到电话后做了什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 114 / 193页 答：是的，我立即赶到她的学校，在剑桥。 问：你那天到达学校时看到了什么？ 答：她的学校离我家骑自行车很近，所以我骑车过去，在经过学校前面时，我��到了抗议者，然后我去 了学校的后面，一个工作人员让我进去，然后带我到校长办公室，伊莎贝尔在那里。 问：你到达校长办公室时，伊莎贝尔的状态如何？ 答：她仍然非常慌张，非常沮丧，真的非常——在哭，非常不安，充满了恐惧和担忧，不知道这意味着 什么—— 法官说：所以不要谈她的想法。你可以说你观察到的，如果你看到有人在笑，你可以说他们看 起来很高兴。 证人说：明白了。 答：她看起来非常痛苦。 问：根据你那天到达学校时的观察，抗议者是否在学校前面可见？ 答：是的。我从后面到达，但从校长办公室可以看到他们。 问：那天你有和警察交谈吗？ 答：是的。当我到达时，剑桥警察也在那儿。 问：你向警察报告了什么吗？ 答：在那时我们已经告诉了警察他们来我们家的事，所以警察在巡逻时会更频繁地经过，但当时他们不 能做更多。然后，抗议者在学校外面展示了类似的带有恶魔或血手印或血迹的标语，所以我们在讨论这 是否可以在公立学校前展示，有没有规定禁止向学童展示这些图像。 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，这些都是传闻。 法官说：所以—— 施洛夫律师说：我请求删除。 法官说：你不能谈其他人说的话。你可以谈你们讨论的总体话题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 115 / 193页 例如，我可以说我和丈夫讨论了早餐，但不能说他想要香肠、吐司和鸡蛋。明白了吗？ 证人说：明白了。 法官说：继续。 答：所以我们讨论了他们在那里的合法性。 问：在学校的会议之后，那天你做了什么？ 答：所以——所以剑桥警察说他们不知道——他们说他们不知道。这是一个非常不寻常—— 施洛夫律师说：反对。传闻。请求删除。 法官说：你不能说任何人的话。那些话被删除了。 答：所以我们去了剑桥法院，或者说剑桥所在的法院。 问：你在那里做了什么？ 答：我们——我们不太清楚有什么机制可以阻止这种事情，所以—— 施洛夫律师说：如果证人可以只回答他做了什么。 莫里律师说：法官大人—— 施洛夫律师说：思考过程与问题无关。 法官说：这是相关的。这对于解释他所做的事情是相关的。 施洛夫律师继续直接询问： 问：继续说吧。 答：所以他们建议的机制—— 法官说：好的，不要谈他们建议的内容。 证人说：是的，对不起。 问：你做了什么？你做了什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 116 / 193页 答：我们申请了骚扰保护令。 问：针对谁？ 答：我们想要去申请一个针对那些实际出现的人，但我们没有他们的名字，而这是申请骚扰保护令的要 求，所以我们针对郭文贵申请了，因为这是我们唯一知道的名字。 问：为什么，如果有任何理由，你把郭文贵的名字列在针对那些出现在你家门口和伊萨贝拉学校的抗议 者的限制令上？ 答：我们知道伊莎贝尔的父亲正在处理针对郭文贵的案件，这是过去采用过的策略，这是我们唯一有的 能为骚扰保护令列出的名字。 问：科普兰先生，有没有一个时间你撤回了那个限制令？ 答：是的。 问：大约是什么时候？ 答：那天晚上晚些时候。 问：你为什么采取了这个步骤？ 答：我们很快意识到对那些实际没有列名的抗议者没有效果，所以我们告诉他们撤销它。 问：据你所知，郭文贵本人是否曾经出现在你家外抗议？ 答：没有。 问：据你所知，他是否曾经出现在伊莎贝尔的学校外抗议？ 答：没有。 问：2023 年 1月 10 日之后，抗议活动继续了吗？ 答：是的。 问：在哪里？ 答：工作日他们会出现在她的学校，周末他们会出现在我们家。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 117 / 193页 问：他们在你家或伊莎贝尔的学校外抗议大约持续了多久？ 答：几周。 问：在那段时间你采取了什么保护自己人身安全的措施？ 答：在 11月，伊莎贝尔有一个车服务，由卢克的公司雇佣，接送她上下学。那持续了一周。1月份，剑 桥警察知道了，他们在学校出现，尤其是在第一周左右，当他们在试图弄清楚发生了什么事情的时侯， 然后——所以我被指示把我所拥有的任何武器放在卧室里，所以我在卧室里放了一根棒球棒。 问：在哪里—— 答：在我的衣柜里。 问：你把那根棒球棒保持在哪里？ 答：我把它放在靠近床的衣柜里。 问：据你所知，在抗议者于 2023 年 1月 10 日到达伊莎贝尔的学校后，卢克·德斯宾是否停止了处理郭文 贵的破产案？ 答：他没有停止工作。 问：科普兰先生，你能描述一下这些抗议活动对你在家和伊莎贝尔学校外的影响吗？ 答：是的。这非常让人不安。是的，这非常让人不安，而且——应对法院系统，看到没有什么机制能帮 助，这让我感觉—— 施洛夫律师说：反对。这与他的感受无关。 法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 答：——让我在这种情况下感到无能为力，所以，是的，那是—— 问：科普兰先生，有任何抗议者曾经身体上直接面对你或伊莎贝尔吗？ 答：没有。 问：有任何抗议者曾直接对你或伊莎贝尔说话吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 118 / 193页 答：没有。 问：在 2023 年 1月和 2月的那些周里，抗议者在你家外面的存在让你感到威胁了吗？ 答：在某种程度上，是的。 问：你能解释为什么吗？ 答：我真的不知道这些人能做什么，他们是否真的相信所说的内容，而且我们不知道，他们把我们的地 址公布在网上，所以我们不知道是否会有其他与这个团体有关或无关的人出现。而且，是的，我过去读 过一些关于人们与他们发生冲突的事情，所以，是的，这很不安。 问：是否有一段时间抗议者停止来到你家或伊莎贝尔的学校？ 答：是的。 问：大约是什么时候？ 答：几周——我不确定具体日期——在 1月 10 日之后。 问：你知道他们为什么停止来了吗？ 答：不，我不知道为什么。 问：科普兰先生，除了我们之前讨论的限制令外，你还针对郭文贵采取过其它行动吗？ 答：没有。 问：你或你的妻子曾尝试绑架郭文贵吗？ 答：没有。 问：你曾尝试代表中国共产党将他遣返中国吗？ 答：没有。 问：你现在或者曾经是中国共产党的代理人吗？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 119 / 193页 莫里律师说：法官大人，我能稍等一下吗。 法官说：可以。 莫里律师说：没有进一步的问题。谢谢。 法官说：交叉询问。 施洛夫律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 交叉询问 施洛夫律师继续问： 问：下午好，科普兰先生。 答：下午好。 问：科普兰先生，你在直接询问中说你是根据传票作证的，对吗？ 答：对。 问：谁给你送达了传票？请大声点。 答：政府给我送达了传票。是—— 问：请大声点。 答：政府。 问：怎么送达的？ 答：通过卢克的公司雇佣的一名律师，我想。 问：什么？ 答：通过卢克的公司雇佣的一名律师。 问：卢克，是指你岳父吗？ 答：他的公司，我想。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 120 / 193页 问：他的公司是什么？ 答：保尔·黑斯廷斯律师事务所。 问：保尔·黑斯廷斯为你雇了一名律师？ 答：是的。 问：所以莫里律师通过保尔·黑斯廷斯雇佣的律师向你送达了传票，对吗？ 答：这是我的理解，是的。 问：你怎么收到的？ 答：什么？ 问：你怎么收到的传票？ 答：通过这名律师。 问：什么方式？他是通过邮件发送的吗，邮寄给你的吗？ 答：哦，邮件。 问：好的。那么收到邮件传票后，你做了什么？ 问：让我换个问题，好吗，稍等一下。传票上的回传日期是什么时候？ 答：我不知道。 问：你读了传票吗？ 答：没有。 问：你打开了吗？ 答：没有。 问：你只是去见了莫里律师，对吗？ 答：不。这不准确。我见了代表我的这名律师。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 121 / 193页 问：好的。然后这名律师和你一起见了莫里律师，还是分别见的？ 答：对不起，你能再说一遍吗？ 问：当然。你见了这名律师，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你没有为这名律师付费，对吗？ 答：我个人没有。 问：好的。那么这名律师——不要告诉我建议是什么。然后这名律师让你和莫里律师联系，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你见莫里律师时，那名律师在场吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。你们在哪里见面？ 答：在 Zoom或 Teams 之类的视频会议上。 问：好的。所以传票没有告诉你必须去见她，对吗？传票是让你来法庭，对吗？ 答：是的，听起来是这样。 问：对的。但是你决定要去见她，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你没有义务去见她，对吗？ 答：我认为是对的。 问：对。你本可以只是回应传票，来作证然后离开，对吗？ 答：是的，我可以那样做。 问：你见了她几次？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 122 / 193页 答：两次。 问：两次都是在 Zoom上还是一次是亲自见面，一次是 Zoom？ 答：两次都是在 Zoom上，然后今天我们握了手，但那是全部了。 问：好的。第一次你在 Zoom上见她时，会议持续了多久？ 答：两小时。 问：第二次在 Zoom上见面是多久？ 答：一个小时。 问：一个小时。好的。可以这么说，对吗，政府是你在这里作证前唯一见过的人，对吗？你没有见过 我，对吗？ 答：我没有见过你。 问：好的。当你和莫里律师谈话时，她在记录你说的话吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：好的。她问了你问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你告诉了她你现在告诉陪审团的故事，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你做了记录吗？ 答：是的。 问：你把记录交给了莫里律师吗？ 答：我认为只是一些后勤问题，比如我需要在哪里和什么时候到。 问：好的。她给你提供了几次后勤安排？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 123 / 193页 答：我认为随着时间推移稍微有些变化。所以可能有两次，或许。我不确定。 问：她是怎么联系你的，她打电话给你还是发短信给你？ 答：我们只通过 Zoom链接见面。她从未通过其他方式联系我，可能是通过电子邮件，但主要是 Zoom 链接。 问：你今天怎么知道要来这里？ 答：卢克的公司雇佣的律师处理了最后的后勤问题，告诉我在哪里见他以及如何进入大楼之类的事情。 问：好的。当你见莫里律师时，你基本上告诉她你现在在陪审团前作证的所有内容，对吗？ 答：是的，差不多。 施洛夫律师说：现在让我们看看能否展示政府在直接询问中向你展示的 3450号证物。政府向你 展示了这张照片，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：这是你交给莫里律师的照片，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。这张照片是你保存在家里的，对吗？ 答：我有那张传单。 问：好的。你知道顶部部分写的是什么吗，我们看不清楚的部分？ 答：黄色部分吗？不，我不知道。 问：是的，黄色部分。 答：不，我没有记住。 问：好的。那白色部分写的是什么，你也不记得了，对吗？ 答：你在看哪里？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 124 / 193页 问：底部。你看到那个小角落了吗？ 答：在框里？ 问：是的。 答：是的，我不知道那写的是什么，不。 问：好的。你作证说这是邻居给你的传单，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：当邻居给你传单时，他对你的困境表示同情，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：他为你感到难过？是她？ 答：是的，但她。 问：对。从这些抗议到现在，你一直住在同一个社区，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：基本上你的邻居都支持你，对吗？ 答：我们认识并向他们解释过的那些邻居，是的。 问：这比我们在纽约做得多得多。我们不和任何人说话。但你交谈过的邻居，��们支持你，对吗？是 吗？ 答：我谈过的那些邻居，是的。 问：好的。在你住在那里期间，抗议者在你家对面抗议，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：他们不在你家同一条街上，对吗？ 答：他们在同一条街上。他们在街道的对面。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 125 / 193页 问：对。所以这是你的家，他们在这里，对吗？ 答：如果那是街道的话，是的。 问：好的。 答：那是一条单向单车道的街道。 问：好的。你作证说这发生在 11月，对吗？ 答：他们第一次出现是在 11月。 问：那是冬天的月份，对吗？ 答：严格来说，不是。 问：严格来说，不是？11月不是冬天？ 答：是秋天。 问：好的。那么 1月呢？ 答：那是冬天。 问：那么 12月呢？ 答：大部分是秋天。 问：好的。等等。12月也是秋天？ 答：是的。 施洛夫律师继续交叉询问： 问：好的。那么你看到了戴口罩的人，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你看到了戴帽子的人，对吗？ 答：是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 126 / 193页 问：这些人从未接近你，对吗？ 答：他们在我家外面，但从未接近我。 问：我听不清你的话，对不起。 答：他们在我家外面；他们从未接近我。 问：对。 答：比如说，如果我走出去，他们不会走到我跟前。 问：对。所以你可以去杂货店，做自己的事情；他们从未走到你面前，对吗？ 答：对。 问：他们从未伤害你，对吗？ 答：身体上没有，绝对没有。 问：没有。而且他们也从未威胁要伤害你，对吗？ 答：没有直接威胁。 问：好吧，告诉我他们是如何间接威胁你的。 答：我是说，他们举着写有我妻子名字的血腥标语，所以那有点—— 问：好吧，关于血腥标语上的名字，我没看到你的妻子名字在上面。 答：她的名字在上面。 问：那么让我们把那放在一边，因为我们稍后会谈到，好吗？ 答：好的。 问：但是没有带有你名字的血腥标语，对吗？ 答：我的名字没有。 问：而且这些血腥标语不会身体上伤害你，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 127 / 193页 答：那是对的。 问：他们也从未威胁要身体上伤害你，对吗？ 答：那是对的，是的。 问：好的。当他们带有关于你妻子的血腥标语时，不幸的是，你妻子与卢克·德斯宾有关，对吗？ 答：她是他的女儿。 问：对。所以标语上没有专门针对你妻子的内容，她与她的父亲有关，对吗？上面写的是伊莎贝尔·德斯 宾，卢克的女儿，从卢克·德斯宾那里受益，对吗？ 答：他们会写类似“伊莎贝尔·德斯宾，你不是无辜的”，带有血手印。 问：好的。一秒钟。 所以上面有她的姓，对吗？她仍然使用她的姓氏，这也是她父亲的姓，对吗？ 答：对。是的。 问：好的。我假设在这一整段时间里，你和你的妻子是住在一起的，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：今天在这里，你可以告诉陪审团，没有人身体上威胁过你的妻子，对吗？ 答：没有人身体上——没有人当面言语或身体上威胁过她，这是对的。 问：好的。你碰巧知道抗议者的年龄吗？你能判断吗？ 答：我只能猜测。 问：对。你记得有一个总是来抗议的个子矮的老太太吗？ 答：我不记得任何个人。他们戴着面罩，故意遮住了脸。 问：这是在 2020年 11月吗？ 答：一天是在 2020年 11月，其余是在 1月。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 128 / 193页 问：好的。在 2020年 11月的那一天，你报警了吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。他证实的日期被误述了。 问：对不起。你告诉我日期吧，先生。我忘记了。抱歉。 答：我想是 11月 20 日。 问：11月 20 日？ 莫里律师说：只是关于年份的问题。 问：是哪一年？ 答：2022年。 问：对不起。2022年 11月 20 日。你报警了吗？ 答：我想是的。 问：你报了，对吗？ 答：我想是的。我——我不百分之百确定，但可能是的。 问：警察没有让他们离开，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：警察有没有给你一个理由，为什么不让他们离开？ 答：有—— 莫里律师说：反对。这涉及传闻。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你对警察为什么不让他们离开有什么印象吗？你对警察为什么不让他们离开有什么理解吗？ 莫里律师说：同样的反对，法官大人，因为这涉及传闻。 法官说：如果你有一个独立于警察解释之外的理解。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 129 / 193页 答：是的，我的意思是，警察解释过——他们解释了，但——在他们解释之前，我不知道规则是什么。 问：好的。但警察来了，然后让抗议者留在那里，对吗？ 答：是的，那是对的。 问：然后他们最终回家了，对吗？ 答：抗议者吗？ 问：是的。警察也回家了，但抗议者一定回家了。 答：是的。 问：然后我们在你的直接询问中谈了很多关于 1月份的抗议，对吗？ 答：取决于你认为很多是什么，但我想是的。 问：好的。在 1月份你也报警了，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：警察回应了，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：事实上，他们对你很响应；他们会为你巡逻，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：他们想确保你的安全，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你住在一个警察确实响应的好社区，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。当警察巡逻时，他们驱散了人群吗？ 答：没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 130 / 193页 问：没有，对吗？是还是不是？抱歉。 答：没有。 莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过了。 施洛夫律师说：我听不见他，所以—— 答：没有。 问：好的。所以人群还在那里，但警察也在那里保护你，对吗？ 答：他们不是全天在那，但他们——是的，他们接电话。 问：好的。你作证说这些人站在外面，他们有一些设备，对吗？ 答：设备是指摄像机，是的。 问：好的。就像是一个摄像机，还是整个装置，比如视频和所有随附设备？ 答：他们有三脚架。 问：他们有三脚架，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你从未看到你家中的任何东西被发布在互联网上，对吗？ 答：不，那不是真的。 问：你确实看到你家内部被发布在互联网上？ 答：我看到——从抗议者的角度拍摄的我们家的照片被发布在互联网上。 问：不，不。那是你家外部的外观，对吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。已经问过并回答过了。 施洛夫律师说：我没有问这个问题。 问：视频是不是拍摄你家的外部？这是我的问题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 131 / 193页 答：是的，是我家外面的。 问：没有人拍你家的狗并发布在互联网上，对吗？ 答：那时候我们还没有狗。 问：好的。在整个过程中，这些抗议者仍然被——叫做什么，剑桥警察，波士顿警察，灯塔山警察允许 留在那里？是哪个？ 答：剑桥警察。等一下。对不起。问题是什么？我在回答问题的那部分。他们被允许留在那里？ 问：对。 答：是的。 问：他们没有被罚款，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：他们没有被告知解散，对吗？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。他不会知道。 法官说：他可能观察到他们被罚款。他可能观察到警察驱赶他们。 答：据我所知没有。 问：你作证说在衣柜里放了一根棒球棒，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：从来没有用过那根棒球棒，对吗？ 答：不是用于家庭防卫。 施洛夫律师说：好的。给我一点时间。 法官说：继续。 问：让我给你看一个标记为辩护方证物 70777 的东西。我只会给你和政府律师看，好吗？以及法庭。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 132 / 193页 你看到这张照片吗？ 答：是的。 问：这些是你家外面的抗议者吗？ 你认得这张照片吗？ 答：我不认得这张照片。我认得照片的环境。 问：什么环境？ 答：环境是我家外面。 问：你家外面，对吗？ 答：是的。 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，我们申请将其作为证据。 莫里律师说：没有异议。 法官说：准许。 （辩护方证物 70777被接纳为证据） 问：这些是抗议者吗？ 答：我从未见过在我家外面没有戴大墨镜的人。个人上没有见过——这张照片是不同的，所以他们看起 来不像是我家外面的人，或者他们看起来不像在我家外面的样子。 施洛夫律师说：好的。一分钟。我想确保陪审团有这张照片。 问：好的。最左边的那个人，对吗？ 答：好的。 问：那边笑着的那个？ 答：我看到了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 133 / 193页 问：戴着眼镜？没有口罩，对吗？ 答：是的，没错。 问：好的。那边戴帽子的女士呢，没有口罩？ 答：她没有戴口罩。 问：好的。那位穿黄色外套的女士；她戴着防疫口罩，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：旁边的那个男人？是吗？没有口罩？ 答：是的，没有口罩，对，正确。 问：这些是会出现的四五个人，对吗？ 答：对不起？ 莫里律师说：反对。已经问过并回答过了。而且我不确定她指的是哪些人。 法官说：问题是什么？ 施洛夫律师说：没关系。 问：你确认为这是你家外面，对吗？ 答：这是我家外面，是的。 施洛夫律师说：好的。我们可以撤下这个。 问：你作证说你申请了保护令，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：你被授予了保护令，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：保护令是针对郭文贵的，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 134 / 193页 答：是的。 问：好的。这个保护令基本上是——你告诉我，对吗——说郭文贵必须离你多远的距离，对吗？这是保 护令的内容吗？ 答：我不确定。我认为——这似乎合理。我不太确定规定是什么。 问：好的。 答：是的。 问：保护令发给你了，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：为什么要撤回它？ 答：与执法部门谈话后，确定这对我们的情况没有帮助。 问：好的。但是为什么要撤回它？它在那里。谁在乎？ 莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过了，法官大人。 法官说：反对有效。 问：我问你：为什么要撤回它？ 答：是的，我们不想寄出它，因为我们不想进入一场没有帮助的法律战。 问：好的。郭先生从未回应，对吗？ 答：没有。 问：他从未离你多远的距离，对吗？ 答：据我所知没有。 问：自 2023 年 1月 10 日以来，你家没有再有抗议活动吗？ 答：那不对。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 135 / 193页 问：2023 年 1月之后还有抗议吗？ 答：持续了几周，所以可能—— 问：不，不。我的意思是 2023 年 1月整个月之后。 答：可能持续到 2月，但之后没有。 问：之后没有，对吗？ 答：是的，之后没有。 问：好的。所以在直接询问中你说它在 1月停止，现在你不确定，可能持续到 2月；是这样说的吗？ 莫里律师说：法官大人，反对。这歪曲了他的证词。 法官说：反对有效。 问：好的。你告诉我。 答：抗议从 1月 2 日开始，他们每天都在，直到 1月 9 日，然后他们在周末在我们家，在工作日在学 校。 问：好的。然后什么时候停止的？ 答：1月 10 日之后几周，所以—— 问：你没有记录什么时候停止的？ 答：没有。 问：这非常令人不安的事情，你没有记录什么时候停止的。 莫里律师说：已经问过并回答过了。 法官说：反对有效。 施洛夫律师说：我没有其他问题了。 法官说：再次直接询问？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 136 / 193页 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。如果可以的话，请辩护方展示辩护方证物 70777。我非常感 谢。 再次直接询问 由莫里律师进行： 问：科普兰先生，你在交叉询问中被问到了一些问题—— 施洛夫律师说：哦，我没有它。你有吗？ 问：你在交叉询问中被问到一些关于这张照片的问题。你还记得吗？ 答：大致记得。 问：施洛夫律师问了你关于左边那个快乐抗议者的问题。你还记得这些问题吗？ 答：是的。 问：在抗议者出现在你家外面的那些周里，你有没有看到任何抗议者在笑？ 答：没有。 问：我们可以关注这些标语的底部，靠近血手印的字是什么？ 答：上面写着：“伊莎贝尔·德斯宾，你不是无辜的。” 问：抗议者在你家外面举着这些标语，上面有血手印和你妻子的名字，这对你来说有什么威胁吗？ 答：有什么威胁？ 问：是的。这对你来说如何感到威胁？ 答：好吧，这正在互联网上直播，所以即使这里的人和平抗议，也可能有其他人相信伊莎贝尔以某种方 式参与，或者相信这些标语上所说的内容，然后试图伤害我们，或者，嗯，你知道——是的。 莫里律师说：我们可以撤下这个。非常感谢。 问：科普兰先生，根据你的观察，这些标语对你的妻子有什么影响？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 137 / 193页 答：非常大。她是一个——有点——呃，更加紧张—— 施洛夫律师说：反对。 莫里律师说：这些是他的观察，法官大人。 施洛夫律师说：反对。 法官说：你可以描述你对她的观察。继续。 答：好的。在超过八年的观察中，我发现她是一个非常紧张的人。她真的很关心——我见证了她对学校 社区的奉献。我看到她有多关心—— 施洛夫律师说：反对。请求删除。 答：——她的工作。 法官说：反对无效。你可以继续。 答：我看到她有多么——多么压力大——是的，我看到这对她有多么困难。我看到她真的很关心她的学 生，确保他们在学校的安全和舒适，以及他们在学校和她身边的感觉。我看到她认为自己可能会给这些 孩子的生活带来额外的创伤，这对她产生了负面影响。 问：科普兰先生，你在交叉询问中被问到撤销对郭文贵的限制令的问题。你还记得那些问题吗？ 答：是，是的。 问：你在对郭文贵申请限制令时有什么担忧吗？ 答：我担心我们会陷入一些无意义、耗时且无结果的法律纠纷，所以觉得不值得。 莫里律师说：法官大人，我能稍等一下吗？ 法官说：可以。 莫里律师说：谢谢你，科普兰先生。没有进一步的问题了。 法官说：再次交叉询问吗？ 施洛夫律师说：你可以把照片放回去吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 138 / 193页 再次交叉询问 施洛夫律师继续询问： 问：莫里律师问你关于这张特定照片的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：她问你是否见过任何在笑的抗议者，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：科普兰先生，公平地说，你不特别想与他们眼神接触，对吗？ 答：是的，我会这么说。 问：对。他们在抗议，你不希望他们抗议，对吗？ 答：我不希望他们在我们家外面或我妻子的学校外抗议。 问：正是如此。正是如此。这是个麻烦，对吗？ 答：麻烦是一种说法。我会用另一种说法。 问：吓人，对吗？ 莫里律师说：法官大人，她能让证人回答完吗？ 法官说：请回答完你的问题。 答：是的，吓人。 问：吓人，对吗？所以你不愿与他们眼神接触，对吗？ 法官说：已经问过并回答过了。 问：所以你不会知道是否有人在笑或不笑，对吗？ 答：我从未见过他们笑，也没见过他们的脸。他们在我看时都戴着口罩。 问：你看时他们都戴着口罩；这是你的记忆，对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 139 / 193页 答：是的，这是我的记忆。 施洛夫律师说：好的。你可以把它撤下。 等一下。其实，留在这里。 问：莫里律师还问了你一些关于这些语言让你感觉的问题，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：好的。这些语言都不愉快，对吗？ 答：是的，我会说这些语言令人不安。 问：对。而警察知道这些令人不安的语言，对吗？ 答：可能吧。他们开车经过，所以我猜是的。 问：他们继续允许抗议，对吗？ 答：是的。 施洛夫律师说：好的。我们可以撤下这个。 问：现在莫里律师问了你关于你妻子的问题，对吗？ 答：我相信是的。我相信是的。 问：你说的一个答案是她非常关心她学校的孩子，对吗？ 答：是的。 问：她在公立学校教书，对吗？ 答：她仍然在公立学校教书，同一所学校。 问：对。这基本上是一个英语作为第二语言的班级，对吗？ 答：她的班级是英语作为第二语言的班级。她的学校还有一个普通公立学校。 问：好的。是否可以说学校支持她？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 140 / 193页 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。超出范围。 法官说：反对有效。 施洛夫律师说：她问的是她的反应和他的观察。这在范围内。 法官说：不是关于学校做了什么。 问：你的妻子是否觉得学校支持她？ 莫里律师说：反对，法官大人。 施洛夫律师说：这在范围内。 法官说：反对有效。他可以描述他观察到的情况。 问：好的。你观察到校长支持你妻子吗？ 答：在 1月 10 日，我会说是的。其他时候，她有时会认为学校的处理方式不同于她的处理方式，但是— — 问：我听不清你的话。对不起。但没关系。 问：你观察到其他老师支持你妻子吗？ 答：没有，我没有观察到，我是从我妻子那里听说的。 问：好的。你作证了抗议的持续时间，对吗？你作证了日期，对吗？ 答：是的，据我所知是的。 问：对。那个日期是特定于你家的吗，还是你坐在这里，知道那个日期同样适用于学校附近的抗议？ 莫里律师说：反对，问题形式不对。 法官说：反对有效。 问：你知道他们在学校外抗议了多久吗？ 答：我想是 1月 10 日之后的几周，工作日里。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 141 / 193页 问：1月 10 日之后，对吗？ 答：从 1月 10 日开始的几周。 问：好的。它在 2月之前结束，对吗？ 莫里律师说：反对。已经问过并回答过了。 法官说：反对有效。 施洛夫律师说：我问的是学校，不是家。 法官说：现在是 2:29。 施洛夫律师说：法官大人，我还有两个问题。 法官说：继续。 问：当你得到对郭文贵的保护令时，你有送达他吗？ 莫里律师说：问过并回答过，法官大人。 施洛夫律师说：不。我没有问过他是否被送达了。 法官说：你亲自送达他了吗？ 证人说：没有。 问：所以郭先生甚至不知道有这个保护令，对吗？ 莫里律师说：反对。 法官说：他不能说郭先生知道什么。 问：自从你得到保护令或撤销保护令后，郭先生没有与你进行任何诉讼，对吗？ 答：对。 问：他从未起诉过你，对吗？ 莫里律师说：问过并回答过了。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】
O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 142 / 193页
法官说：反对有效。
问：他从未起诉过你妻子，对吗？
答：对。
施洛夫律师说：好的。非常感谢。
莫里律师说：没有进一步的问题。谢谢。
法官说：谢谢你，先生。你可以退席了。
（证人退席）
法官说：现在是休息时间。我们将在半小时后重新开庭。记住，你们不能私下讨论案件，也不
能允许任何人在你们面前讨论案件。不要阅读、收听或观看任何与此案件有关的内容。
（陪审团不在场）
法官说：你们可以坐下。还有其他事情吗？
莫里律师说：政府这边没有。
施洛夫律师说：没有，法官大人。谢谢。
芬克律师说：只是，我们刚才在侧栏讨论的问题，辩护方通知我们，双方已经达成了协议。
法官说：好的。谢谢。
（休庭）
法官说：让陪审员们进来吧。
书记员说：陪审团进入。
（陪审团在场）
法官说：请坐下，并请传唤下一位证人。
芬克律师说：是的，法官大人。政府传唤斯蒂芬·约翰逊。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 143 / 193页 斯蒂芬·约翰逊（宣誓后作证）： 法官说：请说出你的名字并拼写。 证人说：斯蒂芬·约翰逊，S-T-E-P-H-E-N, J-O-H-N-S-O-N。 法官说：你可以坐下并对着麦克风讲话。你可以开始询问。 直接询问： 由芬克律师进行： 问：下午好，约翰逊先生。 答：你好。 问：你在哪里工作？ 答：证券交易委员会。 问：证券交易委员会是什么？ 答：它是一个保护投资者并调查证券欺诈的政府机构。 问：它独立于司法部吗？ 答：是的。 问：你在证券交易委员会的职务是什么？ 答：部门主管。 问：你能简要地向陪审团成员描述一下你作为证券交易委员会部门主管的工作吗？ 答：我在纽约地区办公室监督一组调查员，同时我也参与调查。 问：约翰逊先生，我要请你把麦克风对准你的嘴巴。你可以随意调整它。 法官说：这里的声学效果不好。你必须直接对着麦克风说话。 芬克律师说：法官大人，我可以靠近吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 144 / 193页 法官说：可以。 芬克律师说：我正在接近证人，带着一个标记为 GX-37 的 USB驱动器。 法官大人，我表示这个 USB驱动器包含政府证物 GXSM系列中的以下项目：11、12、17到 21、62、73、88、96、126到 130、133、147、149、151、155、156、159、170、176、178、180、 181、183、187、189、191、201、205、206、208、210、217、218、224、226、227、233、235、 237、252、264、277、283、284、287、296到 299 和 310。 问：约翰逊先生，你认得我刚递给你的 USB驱动器吗？ 答：是的。 问：你怎么认得它的？ 答：我在上面签了名。 问：你审查过这个 USB驱动器的内容吗？ 答：我审查过。 问：上面有什么？ 答：56 个文件，是 Saraca媒体集团根据传票向证券交易委员会提供的一部分。 芬克律师说：法官大人，此时政府提出 SM系列中的 11、12、17、18、19、21、73、96、 126、127、129、130、133、147、149、151、155、156、159、170、176、178、181、210、217、 218、224、226、235、252、277、283、296到 299。 舒里克律师说：反对，法官大人。我们能在侧栏讨论一下吗？ 法官说：好的。 （边栏会议讨论） 舒里克律师说：我们的理解是，这位来自证券交易委员会的证人将要作证 SEC是如何接收这些 文件的。这些文件是 Saraca 提供的，所以我认为这位证人不能证明底层文件的真实性。他只能证明 SEC接收了这些文件。但对于底层文件本身的真实性，他没有任何知识。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 145 / 193页 法官说：那么他是否检查过这些文件？换句话说，他是否在接收端？ 舒里克律师说：他说他审查过这个 USB驱动器。 法官说：继续。 芬克律师说：我很乐意提供更多的基础证明。我期望这位证人将作证的是，他审查了 SEC存储 这些材料的情况。他将这些材料与 Saraca 律师的封面信进行对比，核实了 Bate 编号与 Saraca 律师的 封面信相符。他审查了 USB驱动器上的每个文件，并将其与 SEC系统中存储的文件进行对比，能够根 据他对 SEC文件处理协议的了解确认这些文件都是由 Saraca 提供的。 这些文件，我也可以告诉法庭，是费用报告。事实上，法官大人，这是一个费用报告，与 Karin Maistrello 的证词中提到的相似但不完全相同。Karin Maistrello 在她的证词中讨论了这是 Saraca 和金泉 通常使用的付款表格。USB驱动器上的文件是类似的文件，具有类似的签名、类似的识别信息和 Saraca 金泉的名称。 此外，USB驱动器上还有两个文件是海曼的文件。正如法庭可能记得的，海曼收到了来自 Saraca媒体的投资。USB驱动器上的两个文件是 Saraca签署的最终文件，王雁平和Max Krasner签署 的，以完成 Saraca 的投资协议。以及 Haynes and Boone寄给 Saraca 的信，询问这笔钱的来源。这些 文件已经在 Steele Schottenheimer 的证词中作为证据提交。她从海曼那里提供了这些文件，与 Saraca 提供给 SEC的文件相符。这是说，法官大人，这些文件有多个迹象表明其真实性，允许一个合理的陪审 员认为这些文件是真实的。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我认为这里有两个问题。一个是真实性问题，并且保持反对意见， 即这位证人不能证明 Saraca 文件的真实性。根据他的知识，这位证人最多只能说这些文件是 SEC收到 的。如果这是政府想要得到的事实，那没问题。但对于底层的 Saraca 文件，他不能证明其真实性。 法官说：我认为他们只是在让他说这些是 SEC收到的文件，对吗？ 芬克律师说：完全正确。 法官说：好的。就这样。继续吧。 （在公开法庭上） 芬克律师说：政府重申提交证物的请求。 法官说：请问几个基础问题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 146 / 193页 由芬克律师继续询问： 问：约翰逊先生，你怎么知道这些材料是由 Saraca 提供给 SEC的？ 答：当我们发出传票时，传票中包含了如何返回文件及以何种格式返回的说明，所有人都被指示将文件 返回到一个集中的生产单位或 CPU，这是 SEC的一个部门，负责接收所有文件。他们会将文件加载到 我们的电子发现平台 Case Point中，每个文件根据事项编号、提供方和提交日期进行加载。 问：你做了什么来确认这个 USB 上的文件是由 Saraca 提供的？你采取了哪些步骤来确认这些文件在 SEC系统中？ 答：我在这个 USB驱动器上打开了文件，并在另一台显示器上按 Bates编号在 Case Point系统中打开 了相同的文件。 问：你是否打开了 USB驱动器上的每个文件？ 答：是的。 问：你将 USB驱动器上的每个文件与什么进行对比？ 答：页面数量、页面标题和 Bates编号。 问：Bates编号在 SEC系统中与哪个实体相关联？ 答：Saraca媒体集团。 芬克律师说：政府重申提交之前列出的文件。 舒里克律师说：同样的反对意见，法官大人。 法官说：准许接纳。 （政府证物 SM-11、SM-12、SM-17、SM-18、SM-19、SM-21、SM-73、SM-96、SM-126、 SM-127、SM-129、SM-130、SM-133、SM-147、SM-149、SM-151、SM-155、SM-156、SM-159、 SM-170、SM-176、SM-178、SM-181、SM-210、SM-217、SM-218、SM-224、SM-226、SM-235、 SM-252、SM-277、SM-283、SM-296至 SM-299 作为证据接纳） 由芬克律师继续询问：
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 147 / 193页 问：约翰逊先生，你能向陪审团描述一下什么是传票吗？ 答：传票是我们在调查过程中发出的信息请求。 问：你是否亲自参与了针对 Saraca 的调查？ 答：没有。 问：你是否亲自参与了针对郭文贵的调查？ 答：没有。 问：或者 GTV？ 答：没有。 问：或者 G Coins？ 答：没有。 问：除了你今天的证词和你刚才描述的审查外，你是否在这个案件中有其他任何参与？ 答：没有。 问：我们能否展示 GXSM-77。这是 Saraca 提供的文件之一吗？ 答：是的。 问：你看到上面写着 Saraca媒体集团公司付款请求表格吗？ 答：是的。 问：下面写着收款人是 Voice of Guo Media公司。你看到了吗？ 答：是的。 问：付款金额是多少？ 答：7875 美元。 问：顶部有两个字母，你看到了吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 148 / 193页 答：看到了。 问：你知道MK代表什么吗？ 答：不知道。 问：我们可以看看下一页吗？ 问：约翰逊先生，我说的对吗，这个文件附在付款请求表格后面？ 答：是的。 问：你能读一下支票下面写的内容吗，上面写着Voice of Guo Media？ 答：是的。嗨，Max，负责人聘请了新开发者来开发 G News，他们急需支付 7875 美元。你能通过以下 方式支付吗：路由号码是。 问：你不必读那些号码。 问：你知道负责人是谁吗？ 答：不知道。 问：我们可以看下一页吗，洛夫特斯女士，以及再下一页。 问：在“谢谢”下面，能读一下它写的内容吗？ 答：不，还在谈判中，但负责人希望今天支付。我们可以先在没有合同的情况下支付。谢谢。 问：我们可以把这个撤下，能否展示 SM-283。 问：约翰逊先生，这份 Saraca媒体集团的付款请求表格的收款人是谁？ 答：王雁平。 问：你知道她是谁吗？ 答：不知道。 问：付款总金额是多少？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 149 / 193页 答：30,906.56 美元。 问：我们可以展示 SM-296。这份文件的收款人是谁？ 答：李娅。 问：金额是多少？ 答：2850 美元。 问：我们可以看下一页吗？ 问：左上角的日期是什么？ 答：2020年 4月 27 日。 问：我们可以把这个撤下，能否展示 SM-178。 问：在这份 Saraca媒体集团的付款请求表格中，收款人是谁？ 答：Max Krasner。 问：你知道那是谁吗？ 答：不知道。 问：Max Krasner 的付款金额是多少？ 答：30,906.56 美元。 问：我们可以展示 SM-73。这个文件的收款人是谁？ 答：艾伦·米切尔。 问：费用的日期是什么？ 答：2020年 6月 3日。 问：艾伦·米切尔在这份文件上应支付的金额是多少？ 答：30,906.56 美元。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 150 / 193页 问：你是否知道这些金额是否实际支付了？ 答：不知道。 问：我们可以看 SM-235。 问：这份文件的收款人是谁？ 答：新英格兰房屋检查。 问：付款金额是多少？ 答：1750 美元。 问：你能读一下屏幕中间偏右的费用目的是什么吗？ 答：建筑检查。 问：用于什么？ 答：康涅狄格州格林威治的 373 Taconic Road。 问：你曾去过 373 Taconic吗？ 答：没有。 问：洛夫特斯女士，能否放大底部。有一个小星号。你能读一下那个星号吗，约翰逊先生？ 答：付款请求表格必须由首席运营官伊薇特和/或运营总监梅丽莎批准。 问：我们可以把这个撤下，能否展示 SM-151。 问：这份文件的收款人是谁？ 答：格林威治土地公司。 问：你知道那是什么实体吗？ 答：不知道。 问：金额是多少？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 151 / 193页 答：200万美元。 问：我们可以展示 SM-147。 问：这份文件上的收款人是谁？ 答：Go Daddy。 问：金额是多少？ 答：149.97 美元。 问：你看到屏幕右下角的 Bates编号了吗？ 答：是的。 问：最后四位数字是什么？ 答：1320。 问：我们可以看下一页吗？ 问：这一页的 Bates编号最后四位数字是什么。 答：1321。 问：你能读一下附在邮件里的内容吗？ 答：早上好，Max。附件是 4900号发票，余额用于完成围栏的安装。剩余的 2846.26 美元将在油漆完成 后支付。请尽早支付。非常感谢，鲍比。 问：鲍比下面写的是什么？ 答：康涅狄格州围栏和景观公司，LLC，16 Valmar Drive，新米尔福德，康涅狄格州。 问：你知道格林威治是否在康涅狄格州吗？ 答：知道。 洛夫特斯女士，我们能否展示 SM-126。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 152 / 193页 问：你能读一下这个费用的用途吗？ 答：G level.org域名用于 G Fashion。 问：我们能展示 SM-133吗？ 问：右下角的费用日期是什么？ 答：2020年 1月 30 日。 问：你能读一下中间的详细费用描述吗？ 答：多个托管 roll society.org 安全电子邮件 essr。 问：费用账户下面写的是什么？ 答：ROL，rolf。 问：你知道法治社会与 Saraca媒体集团有什么关系吗？ 答：不知道。 问：我们能展示 SM-176 吗？ 问：你看到顶部写的 Saraca 吗，先生？ 答：是的。 问：你能辨认出下面划掉的是什么吗？ 答：看起来像纽约金泉有限责任公司。 问：你知道金泉和 Saraca 之间有什么关系吗？ 答：不知道。 问：我们可以展示 SM-156 吗？ 问：这份文件的收款人是谁？ 答：巴黎爱马仕。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 153 / 193页 问：金额是多少？ 答：24000 美元。 问：文件底部的名字是什么？ 答：Max Krasner，王雁平。 问：洛夫特斯女士，你能放大收据的顶部吗？ 问：你能读一下收据顶部写的内容吗？ 答：巴黎爱马仕 HOP格林威治，289格林威治大道，康涅狄格州格林威治。 问：客户信息下面的名字是什么？ 答：王雁平。 问：你能缩小一下吗。我们可以看一下 210。 问：这份文件的收款人是谁？ 答：G Fashion媒体集团公司。 问：这份付款请求表格的金额是多少？ 答：200000 美元。 问：我们能看一下 SM-11 吗？ 问：约翰逊先生，这是 Saraca媒体公司提供给 SEC的文件之一吗？ 答：是的。 问：海曼香港机会岸上基金有限公司。你看到了吗？ 答：看到了。 问：你知道那是什么吗？ 答：不知道。洛夫特斯女士，你能展示大约第 26 页吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 154 / 193页 问：你能读一下顶部写的内容吗？ 答：海曼香港机会岸上基金有限公司，投资者资料。投资者名称 Saraca媒体集团公司。资本贡献 1亿美 元。投资者类型，实益持有人。简要说明认购人的主要财富来源。出售子公司股份。 问：洛夫特斯女士，你能回到前两页吗？ 问：根据这份文件，谁作为总裁签署了？ 答：王雁平。 问：底部请求的资本贡献总额是多少？ 答：1亿美元。 问：请求的结算日期是什么？ 答：2020年 6月 8日。 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能否展示 SM-12。 问：约翰逊先生，这是 Saraca媒体集团在回应传票时提供给 SEC的另一份文件吗？ 答：是的。 问：根据这封日期为 2020年 7月 15 日的信件，这封信是寄给谁的？ 答：余建明、Max Krasner、王雁平和艾伦·米切尔。 问：你能读一下第二段吗？ 答：作为基金的普通合伙人在履行其持续的尽职调查和证券法合规工作中，海曼要求对以下问题做出回 应：Saraca媒体集团公司投资于本集团的资本来源是什么？ 问：你知道 Saraca 是否回答了这个问题吗？ 答：在前一页上。 问：你能读一下第三个要点吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 155 / 193页 答：如果收益来自证券发行，发行文件是否披露收益的用途包括投资于本基金或任何类似的私人基金工 具？如果是，请提供披露协议的副本。 问：你知道这些是否提供了披露协议？ 答：不知道。 问：这份文件的日期是什么？ 答：2020年 7月 15 日。 问：洛夫特斯女士，你能再展示一次 SM-11 的第 24 页吗？ 问：这里的日期是什么？ 答：2020年 6月 3日。 问：所以这是在我们刚刚看的 SM-12信件之前的日期？ 答：是的。 芬克律师说：法官大人，此时政府提交一份协议。此时政府提交一份双方的协议，这是 GX Stip 19。 舒里克律师说：没有异议。 法官说：准许接纳。 （政府证物 GX Stip 19 作为证据接纳） 芬克律师说：我来读一下。美国和被告郭文贵特此协议并同意，美国证券交易委员会（SEC） 的员工将作如下证词： 1. 证券交易委员会是一个独立的联邦机构，其任务包括保护投资者、维护公平、有序和高效的 市场以及促进资本形成。 2. 根据 SEC的调查，2021年 7月 28日，Saraca媒体集团公司（Saraca）与 SEC就 SEC提 出的有关 Saraca、GTV媒体集团（GTV）和郭媒体之声公司（VOG）通过 GTV私人配售进行未注册证 券发行的民事行政指控达成和解。和解协议以书面形式记录，由王雁平代表 Saraca签署。根据和解协
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 156 / 193页 议，Saraca、GTV和 VOG向 SEC支付了与 GTV私人配售相关的 455,211,346.39 美元，其中包括 Saraca 在海曼资本管理的投资中支付的 69,713,578.06 美元，这笔钱是从Morvillo, Abramowitz, Grand, Iason & Anello, PC的托管账户转给 SEC的。截至本协议签署之日，Saraca 和 GTV共同及分别还欠 SEC31,488,392.52 美元，VOG 还欠 SEC45,324 美元。 3. SEC建立了一个公平基金，以分配收集到的钱给那些投资于 GTV股票发行和 G Coins、G Dollars发行的个人和实体。在聘请了一个管理员来管理分配过程、通知投资者并收集投资者的验证信息 后，向投资者的分配于 2022年 9月 26 日开始。通过公平基金，SEC已���全球约 4835名投资者分配了 大约 365,040,744.90 美元，包括至少 31名纽约南区的投资者。公平基金分配过程仍在进行中。 4. 作为与 SEC的同意和解的一部分，Saraca、GTV和 VOG既不承认也不否认 SEC的民事行 政指控。和解协议涉及未注册证券发行的指控，并未指控 Saraca、GTV或 VOG 有任何欺诈行为。和解 协议没有包括任何刑事行为的指控或结论。本协议可以 作为审判中的证据提交，并由双方签署，日期为 6月 21 日。 法官大人，此时根据 GX Stip 8，政府提交 GXPRO系列中的以下证物： 545, 544, 541, 539, 537, 535, 534, 533, 531, 526, 525, 523, 522, 521, 520, 508, 504, 488, 478, 477, 476, 473, 466, 467, 473, 474, 486, 489, 492, 494, 496, 498, 499, 506, 508, 509。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我能稍等一下吗？ 法官说：可以。 舒里克律师说：没有异议。 法官说：准许接纳。 （政府证物 PRO-545, PRO-544, PRO-541, PRO-539, PRO-537, PRO-535, PRO-534, PRO- 533, PRO-531, PRO-526, PRO-525, PRO-523, PRO-522, PRO-521, PRO-520, PRO-508, PRO-504, PRO-488, PRO-478, PRO-477, PRO-476, PRO-473, PRO-466, PRO-467, PRO-473, PRO-474, PRO- 486, PRO-489, PRO-492, PRO-494, PRO-496, PRO-498, PRO-499, PRO-506, PRO-508, PRO-509 作 为证据接纳） 由芬克律师继续询问： 问：约翰逊先生，你知道 Promemoria 是什么吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 157 / 193页 答：不知道。 问：我们能展示证据中的 pro466 吗？洛夫特斯女士，请展示第 20 页。如果能放大底部，请放大。 问：约翰逊先生，你看到顶部写的格拉迪斯·周吗？ 答：看到了。 问：她的电子邮件以 HCHK Tech结尾吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你不知道她是谁吗？ 答： 不知道 问：你能读一下这封电子邮件的正文吗，从"Hi, Paolo"开始。 答： 嗨，Paolo 和 Davide。希望你们俩度过了一个愉快的感恩节，并在当前情况下保持安全。自从我们 上次谈论青铜雕像以来，已经快一年了。请允许我再次自我介绍。我是郭文贵先生的助理 Gladys。我之 前使用的是 [email protected]，这是我将来要使用的新电子邮件地址。我今天写信主要是传达 一个信息。纽约有一个即将进行的项目，我们想从 Promemoria购买一些家具，包括库存项目和新设计 的项目。郭先生希望看看Davide是否能来纽约见面。他希望与 Davide 面对面讨论，让他了解项目的愿 景，并看看能实现什么。请告诉我你的想法。非常感谢。此致，Gladys·周。 问：我们可以往上滚动一点，洛夫特斯女士。这个电子邮件的日期是什么？ 答： 2021年 12月 2 日。 问：你能读一下 Dear Gladys 下面的第一句话吗？ 答： 很高兴听到郭文贵先生和你都在这个因 COVID-19而疯狂的时期平安健康。 问：这封电子邮件是谁发的？ 答： Paolo。 问：我们可以往上滚动一点，洛夫特斯女士。你能读一下 Gladys·周从“这个项目”开始的回复吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 158 / 193页 答： 这个项目在新泽西州马瓦的一座豪宅中进行。客户希望设计三个步入式衣橱。下面是三个房间的链 接，分别标注好了。 问：好的，谢谢。我们是否可以往上滚动一点，洛夫特斯女士。你看到这里 2022年 2月来自 Gladys·周 的邮件吗，就在“谢谢”下面。你能读一下吗？ 答： 鉴于这个项目的保密性，请签署附上的保密协议并返回给我。我会很快发送平面图。谢谢。 问：我们是否可以往上滚动一点，洛夫特斯女士。我们要到大约第 10 页。 问：这里写着，“嗨，Paolo，这是当前设计方案的链接”。你能读一下链接下面写的是什么吗？ 答： 厨房、影院、步入式衣橱 01 夫人。 问：下面的链接写的是什么？ 答： 衣橱 02，女儿；衣橱 03，儿子；衣橱 04，先生。 问：你能读一下下一句话吗？ 答： 客户喜欢每个房间的布局，主要需要改变的是家具。 问：下面写着，客户对当前方案的评论。你看到了吗？ 答： 是的。 问：然后写着影院，你看到了吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你能读一下第六页写的内容吗？ 答： 座位布局，他更喜欢所有六个单人椅子。 问：影院下面的标题是什么？ 答： 夫人衣橱 01。 问：你能往下滚动一下，洛夫特斯女士。夫人衣橱下面的标题是什么？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 159 / 193页 答： 女儿衣橱 02，儿子衣橱 03，先生衣橱 04。 问：我们是否可以往上滚动一下，洛夫特斯女士。你能读一下 Gladys·周写的“嗨，Paolo”下面的内容 吗？ 答： 谢谢你回复我。听起来很棒。你是否可以访问新泽西的物业，看看需要开发的所有房间，那会有帮 助。另外，这次旅行我们需要承担任何旅行费用吗？此致。 问：我们可以往上滚动一下，洛夫特斯女士。 这也是来自 Gladys·周的邮件，你能读一下“嗨，Paolo”下面的地址吗？ 答： 我正在与设计公司确认-- 问：抱歉，约翰逊先生，你能从地址的第三行开始读吗？ 答： 地址是新泽西州马瓦市 Ramapo Valley路 675号。 舒里克律师说：法官大人，我们可以再进行一次旁听吗？ 法官说：可以。 （继续在下一页） （边栏会议讨论，仅法官和双方律师在场） 舒里克律师说：法官大人，这些文件，Promemoria 文件，涉及设计师的设计。这位证人对这些 文件完全不了解。这些文件与 SEC无关，与 SEC和解无关，也与 Saraca 提交给 SEC的文件无关。而 且他只是被用来向陪审团朗读这些文件。 法官说：等一下。这些文件不是提交给 SEC的吗？ 舒里克律师说：不是。 法官说：那它们是怎么被提交的？ 芬克律师说：这些文件是根据协议提交的。 舒里克律师说：那是完全不同的问题，与 SEC无关。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 160 / 193页 法官说：如果你们同意提交，它们就被接受了，就这么简单。 舒里克律师说：当然，法官大人。我理解。我的意思是，这些文件与这位证人无关，政府特别 用这位证人来朗读这些文件。而我的理解是它们已经作为证据提交了，政府可以根据这些文件随意争 论。考虑到节约时间和提高效率的重要性，我不明白为什么这个 SEC证人要读一个装潢师的文件。他对 这些文件一无所知。 芬克律师说：我可以问证人他是否知道或参与了马瓦的物业。政府可以承认他不知情。我们实 际上是通过使用一个证人来提高效率，一箭双雕。只有几份这样的文件。这些是陪审团应该看到的文 件，政府想把它们作为其案件的一部分提交。马瓦住宅的使用是一个关键问题。我们听说了很多关于郭 先生 allegedly 打算用作秘密基地的说法。这些文件显示它不是秘密基地，而是为他的家人设计的，所以 这些文件是我们希望陪审团看到的。我们可以把一位助理律师放到证人席上来做这件事，我想我们可 以。我们认为用这个证人是高效的。我可以问一个问题来引出舒里克律师希望引出的观点。 舒里克律师说：这是一个问题。另一个问题是效率问题。政府已经得到了这些文件。我们同意 了这些文件。政府可以根据文件进行争论。我们不需要坐在这里读这些文件。 法官说：他们确实有权让一个证人读这些文件，现在只是哪个证人的问题。我们要么在这里处 理他，要么是其他人。 舒里克律师说：明白，法官大人。但是，替代方案是文件已经作为证据提交。政府可以据此结 案。这是前不久边栏会议讨论对我提出的同样问题。 芬克律师说：你有整个白皮书。 舒里克律师说：我有机会阅读它。 法官说：在你的案件中，你展示了白皮书的部分内容。你还展示了那张图表的部分内容，并让 人们从那些文件中读出内容。 舒里克律师说：是的，我是指今天早些时候的证人，总结证人，但没关系。当然，我们可以在 这里谈论效率，让 SEC证人读一堆装潢师的文件，这似乎不是最有效的事情，但我只是想指出这一点。 法官说：你还有多少这样的文件？ 芬克律师说：也许还有几份。尽管它们只是文件，但这些是非常重要的文件。 法官说：我只是想知道我们还要忍受多久。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 161 / 193页 芬克律师说：事实上，我们非常高效。我们本来打算传唤与 Gladys·周有过互动的 Paolo Sozzi。为了提高效率，我们取消了这个证人。我们认为这是一个交换，原本 Paolo Sozzi 要作证一个小 时，也许还要接受辩方的质询，而我们现在只打算阅读几份文件。我没有很多文件，可能只有三四份。 法官说：时间上呢？ 芬克律师说：针对这位证人剩余的时间吗？ 法官说：是的。 芬克律师说：大约 15分钟，最多 20分钟。 法官说：还不错，很好。 （回到公开法庭） 法官说：先生，如果你在读文件，请不要读得太快，因为我们有翻译人员需要在你阅读时进行 翻译。 由检方芬克律师继续询问： 问：约翰逊先生，SEC与新泽西州马瓦的 Ramapo路 675号有任何关系吗？ 答： 我不知道。 问：我们可以向上滚动吗？你能读一下 Gladys·周发给 Paolo 的电子邮件最后一行，开头是“我可以知 道”。 答： 我可以知道你在参观完新泽西的房子后是否有空吗？客户想在那之后在纽约办公室与你见面。 问：请往上滚动，洛夫特斯女士，可以缩小一下以便我们看到整个邮件吗？你看到“谢谢，Paolo，客户 会有空”的邮件了吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你能读一下吗？ 答： 谢谢你，Paolo。客户将在周三下午 1点后有空，因此我们可以在实地考察后直接从新泽西 675 Ramapo Valley Road前往办公室。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 162 / 193页 问：好的，谢谢。在第一页，洛夫特斯女士，你能放大顶部吗？你看到写着“Taurus Fund, LLC”吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你知道那是什么吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：我们可以调出 pro531 吗？ 问：你看到写着“这里有一些客户关于图纸的更多评论”吗？ 答： 是的。 问：第一点写的是什么？ 答： 女儿的衣橱。 问：第五点写的是什么？ 答： 夫人的衣橱和儿子的衣橱。 问：我们可以到下一页。这是 2022年 12月 1 日，星期一，Gladys·周发来的。你能读一下“客户这周不 能去市区”吗？ 答： 客户这周不能去市区。你能改为在康涅狄格州的格林威治见他吗？ 问：继续，请继续读下去。 答：地址是纽约格林威治 373 Taconic Road。请告知我周四下午 3点是否适合您。如果不合适，我们可 以调整时间。 问：好的，谢谢。我们是否可以调出 pro-536。我们可以到第三页。 问：这里写着，“嗨，Paolo。谢谢你的信息。客户想订购以下内容”，然后有一些信息。它写着请将桌子 送到以下地址。你看到了吗？ 答： 是的。 问：675 Ramapo, 337 Taconic和 3 Columbus Circle。对吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 163 / 193页 答： 是的。 问：我们可以调出 pro-477。你能读一下“嗨，Paolo”下面的句子吗？ 答： 客户希望将家庭休息室改造成一个新厨房，并希望由 Promemoria 进行设计。附件中是新厨房的平 面图和目前房间的照片。如果有任何问题，请告知我。谢谢。 问：你看到左上角写着厨房平面图 pdf 吗？ 答： 是的。 问：如果我们能调出 pro-3478。你看到右下角的气泡里，能读到那个吗？那里写着“新厨房”。在文件的 左侧，那上面写着什么？ 答： Crocker住宅，新泽西州马瓦，Crocker住宅，新泽西州马瓦。 问：我们可以调出 pro486 的第 17 页。你能读一下 Gladys·周发来的电子邮件吗？ 答： 嗨，Paolo，对于合同，你能否请移除所有物业的地址，合同将由 Promemoria 和 HCHK Property Management, Inc.签订。谢谢。 问：我们可以调出 pro-506。这是 2022年 11月 5 日，写着客户的评论。你能读一下吗？ 答： 水疗房间暂时搁置，等待进一步通知。儿子的衣橱需要更轻更暖的颜色木材的所有家具。需要房间 的吊灯设计。非常感谢。 问：我们可以调出 pro-541。你能读一下“谢谢，Paolo”下面的内容吗？ 答： 这个有缺陷的是紫色的。你可以把它送到新泽西州马瓦的位置。此致。 问：我们可以调出 534。顶部写着 RE，新泽西。你看到了吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你能读一下吗？ 答： RE，新泽西项目，更新的信息。 问：然后写着，“嗨，Paolo，我可以知道所有的设计方案是否已经准备好供客户审核了吗？”我读对了 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 164 / 193页 答： 是的。 问：我们可以调出 508。它写着，“嗨，Paolo，这是客户对影院的评论”。你能读一下关于椅子的内容 吗？ 答： 移除前排的两个椅子，并在扶手处增加储物空间，可���放手机、钥匙等。 问：天花板写的是什么？ 答： 在整个天花板上添加星星。可以使用墙上的天鹅绒作为主要材料。客户喜欢柔软的毛绒触感。 问：屏幕写的是什么？ 答： 尽可能大地利用墙面，请尽量做到最大。 问：整体氛围如何？ 答： 很好，但如果能更具未来感，像在宇宙中一样，会更好。 问：最后一个，pro-523。试试 pro-522。我们会调出 476。右下角写的是什么？ 答： Crocker住宅，新泽西州马瓦。 问：我们可以缩小一点吗？你能放大左侧的整个面板吗？中间红色的写的是什么？ 答： 夫人的衣橱。 问：你知道这位夫人是谁吗？ 答： 不知道。 芬克律师说：没有其他问题了。 交叉质询 舒里克律师说： 问：下午好，约翰逊先生。就几个问题。你知道你刚才被要求读的关于新泽西州马瓦建筑的任 何事情吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 165 / 193页 答： 不知道。 问：你知道一个叫 Promemoria 的公司吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：你知道任何关于 Crocker豪宅的事情吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：你知道任何关于该物业的装修项目吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：你有任何关于该物业用途的信息或了解吗？ 答： 没有。 问：你知道谁使用了该物业吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：你知道为什么芬克律师让你读那些你一无所知的文件吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：你刚才在直接询问中提到 SEC的使命，对吗？ 答： 是的。 问：我相信你说过 SEC调查证券欺诈，正确吗？ 答： 是的。 问：现在，SEC也调查与证券法有关但与欺诈无关的问题，这不是事实吗？ 答： 是的。 问：我们可以调出 GX Stip 19 吗？你记得芬克律师刚才读过这个协议吗？ 答： 是的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 166 / 193页 问：这如你所理解的是辩方和政府之间关于某些事实的协议，对吗？ 答： 是的。 问：我们可以看一下第 5段吗？这里写着作为与 SEC的同意和解协议的一部分，约翰逊先生，你熟悉同 意和解协议吗？ 答： 不太熟悉。 问：说得对。作为与 SEC同意和解的一部分，Saraca、GTV和 VOG既不承认也不否认 SEC的民事行 政指控。和解协议涉及关于未注册证券发行的指控，并未指控 Saraca、GTV或 VOG 有任何欺诈行为。 和解协议中不包含任何关于刑事行为的指控或结论。我读得正确吗？ 答： 是的。 舒里克律师说：谢谢，没有进一步的问题了。 芬克律师说：没有其他问题了。 法官说：你可以退席了，政府可以叫下一个证人。 （证人退席） 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。政府传唤保罗·辛顿。法官大人，我们知道卡马拉珠律师将处理 下一个证人，我们与辩方讨论后请求在下一个证人上场前休息五到十分钟。 法官说：好的。 莫里律师说：记录中说明这个休息是为了讨论与辛顿先生证词相关的协议。 法官说：所以你们现在请求休息？ 莫里律师说：不是休息一天。 法官说：不是休息一天。现在休息十分钟。 莫里律师说：是的，谢谢。 法官说：陪审团成员们，我们休息十分钟。记住，你们不允许讨论案件。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 167 / 193页 （休庭） 法官说：请带陪审员进来。 （陪审团在场） 法官说：请坐。你们可以再次传唤证人了。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。政府传唤保罗·辛顿。 （证人宣誓） 法官说：请说出你的名字并拼写出来，并对着麦克风说话。 证人说：保罗·辛顿。P-A-U-L，H-I-N-T-O-N。 法官说：好的，先生，你需要更大声地说。我需要你大声说话。 证人说：我会的。 法官说：很好。继续吧。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 保罗·辛顿， 作为政府的证人， 经过宣誓，作如下证词： 直接询问 莫里律师说： 问：下午好，辛顿先生。 答： 下午好。 问：你是否可以把麦克风直接放在你面前，那会有帮助。音响效果不好。你能描述一下你的教育背景 吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 168 / 193页 答： 我拥有英国牛津大学的本科学位和哈佛肯尼迪政府学院的硕士学位。 问：你的本科学位是什么专业的？ 答： 工程科学学位。 问：你的硕士学位是什么专业的？ 答： 公共政策学位，涵盖统计学、经济学和金融学。 问：你目前在工作吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你在哪里工作？ 答： 我在布拉特集团工作。 问：布拉特集团是什么？ 答： 布拉特集团是一家经济咨询公司，提供专家证词服务，涉及诉讼和仲裁等多种场合。 问：你在布拉特集团工作了多久？ 答： 超过十年。 问：辛顿先生，如果我称布拉特集团为布拉特，你能明白我的意思吗？ 答： 能。 问：你在布拉特之前在哪里工作？ 答： 在布拉特之前，我在另一家类似的经济咨询公司工作了 18年。 问：你在布拉特的职位是什么？ 答： 我是首席顾问。 问：作为布拉特的首席顾问，你的职责和责任是什么？ 答： 除了专业人员的发展，我还领导项目，要么我是要作证的专家，要么我支持另一位要作证的专家。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 169 / 193页 问：你自己在布拉特工作过程中进行财务分析吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你以前在财务案件中作证过吗？ 答： 作证过。 问：这些证词是否包括为辩方和原告或政府提供的证词？ 答： 是的。 问：这些证词是否包括专家证词和总结证词？ 答： 是的。 问：辛顿先生，政府曾联系布拉特集团处理这个案件，对吗？ 答： 是的。 问：大约是什么时候？ 答： 大约是在去年三月或夏天。 问：政府在这个案件中要求布拉特做什么？ 答：当时他们说他们预计会有大量的财务记录，希望我们审查和总结。 问：政府实际上是否聘请布拉特在这个案件中提供诉讼服务？ 答：是的。 问：布拉特在这个案件中提供服务的大致时间段是什么时候？ 答：我们正式开始是在去年夏天，但从今年年初开始更加密集地工作。 问：布拉特是根据与政府的合同在这个案件中工作的吗？ 答：是的。 问：布拉特在这个案件中已经或将要收取的费用大约是多少？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 170 / 193页 答：大约 200万美元。 问：这包括你今天作证前进行的分析吗？ 答：是的。 问：这也包括你今天在这里作证的费用吗？ 答：是的。 问：辛顿先生，政府在这个案件中聘请布拉特的项目工作范围是什么？ 答：最初的合同中，工作内容包括查看设备中的数据，以及审查银行记录等。 问：关注布拉特所做的一些工作，政府是否提供了某些协议和公司文件给布拉特？ 答： 是的。 问：一般来说，那些协议或文件是什么类型的？ 答： 它们是各种不同类型的文件。许多是服务合同；其他是贷款协议或投资金额的文件。 问：除了这些公司协议或文件，政府是否提供了其他类型的记录或证据给布拉特？ 答： 是的，银行记录。 问：政府在这个案件中提供给布拉特的大约有多少银行记录？ 答： 有成千上万的 pdf 和 Excel文件，代表超过 20万笔交易。 问：政府要求布拉特对这些银行记录做什么？ 答： 最初只是为了确定生产中的文件是什么，它们与哪些实体和银行账户相关。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请把标记为政府证物 Z27 的文件展示给证人。 问：辛顿先生，你认得这个证物吗？ 答： 认得。 问：你在作证前审查过它吗？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 171 / 193页 答： 审查过。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交政府证物 Z27。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议，法官大人。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Z27被接纳为证据） 莫里律师说：可以公布吗？ 由莫里律师： 问：辛顿先生，你能向陪审团描述一下政府证物 Z27 的这一页上反映的信息，特别是与布拉特在本案中 处理银行记录的工作相关的部分吗？ 答： 是的。这只是总结了我们识别的材料的数量，然后是我们处理的这些记录的子集以提取信息。 问：你在第一列中提到的“处理的账户”，在布拉特的工作中，这是什么意思？ 答： 所谓处理，是指我们需要提取每一个包含金融交易的银行文件中的相关交易细节，并将其录入 Excel表格。 问：看看这里的最后一行，辛顿先生，银行数量，本案中政府提供记录的独特银行数量大约是多少？ 答： 我们识别出了 72家不同的银行。 问：对于这 72家银行，这些银行的记录在格式上有何不同，你能向陪审团描述一下吗？ 答： 有些银行记录只是普通的银行对账单，非常类似于任何个人的银行对账单，这些通常是 pdf 文件， 通常在顶部有每月活动摘要，然后列出所有交易和余额。但也有许多其他类型的文件。另一种常见格式 是所谓的电汇记录，即银行间发生的交易，这些记录可以是详细的 pdf 文件，也可以是包含许多列数据 的电子表格，这些列描述了每笔电汇的不同特征。有些对账单中还有支票的图像，即处理和接收后的支 票。此外，还有其他杂项银行记录。 问：再次看第一列，处理的账户，布拉特在本案工作中处理了大约多少文件？ 答： 超过 2000 份文件。确切地说是 2173份。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 172 / 193页 问：看看下一个项目，不同实体的数量，这些银行记录大约涉及多少不同的实体或个人？ 答： 大约有 119 个不同的实体的银行记录。 问：这些处理的账户中的 119 个实体，代表了多少个银行账户？ 答： 有 450 个银行账户。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以看下一张幻灯片吗？ 问：辛顿先生，你能向陪审团描述一下，这张幻灯片上的类别是谁提供的吗？ 答： 政府。 问：政府是否告知或建议布拉特在每个类别中放置哪些实体？ 答： 是的，他们有。 问：这是政府做出的决定，对吗？ 答： 是的。 问：看看这里，这是识别的账户。你能解释一下识别的账户和处理的账户之间的区别吗？ 答： 是的。最初我们收到大量文件，我们需要识别这些文件是什么，哪些实体在其中提到，哪些银行， 哪些文件实际上包含金融交易信息，这是识别阶段，后来政府指定了他们希望我们处理的识别出的银行 记录。 问：阅读这张幻灯片，从法治实体类别开始，你对法治实体有任何独立理解吗？ 答： 没有。 问：有多少识别的账户属于法治实体类别？ 答： 20 个。 问：接下来是 GTV/VOG类别，你对 GTV有任何独立了解吗？ 答： 没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 173 / 193页 问：对 VOG 有任何独立了解吗？ 答： 没有。 问：有多少识别的银行账户属于政府的 GTV或 VOG类别？ 答： 我们识别了 49 个。 问：再看看农场类别，除了这个词的常见理解，你知道在本案中农场是什么意思吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：政府是否提供了这个类别，并确定了属于该类别的实体或个人？ 答： 是的。 问：在农场类别中有多少识别的银行账户？ 答： 85 个。 问：现在看看 G|CLUBS 和 Crane，首先，你对 G|CLUBS 有任何独立了解吗？ 答： 没有。 问：你对 Crane有任何独立了解吗？ 答： 没有。 问：有多少识别的银行账户属于政府的 G|CLUBS 或 Crane类别？ 答： 82 个。 问：最后，辛顿先生，喜马拉雅交易所，你知道喜马拉雅交易所是什么吗？ 答： 不知道。 问：有多少识别的银行账户属于该类别？ 答： 27 个。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 174 / 193页 莫里律师说：我们可以看下一张幻灯片吗，洛夫特斯女士。实际上，我们先回到上一张幻灯 片。 问：辛顿先生，你能解释一下布拉特从政府提供的银行记录中提取数据的过程吗？ 答： 当然。嗯，有两种不同的处理方式——一种是对于已经在电子表格中的数据，另一种是对 于以 pdf格式的文件。因此，pdf 文件需要进行光学字符识别（OCR），以便将信息字段从这些文件中复 制出来，然后使用计算机程序提取这些信息字段并将其放入电子表格中。这样，我们就有了两种——我 们有所有记录的电子表格形式，然后我们只需将每个账户的信息字段组织起来，以便在所有银行和账户 中格式一致。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请把这个撤下，并展示给证人看政府证物 Z28。 问：辛顿先生，你认得 Z28号证物吗？ 答： 认得。 问：大致来说，它反映了什么信息？ 答： 它列出了左侧所有的银行，然后在列中，显示了我们识别的不同银行账户数量，这些账户与前一张 图表中的各个类别相关。我认为这张特定的图表上还有几个其他类别，但重点在于它记录了我们识别的 所有银行账户的组成情况，这些账户被分类到政府提供的所有类别中。 问：辛顿先生，你在作证前审查过政府证物 Z28吗？ 答： 审查过。 问：你确认这张总结图表中的信息是准确的吗？ 答： 确认。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交 Z28号证物。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Z28 被接纳为证据）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 175 / 193页 莫里律师说：我们可以公布一下。 问：好的，辛顿先生，现在陪审团可以看到它了——它有点小。我们会放大各个部分。 莫里律师说：首先，洛夫特斯女士，请放大顶部部分，包括前几行以及所有列标题。 问：辛顿先生，看看这个文件，前几列反映的是我们刚才在上一张幻灯片上看到的类别，对吗？ 答： 是的，没错。 问：这些是政府定义并提供给布拉特的类别吗？ 答： 是的。 问：看看标题为 ACA Capital，汉密尔顿（余建明）的列，政府为该类别定义了什么信息？ 答： 它确定了应该归类在该类别中的特定实体，包括ACA Capital和汉密尔顿。 问：你个人认识余建明吗？ 答： 不认识。 问：你对 ACA Capital或汉密尔顿有任何独立的了解吗？ 答： 没有。 问：看看下一列，它表明家庭成员，带有星号。你看到了吗？ 答： 看到了。 问：最后一列，家族办公室，带有两个星号。你看到了吗？ 答： 看到了。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小这个，并放大页面底部左侧部分。 问：辛顿先生，为了这张总结图表的目的，政府的家庭类别是如何定义的？ 答： 它包括郭美，郭强，余建明和 Sing Ting Rong的所有账户。 问：辛顿先生，你认识这些人吗——郭美，郭强，余建明，或 Sing Ting Rong？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 176 / 193页 答： 不认识。 问：然后是政府提供的家族办公室类别，辛顿先生，这个类别包括哪些实体？ 答： 政府告诉我们包括 Lamp Capital，金泉，Hudson Diamond，Lexington Property和 Greenwich Land。 问：对这些实体，你有任何了解或认识吗？ 答： 没有。 莫里律师说：好，我们再缩小一下，洛夫特斯女士。我们是否能放大图表的上半部分。 问：我想举几个例子，辛顿先生。例如，看看美国银行，这是第二行，你是否可以为陪审团读一下，读 出识别的账户数量以及这些账户所属的相关类别。 答： 好的。我们识别了美国银行账户的记录。对于法治实体类别，有 4 个；在农场类别，有 11 个；在 GTV/VOG类别，有 4 个；家庭成员类别有 8个；总共有 27 个。 问：再举一个例子，看看 JPMC或摩根大通，读出识别的银行账户的行，这些账户属于哪些类别。 答： 好的。对于摩根大通，有 25 个农场账户；10 个 GTV/VOG账户；5 个 G|CLUBS/Crane账户；5 个 家族办公室账户；总共有 45 个不同的账户。 莫里律师说：请把这个缩小，洛夫特斯女士。我们可以现在放大底部部分，往下拉到最后。 问：再举一个例子，辛顿先生，Silvergate银行，你是否可以读一下。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可能需要向上滚动一下，让辛顿先生看到那是哪一列。 问：在 Silvergate银行的哪个类别中识别出了 27 个账户？ 答： 是 ACA Capital，汉密尔顿列中有 27 个 Silvergate银行账户。 问：看看这里的总数，辛顿先生，在这张图表中，识别出的各个类别的账户总数是多少？ 答： 422 个不同的账户。 莫里律师说：谢谢，洛夫特斯女士。我们可以把这个拿下。法官大人，此时政府希望根据双方 的协议提交各种证据。首先，洛夫特斯女士，请调出已经被接纳为证据的 Stip 8。根据 Stip 8，政府提交
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 177 / 193页 以下证据，这些证据在 B列的部分中有所反映：政府证物 GX BR300-GX BR356；GX 3200-GX 3202； GX 3210-GX 3213； GX 3214； GX 3204-GX 3207；GX BR900-GX BR931； GX2001-GX 2717； 和 GX BR1001-GX BR1031。政府根据该协议提交这些证据。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 BR300-BR356；3200-3202；3210-3213；3214；3204-3207；BR900-BR931； 2001-2717；BR1001-BR1031被接纳为证据） 莫里律师说：好。洛夫特斯女士，现在请调出 GX Stip 14。这也是双方的协议，已经被接纳。 法官大人，为了节省时间和保持大家的注意力，我将只引用该协议中提到的政府证物，并根据 协议提交它们。该协议指出，双方同意 B列中列出的政府证物是政府合法获得的，它们是列在 A列中的 实体的真实记录，它们是在或接近时间由或信息由知情人传递，它们是在日常业务过程中保存的，并且 是实体制作记录的常规做法。B列中列出的政府证物是来自银行的银行记录。根据这一协议，政府提交 B列中列出的所有政府证物。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Stip 14 的 B列接纳为证据） 莫里律师说：最后，法官大人，政府此时提交政府证物 Stip 22。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Stip 22接纳为证据） 莫里律师说：根据政府证物 Stip 22，政府提交以下附加的银行记录。 政府证物 Stip 22 是一份双方同意的协议，说明 B列中列出的政府证物是 A列中列出的实体（银 行）在日常业务过程中维护的记录。根据政府证物 Stip 22，政府提交 B列中列出的所有政府证物。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Stip 22 的 B列接纳为证据）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 178 / 193页 莫里律师说：谢谢。我们可以撤下这个，洛夫特斯女士。现在我们回到 GX Z27。让我们看一下 幻灯片 3。 莫里律师说： 问：辛顿先生，你能向陪审团描述一下这张总结图表上反映了什么信息吗？ 答： 这张图表列出了被分类为家族办公室实体的名称及每个实体的处理银行账户数量。 问：为了明确起见，处理的银行账户是指布拉特从银行记录中提取数据的账户，对吗？ 答： 是的。 问：好的。我们看一下这个。Lamp Capital, LLC有多少个处理的银行账户？ 答： 25 个。 问：Greenwich Land, LLC呢？ 答： 3个。 问：所以在政府分类的这五个家族办公室实体中，总共有多少个处理的银行账户？ 答： 52 个。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，下一张幻灯片。我们可以往上滚动一点吗？请放大以便看到完整 的总结图表。 问：辛顿先生，一般来说，这张幻灯片反映了什么信息？ 答： 这是一个类似的图表，列出了被分类为农场组的各个实体的所有处理账户。 问：这些类别是政府提供的吗？ 答： 是的。 问：这张总结图表仅列出了被列为农场实体的处理账户，对吗？ 答： 是的，仅包括我们提取数据的那些账户。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 179 / 193页 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以往下滚动一点。 问：布拉特提取数据的这些农场账户有多少个？ 答： 55 个。 问：看看第四行，这个农场实体的名称是什么？ 答： Maywind Trading, LLC。 莫里律师说：我们可以撤下这个，洛夫特斯女士。 问：辛顿先生，你提到除了银行账户，布拉特还从政府那里收到了贷款协议和其他文件，对吗？ 答： 是的。 问：政府要求布拉特对其中一些协议进行某种分析吗？ 答： 是的。 问：这包括对Maywind Trading, LLC贷款协议的总结分析吗？ 答： 是的。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请调出政府证物 Z29，只供证人查看。 问：辛顿先生，你认得 Z29 吗？ 答： 认得。 问：从高层次来看，它是什么？ 答： 这是我们为Maywind Trading, LLC 识别的所有贷款协议的第一页，在这里标记为凤凰农场。 问：你在作证前审查过这个证物吗？ 答： 审查过。 问：Z29中的信息准确吗？ 答： 准确。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 180 / 193页 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交政府证物 Z29。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Z29接纳为证据） 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以公布吗？ 莫里律师说： 问：现在陪审团可以看到这个证物了，辛顿先生，请你读一下这个证物的标题。 答： 它写着凤凰农场，括号里写着Maywind Trading LLC，贷款协议。 问：你知道凤凰农场是什么吗，辛顿先生？ 答： 不知道。 问：看看这个证物内的总结图表，最右边的列，标题为 GX的列下反映了什么信息？ 答： 那些是对应贷款协议的政府证物编号。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请集中在顶部部分。 问：辛顿先生，政府提供的材料中，你们为Maywind Trading, LLC或凤凰农场识别了多少份贷款协议？ 答： 我们识别了 686 份不同的贷款协议。 问：布拉特是否评估或分析了这些贷款协议，以确定它们是否已签署？ 答： 我们进行了评估。 问：这些 686 份贷款协议中，有多少份是由借款人或凤凰农场（Maywind Trading LLC）签署 的？ 答： 没有一份是由借款人签署的。 问：这些 686 份贷款协议中，有多少份是由贷方或这些协议的对方签署的？
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 181 / 193页 答： 全部都签署了。 莫里律师说：好的。请把这个缩小。我只想看看一两个例子。洛夫特斯女士，请向下滚动到— —谢谢。实际上，再往下一页。完美。 问：看看 2020年 12月 3日的一个条目，辛顿先生，你看到总结图表中金额列为“不适用”了吗？ 答： 有些条目确实写着 NA，这是正确的。 莫里律师说：我们可以调出那个来源文件，洛夫特斯女士。这是 2020年 12月 3日。政府证物 2502，已经接纳为证据。我们可以集中在顶部部分，洛夫特斯女士。 问：辛顿先生，这份贷款协议中列出的借款人是谁？ 答： 它写着凤凰农场，括号内写着Maywind Trading, LLC。 问：谁是列出的贷方？ 答： 贷方列的是蔡雁婷。请原谅我的发音。 问：有一个叫做贷方凤凰农场代码的字段。你看到了吗？ 答： 看到了。 问：那里反映了什么信息？ 答： 只是一个字母数字代码。 问：你能读一下这个代码吗？ 答： FH1-1560。 问：这份贷款协议的日期是什么？ 答： 日期是 2020年 12月 3日。 问：在第 1条条款下，你能读一下(a)贷款用途吗？ 答： 它写着，“本协议下提供的贷款资金用于借款人的一般营运资金用途。”
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 182 / 193页 问：看看(b)贷款金额，这份协议上反映的贷款金额是多少？ 答： 这句话中有一个小空格，在这份协议中是空的。 问：在 1(c)中的利率是多少？ 答： 每年 3%。 问：何时支付？ 答： 在最终到期日全额支付。 问：然后是(d)最终到期日，那里反映了什么？ 答： “最终到期日是生效日期后 36 个月。” 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请把这个缩小。我们往下翻几页。 问：页面底部有一些签名，辛顿先生。你看到了吗？ 答： 我看到了在每页底部有一些打字的三个字母，似乎是——它们的前两个字母与贷方的名字和姓氏相 匹配。 莫里律师说：好的。继续往下翻几页，洛夫特斯女士。 问：在这页上，辛顿先生，这份文件看起来签字了吗？ 答： 是的，在协议的签名区域，有一些中文字符。 问：那是哪一方的签名？ 答： 是贷方蔡雁婷的签名。 问：在与凤凰农场（Maywind Trading, LLC）相关的签名线上有签名吗？ 答： 没有。那条线是空的。 问：辛顿先生，这份协议尽管没有列出贷款金额，却仍然签署了，对吗？ 答： 对的。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 183 / 193页 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们回到政府证物 Z29。谢谢。我们可以到最后一页吗？ 问：辛顿先生，对于这张总结图表中反映的 686 份凤凰农场贷款协议，总的贷款金额是多少？ 答： 这些协议的贷款总额为 23,158,757 美元。 莫里律师说：谢谢，洛夫特斯女士。我们可以撤下这个。 问：辛顿先生，自政府聘请布拉特处理此案以来，政府是否为布拉特提供了分析指导？ 答： 是的。 问：这是否包括电话会议和会议讨论布拉特的发现，并提供例如信息类别以让布拉特对某些记录进行分 类？ 答： 是的。 问：政府是否向布拉特提供了修改意见或其他反馈，以便布拉特调整其分析和发现？ 答： 是的。 问：布拉特的工作成果，包括我们今天看到的展示图表， 是否反映了政府的某些反馈和指示？ 答： 是的。 问：辛顿先生，除了布拉特在本案中进行的分析、你今天的证词和为此证词的准备之外，你还有其他参 与本案的情况吗？ 答： 有的。 问：除了布拉特进行的分析、你今天的证词和为此证词的准备之外，你在本案中还有哪些参与？ 答： 可以重复一下问题吗？ 问：当然。除了布拉特进行的分析、你今天的证词和为此证词的准备之外，你在本案中还有哪些参与？ 答： 这些都是我的主要工作部分。我监督员工进行分析，准备作证，并在今天作证。这就是我们参与的 范围。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 184 / 193页 问：辛顿先生，你是否审查了政府在本案中收集的所有证据，还是仅审查了政府提供给布拉特的记录和 证据？ 答： 仅审查了提供给布拉特的文件。 问：布拉特在确定政府将提供哪些证据或记录方面是否有任何角色？ 答： 没有。 问：你提到从政府提供的银行记录中提取数据的过程。布拉特是如何对这些提取的数据进行分类或编 目？ 答： 我们使用了之前讨论的分类方法，不仅识别银行账户，还识别基于相关实体的个别交易，并将这些 交易数据从不同来源组织到一个单一数据库中，以便一起查看。 问：你在这个包含提取的银行记录数据的数据库中扮演了什么角色？ 答： 我设计了数据库结构，并监督和指导工作来填充它。 问：从高层次上来说，你能描述一下这个数据库是如何运作的吗？ 答： 它比仅保存在电子表格中更安全地组织了数百个不同的银行账户记录集，使我们能够以相同的格式 组织所有不同银行的交易记录，并捕捉政府给我们的分类，并将其与每笔交易关联起来，同时还提供参 考编号，告诉我们这些数据来自哪个文件。 问：当你说反映文件的参考编号时，这些文件是否链接到本案中的政府识别证据？ 答：是的，这意味着数据库中的每笔交易（总数超过 20万笔）都可以链接回一个来源文件，该文件在本 案中有一个 GX编号。 问：在准备今天的证词时，辛顿先生，你是否审查并验证了我们今天看到的各种总结图表的准确性？ 答： 是的。 问：你是否通过查看布拉特维护的银行记录数据库来做到这一点？ 答： 是的。实际上，每个图表中显示的个别交易都是从数据库中提取的，然后我能够识别数据来源的政 府证物，并查看底层的来源文件以验证数据。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 185 / 193页 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请展示标记为政府证物 Z26 的文件。仅供证人查看。我们可以翻 几页。 问：辛顿先生，你认得 Z26 吗？ 答： 认得。 问：辛顿先生，你协助准备了政府证物 Z26 吗？ 答： 是的。 问：Z26 是否包含布拉特在本案中审查的某些银行记录的摘要？ 答： 是的，审查和处理。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请翻到最后一页。 问：看看这个展示的最后一页，这反映了支持 Z26中数据的来源文件的政府证物吗？ 答： 是的。 问：你审查了 Z26中的信息和这一页上引用的来源文件吗，辛顿先生？ 答： 审查了。 问：你确认信息准确吗？ 答： 确认。 莫里律师说：法官大人，政府提交政府证物 Z26。 卡马拉珠律师说：没有异议。 法官说：批准。 （政府证物 Z26接纳为证据） 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，请展示第一页，并向陪审团展示。 莫里律师说：
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 186 / 193页 问：辛顿先生，政府证物 Z26 的标题是什么？ 答： 银行记录摘要。 莫里律师说：很好。 下一张幻灯片。 问：辛顿先生，这张图表上一般反映了什么信息？ 答： 这是将数据库中所有交易的价值汇总的结果，这包括我们处理并根据政府提供的分类方法分类的所 有交易，分类为 GTV、农场、G|CLUBS 和喜马拉雅。 问：图表顶部写着资金来源。政府是否向布拉特提供了如何以及是否将某些交易分类为资金来源的指 示？ 答： 是的。 问：以 G|CLUBS 为例，政府向布拉特提供了哪些关于应标记或分类为流入 G|CLUBS 的资金来源的交易 类型的指示？ 答： 这些是来自个人的交易，而不是实体的，并且这些个人与图表上列出的任何实体没有关联。 问：政府向布拉特提供了哪些关于应包含在 G|CLUBS资金来源中的交易金额的指示？ 答： 对于某些账户，我们观察到有 10,000 美元、20,000 美元、30,000 美元、40,000 美元和 50,000 美 元的整金额交易，政府指示我们将这些金额的交易，正负 100 美元，分类为资金来源。 问：政府是否向你解释为什么指示布拉特将这些金额的交易标记为 G|CLUBS 的资金来源？ 答： 没有。 问：你是否有任何独立理解，知道为什么政府给出这个指示？ 答： 没有。 问：布拉特在这个总结分析中是否有任何偏离政府资金来源定义的自由裁量权？ 答： 没有。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 187 / 193页 问：读一下这里的金额，这个总结展示中流入政府 GTV或 VOG分类的资金来源的总金额是多少？ 答： 4.11亿美元。 问：农场类别的金额是多少？ 答： 1.1亿美元。 问：流入 G|CLUBS 的金额是多少？ 答： 2.4亿美元。 问：最后，流入喜马拉雅交易所的金额是多少？ 答： 5.17亿美元。 问：综合总金额是多少？ 答： 13 亿美元。 莫里律师说：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以看下一张幻灯片。 问：看看顶部，辛顿先生，这张幻灯片的标题是什么？ 答： 标题是 GTV/VOG：概述。 问：这是政府为布拉特定义的类别之一吗？ 答： 是的。 问：看看这里的资金来源，有三个实体列在幻灯片的底部。你看到了吗？ 答： 看到了。 问：在这些实体下，有括号和一些字母和数字。这些反映了什么信息？ 答： 这些数字和字母代表特定的银行账户。 问：那些字母反映了什么银行账户信息？ 答：那些字母只是银行名称的缩写。例如，BOA代表美国银行（Bank of America）。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 188 / 193页 问：幻灯片中列出的这些不同银行账户的数字是什么，它们与相关账户号码的哪一部分有关？ 答：那些是银行账户号码的最后四位数字。 问：看看这个概述幻灯片，从资金来源流入到 Voice of Guo Media, Inc.的资金有多少，从 2020年 4月 20 日到 2020年 10月 13日之间？ 答：有 7290万美元流入这张图表上的美国银行和富国银行账户——Voice of Guo Media账户。 问：中间部分，流入到 Saraca Media Group, Inc.名下的两个摩根大通账户的金额是多少？ 答：2.869亿美元。 问：右边，流入到 GTV Media Group, Inc.名下的第一资本和摩根大通银行账户的金额是多少？ 答：2960万美元。 问：这些 2960万美元在什么时间段内流入 GTV Media Group, Inc.的银行账户？ 答：在 2020年 5月 11 日到 2020年 6月 12 日之间，这些金额流入了图表中显示的两个银行账户。 莫里律师说：好的。洛夫特斯女士，下一张幻灯片。 问：辛顿先生，这张幻灯片的标题是什么？ 答：这张幻灯片的标题是 GTV/VOG：选择流动。 问：一般来说，从高层次来看，这张总结图表或幻灯片反映了什么？ 答：它显示了特定银行账户之间在某些时间段内资金流动的总金额。 问：辛顿先生，谁选择了要包含在这张总结流动幻灯片上的银行账户？ 答：政府。 问：我们来看几个例子。看左上角的第二个箭头，从资金来源到 Voice of Guo Media, Inc.在富国银行账 户的资金金额是多少？ 答：4630万美元。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 189 / 193页 问：然后看这个账户的下一个选择流动，从这个账户有 1500万美元的本票流向哪里？ 答：从富国银行到摩根大通银行的 Saraca Media Group账户。 问：从摩根大通账户尾号 5601 的那个账户，我们看到有 1.255亿美元的资金流向哪里？ 答：到 Saraca Media Group在摩根大通的 2038账户。 问：在什么时间段内？ 答：从 6月 3日到 6月 10 日。 问：哪一年？ 答：2020年。 问：然后看从那个 Saraca Media Group, Inc.账户（摩根大通 2038）的流出资金。首先，左边，2020年 6月 5 日，我们看到有什么？ 答：2020年 6月 5 日有 1亿美元的转账到海曼香港机会基金。 问：辛顿先生，你知道海曼香港机会基金是什么吗？ 答：我不知道。 问：好的。然后看看 2020年 6月 9 日从摩根大通 2038账户流出的另一个金额。那天的金额是多少？ 答：2020年 6月 9 日是 3800万美元。 问：现在看幻灯片中间的部分，辛顿先生，简要地说，你能跟随资金来源，直接流入 Saraca Media摩根 大通账户尾号 5601，然后流入花旗银行 GTV Media账户尾号 6691 的过程吗？ 答：是的。从 2019年 2月 22 日开始，在接下来的一年半左右的时间里，有 2.759亿美元的资金从资金 来源（如定义所示）流入 Saraca Media Group的摩根大通账户尾号 5601。然后在 2020年 6月 3日， 有 2亿美元从那个 Saraca Media Group账户转入 GTV Media Group在花旗银行的账户 6691。 问：为了明确，辛顿先生，那次从摩根大通 Saraca账户转入花旗银行 GTV账户的 2000万美元交易是 哪一年发生的？ 答：2020年。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 190 / 193页 问：我们可以看下一张幻灯片——实际上，请稍等一下。 看右下角的名字，辛顿先生，你看到最右下角的框中有一个公司名称和 PNC吗？ 答：看到了。 问：那个名字是什么？ 答：Lawall & Mitchell。 问：你知道 Lawall & Mitchell是什么吗？ 答：我知道那是一家律师事务所。 法官说：好。我们需要停下来了，因为现在是 5点钟了。陪审团成员们，不要在自己之间或与 任何人讨论此案。不要让任何人在你们面前讨论此案。不要阅读、观看或收听与本次审判有关的任何内 容。祝你们晚上愉快。 （陪审团不在场） 法官说：先生，你可以退庭了。 证人说：好的，谢谢。 法官说：不要讨论你的证词。 证人说：我不会的。 （证人离开） 法官说：你们可以坐下。在我们休息之前还有什么要说的吗？ 卡马拉珠律师说：辩方没有了，法官大人。 芬克律师说：政府这边只是想更新一下日程安排。在辛顿先生之后，政府认为还剩下两位证 人。在这两位证人之后，政府想播放一些视频或展示一些陪审团尚未看到但已经作为证据的文件，我只 是想确认一下在没有证人在场的情况下是否可以？ 法官说：如果它们是证据，那没问题。
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 191 / 193页 芬克律师说：好的，我们会计划这样做。只是为了让法庭和辩方律师知道，在辛顿先生之后， 大约还有 30到 45分钟的直接询问时间，剩下的两位证人的直接询问时间，一位可能稍多于一个小时， 最后一位证人大约 90分钟，这取决于技术进展的速度。主要是手机提取、短信之类的内容。这就是政府 在本案中的进展情况。我只是想让法庭知道这一点。所以我们预计明天会结束，假设反方询问不太多。 除此之外，法官大人，政府只是想询问 7月 8日那一周的情况。根据现在的理解，我们在 7月 2 日和 3日全天开庭，7月 8日那一周，如果事情按辩方预测的进展并且政府也希望这样的话，我认为我 们将进行陪审团的陈述和审议。法官是否计划在陈述和审议期间全天开庭？换句话说——对不起。我有 点累。7月 8日那一周也是从 9点到 5点的全天吗？ 法官说：在总结陈述和审议期间，我们会全天开庭。 芬克律师说：好的，这很有帮助。谢谢，法官大人。 法官说：祝大家晚上愉快。 卡马拉珠律师说：您也一样，法官大人。 莫里律师说：谢谢，法官大人。 （休庭到 2024年 6月 26 日上午 9:00）
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 192 / 193页 审问索引 审问： 道格拉斯· 斯卡尔卡 - 由 Fergenson 律师直接询问 4075 页 - 由 Kamaraju 律师交叉询问 4092 页 - 由 Fergenson 律师再次直接询问 4148页 - 由 Kamaraju 律师再次交叉询问 4163页 - 由 Fergenson 律师再次直接询问 4165 页 - 由 Kamaraju 律师再次交叉询问 4165 页 欧文·弗利 - 由Murray律师直接询问 4166 页 - 由舒里克律师交叉询问 4184 页 丹尼尔·科普尔 - 由Murray律师直接询问 4210 页 - 由 Shroff 律师交叉询问 4236 页 - 由Murray律师再次直接询问 4255 页 - 由 Shroff 律师再次交叉询问 4258页 史蒂芬·约翰逊 - 由芬克律师直接询问 4265 页 - 由舒里克律师交叉询问 4297 页 保罗·辛顿 - 由Murray律师直接询问 4301 页
【中文翻译 仅供参考】 O6PBGUO1 2024-6-25庭审记录 第 193 / 193页 政府证物 证物编号 收到 - 1628, 1630, 1631, 1632, 1634, 1636, 4169 页 - 1637, 1639, 1643, 1644 和 1646 - SM-11, SM-12, SM-17, SM-18, SM-19, 4272 页 - SM-21, SM-73, SM-96, SM-126, SM-127, SM-129, SM-130, SM-133, SM-147, SM-149, SM-151, SM- 155, SM-156, SM-159, SM-170, SM-176, SM-178, SM-181, SM-210, SM-217, SM-218, SM-224, SM- 226, SM-235, SM-252, SM-277, SM-283, SM-296至 SM-299 - [证物] * [接收] 4284 页 - BR300-BR356; 3200-3202; 3210-3213; 4316 页 - 3214; 3204-3207; BR900-BR931; 2001-2717; BR1001-BR1031 - Stip 14 的 B 栏 4317 页 - Stip 22 的 B 栏 4318页 - Z-13 4170 页 - GX Stip 19 4282 页 - Stip 22 4317 页 证物 - Z26 4306 页 - Z27 4312 页 - Z28 4329 页 - Z29 4321 页 - 3450 4216 页 被告证物 证物编号 收到 - 7006 4155 页 - 70777 4251 页
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